Wal-Mart workers plan Black Friday walkout

[BigBadBrian]

Wal-Mart workers plan Black Friday walkout

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -
A group of Wal-Mart workers are planning to stage a walkout next week on Black Friday, arguably the biggest holiday shopping day for the world's largest retail store.

The walkout builds on an October strike that started at a Wal-Mart in Los Angeles and spread to stores in 12 other cities. More than 100 workers joined in the October actions.

One of the workers who plans to join next week's walkout is William Fletcher, who works at a Wal-Mart in Duarte, Calif.

Fletcher, who also participated in the October strikes, claims Wal-Mart cut his hours after he asked to move from the receiving department to another division because of a knee injury. He has since switched departments.

"I kept asking myself, 'when is the retaliation for speaking our mind and acting on our rights going to stop?' " he said. Wal-Mart did not have an immediate comment in response to Fletcher's claim.

The union-backed groups OUR Walmart and Making Change at Wal-Mart, and a watchdog group Corporate Action Network, are calling on the nation's largest employer to end what they call retaliation against employees who speak out for better pay, fair schedules and affordable health care.

On Black Friday, the organizations expect 1,000 protests, both at stores and online.

A Wal-Mart spokeswoman said the number of workers who are raising concerns is very small and don't represent the views of the vast majority of its workforce of 1.3 million.

But labor experts say that even a small number of workers could make an impact.

"Even if there aren't that many people, it could have an effect, because their campaign in front of stores could discourage shoppers," said Ken Margolies, senior associate at the Worker Institute a Cornell University.

The strike could have an even greater impact if workers from its supply centers participate, according to Margolies. He said it could impede distribution of merchandise on what is usually the busiest day of the year.

Organizers have planned a social medial blitz, mobilizing workers through Facebook pages, a YouTube video, Twitter and Tumblr. They're also using online platforms to collect donations to sponsor striking workers. So far, the campaign has raised more than $22,200.

Wal-Mart workers have been battling with management over pay, benefits and their ability to speak up for years, experts say.

According to Anthony Bianco, author of Wal-Mart: The Bully of Bentonville, butchers at a Wal-Mart supercenter in Jacksonville, Texas, voted to form a union in 2000 -- the first time employees had done so. But soon after that, Wal-Mart eliminated butcher departments in its stores across the country, he said. It has been reported that Wal-Mart said it got rid of its meat department as a cost cutting measure.

A similar thing happened when workers at a Quebec store attempted to unionize in 2005, Bianco said. Wal-Mart closed that store a few months after that. The company said at the time that its decision was prompted by the union wanting to change how the store operated.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/money/Wal-Mart-workers-plan-Black-Friday-walkout/-/1637116/17426674/-/3di2iw/-/index.html

[BigBadBrian]

They certainly have the right to strike if they wish, though I wouldn't think that is too smart of an idea, not in this economy.

It takes what, a day or two to train the average Walmart worker?

I can see a whole bunch of people getting fired and others getting hired.

[Kristy]

They certainly have the right to strike if they wish, though I wouldn't think that is too smart of an idea, not in this economy.

It takes what, a day or two to train the average Walmart worker?

I can see a whole bunch of people getting fired and others getting hired.

Right you are again, asshole. Tell me, how long does it take for the average Wal-Mart worker to form a labor union? Or how about a decent wage with health care benefits?

[ZahZoo]

Time isn't a factor in unionizing Wal-Mart employees... they have to organize and gain enough support within to qualify for a vote.

I don't get the issue with a decent wage and benefit argument. It's a retail sales outlet... do people who work at K-Mart, Target, Dollar General, Macy's, etc... make significantly more money or get benefits? No.

Most of the jobs at these places are low skill, non-technical, minimum wage or slightly above across the whole market. The only difference with Wal-Mart is they have more stores and thus more employees. Should shelf stockers, cart wranglers, and cash register operators be compensated $40-50k in salary plus benefits? These are at best a $15-20K a year profession. Better suited to high school/college kids or the non-skilled labor force.

[ELVIS]

And why is this thread here again ??

[ZahZoo]

Try to think and operate as a member rather than a Mod... it will help improve the experience...

[ELVIS]

The Experience are dead...

[Kristy]

Time isn't a factor in unionizing Wal-Mart employees... they have to organize and gain enough support within to qualify for a vote.

I don't get the issue with a decent wage and benefit argument. It's a retail sales outlet... do people who work at K-Mart, Target, Dollar General, Macy's, etc... make significantly more money or get benefits? No.

Most of the jobs at these places are low skill, non-technical, minimum wage or slightly above across the whole market. The only difference with Wal-Mart is they have more stores and thus more employees. Should shelf stockers, cart wranglers, and cash register operators be compensated $40-50k in salary plus benefits? These are at best a $15-20K a year profession. Better suited to high school/college kids or the non-skilled labor force.

And what world do you live in again?

[ZahZoo]

And what world do you live in again?

I live in a world where non-educated, unskilled workers stock shelves in Wal-Marts and make about around $8-10 an hour. Then if you move into skilled positions such as IT, logisitcs, procurement, transportation and facilities jobs... Wal-Mart pays competitively within US corporate ranges with benefits.

What's life like on your planet?

[Nickdfresh]

Some of the original "unskilled" Wal-Mart workers such as cashiers in the South are multimillionaires due to stock options they were given as part of their job benefits. This of course was stopped by Sam Walton's greedy cunt children...

[BigBadBrian]

Some of the original "unskilled" Wal-Mart workers such as cashiers in the South are multimillionaires due to stock options they were given as part of their job benefits. This of course was stopped by Sam Walton's greedy cunt children...

Everyone is greedy to an extent, Nick. It's human nature. Put some low-life homeless ghetto dude in a multi-millionaire position and after awhile he won't know where he came from or who he knew. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Everyone is greedy to an extent, Nick. It's human nature. Put some low-life homeless ghetto dude in a multi-millionaire position and after awhile he won't know where he came from or who he knew. :gulp:

Greedy like children who would eat themselves to death if no one was around to monitor them. One has to wonder how much money these trust-fund kiddies need? And how their greedy business model of pinching companies to get the lowest price, then not paying their workforce real wages, is sustainable. Wal-Mart lives off the middles classes, then destroys the middle classes with their wage suppressing business model...

[BigBadBrian]

Wal-Mart lives off the middles classes, then destroys the middle classes with their wage suppressing business model...

You can't blame Wal-Mart. We, the consumers, let it happen. People don't know how to shop or know a better deal when they see one. For example, Wal-Mart carries very shitty kitchen supplies: pots, pans, etc. Just down the street is Bed, Bath, and Beyond who sells the good stuff: All-Clad, Calphalon, Kitchen-Aid, Cuisinart, etc. for 4 to 5 times as much...yet that good stuff will last 20 times longer, if not a lifetime. Yet people go into Wal-Mart and buy a shitty new 12" skillet every YEAR when they could have bought one that lasted a lifetime. Go figure.

[Nickdfresh]

You can't blame Wal-Mart. We, the consumers, let it happen. People don't know how to shop or know a better deal when they see one. For example, Wal-Mart carries very shitty kitchen supplies: pots, pans, etc. Just down the street is Bed, Bath, and Beyond who sells the good stuff: All-Clad, Calphalon, Kitchen-Aid, Cuisinart, etc. for 4 to 5 times as much...yet that good stuff will last 20 times longer, if not a lifetime. Yet people go into Wal-Mart and buy a shitty new 12" skillet every YEAR when they could have bought one that lasted a lifetime. Go figure.

We can blame the ignorant unwashed masses, the same ones that vote for Republican candidates against their own interests...

I occasionally go to Wal-Mart for automotive stuff, but even that's wearing thin. Give me Target any day over the drooling mob of douche-stains crowding the isles at Wal-Mart. And I have one of the largest, most state-of-the-art new Wal-Marts near me and it's still horrible and filled with mostly crap...

[ELVIS]

Just down the street is Bed, Bath, and Beyond who sells the good stuff.

LMAO !!













































I gotta laugh at that again...



























































LMAO !!


:biggrin:

[BigBadBrian]

We can blame the ignorant unwashed masses, the same ones that vote for Republican candidates against their own interests...

I occasionally go to Wal-Mart for automotive stuff, but even that's wearing thin. Give me Target any day over the drooling mob of douche-stains crowding the isles at Wal-Mart. And I have one of the largest, most state-of-the-art new Wal-Marts near me and it's still horrible and filled with mostly crap...

One of the Wal-mart's near me is really nice...clean, spacious, and the groceries are the lowest price in town. The other one near me....yuck!

