Official Roth Army 2012 Faith/Belief/Religion poll

[FORD]

Lot of talk about faith, religion, war on Christmas, atheists, and such lately, so time to take a poll.

Where do you stand?

[Little Texan]

Where's the poll?

[vandeleur]

This is gonna get messy :biggrin:

[Little Texan]

THERE'S the poll.

[FORD]

I made this one a "multiple choice" for those whose beliefs are more of a "combo plate", like a Christian who goes to sweat lodges, for example.

[Seshmeister]

This new 'Christian' tag is a bit fake don't you think?

How can you put the crazy woo of Mormonism in with the Baptists or the weirdo JW cult with the Catholics?

This is a technique invented in America in order to have strength in dwindling numbers against the advancing hoards of the sane... :)

At the same time Agnostics and Atheists are put in different buckets? Gerrymandering! :)

[Seshmeister]

I made this one a "multiple choice" for those whose beliefs are more of a "combo plate", like a Christian who goes to sweat lodges, for example.

A test scenario for anyone who clicks on Christian or Jew.

If you heard a voice in your head which said 'This is God and I want you to kill your children to prove you fear me!' and you believed it was God but think you wouldn't kill them - you should really check the Agnostic box as well.

[philouze]

If you heard a voice in your head which said 'This is God and I want you to kill your children to prove you fear me!' and you believed it was God but think you wouldn't kill them - you should really check the Agnostic box as well.

I did.

[Nitro Express]

This new 'Christian' tag is a bit fake don't you think?

How can you put the crazy woo of Mormonism in with the Baptists or the weirdo JW cult with the Catholics?

This is a technique invented in America in order to have strength in dwindling numbers against the advancing hoards of the sane... :)

At the same time Agnostics and Atheists are put in different buckets? Gerrymandering! :)

Actually certain groups in the religious category will end up taking over. They have lots of children while the so called sane are aging and not reproducing themselves. At the end of the day, those who breed win. Something the Mormons and certain groups of muslims are very good at doing.

[BigBadBrian]

This new 'Christian' tag is a bit fake don't you think?

How can you put the crazy woo of Mormonism in with the Baptists or the weirdo JW cult with the Catholics?



Agreed, Mormonism absolutely positively IS NOT a part of or a denomination of Christianity.

[Nitro Express]

I made this one a "multiple choice" for those whose beliefs are more of a "combo plate", like a Christian who goes to sweat lodges, for example.

Most people have no idea what they believe in. Most people claim the religion they were born into unless of course they openly denounce it. Many choose not to so they don't offend grandma or get booted from the family business. Religion is more social than actually any real kind of individual belief. It's an organizational node more than anything. If it's not religious dogma its something else like a political movement.

[Nitro Express]

Agreed, Mormonism absolutely positively IS NOT a part of or a denomination of Christianity.

Mormonism is a nickname. The true name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Jesus Christ is right in the the tittle of the church which means it's a christian church. Just because other christian churches don't agree with mormon doctrine does not mean it's not a christian church. A christian church is any church that worships Christ and in the mormon church, Christ is the son of god and the redeemer. So it's a christian church.

[Zing!]

True story: The last time I went into the doctor, the dude at the check in was asking me the usual questions for insurance purposes - except this time he asked me, "Religion?" I was rather shocked as I wasn't expecting the question. I kind of hesitated for a second and then said, "Why do you need to know that?" He was casual about it and simply replied it's marked 'C' on the form. I said, "What does 'C' stand for?" Now it was his turn to pause. He scratched his head and said, "I don't know. Are you Catholic?" I said, "I used to be, but that was decades ago." He replied, "Maybe it stands for Christian? Is that correct?" I only shrugged my shoulders. The fellow took a closer look at the form and said, "It has Undecided on here, how does that sound?" To which I replied, "That's probably as close as I'm going to get. Let's go with that."

[Seshmeister]

It's odd to me that you have the same forms in children's medicine.

Saying a baby is a catholic is like saying it's a Conservative or a Marxist.

[Zing!]

We would never force that distinction upon our kids. Drives my mother-in-law nuts. When she asks us, "But what church do they belong to? What do you want them to be?" I always answer:

"A good person."

