For Our UK Friends....Interactive Map Showing Where Bombs Fell In London....

[Hardrock69]

http://bombsight.org/#14/51.4937/-0.1844

[Nitro Express]

I'm amazed they could keep track of all the bomb hits. London took a beating but by bombing London it took the pressure off the airfields and bought some time for the Royal Air Force. The Brits were lucky they had radar to know where the Luftwaffe was coming in and good airplanes. Both the Hurricane and Spitfire were excellent aircraft and actually fairly easy to fly. The BF 109 on the other hand with it's narrow landing gear and high torque engine was an accident waiting to happen. The Germans lost more planes to landing and take-off accidents than they did in actual combat. It was like someone designed a fast sleek airplane and then had an afterthought gee, we need to land this thing somehow.

[Nickdfresh]

....The BF 109 on the other hand with it's narrow landing gear and high torque engine was an accident waiting to happen. The Germans lost more planes to landing and take-off accidents than they did in actual combat. It was like someone designed a fast sleek airplane and then had an afterthought gee, we need to land this thing somehow.

No. No they didn't lose more aircraft to accidents, it's a myth. And many of the accidents the Luftwaffe did have were operationally related such as planes coming back low on fuel from extended missions the Me109 was never designed for...

[Nitro Express]

Apparently they lost 10% to accidents resulting from the landing gear design. It wasn't a problem with experienced pilots so much as it was with rookie pilots. But during the Battle of Britain the British were outnumbered and had to get rookie pilots up to speed quick. Having easier planes to fly was a huge advantage. A BF 109 with an experienced capable pilot was a force to be reckoned with but it wasn't the best plane to have to get a bunch of new airmen in the fight quick.


Because of the large ground angle caused by the long legs, forward visibility while on the ground was very poor, a problem exacerbated by the sideways-opening canopy. This meant that pilots had to taxi in a sinuous fashion which also imposed stresses on the splayed undercarriage legs. Ground accidents were a problem with rookie pilots, especially during the later stages of the war when pilots received less training before being sent to operational units.[20] At least 10% of all Bf 109s were lost in takeoff and landing accidents, 1,500 of which occurred between 1939 and 1941.[21] The installation of a fixed "tall" tailwheel on some of the late G-10s and 14s and the K-series helped alleviate the problem to a large extent.[22]

[LoungeMachine]

No. No they didn't lose more aircraft to accidents, it's a myth. And many of the accidents the Luftwaffe did have were operationally related such as planes coming back low on fuel from extended missions the Me109 was never designed for...

Don't argue with a guy who flew for the Germans in WWII, dude...

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Apparently they lost 10% to accidents resulting from the landing gear design. It wasn't a problem with experienced pilots so much as it was with rookie pilots. But during the Battle of Britain the British were outnumbered and had to get rookie pilots up to speed quick. Having easier planes to fly was a huge advantage. A BF 109 with an experienced capable pilot was a force to be reckoned with but it wasn't the best plane to have to get a bunch of new airmen in the fight quick.

The British RAF was outnumbered, and they were under stress when the Luftwaffe was hitting the airfields. But what is often ignored is that the Luftwaffe suffered serious losses in both Poland and France despite seemingly walk-over victories there. The Luftwaffe had been limited to a tactical support force due to the limitations of German industry and was now waging a strategic air campaign for it was never designed or trained to wage at the limits of its aircrafts' ranges and payloads, aircraft flown by exhausted pilots who had been in near continuous combat for months. The Me-109 could only stay over Britain for like 15 minutes, and many were lost simply crashing low on fuel...

And 1,500 accidents is still a drop in the bucket compared to operationally related losses. The RAF, USAAF, and Red Air Forces probably had similar rates with various aircraft....

[Seshmeister]

It's also forgotten that a bunch of Polish aircrew escaped and fought in the Battle of Britain shooting down 200 German planes.

