Why the "Death Tax" Should be Abandoned

[BigBadBrian]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/16/ranchers-farmers-brace-for-death-tax-impact/?intcmp=trending


Rancher Kevin Kester works dawn to dusk, drives a 12-year-old pick-up truck and earns less than a typical bureaucrat in Washington D.C., yet the federal government considers him rich enough to pay the estate tax -- also known as the "death tax."And with that tax set to soar at the beginning of 2013 without some kind of intervention from Congress, farmers and ranchers like Kester are waiting anxiously. "There is no way financially my kids can pay what the IRS is going to demand from them nine months after death and keep this ranch intact for their generation and future generations," said Kester, of the Bear Valley Ranch in Central California.Two decades ago, Kester paid the IRS $2 million when he inherited a 22,000-acre cattle ranch from his grandfather. Come January, the tax burden on his children will be more than $13 million. For supporters of a high estate tax, which is imposed on somebody's estate after death, Kester is the kind of person they rarely mention. He doesn't own a mansion. He's not the CEO of a multi-national. But because of his line of work, he owns a lot of property that would be subject to a lot of tax.

"Our number one goal is to repeal the estate tax, to get rid of it, not have it for every generation, when I die and my kids die and so on," he told Fox News. "For everyone to have to re-purchase the ranch or farm over and over for each generation, that's inherently unjust. So what we're doing is asking our politicians to understand that and repeal the estate tax."

That, however, is unlikely. Currently, the federal government taxes estates worth $5 million dollars and up at 35 percent. When the Bush-era tax rates expire in January, rates increase to 55 percent on estates of $1 million or more. While some Republicans want to eliminate the death tax entirely, President Obama has proposed a 45 percent rate on estates of $3.5 million and up.

"The idea behind the estate tax is to prevent the very wealthy among us from accumulating vast fortunes that they can pass along to the next generation," said Patrick Lester, director of Federal Fiscal Policy with the progressive think tank -- OMB Watch. "The poster child for the estate tax is Paris Hilton -- the celebrity and hotel heiress. That's who this is targeted at, not ordinary Americans."

But according to the American Farm Bureau, up to 97 percent of American farms and ranches will be subject to an estate tax where the exemption is set at $1 million. At that rate, the federal government will pocket $40 billion in 2013 and up to $86 billion in 2021. That contrasts with just $12 billion this year.

Many Democrats argue the tax promotes equality among classes, especially in capital gains -- or stocks passed from one generation to another. Since stocks are only taxed when they are sold, the government can't profit from long-term investments without the estate tax.

"Very large portions of very wealthy estates are tied up in stocks and they have never been taxed," said Lester. "The estate tax is one of the ways we make sure the wealthy pay a little bit more as an overall share of their wealth and income compared to low-income individuals."

Many Republicans argue the opposite. Because the estate tax falls on assets, they say it hampers investment by reducing incentives to save and invest. A pending estate tax could become a disincentive to invest in an otherwise viable business, forcing older people to liquidate or shift resources out of an ongoing business and into a trust or tax-free investment.

"We're not millionaires in the terms of making a million dollars a year," said Kester who lives in a modest home and whose family -- not outsiders or a corporation -- runs his ranch. "I have a half-a-million dollars in soil."Kester can't spend it, without selling land. But by selling the land, each year the ranch would become less viable.

The estate tax dates back to 1916 when then-President Woodrow Wilson imposed the tax of 1 to 10 percent on the wealthy because World War I reduced federal government revenues. Under Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the tax rose to 77 percent, as Congress tried to prevent wealth from becoming concentrated among a few powerful and super-rich families.

Ironically, many nations historically more concerned with class and wealth -- namely Russia and China -- have since abandoned their estate taxes.

[BigBadBrian]

"The idea behind the estate tax is to prevent the very wealthy among us from accumulating vast fortunes that they can pass along to the next generation," said Patrick Lester, director of Federal Fiscal Policy with the progressive think tank -- OMB Watch. "The poster child for the estate tax is Paris Hilton -- the celebrity and hotel heiress. That's who this is targeted at, not ordinary Americans."



Yet Ordinary Americans are getting screwed with this tax.

[Seshmeister]

An 'ordinary' American owns a $25 million ranch?

This article is shit.

If he can only earn a small salary then he obviously isn't the man to be running the place.