[ToraToraTora]

Wheres the Jedi Knight option? May the Farce be with you.

[Little Texan]

Aren't we a bunch of heathens? :biggrin:



Atheist
3 33.33%

Agnostic
5 55.56%

[FORD]

I'll admit, I'm surprised by the results so far.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Aren't we a bunch of heathens? :biggrin:



Atheist
3 33.33%

Agnostic
5 55.56%


Or rather, we use our common sense....

[lesfunk]

You left out "Musician"

[lesfunk]

I mean... "Failed musician" sorry

[ashstralia]

because of the tax free status, i'm gonna start 'the church of beer and salt & vinegar chips'.

sunday worship will consist of whatever sporting event is on the tv that day.

[FORD]

because of the tax free status, i'm gonna start 'the church of beer and salt & vinegar chips'.

sunday worship will consist of whatever sporting event is on the tv that day.

A church with beer? Consider myself a cardinal! (I'm assuming you already declared yourself Pope)

[ashstralia]

ehh, no biggie to me FORD. you can be head honcho; you're more than qualified. i'll just deliver the occasional impassioned sermon, then jump in my Rolls Royce with the concubines. :biggrin:

[cadaverdog]

I believe the majority of people even regular church goers are agnostic. I think it was less fashionable to say you were or appear to be an atheist or agnostic even if you were years ago. I lean toward the concept that religion was invented by some wise old bastards to keep people in line and not give in to their natural instincts. If everyone was positive this is it do what ya want and no paying for it later things might get shittier than they already are. Then again if all religion was proved fiction there would be less to kill each other.

[FORD]

This new 'Christian' tag is a bit fake don't you think?

How can you put the crazy woo of Mormonism in with the Baptists or the weirdo JW cult with the Catholics?

This is a technique invented in America in order to have strength in dwindling numbers against the advancing hoards of the sane... :)

At the same time Agnostics and Atheists are put in different buckets? Gerrymandering! :)

Only 10 available slots on the poll. There are doctrinal differences between Catholics/Protestants/Mormons/Jehova Witnesses/etc, but they all claim a belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Son of God.

I put Atheists and Agnostics as seperate categories because the Atheist believes there is no God, while the agnostic doesn't know, or likely care, one way or the other.

[ashstralia]

9273


i have one of these on the back of my car.

[DONNIEP]

ehh, no biggie to me FORD. you can be head honcho; you're more than qualified. i'll just deliver the occasional impassioned sermon, then jump in my Rolls Royce with the concubines. :biggrin:

Count me in. I want to be Pastor of Poontang and minister to all the 18 and up misguided young women who need my proper spiritual guidance :)

[vandeleur]

9273


i have one of these on the back of my car.

I like those when I see them I always think they look cool and piss certain people off ... Which is always a result .

[Angel]

Count me in. I want to be Pastor of Poontang and minister to all the 18 and up misguided young women who need my proper spiritual guidance :)

I'm his assistant. ;):D

[cadaverdog]

Count me in. I want to be Pastor of Poontang and minister to all the 18 and up misguided young women who need my proper spiritual guidance :)
Fords inside knowledge of the goings on of the BCE would preclude him from making it as a public figure. They would never allow it. Unless they used him as a conduit of misinformation. Come to think of it that's a good description of him now.

[ashstralia]

I like those when I see them I always think they look cool and piss certain people off ... Which is always a result .

should be standard kit on a landcruiser, van. it looks like a factory inclusion.. ;)

[DONNIEP]

I'm his assistant. ;):D

Lesbians are welcome - as long as I get to watch!! :biggrin:

[vandeleur]

I have that written on my door mat at home :biggrin:

[DONNIEP]

Class :)

[Sensible Shoes]

A church with beer? Consider myself a cardinal! (I'm assuming you already declared yourself Pope)

The Catholic Church has wine - so why not a church of beer? (Most of the Protestants use grape juice for communion.)

[DONNIEP]

Scientology - that just sounds cool. Plus they got alien gods with interstellar DC 10s loaded with nuclear bombs!! It's almost like Star Trek!!