[Nickdfresh]

Wal-Mart had a store near the local mall that was horrid and way too gross (and small) to put food stuffs in. So they closed that one down and built a new one both massive and state of the art. But each one seems to have the isles stuffed with shit and subtle psychological ques that turns even the nicest person into a complete asshole. Their market is okay, but I'll pay a little more to go to a Wegmans, which seem to be the best supermarkets on earth. They're well run, have a union, and are routinely voted one of the best places to work even by part time/short term menial laborers and everything is upscale. I'll pay a couple bucks more for that! For cheapie groceries, or to get national brands like Nathan's Hotdogs not available in local supermarkets I'll hit the Target...

They have Wegmans in some parts of Virginia BTW, once you go Wegmans you'll never go back...

[ELVIS]

Ingles in Nortn Carolina is a really good Supermarket chain...

[Sensible Shoes]

Go Wegmans! One in Boston now. They make me homesick.

[Kristy]

I live in a world where non-educated, unskilled workers stock shelves in Wal-Marts and make about around $8-10 an hour. Then if you move into skilled positions such as IT, logisitcs, procurement, transportation and facilities jobs... Wal-Mart pays competitively within US corporate ranges with benefits.

What's life like on your planet?

A world where EVERY person who happens to have the misfortune of working at Wal-Mart is NOT an "uneducated, unskilled so-and-so..." I'm sure you'll probably find a person or two there with a Master's in something or in grad school selling you all sorts of Chinese made junk for your humble abode.

By the way, there are no blankets that cover everything on my planet.

[Nitro Express]

Go Wegmans! One in Boston now. They make me homesick.

I used to buy my groceries there when I lived in upstate New York. They seemed like well managed stores.

[ZahZoo]

A world where EVERY person who happens to have the misfortune of working at Wal-Mart is NOT an "uneducated, unskilled so-and-so..." I'm sure you'll probably find a person or two there with a Master's in something or in grad school selling you all sorts of Chinese made junk for your humble abode.

By the way, there are no blankets that cover everything on my planet.

You make it sound like the people who willingly walked into their local Wal-Mart, applied for a job and were hired... were somehow forced or duped into some sort of abuse induced employment nightmare.

I'm sure there are well educated, skilled people who chose to seek and accept employment at Wal-Mart for whatever reason or necessity. But that doesn't change the fact that the actual job is on the lower end of the salary and required skill scale in comparison to the over-all job market in the US.

What products and where they are manufactured that Wal-Mart chooses to sell has no stake in this discussion. People take a job there for a paycheck. If they don't know that they have accepted employment at the world's largest retailer focused on low cost and large market share... then who's fault is that. They aren't going to work at google or facebook with big salaries and top tier benefits... they are going to work at the equivalent of any grocery, convenience and/or retail store in business. Hours, salaries and working conditions are all in the same range...

As I stated previously... I don't get what the issues are other than labor unions wanting a huge piece of the Wal-Mart pie. That won't help the employees nor the consumers who shop there.

[Nickdfresh]

You make it sound like the people who willingly walked into their local Wal-Mart, applied for a job and were hired... were somehow forced or duped into some sort of abuse induced employment nightmare.

I'm sure there are well educated, skilled people who chose to seek and accept employment at Wal-Mart for whatever reason or necessity. But that doesn't change the fact that the actual job is on the lower end of the salary and required skill scale in comparison to the over-all job market in the US.

What products and where they are manufactured that Wal-Mart chooses to sell has no stake in this discussion. People take a job there for a paycheck. If they don't know that they have accepted employment at the world's largest retailer focused on low cost and large market share... then who's fault is that. They aren't going to work at google or facebook with big salaries and top tier benefits... they are going to work at the equivalent of any grocery, convenience and/or retail store in business. Hours, salaries and working conditions are all in the same range...

As I stated previously... I don't get what the issues are other than labor unions wanting a huge piece of the Wal-Mart pie. That won't help the employees nor the consumers who shop there.

There's a lot of college kids that work there. They usually don't last though...

[Kristy]

You make it sound like the people who willingly walked into their local Wal-Mart, applied for a job and were hired... were somehow forced or duped into some sort of abuse induced employment nightmare.

I'm going to go all BigBadTurd here and copy and paste a short segment:

"One way the company is said to target workers is with wage caps. According a new company policy, workers reaching their position's maximum wage will not receive annual wage increases - and thus have their real earnings eaten by inflation - unless they are promoted to new positions. Although executives maintain that this policy is designed to encourage workers to take on more responsibilities, many workers assert that it's simply designed to irk long-term employees and encourage them to quit. Given that workers can remain toiling in the same low wage positions if better positions do not open up, it would seem the latter is closer to the truth.


Another new Wal-Mart policy, which many employees also believe is designed to harass full-time and experienced workers, allows managers to demand increased employee availability. Under the new policy, employees must accept the possibility of working any and all shifts or, according to some Wal-Mart workers, face drastic cuts in their work hours. Sally Wright, once a greeter in an Oklahoma store, saw her hours cut from 32 to eight per week when she refused to change her availability. Her story has been repeated almost exactly by employees from Washington, West Virginia and countless other parts of the country."

Link here:
http://www.dailycampus.com/2.7438/employee-abuse-at-wal-mart-intolerable-1.1059560#.UKuodWfhe7w





I'm sure there are well educated, skilled people who chose to seek and accept employment at Wal-Mart for whatever reason or necessity. But that doesn't change the fact that the actual job is on the lower end of the salary and required skill scale in comparison to the over-all job market in the US.

You make it sound as if EVERY position at Wal-Mart is nothing more than a low-end, low-wage one. I knew a girl in college who ended up getting a business degree doing accounting/payroll work for them at their headquarters in Benton. They treated her like absolute shit, too. Crazy hours, not much in way of health care benefits or advancement. And again, you're blanketing the job market itself. Workers at Target, Kohl's etc all are not treated this way simply based upon job skill(s).



What products and where they are manufactured that Wal-Mart chooses to sell has no stake in this discussion. People take a job there for a paycheck. If they don't know that they have accepted employment at the world's largest retailer focused on low cost and large market share... then who's fault is that. They aren't going to work at google or facebook with big salaries and top tier benefits... they are going to work at the equivalent of any grocery, convenience and/or retail store in business. Hours, salaries and working conditions are all in the same range...

Yes it does. And people don't take the job simply for a paycheck but to survive. We all have to eat, right? Many of the people Wal-Fart hires are not the uneducated or the poor but senior citizens on a fix ed income who tolerate the abuse Wal-Mart dishes out for their rent and heat. And you're wrong about the equality in pay. They are not in the same range. Speaking of Google, look up what a worker makes at a Korger grocery store after two years of work (including benefits) and what Wal-Mart delivers - I think all Wal-Mart gives is no charge on the uniform.


As I stated previously... I don't get what the issues are other than labor unions wanting a huge piece of the Wal-Mart pie. That won't help the employees nor the consumers who shop there.

So whats wrong with that? The consumers who are that stupid and gullible to shop at Wal-Mart don't care about labor unionizing. Isn't free enterprise what American was once all about?

[FORD]

Don't go to WalFart.... don't go anywhere at all on Friday. Just stay home and eat a leftover turkey sandwich...

[BigBadBrian]

"One way the company is said to target workers is with wage caps. According a new company policy, workers reaching their position's maximum wage will not receive annual wage increases - and thus have their real earnings eaten by inflation - unless they are promoted to new positions.

Sounds reasonable. How much can you pay a stock-boy anyway?



Another new Wal-Mart policy, which many employees also believe is designed to harass full-time and experienced workers, allows managers to demand increased employee availability. Under the new policy, employees must accept the possibility of working any and all shifts or, according to some Wal-Mart workers, face drastic cuts in their work hours. Sally Wright, once a greeter in an Oklahoma store, saw her hours cut from 32 to eight per week when she refused to change her availability.

Sounds reasonable. Requesting hours when there is low demand for employees or when they are not needed as much has consequences. If you don't want to work on Saturday or Sunday, someone else will.

[Nickdfresh]

...

Sounds reasonable. Requesting hours when there is low demand for employees or when they are not needed as much has consequences. If you don't want to work on Saturday or Sunday, someone else will.

Have you ever shopped at a Wal-Mart where they have like two out of twenty-five registers open and there are long lines? It's pretty fucking frustrating. They most certainly aim for the low side of staffing...

[Kristy]

Sounds reasonable. How much can you pay a stock-boy anyway?

Apparently not enough, you asshole. Did you know that about 80% of all Wal-Mart employees are on food stamps! On no, right! Until you realize it's Wal-Mart's upper management who provided them the forms to fill out in order to receive them.