The truth is no doubt that he chooses to only draw that salary from his business to save on tax and he also takes a dividend.

[Seshmeister]

Also notice the article doesn't state what the salary is because it is high enough to lose the sympathy of the readers - bet it is well into 6 figures.

You need to learn how to read with a skeptical mind Brian, it is too easy for these people to manipulate you.

[ELVIS]

What do you expect, it's from FOX...

[ELVIS]

You need to learn how to read with a skeptical mind Brian, it is too easy for these people to manipulate you.

That's why he voted for Romney...


:biggrin:

[Nickdfresh]

Also notice the article doesn't state what the salary is because it is high enough to lose the sympathy of the readers - bet it is well into 6 figures.

You need to learn how to read with a skeptical mind Brian, it is too easy for these people to manipulate you.

The typical Republican voter...so easily swayed by the puppet show of bullshit semantics and the likening of the plight of multimillionaires to the middle classes...

[ELVIS]

The typical Democrat / Republican voter...so easily swayed by the puppet show of bullshit semantics...

Exactly...

[BigBadBrian]

It amazes me how much Democrats hate and are against small business. Downright shameful.

Nick, you're in intellectual peril if Elvis agrees with you.

He bashes Fox yet reads infowars and watches PressTV. What an inbred Doofus he is.

anyhow the worth of the ranch doesn't relay the fact of the business overhead. It's quite extensive. It's not like these people have $25 million on hand.

[BigBadBrian]

"Very large portions of very wealthy estates are tied up in stocks and they have never been taxed," said Lester. "The estate tax is one of the ways we make sure the wealthy pay a little bit more as an overall share of their wealth and income compared to low-income individuals."





What low-income people pay income taxes?

[ELVIS]

If you think FOX has better information than Infowars or PressTV, well good for you...

Keep drinking your Faux-Aid™

[BigBadBrian]

If you think FOX has better information than Infowars or PressTV, well good for you...

Keep drinking your Faux-Aid™

I read, lisTen, and watch a variety of sources...except knobs like that moron on infowars.

[ELVIS]

Why wouldn't you listen to Alex Jones if you claim to use a variety of sources ??

[ELVIS]

And why is everything you post from CNN, CNN Money or FOX ??

None of your other sources have anything worth sharing ??

[Nickdfresh]

It amazes me how much Democrats hate and are against small business. Downright shameful.

What does this have to do with small business?

You really think wealth should just be inherited by trust-fund douchers unchecked? Don't we already have enough pipelines of money going up to the top 1% as they get fatter?

Really Brian? That's your core issue? The Death Tax and one of the only means dead white rich men have to give something back they can no longer use anyways. Not that they used it much in life...


Nick, you're in intellectual peril if Elvis agrees with you.
He bashes Fox yet reads infowars and watches PressTV. What an inbred Doofus he is.

He really didn't agree with me fully, and you have no problem using his sources or agreeing with him when it suits your beliefs...


anyhow the worth of the ranch doesn't relay the fact of the business overhead. It's quite extensive. It's not like these people have $25 million on hand.

I'm pretty sure they're still doing okay, the last time I checked "overhead" is the cost of doing business. We really don't know much about what they've "got on hand" since they're only saying what they want you to know...

[Nickdfresh]

That, however, is unlikely. Currently, the federal government taxes estates worth $5 million dollars and up at 35 percent. When the Bush-era tax rates expire in January, rates increase to 55 percent on estates of $1 million or more. While some Republicans want to eliminate the death tax entirely, President Obama has proposed a 45 percent rate on estates of $3.5 million and up.

Here's the core issue, 55% on $1M is too much so the Republicans need to work with Obama to get a deal done. Eliminating the death tax entirely is idiotic and a blatant grab for the rich...

[Nickdfresh]

What low-income people pay income taxes?

Payroll taxes? Sales taxes? Fees at the DMV. etc.?

[Satan]

Why the "death tax" should be RESTORED........

http://www.celebritysmackblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/dumb-bitch-hilton.jpg

http://www.1000funfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/George-W-Bush-Funny-Pics-1.jpg

http://southpawbeagle.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/romney-sons.jpg

any questions??

[knuckleboner]

An 'ordinary' American owns a $25 million ranch?

This article is shit.

If he can only earn a small salary then he obviously isn't the man to be running the place.