[vandeleur]

I read up a bit on the battle of britain as an alternative to using Iron maiden songs about it as my frame of reference :D

It was a surprise how many different nations were involved in the raf defence of britain.
Another factor in "keeping score " was that both sides exagerated how many they shot down and how many planes they actually had . Both sides overestimating and underestimating each other at the same time .
Enough to say both sides suffered horrendous losses of brave people on both sides.

One thing that may surprise some people is how brave the ordinary (or extra ordinary ) man in the street was when these raids/battles were happening.
I was born in the street next to the enterance to swan hunters ship yard which the germans tried to bomb in to sumbmission.
When we were little we used to play in all the Anderson air raid shelters that had been turned into garden sheds. People just got on with their lives under terrible dangerous conditions .
I asked my grand parents about it and they were totally non plussed , it was like " what else were you meant to do"

[BigBadBrian]

The Luftwaffe had been limited to a tactical support force due to the limitations of German industry and was now waging a strategic air campaign for it was never designed or trained to wage at the limits of its aircrafts' ranges and payloads, aircraft flown by exhausted pilots who had been in near continuous combat for months.

Let's just say also that Great Britain was fortunate that the Luftwaffe was in the hands of that idiot Goring and never produced any 4 engine heavy bombers for use en masse. They had several prototypes, but none came off the production line in any significant quantity.

[Nickdfresh]

It's also forgotten that a bunch of Polish aircrew escaped and fought in the Battle of Britain shooting down 200 German planes.

Here's my Nitro Express moment: my coworker's father was one of the commanders in the squadron...

[Nickdfresh]

Let's just say also that Great Britain was fortunate that the Luftwaffe was in the hands of that idiot Goring and never produced any 4 engine heavy bombers for use en masse. They had several prototypes, but none came off the production line in any significant quantity.

Göring was stupid old cunt, but he had some able underlings. The real problem was German economy simply could not produce enough four engine bombers with everything else as rearming had been prohibitively expensive. This was also compounded by the fact that the Luftwaffe was created almost from scratch only five or six years earlier, making it very modern in comparison to the French Armée de l'Air and the RAF. Four engined bombers were horrendously expensive compared even to twin engined ones and twin engined bombers were good enough to deal with countries bordering Germany in 1940. But more realistic senior commanders like Ernst Udet realized early on that the Luftwaffe could never sustain a strategic air war without vastly more production becoming available. It's one of the reasons he ended up committing suicide because he realized that after a while, Göring was a blusterous liar who favored other blustery liars.

It's also the reason Hitler ordered the invasion of the Soviet Union, because the Germans believed their only hope against the industrial juggernaut that was the United States and the inevitable Anglo-American Alliance was seizing the USSR's 'means of production.' This was not only completely unrealistic, it was also ironic as the Soviets were able to move their factories to places like Tank'ograd in Western Russia and Siberia beyond the range of most German bombers - the industry Germany hoped to use to make four and even six engined bombers. Adam Tooze has a great book on all this called The Wages of Destruction....

[Kristy]

Wow. What useful modern information that was, LardRock

[Kristy]

Let's just say also that Great Britain was fortunate that the Luftwaffe was in the hands of that idiot Goring and never produced any 4 engine heavy bombers for use en masse. They had several prototypes, but none came off the production line in any significant quantity.

You sure about that?

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/fw200.jpg

Try learning your history before speaking it, fucknuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200

And it was Hitler who was too stupid to use it as a bomber.

[Kristy]

The British RAF was outnumbered, and they were under stress when the Luftwaffe was hitting the airfields...

What are you? Charles Dickens of the History Channel?

[BigBadBrian]

You sure about that?

Try learning your history before speaking it, fucknuts.


And it was Hitler who was too stupid to use it as a bomber.

You Dingbat, read my statement again, particularly the part where I said "never produced any 4 engine heavy bombers for use en masse. They had several prototypes, but none came off the production line in any significant quantity."

A production of 276 units is NOTHING. And as Nick said, the decision not to equip the Luftwaffe was both a philosophical one and one based on production capacities. Stay out of a thread you know nothing about, which is most of them.