[ZahZoo]

I don't know where you base your opinion, Kristy... clearly it's not business related as you don't seem to understand the simple dynamics of Wal-Mart's labor force and the competitive retail industry in general.

I'm sure there are many instances of crappy management activities that go on in Wal-Marts across the country. It may seem huge but you have to contrast that with their relative size compared with other employers. Of course... you don't hear of any of the good things that go on because they don't make dramatic headlines and feed bullshit gossip circles.

There's also multiple facets of Wal-Mart... such as local stores that serve small towns and rural areas where it's the only major big box store in a 40 miles radius. Like where I live... many of the people that work there are my neighbors or people I've known. If there were rampant labor abuses you'd clearly hear about them in small close-knit communities. But just the opposite is what's really going on.

I've also managed people on temporary IT assignments in Bentonville... So I've heard directly how business is carried out and dealt directly with Wal-Mart's corporate management. the culture is no better nor no worse than any other large corporate business. The focus is on cost, competitiveness and market share. Contrary to what is published in the media... their corporate culture is employee focused as much as it can be but in the end it's share-holder value that drives management... as is the case in all large corporations.

It's not my intention to defend anything Wal-Mart does... but I do understand the challenges in managing a large workforce that does include a lot of lower paying positions. It's generally high turn-over. Employees want more money at every level. Few people want schedule changes but it's a dynamic business that requires constant adjustment to meet the market demands.

Frankly I've seen a continuing down-turn in productivity and willingness to work hard for advancement emerging the last decade. It seems employees expect rapid salary growth and advancement as if it's owed them and few are willing to work hard to achieve it. It's this damn entitled mindset that is permeating our culture that more at the core of this.

[VAiN]

I don't know where you base your opinion, Kristy... clearly it's not business related as you don't seem to understand the simple dynamics of Wal-Mart's labor force and the competitive retail industry in general.

I'm sure there are many instances of crappy management activities that go on in Wal-Marts across the country. It may seem huge but you have to contrast that with their relative size compared with other employers. Of course... you don't hear of any of the good things that go on because they don't make dramatic headlines and feed bullshit gossip circles.

There's also multiple facets of Wal-Mart... such as local stores that serve small towns and rural areas where it's the only major big box store in a 40 miles radius. Like where I live... many of the people that work there are my neighbors or people I've known. If there were rampant labor abuses you'd clearly hear about them in small close-knit communities. But just the opposite is what's really going on.

I've also managed people on temporary IT assignments in Bentonville... So I've heard directly how business is carried out and dealt directly with Wal-Mart's corporate management. the culture is no better nor no worse than any other large corporate business. The focus is on cost, competitiveness and market share. Contrary to what is published in the media... their corporate culture is employee focused as much as it can be but in the end it's share-holder value that drives management... as is the case in all large corporations.

It's not my intention to defend anything Wal-Mart does... but I do understand the challenges in managing a large workforce that does include a lot of lower paying positions. It's generally high turn-over. Employees want more money at every level. Few people want schedule changes but it's a dynamic business that requires constant adjustment to meet the market demands.

Frankly I've seen a continuing down-turn in productivity and willingness to work hard for advancement emerging the last decade. It seems employees expect rapid salary growth and advancement as if it's owed them and few are willing to work hard to achieve it. It's this damn entitled mindset that is permeating our culture that more at the core of this.

Excellent post, Zah. I'm sure it will be rebutted with the usual 'anyone who works harder and achieves more than me is evil' bullshit. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

[Kristy]

I don't know where you base your opinion, Kristy... clearly it's not business related as you don't seem to understand the simple dynamics of Wal-Mart's labor force and the competitive retail industry in general.

I'm sure there are many instances of crappy management activities that go on in Wal-Marts across the country. It may seem huge but you have to contrast that with their relative size compared with other employers. Of course... you don't hear of any of the good things that go on because they don't make dramatic headlines and feed bullshit gossip circles.

Such as? It's more than simple "crappy management" politics. Wal-Mart constantly pushes their bourgeois brand of feel good bullshit. Where have you been? Remember their reading program? I bet you do. Problem was Wal-Mart never gave a shit about literacy for this country as they did for their employees so they could under the basics of how to understand the basics of counting when it came to stocking. How about their "generous donations" to Catholic Charities food banks for no other purpose than a tax write off? Wal-Mart constantly bombards the consumer with their spoon fed lies of how great they are, how they save you money (while robbing their employees) and how wonderful it is to have a Wal-Mart in your area sucking dry the surrounding economical commerce. Come up with something better for an augment, okay?

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Such as? It's more than simple "crappy management" politics. Wal-Mart constantly pushes their bourgeois brand of feel good bullshit. Where have you been? Remember their reading program? I bet you do. Problem was Wal-Mart never gave a shit about literacy for this country as they did for their employees so they could under the basics of how to understand the basics of counting when it came to stocking. How about their "generous donations" to Catholic Charities food banks for no other purpose than a tax write off? Wal-Mart constantly bombards the consumer with their spoon fed lies of how great they are, how they save you money (while robbing their employees) and how wonderful it is to have a Wal-Mart in your area sucking dry the surrounding economical commerce. Come up with something better for an augment, okay?

so what, they still donated

[Nickdfresh]

Excellent post, Zah. I'm sure it will be rebutted with the usual 'anyone who works harder and achieves more than me is evil' bullshit. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

Dumb, smug comments that have nothing to do with the topic, much? How about Wal-Mart flagrantly violates labor laws as part of it's corporate culture and has been sued for routinely FORCING workers to work off the clock to AVOID OVERTIME? Just one little example, actually.

It's not necessarily everywhere, nor in every state or store. But Wal-Mart does have a long track record of scofflaw-ism that they've only recently tried to at least mitigate with their feel good policies of low drug prices, etc...

[Nickdfresh]

I don't know where you base your opinion, Kristy... clearly it's not business related as you don't seem to understand the simple dynamics of Wal-Mart's labor force and the competitive retail industry in general.

...

Part of what you're completely ignoring is that Wal-Mart long ago began sitting down suppliers in boiler-maker, back room negotiations to gain the absolute bottom-line price stripping profit from everybody but them. It was then Wal-Mart executives that essentially told companies how to outsource to China in order to cut out wages in the U.S....

Watch the excellent PBS Frontline program on Wal-Mart (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?22829-Walmart-And-The-Chinese-Connection!) which features one of their more successful store/regional managers that then turned against them and their practices...

[Kristy]

so what, they still donated

Great counter-argument, hippy.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Great counter-argument, hippy.

thanks. your "it doesn't count cause they can write it off" was stellar too, angry person who missed the hippy train ;)

[ZahZoo]

Sorry I don't recall any reading program... doubt it had anything to do with employees counting for stocking shelves. They've led the industry in automated sales and inventory tracking systems and RFID tracking so they didn't have to rely on manual methods.

Is your issue with a company using the US tax code legally or because it was a Catholic charity and played to some sort of conservative bullshit political contraceptive angle..?

What does that have to do with poor Joe Public getting paid $8.50 an hour to stock bananas in the produce section on 3rd shift?

[Romeo Delight]

Part of what you're completely ignoring is that Wal-Mart long ago began sitting down suppliers in boiler-maker, back room negotiations to gain the absolute bottom-line price stripping profit from everybody but them. It was then Wal-Mart executives that essentially told companies how to outsource to China in order to cut out wages in the U.S....

Watch the excellent PBS Frontline program on Wal-Mart (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?22829-Walmart-And-The-Chinese-Connection!) which features one of their more successful store/regional managers that then turned against them and their practices...

Now I know why Mittens wanted to cut funding for PBS...

[Kristy]

They've led the industry in automated sales and inventory tracking systems and RFID tracking so they didn't have to rely on manual methods. Did they now? Sure they didn't steal that from the major railroads' on how they track freight? By the way, much of that freight filled to the top with imported Chinese made shit headed for Wal-Mart.


Is your issue with a company using the US tax code legally or because it was a Catholic charity and played to some sort of conservative bullshit political contraceptive angle..? I could care less who Wal-Mart choose to give their tax write to. It's the guise in which Wal-Mart does it. Giving to a food bank for media purposes while placing their own employees on food stamps. Yeah, go figure.



What does that have to do with poor Joe Public getting paid $8.50 an hour to stock bananas in the produce section on 3rd shift? Because unlike your myopic view, Wal-Mart is not made up entirely of "Joe Public" Must be so easy for you to discount human beings as "Joe Publics" Mr. IT Guy.