The truth is no doubt that he chooses to only draw that salary from his business to save on tax and he also takes a dividend.

absolutely. the estate tax - even at the lowest, $1 million exclusion - affects such a tiny proportion of the population. and then only those worth many millions. but it does equal many billions in tax revenue. you get rid of it, and you increase the deficit. unless you "broaden the base," i.e. "increase taxes on those NOT worth millions..."

[tbone888]

So many ways to avoid estate taxes...it always amazes me when politicians think theyre smarter than those that are good at creating wealth and holding on to it.

[Nickdfresh]

If the rich could get around it so easily, it wouldn't be an issue. But forcing them to spend money and sell assets can be good for the economy...

[BigBadBrian]

Payroll taxes? Sales taxes? Fees at the DMV. etc.?

I said income taxes. What you listed aren't income taxes.

[ZahZoo]

An 'ordinary' American owns a $25 million ranch?

This article is shit.

If he can only earn a small salary then he obviously isn't the man to be running the place.

The truth is no doubt that he chooses to only draw that salary from his business to save on tax and he also takes a dividend.

You might want to do a little research to understand American farming/ranch financials...

Say in 1890 great-grandpa bought a 1000 acre ranch for $25 an acre... $25,000 and paid for... jump forward 120 years and that same 1000 acre ranch is now worth $25,000 an acre... now you have a $25 million dollar ranch.

You'd think cattle ranching would be pretty lucrative... nope. Read this:

http://www.montanacowboycollege.com/docs/The%20Economics%20of%20Ranching.pdf

[BigBadBrian]

They can tax personal fortunes of these millionaires/billionaires all they want, I really couldn't care less.

However, when it comes to taxing family businesses passed from generation to generation or other small business income, that's where the line should be drawn. Why is Obama's plane to tax corporations at the 28% rate yet tax these family and/or small businesses at a much higher rate? There should be ONE tax scale for businesses of all size. Legitimate family businesses should not be taxed again just because a primary owner passed away. That's just the government being greedy.

[Nitro Express]

You might want to do a little research to understand American farming/ranch financials...

Say in 1890 great-grandpa bought a 1000 acre ranch for $25 an acre... $25,000 and paid for... jump forward 120 years and that same 1000 acre ranch is now worth $25,000 an acre... now you have a $25 million dollar ranch.

You'd think cattle ranching would be pretty lucrative... nope. Read this:

http://www.montanacowboycollege.com/docs/The%20Economics%20of%20Ranching.pdf

There is no money in free grazing cattle. You can get by but it's not a great living unless of course you like that kind of lifestyle.

[Nitro Express]

What we really need is anti-trust legislation to break up some of these new monopolies and stop providing welfare for the rich in the form of government bailouts. A lot of the rich don't pay any taxes or pay less of a percentage than the middle class do. What we have to realize is a lot of these politicians saying let's get the rich, are rich themselves and are lap dogs for the rich. Usually the new taxes they get approved hurt what's left of the middle class and working class more than the top tiered rich. Obama plays the game you won't pay taxes if you generously support him but he may tax you if you oppose him. He's like Gray Davis in California was. The governor would do nothing for you unless of course you gave him some money.

[Nitro Express]

An 'ordinary' American owns a $25 million ranch?

This article is shit.

If he can only earn a small salary then he obviously isn't the man to be running the place.

The truth is no doubt that he chooses to only draw that salary from his business to save on tax and he also takes a dividend.

This can be the case on ranchland owned by the same family for generations. It was originally purchased cheap but over the decades increased in value. This is the case around here. Ranches here are worth far more in 2012 than they were in 1920.

[Nitro Express]

Actually all this rehtoric on tax the rich is generated by the very rich. They want the land that has been in the hands of other families for generations. They want most the land for themselves and they want to run everyone else back into apartments in cities so you can live like the communists did in Moscow. Just look up UN Agenda 21 if you don't believe me. The Rockefellers, Ted Turner and their ilk won't pay tax and will control even more resources while people that use to enjoy family ranches have it taken from them because the can't afford the taxes. They buy up some politicians and sell the get the rich pitch but in fact, it's the politically connected rich who are stealing everyone elses land using the government officials they have bought to do it.

In the end you still will have an upper class and everyone else will be living in shitty apartments eating shitty government provided food. Not much of a lifestyle.