:fighting0056:

[Kristy]

The Condor was produced "en masse" before Hitler killed it, you sad little man. And it was never a fucking prototype.

Seriously go find an American flag flying from the highest flagpole in your area, climb it and then fuck yourself on it.

[BigBadBrian]

The Condor was produced "en masse" before Hitler killed it,



No it wasn't...you're wrong as usual. I own your skanky, lesbian, psychotic ass once again. :gun:

[Kristy]

Yes it was. The Condor was a brilliantly designed aircraft (better than anything Boeing ever came up with) originally for passenger use and it was Hitler (who did not like Kurt Tank), not Goring who decided not to use it to its full potential. That aircarft alone if properly developed as a long range 4-engine bomber could have completely devastated London. Again, please go fuck yourself.

[Nickdfresh]

What are you? Charles Dickens of the History Channel?

The History Channel never puts that shit on anymore...

[Kristy]

I know. It's all doom and gloom anymore. That's why you're here to save it.

[Nickdfresh]

The Condor was produced "en masse" before Hitler killed it, you sad little man. And it was never a fucking prototype.

Seriously go find an American flag flying from the highest flagpole in your area, climb it and then fuck yourself on it.

The Condor was useless as a long range strategic bomber (under armed and light bomb load) and those few that were made were more effectively used as a long range maritime patrol and anti-shipping strike aircraft. It was basically a converted airliner and there were less than 300 built. There were more B-17's used on individual raids than the entire Condor production run...

In fact the Germans did produce a long range strategic bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177) that had twin engines, but still couldn't produce enough, the plane had many teething problems, the idiots that ran the Luftwaffe wanted everything to be dive bombing capable, and by the time it was online Germany was losing the war and had to concentrate on defensive capabilities like fighters...

[Nickdfresh]

I know. It's all doom and gloom anymore. That's why you're here to save it.

Well maybe the shows on box wine and pills will cheer you up? :)

[FORD]

The History Channel never puts that shit on anymore...

That's because the "History" Channel is owned by Hearst Publishing. And they are not (nor have they ever been) in the business of history or facts. Just propaganda and yellow journalism. They had that shit perfected years before Rupert Murdoch was crapped out of his mother's ass somewhere in the Outback.

[FORD]

I know. It's all doom and gloom anymore. That's why you're here to save it.

What's it all about? Guess it just affects your mood.....

[Nickdfresh]

Yes it was. The Condor was a brilliantly designed aircraft (better than anything Boeing ever came up with) originally for passenger use and it was Hitler (who did not like Kurt Tank), not Goring who decided not to use it to its full potential. That aircarft alone if properly developed as a long range 4-engine bomber could have completely devastated London. Again, please go fuck yourself.

So brilliant that a single Hurricane or Royal Navy Wildcat could shoot it down? Um, Boeing made bombers that worked, like the B-29. And of course the B-36, which would have carried atomic bombs across the Atlantic to Germany had the war gone on into 1946 or 47'...

Maybe you should get back to your Betty Crocker Oven set and bake some happy-brownies or something?

[Kristy]

The Condor was useless as a long range strategic bomber (under armed and light bomb load) and those few that were made were more effectively used as a long range maritime patrol and anti-shipping strike aircraft. It was basically a converted airliner and there were less than 300 built. There were more B-17's used on individual raids than the entire Condor production run...

In fact the Germans did produce a long range strategic bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177) that had twin engines, but still couldn't produce enough, the plane had many teething problems, the idiots that ran the Luftwaffe wanted everything to be dive bombing capable, and by the time it was online Germany was losing the war and had to concentrate on defensive capabilities like fighters...

The ME110? I didn't click the link. That was a piece of shit.

[Kristy]

Maybe you should get back to your Betty Crocker Oven set and bake some happy-brownies or something?

And what, leave you to Google and Wiki browse for further pseudo-intelligence you can post here?

[Nickdfresh]

And what, leave you to Google and Wiki browse for further pseudo-intelligence you can post here?