[Nickdfresh]

Now I know why Mittens wanted to cut funding for PBS...

Yep, one of the few independent organizations that still takes on corporations. Which is ironic, since corporations like Exxon-Mobil still donate heavily to PBS...

[ZahZoo]

Part of what you're completely ignoring is that Wal-Mart long ago began sitting down suppliers in boiler-maker, back room negotiations to gain the absolute bottom-line price stripping profit from everybody but them. It was then Wal-Mart executives that essentially told companies how to outsource to China in order to cut out wages in the U.S....

Watch the excellent PBS Frontline program on Wal-Mart (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?22829-Walmart-And-The-Chinese-Connection!) which features one of their more successful store/regional managers that then turned against them and their practices...

I'm not ignoring their predatory product sourcing methods. We were discussing labor issues.

Very much aware of their aggressive product sourcing practices. Clearly they've leveraged their size and volume to drive for competitive wholesale prices. I did mention previously that they were a customer of my employer. They're no wimps... But they are no different than any other big outfit.

As I mentioned, I hate the outsourcing to BRIC countries. But it's a reality that's not going away... although there are promising signs of the out-flow tide slowing significantly and in some cases shifting back to the US. We have to quit bitching about it and find ways to compete with the rest of the world.

[ZahZoo]

Did they now? Sure they didn't steal that from the major railroads' on how they track freight? By the way, much of that freight filled to the top with imported Chinese made shit headed for Wal-Mart.

Because unlike your myopic view, Wal-Mart is not made up entirely of "Joe Public" Must be so easy for you to discount human beings as "Joe Publics" Mr. IT Guy.

Yes, LOL... I'm sure they didn't steal a damn thing from the railroads who are operating an infrastructure built on 17th & 18th century technology and are still struggling to adopt 20th century... let alone 21st century technology.

The primary reason for lower wages in a large majority of positions is due to the extensive use of inventory and Point of Sale (POS) technology. Their IT infrastructure is one of the most advanced in the industry... which means many of the positions held in the company require less "skills" for inventory and POS activity than competitors using more manual methods of inventory and POS controls.

With 2.2 million employees... plus all the automation. Most of those jobs paying an average of $8-10 per hour are basically "hands & eyes" positions. I'm not discounting any human element. I'm just continuing to point out the basic facts of these jobs in a rational business perspective.

I know Wal-Mart hasn't always been the perfect employer... nor are they today. I just don't think that a large majority of their employees are abused... nor are being significantly under-paid for the level of work they do.

[BigBadBrian]

Have you ever shopped at a Wal-Mart where they have like two out of twenty-five registers open and there are long lines? It's pretty fucking frustrating. They most certainly aim for the low side of staffing...

In today's economy, most places do. :gulp:

[envy_me]

They certainly have the right to strike if they wish, though I wouldn't think that is too smart of an idea, not in this economy.

It takes what, a day or two to train the average Walmart worker?

I can see a whole bunch of people getting fired and others getting hired.

You can't fire people for striking. It is their right. Didn't you know that?

[BigBadBrian]

Part of what you're completely ignoring is that Wal-Mart long ago began sitting down suppliers in boiler-maker, back room negotiations to gain the absolute bottom-line price stripping profit from everybody but them.

That's called revenue. You don't make money unless you sell something for more than you paid for it. You don't make money paying employees $5 an hour more than their labor is worth.

[envy_me]

I live in a world where non-educated, unskilled workers stock shelves in Wal-Marts and make about around $8-10 an hour. Then if you move into skilled positions such as IT, logisitcs, procurement, transportation and facilities jobs... Wal-Mart pays competitively within US corporate ranges with benefits.

What's life like on your planet?


I have to disagree. No matter what their education is, you people HAVE to have someone stocking food in a grocery store. If everybody in the whole world had a Ph.D some of them would still have to work in a grocery store.
And even if their job isn't as "important" as lets say a lawyer, they still sacrifise their time and body/health. Give them a break.

[BigBadBrian]

I have to disagree. No matter what their education is, you people HAVE to have someone stocking food in a grocery store. If everybody in the whole world had a Ph.D some of them would still have to work in a grocery store.

And they'll still be making $8-10 regardless of their education. People are paid by position in the blue-collar workforce and not by education.



And even if their job isn't as "important" as lets say a lawyer, they still sacrifise their time and body/health. Give them a break.

So a PhD stocking shelves should make what...$40 an hour?

[envy_me]

And they'll still be making $8-10 regardless of their education. People are paid by position in the blue-collar workforce and not by education.

That is what I said. If you look at posts before mine, the education was an argument for the low wages. My point is that SOMEBODY has to do these jobs.



So a PhD stocking shelves should make what...$40 an hour?

I don't know which amount they are fighing for. But in a society everyone benefits it the gap between rich and poor decreases. I was talking to a lady from the union and she was in south africa recently. People in "better" areas had all high fences with barb wire around theit property.
Here the desperation never reaches those levels. While Carl Bildt was minister of foreign affairs and prime minister of the country, he used to ride the bike to work every day. No bodyguards or anything. I think he appriciated not being forced to walk around with all the bodyguards and security.

You see, everybody is better off if nobody in the society is desperate.

[Satan]

That's called revenue. You don't make money unless you sell something for more than you paid for it. You don't make money paying employees $5 an hour more than their labor is worth.

At the very least, you should pay them enough money to afford to buy the crap that they sell at Wal Mart.

WalMart claims to have the lowest prices in town, but their own employees have to be on food stamps in order to buy groceries there?

That's just fucking wrong. No way to spin it otherwise. It's one thing for the government to help out those who are in a (hopefully temporary) bad situation. It's entirely another matter to be effectively subsidizing one of the richest families in America, by picking up the tab of feeding their full time employees.

[ZahZoo]

You can't fire people for striking. It is their right. Didn't you know that?

Only if they are union employees... and under specific collective bargaining terms.

If they are non-union and they choose to strike... in most states you get your ass fired on the spot. More often you might have a protest which it involves people calling in sick. As long as you're not violating your company's HR terms of employment you may not lose your job. But in most states non-union employees can be fired without cause... You don't have the right to strike... well I guess you do... you just don't have any legal right to remain employed if you do.

[envy_me]

Only if they are union employees... and under specific collective bargaining terms.

If they are non-union and they choose to strike... in most states you get your ass fired on the spot. More often you might have a protest which it involves people calling in sick. As long as you're not violating your company's HR terms of employment you may not lose your job. But in most states non-union employees can be fired without cause... You don't have the right to strike... well I guess you do... you just don't have any legal right to remain employed if you do.

Okay, here most legit companies are under collective agreement with the union, and don't fire people at strike even if they aren't in union. Even when union negotiates higher salaries, everybody gets them, not just people who are members of the union. Much thanks to the collective agreement.

Everybody should just join the union.

[VAiN]

Dumb, smug comments that have nothing to do with the topic, much?

Use played-out, outdated comebacks, much? Anyway, it wasn't directed at you, so whatever.

[So this is love]

Okay, here most legit companies are under collective agreement with the union, and don't fire people at strike even if they aren't in union. Even when union negotiates higher salaries, everybody gets them, not just people who are members of the union. Much thanks to the collective agreement.

Everybody should just join the union.


Sweden and the US are at opposite ends when it comes to economic and social models...

[DLR Bridge]

Not to geek this discussion out too much, but, on Star Trek The Next Generation, I was always under the impression that the ships paleo-botanist, Keiko was earning the same as the ships bar-keep, Gynan who was earning the same as Picard. How exactly did Gino Rodenberry arrive at his inter-planetary equal pay model? He was the man with the answers. Ain't no Wal-Mart on Rigel IV.

[DONNIEP]

I thought they did away with money all together?

[chefcraig]

I thought they did away with money all together?

Yeah, that was a head-scratcher. In one moment, Kirk had pawned his glasses after time traveling back to Earth to find some whales during Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home , and advised his shipmates (while dividing up the spoils) not to splurge. So obviously he knew about the terminology of money, while Spock apparently did not:

Spock: [to Kirk] What does it mean, "exact change"?

Then later in the film, the following exchange takes place:

Dr. Gillian Taylor: Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century.
Kirk: Well, we don't.