[FORD]

Yeah, "Agenda 21" the latest teabagger conspiracy nonsense. Now some of these fools are even claiming that the UN is using "mind control" :biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

Oh I'm sure some conspiracy theorists go a bit crazy but Agenda 21 is the UN's plan for the 21st Century and there is a focus on central control of land instead of leaving it up to private property owners and using international treaties to replace national and local laws. The US has always been fingered for being a problem since our constitution is based on individual rights and freedoms instead of a "Big Daddy Knows Best" mentality. Basically we are in a fight over individuals owning and managing their own property vs a central control of property for the so called greater good.

It's not just a right wing fight. Democrats are in it as well.

http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/

[Nickdfresh]

I said income taxes. What you listed aren't income taxes.

Payroll would be "income," brainiac...

[BigBadBrian]

Payroll would be "income," brainiac...

No, they are not the same.

Payroll taxes are the SS and Medicare taxes that comes out of everyone's check and are also taxes an employer pays for an employee (besides the afore mentioned employee payroll taxes).

Income tax is separate and is the withholding and/or payments that must be reconciled with the Federal Government as to the correct amount every year (in the form of a payment or refund).

I'm glad I was able to school you on that. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

No, they are not the same.

Payroll taxes are the SS and Medicare taxes that comes out of everyone's check and are also taxes an employer pays for an employee (besides the afore mentioned employee payroll taxes).

Income tax is separate and is the withholding and/or payments that must be reconciled with the Federal Government as to the correct amount every year (in the form of a payment or refund).

I'm glad I was able to school you on that. :gulp:

Um, payroll taxes are still paid within proportion of income, They're still taxes, and few people working pay no taxes at all...

[BigBadBrian]

Um, payroll taxes are still paid within proportion of income, They're still taxes, and few people working pay no taxes at all...

18% in fact of people of working age. About 50% though, pay no income tax.

[Nickdfresh]

18% in fact of people of working age. About 50% though, pay no income tax.

No, about 54% pay 'income' taxes, another 28% pay payroll taxes. Only seven percent pay no tax as they earn less than $20K, the rest are elderly... (Washington Post)

[BigBadBrian]

No, about 54% pay 'income' taxes, another 28% pay payroll taxes. Only seven percent pay no tax as they earn less than $20K, the rest are elderly... (Washington Post)

Incorrect. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Incorrect. :gulp:

Yes, you are frequently...

[motherchicken]

I see no reason the government should be entitled to a percentage of someones inheritance.

[FORD]

Do you see a reason why Jenna Bush should be living off the money that her great grandfather made from concentration camp slave labor?

[motherchicken]

Do you see a reason why Jenna Bush should be living off the money that her great grandfather made from concentration camp slave labor?
What about people who earned their money and want their children to have it? Not that I believe your BCE propaganda.

[motherchicken]

Do you see a reason why Jenna Bush should be living off the money that her great grandfather made from concentration camp slave labor?
Prescott Bush was accused and cleared of shady financial dealings with Germans in WWII. So what? The Kennedy's are just as bad. Everybody knows Joe got rich bootlegging during the prohibition. I'm sure he had plenty blood on his hands.

[FORD]

Earned their money?

So you consider financing Adolf Hitler and profiting from enslaving and killing Jews to be legitimate income?

Or selling heroin and funding terrorists like Poppy did?

[FORD]

Prescott Bush was accused and cleared of shady financial dealings with Germans in WWII. So what? The Kennedy's are just as bad. Everybody knows Joe got rich bootlegging during the prohibition. I'm sure he had plenty blood on his hands.

And the Kennedys never bitched about paying their taxes either.

Seriously though, you think bootlegging is equivalent to the Holocaust? :headlights:

[motherchicken]

And the Kennedys never bitched about paying their taxes either.



Right. They threw massive parties celebrating getting to pay taxes. And they never cheat on them either.

[motherchicken]

Earned their money?

So you consider financing Adolf Hitler and profiting from enslaving and killing Jews to be legitimate income?


How you exaggerate the facts. Bush might have made some cash dealing with the Nazis but that's far from bankrolling Hitler.

[FORD]

How you exaggerate the facts. Bush might have made some cash dealing with the Nazis but that's far from bankrolling Hitler.

Prescott Bush and his partners at Union Bank were the ones who funded Hitler's rise to power. This was before his investment in the Silesian Steel company which used concentration camp slave labor.