Says the chick who obviously used both and provided a Wiki link. You really are a tad delusional...

[LoungeMachine]

Says the chick who obviously used both and provided a Wiki link. You really are a tad delusional...

"She" is the classic case of projection

:gulp:

How that fits into her day job as a hooker I'll leave to the professionals.

[Kristy]

Still using Jungian psychology to prove what you don't have, eh, LardMachine?

[Kristy]

Says the chick who obviously used both and provided a Wiki link. You really are a tad delusional...

Yes. Unlike you I quote where I get my info from.

[Nickdfresh]

Yes. Unlike you I quote where I get my info from.

Well genius, so do I. Reread this post at your leisure and when you're again lucid...


Göring was stupid old cunt, but he had some able underlings. The real problem was German economy simply could not produce enough four engine bombers with everything else as rearming had been prohibitively expensive. This was also compounded by the fact that the Luftwaffe was created almost from scratch only five or six years earlier, making it very modern in comparison to the French Armée de l'Air and the RAF. Four engined bombers were horrendously expensive compared even to twin engined ones and twin engined bombers were good enough to deal with countries bordering Germany in 1940. But more realistic senior commanders like Ernst Udet realized early on that the Luftwaffe could never sustain a strategic air war without vastly more production becoming available. It's one of the reasons he ended up committing suicide because he realized that after a while, Göring was a blusterous liar who favored other blustery liars.

It's also the reason Hitler ordered the invasion of the Soviet Union, because the Germans believed their only hope against the industrial juggernaut that was the United States and the inevitable Anglo-American Alliance was seizing the USSR's 'means of production.' This was not only completely unrealistic, it was also ironic as the Soviets were able to move their factories to places like Tank'ograd in Western Russia and Siberia beyond the range of most German bombers - the industry Germany hoped to use to make four and even six engined bombers. Adam Tooze has a great book on all this called The Wages of Destruction....

There, I enlarged it for you in case it's all blurry and shit and you're seeing things... :)

[Kristy]

Says the chick who obviously used both and provided a Wiki link. You really are a tad delusional...

Oh, I'm delusional? You fucking piggyback on 90% of your post from the likes of Wiki or Google. You just rewrite them for BrainDeadBrian knowing he's too stupid to notice.

[Nickdfresh]

Oh, I'm delusional? You fucking piggyback on 90% of your post from the likes of Wiki or Google. You just rewrite them for BrainDeadBrian knowing he's too stupid to notice.

LOL Okay, I haven't read dozens of books on WWII and have no idea what I'm talking about. You win. I admit it! It's all an endless Wiki-fest! Well, fuck me then, to bad there's no Wiki that can help you from making idiotic posts on everything from erratic music choices to making asinine comments making yourself look like a fucktarded meltdown case. But good job finding the Condor by using Wiki, you dumb bitch. But the thing is that I knew what a fucking Condor was when you were still fingering yourself to episodes of Hannah Montana and already knew it wasn't in anyway comparable to a real four engined bomber. That alone proves how absurd your Wiki and Google it all comment is. Because if I Google and Wiki everything for bullshit, you're a fucking fail at it and a pretty pathetic try-hard one at that!

I've never claimed to be an expert on specific weapons systems like Luftwaffe aircraft and find overly reading about specific weapons (with the possible exception of American tanks of the time period) to be rather boring. But I know enough not to pull shit out of my ass and vomit it up on a message board in order to win some bullshit trollish semantic dick-contest you seem to so love to engage in. Do I use Google? Yep! Have I read Wiki entries (and done some minor rewrites and additions)? Yep! Who gives a fuck!?! But I have more content in PDF-document books regarding WWII I've downloaded from 'The Leavenworth Papers' (alone) than you've ever read of anything, period!

But if logging onto the internet and engaging is asshole, attention-whore flame'athons presents a distraction from your erratic, drug addled life and prevents you from stabbing your roommate or boiling your ex-boyfriend's pets, well good on'ya!