I guess this is due to one of the paradoxes provided by the space/time continuum involving time travel, and first uttered by Leonard McCoy early in the film:

McCoy: You're going to try time traveling in this rustbucket?
Kirk: Well, we've done it before.
McCoy: Sure, you slingshot around the Sun, pick up enough speed - You're in time warp. If you don't, you're fried.
Kirk: I prefer it to nothing.
McCoy: I prefer a dose of common sense! You're proposing that we go backwards in time, find humpback whales, then bring them foward in time, drop 'em off, and hope to Hell they tell this probe what to do with itself!
Kirk: That's the general idea.
McCoy: Well, that's crazy!
Kirk: You've got a better idea?


http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm43/loltrek/colourfulmetaphors.jpg

[Kristy]

I know Wal-Mart hasn't always been the perfect employer... nor are they today. I just don't think that a large majority of their employees are abused... nor are being significantly under-paid for the level of work they do.

They are far from being even a decent employer <object id="msnbc5dc780" classid="clsid:D>




<embed name="msnbc5dc780" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640" flashvars="launch=49955297&width=420&height=245" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" height="245" width="420"></object>

[ZahZoo]

Ok Kristy you've convinced me... they are the most evil retailer on earth.

But I'm still stopping by there today for the simple reason that I need more Cherrios and I'd rather go witness the suffering, oppressed employees standing around doing nothing and pay $3.48 for the same box that the "local" grocery chain charges $4.89 for.

[Kristy]

Ok Kristy you've convinced me... they are the most evil retailer on earth.

But I'm still stopping by there today for the simple reason that I need more Cherrios and I'd rather go witness the suffering, oppressed employees standing around doing nothing and pay $3.48 for the same box that the "local" grocery chain charges $4.89 for.
They are. Pay a shit wage, keep people in poverty so all you high and mighty IT dudes can laugh at them behind your crappy $3.48 Cheerios

[Kristy]

Must also be great for you, Zah, shopping at Wal-Fart conscious free

http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/bangladesh-factory-fire-kills-least-11

[vandeleur]

conscience free ... conscious free he would bump into stuff :biggrin:

[ZahZoo]

Must also be great for you, Zah, shopping at Wal-Fart conscious free

http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/bangladesh-factory-fire-kills-least-11

That's a pretty broad, wrong assumption about me from a human compassion perspective. It's one thing to intellectually debate the semantics of a business issue and how one might balance their family budget by purchasing a common food item at a lower price despite what they pay their workers... but quite another to imply insensitivity to a terrible human tragedy.

What happened in Bangladesh is awful and an unfortunate by-product of 3rd world labor issues not only prevalent in India but also China, Brazil, Argentina, Coasta Rica and Indonesia or any emerging player in the global economy.

Is WalMart to blame..? Not directly but I get the connection. Are you aware that Walmart inspected that factory twice last year and gave them their lowest safety rating. Plus they were due for a follow-up inspection which if failed would have resulted in suspension of orders from Walmart..?

IMO the owners and operators of that factory are directly responsible for the tragedy and should be brought up on criminal charges.

I won't feel any guilt associated with buying Cherrios at Walmart... We very rarely buy clothing there anyway. I prefer local farm supply stores who sell US made clothing at very good prices. Better quality and I'm not suit and tie guy... plus my wife and kids wouldn't be seen in Walmart fashions...

[Kristy]

That's a pretty broad, wrong assumption about me from a human compassion perspective.

wha---? I need not read no further. You have no compassion for low wage workers um, "Joe Publics" you labeled them with that broad brush keyboard of yours
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKq-5ES3p-Zks5d77igxY_lYjlqHnpho7zq-wiXoLlp4r5aUBp
I'm calling shenanigans on you

[ZahZoo]

Oh ok... now I'm the bad guy for generalizing. I'll mend my ways and elevate the shelf stockers and shopping cart wranglers to Inventory Logistical Coordinators and Parking Lot Transportation Engineers and we'll bump their pay up $50K a year... feel better now?

[Kristy]

Sarcasm does not help your argument.

[ZahZoo]

I guess not. I find it impossible to operate on this site without sarcasm... being it's one of the core foundational elements of this sub-culture of Roth & VH.

Further reading on the subject... it appears this issue is as I've mentioned is pretty much business as usual. Walmart wins the prize as the largest offender due to size. But shares the distinction with virtually every large chain of retail, fast food and mid-tier restaurant chains.

http://247wallst.com/2012/11/21/the-12-companies-paying-americans-the-least/

Those are just the top 12. I would imagine this trend continues even down to individually or smaller regionally owned similar businesses. It would appear all the dogs have fleas... So do we just shoot em all or do you have a solution to propose, Kristy?

[ELVIS]

How long before Anderson Pooper focuses on sarcasm on the net and uses us the example ??

[Kristy]

I never said Wal-Fart is the sole entity of shit pay and poor employee treatment in the public job sector But you cannot argue even with your sarcasm that they are the worst when it comes advancement and benefits. That article reads like shit anyway. Claiming that these corporations are just as evil as Wal-Fart by having their employees work on Thanksgiving Day is doesn't even began to equate with the constant labor atrocities that Wal-Fart constantly gets away with. It's biased journalism to say Starbucks should be chastised as much as Wal-Fart because they cut benefits to their employees who, by the way, happen to be unionized so what's the point in forming a union in the first place?

Corporate greed exists everywhere and and all levels. Exploitation of the poor, unskilled or uneducated is a must for these cocksuckers to make the profits that they do. Problem is they make absolutely no efferent to better society as a whole by offering their workers better benefits and avenues improve their quality of life. Instead that take that profit and build yet another strip mall to place their business in and splatter the landscape with their corporate logo eyesores. Wal-Fart, Sears, Target etc. don't give a shit about their employees other what the Federal labor laws tell them to. No surprise there. That article proves nothing.

It's people like you who support the increasing poverty rates in this country by copping the attitude that by having your shitty little IT job somehow makes you a better person than say, BigBadBrian's burger flipping skills. Must be a real burden for you to go through life having to shop at Wal-Fart knowing all along you're so elite to all those miserable employees. You measure a person's worth by their bank account and (limited) job skills. By the way, what do IT people do anyway? Press the reboot button on a Chinese made server? Date mine for Google? Plug this shitty (Chinese made) cable into that box over there? Wow. One can' get any more 50K/yr than that!

[ZahZoo]

It's people like you who support the increasing poverty rates in this country by copping the attitude that by having your shitty little IT job somehow makes you a better person than say, BigBadBrian's burger flipping skills. Must be a real burden for you to go through life having to shop at Wal-Fart knowing all along you're so elite to all those miserable employees. You measure a person's worth by their bank account and (limited) job skills. By the way, what do IT people do anyway? Press the reboot button on a Chinese made server? Date mine for Google? Plug this shitty (Chinese made) cable into that box over there? Wow. One can' get any more 50K/yr than that!

Please don't assume acknowledging and accepting various job roles in the general labor market involving entry-level positions in retail as anything supporting poverty nor making a value judgement on who's better than the next person. You have to have people doing those jobs for our world to work from the bottom to the top of the economic scale. Just because I held jobs at that level in my teens and advanced into a much different career field by working my ass off doesn't make me better than anyone... just in a different place.

Bank accounts say nothing about a person's worth... skills on the other hand can have a direct effect on one's ability to provide for themselves and families. Education can be another worthless measure especially on productive skills... one can be highly educated but lack the ability to apply any of that knowledge into productive output. Thus PhD's and Master degree card holding people stocking shelves... I don't believe any of this is a measure of another's worth. Keep guessing...

What do IT people do... that's a wide field. Some tinker with PC's, plug cables, push buttons and mine data... Some manage networks, web hosting and all the stuff that makes the Internet... Others develop advanced chips, hardware systems, software and provide infrastructure support that enables space exploration, advanced weather monitoring and prediction, quantum physics research, mapping human DNA and genome that enables advanced medical research and a lot of all the wiz-bang stuff that's advanced life here on earth. Most of my career has been in the latter portion... I suppose in your not-so-positive opinion this is some bad thing too that I should be ashamed of?

[PETE'S BROTHER]

zahzoo, the wizbang maker, thank you :yo:

[Kristy]

Please don't assume acknowledging and accepting various job roles in the general labor market involving entry-level positions in retail as anything supporting poverty nor making a value judgement on who's better than the next person. You have to have people doing those jobs for our world to work from the bottom to the top of the economic scale. Just because I held jobs at that level in my teens and advanced into a much different career field by working my ass off doesn't make me better than anyone... just in a different place.

Really? And pray tell how did you get to that place? Most likely you has an employer who gave you the opportunity to advance where you are today. Wal-Fart entry levels positions are the foundations of the increasing poverty levels in this country. Did any one of your teenage years employers hand you a form for food stamps? Tell me in these economically stressed time where and average of $9/hr pays for rent, food, miscellaneous expenses and a better quality of life when you have no avenues of advancement as you so gracefully once did. Christ, you clutch at some ridiculous straws. Get it through your IT head, this is no "up" when it comes to Wal-Fart.