Grandpa Bush was not only well aware that he was financing fascism in Germany, he attempted to finance it HERE as well. He and his partners attempted to overthrow President FDR in a military coup. It only failed because the general they asked to lead the coup, Smedley Butler (USMC) was a TRUE patriot, and he told them to go fuck themselves.

[motherchicken]

Prescott Bush and his partners at Union Bank were the ones who funded Hitler's rise to power. This was before his investment in the Silesian Steel company which used concentration camp slave labor.

Grandpa Bush was not only well aware that he was financing fascism in Germany, he attempted to finance it HERE as well. He and his partners attempted to overthrow President FDR in a military coup. It only failed because the general they asked to lead the coup, Smedley Butler (USMC) was a TRUE patriot, and he told them to go fuck themselves.
Are any of your conspiracy theories based on fact? I've tried to study up on the BCE but it doesn't appear to actually exist outside of your mind. They don't even rate a Wikipedia page.

[LoungeMachine]

I've tried to study up on the BCE but it doesn't appear to actually exist outside of your mind. They don't even rate a Wikipedia page.

:lmao:

Well then, well researched.....

[motherchicken]

:lmao:

Well then, well researched.....
I looked elsewhere. The closest thing I found was a poster of the Bushes with Boss Hoggs picture for Prescott Bush. You'd think there would be tons of info on the BCE if it actually existed. But it doesn't.

[Nickdfresh]

I see no reason the government should be entitled to a percentage of someones inheritance.

It's one of the very few ways to prevent total wealth polarization to the top one or two percent, the kids will still get plenty, and one can argue it may actually create innovation because trust fund kids can't just leech off their super-rich parents...

[FORD]

Are any of your conspiracy theories based on fact? I've tried to study up on the BCE but it doesn't appear to actually exist outside of your mind. They don't even rate a Wikipedia page.

I'll make this one easy for you, sockfucker......

[motherchicken]

It's one of the very few ways to prevent total wealth polarization to the top one or two percent, the kids will still get plenty, and one can argue it may actually create innovation because trust fund kids can't just leech off their super-rich parents...
If my parents were super rich and wanted me to have their money who are you or anyone else but them to say different? I have no problem with the rich getting richer. It's the poor getting poorer that concerns me. The government isn't redistributing that money to the poor. They're redistributing it to other rich people.

[motherchicken]

Ford you can post shit here till the cows come home but it doesn't make it fact. I'm not buying the BCE setting up the Third Reich for fun and profit or the BCE masterminding 9/11 or any of the other shit you say. If there was such an orginization you would know nothing about them. Unless they wanted you to know.

[ELVIS]

Delusions motherchicken, DELUSIONS !!!

[LoungeMachine]

I looked elsewhere. The closest thing I found was a poster of the Bushes with Boss Hoggs picture for Prescott Bush. You'd think there would be tons of info on the BCE if it actually existed. But it doesn't.

Hey, DUMBASS.....

The "BCE" is a nickname, an acronym for BUSH CRIMINAL EMPIRE.

:gulp:

Jesus fucking Christ you're thick.

[Guitar Shark]

In sockfucker's defense, I will admit to searching the internet for "BCE" 10+ years ago or whenever it was that FORD first started spouting that nonsense. Now, it's just mildly amusing.

[cadaverdog]

Hey, DUMBASS.....

The "BCE" is a nickname, an acronym for BUSH CRIMINAL EMPIRE.

:gulp:

Jesus fucking Christ you're thick.
No shit? The Bush Criminal Empire? Couldn't figure that out. All the references I made to the Bushes while talking about the BCE were a coincidence. Dickhead.

[cadaverdog]

In sockfucker's defense, I will admit to searching the internet for "BCE" 10+ years ago or whenever it was that FORD first started spouting that nonsense. Now, it's just mildly amusing.
For such a powerful organization they manage to keep a low profile. Only Ford and a few others he has schooled know anything about them. They all rode together to learn in the same little bus.

[Satan]

Yeah, they have only controlled every Republican presidency since 1952. Really low profile there, mensa.

[cadaverdog]

Yeah, they have only controlled every Republican presidency since 1952. Really low profile there, mensa.
There's one now. It's OK little fella, I'll protect you from that mean old BCE.

[Satan]

There's one now. It's OK little fella, I'll protect you from that mean old BCE.

You couldn't protect your own ass from a toilet paper cut.