[jhale667]

LOL Okay, I haven't read dozens of books on WWII and have no idea what I'm talking about. You win. I admit it! It's all an endless Wiki-fest! Well, fuck me then, to bad there's no Wiki that can help you from making idiotic posts on everything from erratic music choices to making asinine comments making yourself look like a fucktarded meltdown case. But good job finding the Condor by using Wiki, you dumb bitch. But the thing is that I knew what a fucking Condor was when you were still fingering yourself to episodes of Hannah Montana and already knew it wasn't in anyway comparable to a real four engined bomber. That alone proves how absurd your Wiki and Google it all comment is. Because if I Google and Wiki everything for bullshit, you're a fucking fail at it and a pretty pathetic try-hard one at that!

I've never claimed to be an expert on specific weapons systems like Luftwaffe aircraft and find overly reading about specific weapons (with the possible exception of American tanks of the time period) to be rather boring. But I know enough not to pull shit out of my ass and vomit it up on a message board in order to win some bullshit trollish semantic dick-contest you seem to so love to engage in. Do I use Google? Yep! Have I read Wiki entries (and done some minor rewrites and additions)? Yep! Who gives a fuck!?! But I have more content in PDF-document books regarding WWII I've downloaded from 'The Leavenworth Papers' (alone) than you've ever read of anything, period!

But if logging onto the internet and engaging is asshole, attention-whore flame'athons presents a distraction from your erratic, drug addled life and prevents you from stabbing your roommate or boiling your ex-boyfriend's pets, well good on'ya!


Oh, SNAP! :popcorn:

[Nickdfresh]

If anyone is really interested in Luftwaffe bombers, here's a five year old thread from another site I mod:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?4618-Luftwaffe-Heavy-bombers-amp-transports

[Kristy]

L You win.

Thanks. The rest of you spiteful self-aggrandizing shit I never bothered to read.

[Nitro Express]

I think World War III just started.:biggrin:

[Hardrock69]

I laughed hysterically at seeing Bri go after the troll. I am still laffing. :lmao:

Shut up, Krusty. Go post to all your psycho-bitch friends at the forums at www.iamafuckingcunt.com.

[Nickdfresh]

Thanks. The rest of you spiteful self-aggrandizing shit I never bothered to read.

I've been told!

[DavidLeeNatra]

we can all be glad that Göring and Hitler were so stupid not to see the importance of modern planes and other weapons. they had the first jets, the first plane which was made of one wing (which became the stealth-bomber later) and the V2. they easily could have had the bomb, too. we had some good technology here back then.

[BigBadBrian]

Oh, I'm delusional? You fucking piggyback on 90% of your post from the likes of Wiki or Google. You just rewrite them for BrainDeadBrian knowing he's too stupid to notice.

Unlike you, I know Nick is an avid student of history, particularly military history, as am I. He's a mod at a particular history website and while I don't always agree with him (usually do, though), I will at least give him a listen. You, on the other hand, post just to argue.

[BigBadBrian]

we can all be glad that Göring and Hitler were so stupid not to see the importance of modern planes and other weapons. they had the first jets, the first plane which was made of one wing (which became the stealth-bomber later) and the V2. they easily could have had the bomb, too. we had some good technology here back then.

That's very true. We can also be glad Hitler chose to the commander-in-chief of the armed forces instead of someone competent like von Manstein (who was considered by his colleagues to be brilliant).

[binnie]

I heard that Jimmy Page used some parts of a German bomber to make the amps he used to record the first three Led Zeppelin records.......

[jhale667]

Unlike you, I know Nick is an avid student of history, particularly military history, as am I. He's a mod at a particular history website and while I don't always agree with him (usually do, though), I will at least give him a listen. You, on the other hand, post just to argue.



I fucking hate to agree with you...but in this case I do.

[DavidLeeNatra]

That's very true. We can also be glad Hitler chose to the commander-in-chief of the armed forces instead of someone competent like von Manstein (who was considered by his colleagues to be brilliant).


fucking hell...we finally agree on something... :doh:

[Nickdfresh]

I heard that Jimmy Page used some parts of a German bomber to make the amps he used to record the first three Led Zeppelin records.......