What do IT people do... that's a wide field. Some tinker with PC's, plug cables, push buttons and mine data... Some manage networks, web hosting and all the stuff that makes the Internet...

Like I said, you plug (Chinese made) cables into boxes all day and mine personal data. Golly.

[ZahZoo]

zahzoo, the wizbang maker, thank you :yo:

LOL... I wish one of our great product innovations would have come to fruition... Back in the late 80's while pulling a 30 hour stint compiling code for a software release. Myself and a few other crazy programming geeks came up with and did the base design on a huge human innovation. The RCIV... Rectal Cranial Inversion Viewer... basically involves a wide angle camera embedded in the belly button, with a viewing screen implanted in the abdominal area facing rearward... this device would allow those with their head's up their asses the ability to navigate safely...

[ELVIS]

What do IT people do... that's a wide field. Some tinker with PC's, plug cables, push buttons and mine data... Some manage networks, web hosting and all the stuff that makes the Internet... Others develop advanced chips, hardware systems, software and provide infrastructure support that enables space exploration, advanced weather monitoring and prediction, quantum physics research, mapping human DNA and genome that enables advanced medical research and a lot of all the wiz-bang stuff that's advanced life here on earth. Most of my career has been in the latter portion... I suppose in your not-so-positive opinion this is some bad thing too that I should be ashamed of?

You should be ashamed...

The black girl working the register has four teenage children and a new baby to pay for...

And that Escalade note she got stuck with from the white man at the used car lot on the corner is tough to pay for...

Child welfare plus food stamps pus child support plus $10/hr at Walmart only goes so far...

She needs a real living wage, say $35/hr ??


:elvis:

[Kristy]

You should be ashamed...

The black girl working the register has four teenage children and a new baby to pay for...

And that Escalade note she got stuck with from the white man at the used car lot on the corner is tough to pay for...

Child welfare plus food stamps pus child support plus $10/hr at Walmart only goes so far...

She needs a real living wage, say $35/hr ??


:elvis:
Christ, you are one ignorant racist cunt.

[ZahZoo]

Really? And pray tell how did you get to that place? Most likely you has an employer who gave you the opportunity to advance where you are today. Wal-Fart entry levels positions are the foundations of the increasing poverty levels in this country. Did any one of your teenage years employers hand you a form for food stamps? Tell me in these economically stressed time where and average of $9/hr pays for rent, food, miscellaneous expenses and a better quality of life when you have no avenues of advancement as you so gracefully once did. Christ, you clutch at some ridiculous straws. Get it through your IT head, this is no "up" when it comes to Wal-Fart.




Like I said, you plug (Chinese made) cables into boxes all day and mine personal data. Golly.

Hmmmm no, never had an employer hand me an app for food stamps. When I moved out on my own in 76... I was making $2.75 an hour as a breakfast cook at Sambos. Had started a year and half earlier at minimum wage of $2.30 an hour. I rented a decent apartment, owned my own car and paid all my bills. This was in Silicon Valley in California no less. There were economic down-turns back then too... In 78 I took "temp work" at a large semi-conductor manufacturer and assembled cables and aligned lasers for the initial release of bar-code readers for cash registers at $4.75 and hour... moved around a few other companies and just kept learning more and working hard and built a career. No one handed anything to me... I chased it down all by myself.

[sadaist]

Christ, you are one ignorant racist cunt.


:lmao:


Elvis is speaking in extreme stereotypes. I'm sure there are people who fit squarely into what he described, just not a majority. I began a new job 6 weeks ago & my desk partner is a younger black woman with a 1 year old daughter. She is there 9 hours a day just like me for the same crap wage. I see her getting the same cup of noodles at lunch as me and refilling the same water bottle like I do. Does she get food stamps? I don't know. But I hope so. We make the same pay rate & I can't afford an apartment, let alone a 1 year old daughter and all that is associated with that. No way she could do it on the pay me & her receive.

So yeah, I hope she is getting some assistance. (and we make more than a Walmart employee, especially with all the benefits the company provides from day 1)


So back to Elvis and his sarcasm, $35/hour is nice, but a true living wage if you have even 1 child and trying to get by in California would be probably around $20-$25/hour. (obviously less in other states) And that's just to have a small apartment in a somewhat decent area where you won't get stabbed or dodge bullets, and have an older model Honda or Toyota car and maybe enough to hit Applebees or Chilis once a month as a family treat. No Hawaii vacations, but it is nice to be able to go see a movie at a real theater once a month as a getaway or escape without worrying if you are spending next weeks grocery money. People making $8/hour and trying to live on their own are seriously hurting.

Surviving & existing is expensive. Living is pretty much out of the question.

[Kristy]

Hmmmm no, never had an employer hand me an app for food stamps. When I moved out on my own in 76... I was making $2.75 an hour as a breakfast cook at Sambos. Had started a year and half earlier at minimum wage of $2.30 an hour. I rented a decent apartment, owned my own car and paid all my bills.

On 2.75/hr? Even if you account for inflation adjustment, cost of living and the economics of 1976 I'm calling shenanigans on that one, too.


There were economic down-turns back then too... In 78 I took "temp work" at a large semi-conductor manufacturer and assembled cables and aligned lasers for the initial release of bar-code readers for cash registers at $4.75 and hour... moved around a few other companies and just kept learning more and working hard and built a career. No one handed anything to me... I chased it down all by myself.

I'm sure there were numerous down turns but you defeated your own argument knowing you worked with the incentive for opportunity and advancement probably because those employers wanted to see you gain a better quality of life. I'm sure you can make the case that the times of 1978 were much different than today and that food stamps/welfare programs were not a supplementary pseudo benefit to being gainfully employed but no one is handing anything to Wal-Mart workers, either. Except of course, food stamp application forms. I'm all for your work ethic and stance that you took nothing from nobody to achieve success in life but this is 2012 where having such ideas is frowned upon by the likes of Wal-Fart. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

[Kristy]

:lmao:


Elvis is speaking in extreme stereotypes.

No, he's speaking as he always has: like a dumbass.

[Nickdfresh]

You should be ashamed...

The black girl working the register has four teenage children and a new baby to pay for...

And that Escalade note she got stuck with from the white man at the used car lot on the corner is tough to pay for...

Child welfare plus food stamps pus child support plus $10/hr at Walmart only goes so far...

She needs a real living wage, say $35/hr ??


:elvis:

Racist stereotypes and generalizations, much?

[sadaist]

On 2.75/hr? Even if you account for inflation adjustment, cost of living and the economics of 1976 I'm calling shenanigans on that one, too.


I made I think $3.35/hour back in 1986 ish. 1992 was making around $8-$9/hour. When I got my very 1st apartment in PACIFIC BEACH in 1992 (yes, blocks to the pacific ocean) it was HUGE 1 bedroom in great location for $450 a month. That same apartment today is about $1300 per month.


So figure at $9/hour I got a great apartment in 1992. For that same apartment today I'd need to make about $25/hour. People are still making $9 but there just aren't apartments for that any more. It fucking sucks.


:( I have some great memories of that apartment. The friends, the parties, the pay-per-view boxing matchups, my first self cooked Thanksgiving (fucking NAILED IT! YUM!!!). Fuck you guys. Now I'm bummed for the day. Thanks assholes ;)



*I'm gonna go play in my pets thread to cheer me up.

[ZahZoo]

On 2.75/hr? Even if you account for inflation adjustment, cost of living and the economics of 1976 I'm calling shenanigans on that one, too.



I'm sure there were numerous down turns but you defeated your own argument knowing you worked with the incentive for opportunity and advancement probably because those employers wanted to see you gain a better quality of life. I'm sure you can make the case that the times of 1978 were much different than today and that food stamps/welfare programs were not a supplementary pseudo benefit to being gainfully employed but no one is handing anything to Wal-Mart workers, either. Except of course, food stamp application forms. I'm all for your work ethic and stance that you took nothing from nobody to achieve success in life but this is 2012 where having such ideas is frowned upon by the likes of Wal-Fart. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

Go look it up... minimum wage levels and economics are well documented. Yes, times were different. Older workers and management were all operating on 40's-60's work ethics where hard work was rewarded.

There were still folks only motivated to do their minimum job and didn't advance as there are today, although I will say that attitude or lack of drive is far more prevalent today. With the exception of a few great managers/mentors over the years... most weren't all that encouraging. Most were just playing the company line to meet objectives. It was me driving myself... boredom is my enemy to this day.

[FORD]

It's really so simple that even Chimpy Bush could understand it (though he would still choose to ignore the reality anyway).....