It would be very ironic if it were a Condor. :) But it must have been made from parts from one of the twin engined ones like the He-111, Ju-88 or Do-17 shot down during the Blitz...

[BITEYOASS]

I find it crazy that the whole Luftwaffe managed to miss White Hart Lane entirely. They pilots were so damned angry about jews that they couldn't keep a steady hand on the controls. Mazel Tov muthafucka! Yid Army FTW!

[Nitro Express]

we can all be glad that Göring and Hitler were so stupid not to see the importance of modern planes and other weapons. they had the first jets, the first plane which was made of one wing (which became the stealth-bomber later) and the V2. they easily could have had the bomb, too. we had some good technology here back then.

Goring and Hitler were nothing more than gangsters. It always amazed me a country with so many talented and educated people could get duped to that level. Germany never recovered from World War I and a bad economic situation makes people desperate. I don't think we learned our lessons from Nazi Germany either. The upcoming generations seem very naive when it comes to history which means, they probably will repeat it again.

[Hardrock69]

1. Jimmy Page did not build his own amps. So the rumour about him using parts of bombers to build his amps is not true.

2. We ARE lucky that the commander in chief of Germany's military was not a genius, but an idiot madman.

3. Bri and Nick....the enemy of my enemy is my friend. :hee:

All politics aside, Bri, at least you have an opinions, and try to rationally post about them.....as part of the Roth Army.
You are NOT a troll but a member of the Roth Army. Don't think I don't at least recognize that. ;)

[Nitro Express]

1. Jimmy Page did not build his own amps. So the rumour about him using parts of bombers to build his amps is not true.

2. We ARE lucky that the commander in chief of Germany's military was not a genius, but an idiot madman.

3. Bri and Nick....the enemy of my enemy is my friend. :hee:

All politics aside, Bri, at least you have an opinions, and try to rationally post about them.....as part of the Roth Army.
You are NOT a troll but a member of the Roth Army. Don't think I don't at least recognize that. ;)

I always read Pagie used a little Supro amp in the early days and then went to Marshall stacks later. The only guitarist I know that had anything from a bomber on state was EVH. He had his Univox echo units in a surplus WWII bomb.

[Hardrock69]

Yes...he had it when I saw them in Seattle in '78.

[Sensible Shoes]

I am SO glad we can derail every thread and turn it into a useless battle.

[Kristy]

Unlike you, I know Nick is an avid student of history, particularly military history, as am I. He's a mod at a particular history website and while I don't always agree with him (usually do, though), I will at least give him a listen. You, on the other hand, post just to argue.

Whoa there, BrainDeadBrian, when was the last time you saw your therapist/social worker? Ask them to see if they can get your medication altered to slow down some of your delusional, racing thoughts.

[Kristy]

I find it crazy that the whole Luftwaffe managed to miss White Hart Lane entirely. They pilots were so damned angry about jews that they couldn't keep a steady hand on the controls. Mazel Tov muthafucka! Yid Army FTW!

Just think if the Nazi's ever invaded Florida.

[Angel]

I am SO glad we can derail every thread and turn it into a useless battle.

Just like old times, eh?

[FORD]

Just think if the Nazi's ever invaded Florida.

They have been running the state since the late 50s. :(

[ELVIS]

How can you say that ??

[LoungeMachine]

Whoa there, BrainDeadBrian, when was the last time you saw your therapist/social worker? Ask them to see if they can get your medication altered to slow down some of your delusional, racing thoughts.

Yet more projection.....

:gulp:

You're a street-walking cliche

[FORD]

How can you say that ??

Because the ones who funded the original Nazis (the BCE) have literally been running Florida since then. It's been the BCE/CIA base of operations for drug smuggling, fucking around with Cuba and South America, etc.

That's why there's so much corruption there to the point where the only honest politician in that entire penis-shaped state is Alan Grayson.