When people have money to spend, they will spend more of it, which means more stuff is sold, which means more stuff has to be made, which means more people need to make it.

Of course the flaw in that plan in recent years is that most of that stuff isn't made HERE. Which fucks up the entire cycle. And that's exactly why ALL of the tax/trade/economic policies since 1980 need to be shitcanned, and go back to what actually worked for this country.

[BigBadBrian]

It's really so simple that even Chimpy Bush could understand it (though he would still choose to ignore the reality anyway).....

When people have money to spend, they will spend more of it, which means more stuff is sold, which means more stuff has to be made, which means more people need to make it.

Of course the flaw in that plan in recent years is that most of that stuff isn't made HERE. Which fucks up the entire cycle. And that's exactly why ALL of the tax/trade/economic policies since 1980 need to be shitcanned, and go back to what actually worked for this country.

FORD, that all sounds nice...kind of like tax the rich less, they will then have more money for company expansion and more employees, more employees means more income and payroll taxes for the government in the form of revenue, and more revenue means less of a deficit! See how that works? :biggrin:

Getting back to the living wage argument...how much do you suppose a sales associate, cashier, and stock boy should be making per hour at Walmart? I realize it's going to differ based upon region...just give me a nice average figure. :gulp:

[FORD]

FORD, that all sounds nice...kind of like tax the rich less, they will then have more money for company expansion and more employees, more employees means more income and payroll taxes for the government in the form of revenue, and more revenue means less of a deficit! See how that works? :biggrin:

No, because the last 32 years are evidence that it does NOT work. The Jude Wanniski "Two Santa Claus" /supply side economics myth is a dangerous fiction that has destroyed this country, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise.


Getting back to the living wage argument...how much do you suppose a sales associate, cashier, and stock boy should be making per hour at Walmart? I realize it's going to differ based upon region...just give me a nice average figure. :gulp:

At the very least, they should be able to feed themselves from the store they work at, without the government picking up the tab via food stamps. The Walton inheritance brats could afford to buy each and every one of their employees steak & lobster dinners every night for the rest of their lives and they would still be rich.

[BigBadBrian]

No, because the last 32 years are evidence that it does NOT work. The Jude Wanniski "Two Santa Claus" /supply side economics myth is a dangerous fiction that has destroyed this country, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise.

Stop it, you know nothing of supply-side economics or any other economics other than what you read in the DU, DK, or HP.



At the very least, they should be able to feed themselves from the store they work at, without the government picking up the tab via food stamps. The Walton inheritance brats could afford to buy each and every one of their employees steak & lobster dinners every night for the rest of their lives and they would still be rich.

Nope,you're not getting off that easy. Give me a dollar figure for each position I named.

[Kristy]

Stop it, you know nothing of supply-side economics or any other economics other than what you read in the DU, DK, or HP.

Hey, go fuck yourself with one of these and get out of this thread:
http://www.seagulldistribution.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/vurtego-v3-pogo-sticks.jpg

[Kristy]

There were still folks only motivated to do their minimum job and didn't advance as there are today, although I will say that attitude or lack of drive is far more prevalent today.

That I will agree with you on. I am ashamed at the amount of people in my age bracket or younger (I won't say generation here) who want such material goods such as iPhones, iPads, top fashion labels even BMW's but won't lift a finger in a laborious task to achieve one. Even if they do rarely they appreciate having such a luxury. I myself drive a Mercedes but its old, a pile of shit and has its share of problems but I worked over two years to get it (and another 3 to pay it off). My age bracket would rather complain endlessly what it means to have a boss/supervisor telling them what to do rather than see how lucky they are to have a job in the first place.

[envy_me]

Can I be honest with you guys? WHERE do you find the energy to fight this much?? I want some of that energy. I come home from work, dead tired, the last thing I wanna do is argue with people. Maybe when I was 15, but not now.
What's your secret? Red bull?

[FORD]

Can I be honest with you guys? WHERE do you find the energy to fight this much?? I want some of that energy. I come home from work, dead tired, the last thing I wanna do is argue with people. Maybe when I was 15, but not now.
What's your secret? Red bull?

It's all that crap in the typical "American" diet..... high fructose corn poison, preservatives, bovine growth hormone, genetically modified "vegetables", etc.

Just like Dr. Frankenstein's original monster... rotting flesh, artificially powered by evil mad scientists.

[Dr. Love]

Can I be honest with you guys? WHERE do you find the energy to fight this much?? I want some of that energy. I come home from work, dead tired, the last thing I wanna do is argue with people. Maybe when I was 15, but not now.
What's your secret? Red bull?

You don't understand.

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET

[envy_me]

It's all that crap in the typical "American" diet..... high fructose corn poison, preservatives, bovine growth hormone, genetically modified "vegetables", etc.

Just like Dr. Frankenstein's original monster... rotting flesh, artificially powered by evil mad scientists.

I'd sacrifise my health for some of that energy. Live a little instead of putting out fires everywhere I go, just cause I am to old to fight.

.

[Kristy]

My endless hatred for Jimmy "Fuckface" Page keeps me going.

[envy_me]

You don't understand.

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET

Seriously, I'm not gay, but that signature is hypnotic. I can't stop looking at it.

.

[Dr. Love]

Seriously, I'm not gay, but that signature is hypnotic. I can't stop looking at it.

.

We'll go with "bi" then.

[envy_me]

We'll go with "bi" then.

I am not that either, but I can't stop. First I stare at it for like a minute, then I start laughing :D

[Dr. Love]

Don't lie. You like big butts.

[envy_me]

Don't lie. You like big butts.

It's so jiggly :D

.

[envy_me]

NOW you stop fighting??? Just when I need some entertainment??


Check this out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcuCSQLImHo

.

[ZahZoo]

Can I be honest with you guys? WHERE do you find the energy to fight this much?? I want some of that energy. I come home from work, dead tired, the last thing I wanna do is argue with people. Maybe when I was 15, but not now.
What's your secret? Red bull?

For me it's just multi-tasking... keeping entertained during mind numbing conference calls on global projects that last a couple of hours and I only care about 10-15 minutes of it.

Dr Love is correct... someone is wrong on the internet... you can't let these things slide.

[envy_me]

For me it's just multi-tasking... keeping entertained during mind numbing conference calls on global projects that last a couple of hours and I only care about 10-15 minutes of it.

Dr Love is correct... someone is wrong on the internet... you can't let these things slide.

Hahahaha, multi tasking :D Lucky you then :-) I can do it for like 3 posts, then I don't care anymore. I lose interest quicker then... I don't know.

.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Hahahaha, multi tasking :D Lucky you then :-) I can do it for like 3 posts, then I don't care anymore. I lose interest quicker then... I don't know.

.

a goldfish

[envy_me]

a goldfish

What were we talking about? Oh, energy. Maybe omega-3 is the thing for me.

[sadaist]

Hey, go fuck yourself with one of these and get out of this thread:
http://www.seagulldistribution.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/vurtego-v3-pogo-sticks.jpg



OMG Kristy. When I grew up we lived a bit on the outskirts and only had 3 TV channels. So we had to entertain ourselves a lot. Outside mostly. We had an old pogo stick that I became super good on. My record is 1,000 hops in a row without stopping or falling. I SWEAR TO VAN HALEN! One thousand!!! No shit. I can't believe it either. But I did 1,000 hops while going around our wraparound driveway a few times. Was awesome!

Sorry for the derail, carry on.

[Kristy]

No such thing as a derail when it comes to BrainDeadBrian

[ZahZoo]

Hmmm not too far fetched eh?

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483549_432785270109122_10304988_n.jpg

[Kristy]

That's exactly what it is.

[tbone888]

I couldnt care less what figures people in this thread are pulling out of their ass.....You can live off of simple retail wages, and quite well. Ive seen it first hand.

Both my parents had nothing more than a HS education (one didnt finish HS). My mother worked for retail giant and dad worked as a tech. Neither were ever in supervisor positions and both made what many here are calling "wages impossible to live on".

They put 2 kids through 4 years of college, bought real estate and ended up with 7 figures of wealth (a couple times over) by the time of retirement.

How you say? They ALWAYS lived below their means. After paying off their 1st car, they never had a car payment again. They bought groceries on sale and prepared meals at home from scratch. They cut their own hair (no $200 salon trips here).

When the household shrunk to 3 (my sister went off to college), we lived off my mother's income and invested my father's income. Thats right...THREE people living off wages from a retail giant!!

[jhale667]

You're honestly going to compare the economic situation your parents flourished under to today's? Get real.

[tbone888]

They saved/invested all their money post 50 years of age...in other words, a little over 10-15 years ago:) It can be done today just easily as then...i know. It all comes down to whether you want do do it.

[FORD]

They saved/invested all their money post 50 years of age...in other words, a little over 10-15 years ago:) It can be done today just easily as then...i know. It all comes down to whether you want do do it.

It's not nearly as easy now, because wages have not kept up with rising costs. Hell, in the early 70s, you could buy a decent house for less than $20,000 and own 2 cars (neither of which were new) and do it all with only one person working. My mom never had a full time job after I was born. So yeah, it was possible back then. Not so much after 32 years of supply side fictional bullshit dragging down wages and driving up costs of everything.

[jhale667]

They saved/invested all their money post 50 years of age...in other words, a little over 10-15 years ago:) It can be done today just easily as then...i know. It all comes down to whether you want do do it.

Since FORD already debunked that bullshit...


It's not nearly as easy now, because wages have not kept up with rising costs. Hell, in the early 70s, you could buy a decent house for less than $20,000 and own 2 cars (neither of which were new) and do it all with only one person working. My mom never had a full time job after I was born. So yeah, it was possible back then. Not so much after 32 years of supply side fictional bullshit dragging down wages and driving up costs of everything.


I'm just reiterating - you're full of it.

[tbone888]

Excuses...

[ELVIS]

No dude, they need three big screen tv's, four smart phone accounts, A PC and two laptops, an internet and satellite account, two suv's, a small car and a boat...

[Dr. Love]

It's not nearly as easy now, because wages have not kept up with rising costs. Hell, in the early 70s, you could buy a decent house for less than $20,000 and own 2 cars (neither of which were new) and do it all with only one person working. My mom never had a full time job after I was born. So yeah, it was possible back then. Not so much after 32 years of supply side fictional bullshit dragging down wages and driving up costs of everything.

Ford, 20k from the 70s is about 120k in today's money.

The problem is consumer debt and discipline. People now are completely irresponsible with money and credit.

[ZahZoo]

You're honestly going to compare the economic situation your parents flourished under to today's? Get real.

Ya know I got to thinking after posting how I got by in my younger days on low wages... Some things convert fairly closely when you adjust for inflation and the value of a dollar back then to today. Energy/fuel and food costs are about the same. Housing is slightly higher as are transportation costs.

But the thing that jumps out today that I didn't have back then... internet connectivity, cable TV, and cell phone costs. I've eliminated mine now... but a lot of people today are floating a lot of debt on credit cards, cars, boats, etc. If you have young kids... daycare costs are killer. I think those costs right there tip the scale from getting by on a lower wage ($8-12 per hour) today. If you could live without all that... you could survive... doubtful you'd ever get ahead though.

[FORD]

Ford, 20k from the 70s is about 120k in today's money.


Yes and no....

Obviously the price of a house has inflated that much, or probably worse. I don't remember exactly what my parents sold the house for when they moved about 10 years ago, but it was probably more than that.

The problem is that wages have not kept up to scale. Which is why you don't have single "breadwinners" in a family. And yeah, some people go overboard on credit, and others get caught in debt for other reasons (student loans, medical expenses, whatever) so that all factors in to the national picture. But there are millions of Americans out there who did everything responsibly to the best of their ability, and still got fucked by this Reverse-Robin Hood bullshit of the last 32 years.

[tbone888]

Housing in many places are lower than 10 years ago.

I was talking to a friend's 20 something kid the other day..bitching he couldnt get by today, all the while checking his Apple I-whatthefuckever.

Told him i knew his dad and if he was really serious....ask to move in with his parents for a few years with the understanding that he would basically save every penny he made. Ditch the cell phone, stop eating out, pack a lunch etc and get down to business. He could easily save 60k in a few years. Put it down on a duplex and live in one side. Done right, one can basically live rent free. Thats just a start. Carry the good saving habits forward.

[jhale667]

Didn't realize Mitt Wrongney was posting here..."move back in with your parents!" :doh:



And ENOUGH with the "get rid of your cell, internet, cable"... it's 2012 FFS. Like you're going to get a BETTER job than the one you have without an internet connection...

[tbone888]

Exactly the attitude i was expecting. Again...excuses.

[ELVIS]

Tacoboy lives in a fantasy...

[jhale667]

Tacoboy lives in a fantasy...


Said the swamp-dwelling racist prick who fantasizes that I work for Taco Bell instead of one of the biggest corporations in the world (that he couldn't even get an interview with if he tried). Go fuck yourself.

[DONNIEP]

Mmmmm...tacos :gulp:

[ZahZoo]

Ha nothin like corporate dick swinging... my corporation is bigger than your corporation!! ;)

[jhale667]

Exactly the attitude i was expecting. Again...excuses.


Riiiight. So tell us, Mensa - what will your "excuse" be for not responding in time to a potential employer's email requesting a follow-up interview --- y'know the one he would have CALLED you about, but you don't have a cell...?

[jhale667]

Ha nothin like corporate dick swinging... my corporation is bigger than your corporation!! ;)



Clearly ELBOW has a bad case of corporation-envy, yes. :lmao:

[FORD]

Tacoboy lives in a fantasy...

And nurseboy lives here......

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/redneck_houseboat.jpg

Advantages: Don't have to worry about landscaping, easy access to fresh catfish.
Disadvantages: Gators at your front door.

[Kristy]

Exactly the attitude i was expecting. Again...excuses.

We're sorry, Sgt Emil
http://unpaidfilmcritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/an-officer-and-a-gentleman-screenshot.jpg

[ELVIS]

Said the swamp-dwelling racist prick who fantasizes that I work for Taco Bell instead of one of the biggest corporations in the world (that he couldn't even get an interview with if he tried). Go fuck yourself.

I thought you were against corporations...

[tbone888]

Aye, my fault, should have said smartphone. You can pick a no contract pre paid cell for next to nothing almost anywhere....then again, my premise was that he already had a job and was trying to save money. Always sad to someone "struggling to get by" walking around with the latest iphone and a $100+ monthly bill so they can change their facebook status at work or send recycled bad jokes to all their friends.

Now, I could see if it was for something important like checking the roth army website:)

[FORD]

No smartphones here yet. I'm fine with the technology of it, I just can't stand trying to communicate on something so goddamn small. I can barely type on most laptop keyboards. Texting on a phone? fuck that!

[sadaist]

They saved/invested all their money post 50 years of age...in other words, a little over 10-15 years ago:) It can be done today just easily as then...i know. It all comes down to whether you want do do it.


The only issue I see is that you are talking about a 2 income family. Some things like rent & utilities dont really change much if you are 1 person or 2. Food costs go up obviously. A single person trying to live on retail wages today is in rough shape. Two people together are in rough shape but can probably do some good things if they are diligent with their money.

I've been thinking of getting a girlfriend just for someone to pay 1/2 the rent :) Well, and the sex.

[ELVIS]

You can learn it...

iPhone texting is easy and I thought I could never learn it...

[ELVIS]

I've been thinking of getting a girlfriend just for someone to pay 1/2 the rent :) Well, and the sex.

You want a girlfriend to pay for half the sex ??

[envy_me]

I've been thinking of getting a girlfriend just for someone to pay 1/2 the rent :) Well, and the sex.


My friend let her boyfriend move in with her just cause she couldn't pay the rent. Now she's got a job, but he still lives there :-/ non of us other hags like him. He's strange. Be careful with what you bring home.

[sadaist]

Be careful with what you bring home.


Any chance you could get into your time machine & tell me this circa 2000? Thanks!

[ZahZoo]

Riiiight. So tell us, Mensa - what will your "excuse" be for not responding in time to a potential employer's email requesting a follow-up interview --- y'know the one he would have CALLED you about, but you don't have a cell...?

You do realize land lines still exist with basic service around $20 a month..? Not a great option but it's functional.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

You do realize land lines still exist with basic service around $20 a month..? Not a great option but it's functional.

includes caller id and voicemail :baaa:

[chefcraig]

You do realize land lines still exist with basic service around $20 a month..? Not a great option but it's functional.


includes caller id and voicemail :baaa:


Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know - when a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in compensatory damages, and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/lomis/caveman-lawyer2.jpg

[jhale667]

I thought you were against corporations...


Obviously you're not paid to think.

[Dr. Love]

Said the swamp-dwelling racist prick who fantasizes that I work for Taco Bell instead of one of the biggest corporations in the world (that he couldn't even get an interview with if he tried). Go fuck yourself.

McDonald's?

:biggrin:

I'm just kidding, jhale. :)