[ashstralia]

Scientology - that just sounds cool. Plus they got alien gods with interstellar DC 10s loaded with nuclear bombs!! It's almost like Star Trek!!
Yeah, except they should pay us to be a member. Then it'd really go apeshit!!

[vandeleur]

Scientology - that just sounds cool. Plus they got alien gods with interstellar DC 10s loaded with nuclear bombs!! It's almost like Star Trek!!

Yeah but you gotta be friends with Tom cruise and he is s bit creepy when he ain't in a film .

[FORD]

The Catholic Church has wine - so why not a church of beer? (Most of the Protestants use grape juice for communion.)

Yeah, I know..... I grew up as a Baptist :(

[DONNIEP]

Yeah, except they should pay us to be a member. Then it'd really go apeshit!!

Yeah, well it is kinda expensive to reach enlightenment. But you get superpowers!! :)

[Sensible Shoes]

Yeah, I know..... I grew up as a Baptist :(

Well that explains a lot! :biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

I put Atheists and Agnostics as seperate categories because the Atheist believes there is no God, while the agnostic doesn't know, or likely care, one way or the other.

Just to be a pedant again about this but as an atheist I don't know there is no god because that is unknowable. I don't believe there is especially in the terms described in organised religions, but I can't know.

[Little Texan]

The Catholic Church has wine - so why not a church of beer? (Most of the Protestants use grape juice for communion.)

I've never understood the communion thing. When I was a kid, it just meant that I got to eat a stale cracker and a little sip of grape juice, but as I got older and started to really think deeper about religious subject matter, I realized how fucked up communion is in that it is nothing more than symbolic cannibalism! This cracker represents the body of Christ, now eat up! This grape juice represents the blood of Christ, now drink up!

[DONNIEP]

I've never understood the communion thing. When I was a kid, it just meant that I got to eat a stale cracker and a little sip of grape juice, but as I got older and started to really think deeper about religious subject matter, I realized how fucked up communion is in that it is nothing more than symbolic cannibalism! This cracker represents the body of Christ, now eat up! This grape juice represents the blood of Christ, now drink up!

Well, technically Jesus was a zombie...

[Little Texan]

Well, technically Jesus was a zombie...

So was Lazarus.

[FORD]

Just to be a pedant again about this but as an atheist I don't know there is no god because that is unknowable. I don't believe there is especially in the terms described in organised religions, but I can't know.

If you don't know, then aren't you more of an agnostic than an atheist?

It's sort of like Mike Malloy, whom I obviously have a great deal of respect for. He calls himself an atheist, but makes frequent references to things like "God reaching down and pinching off teabaggers heads, and throwing them into Hell so the demons can play soccer with them". He's joking, obviously, but even to make the joke work, you have to at least entertain the possibility that God, Hell, and demons actually might exist.

Then of course you have that small minority of fundagelical atheists, who not only KNOW that there's no God, they're going to make damn sure you know it too, and they won't rest until every last mention of God is removed from the public eye. For these guys, their lack of religion has become a religion in and of itself. Which seems to defeat the whole point of being an atheist.

Full disclosure - I don't ever see myself as an atheist, but I've definitely come a long way from my Baptist upbringing. I guess if I had to label myself at the moment, it would be "spiritual without any use for organized religion". Which is another option I would have added if this poll had more than 10 slots.

[Kristy]

9273


i have one of these on the back of my car.

Fucking yuppie.

[ashstralia]

Haven't had your angry degrading fuck today?

:)

[Jesus Christ]

Well, technically Jesus was a zombie...

But I did not eateth brains, My son! :jesuslol:


And as far as the poll goes...

King of the Jews, founder of Christianity.

[jhale667]

Haven't had your angry degrading fuck today?

:)

She doesn't hook, er...work afternoons, dude. :biggrin:

[DONNIEP]

But I did not eateth brains, My son! :jesuslol:


And as far as the poll goes...

King of the Jews, founder of Christianity.

I knew the zombie thing would bring you out Lord :)

[ashstralia]

Yeah, the time difference always gets me. But the ones in the park here will give you a $20 blowy anytime...

[jhale667]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/382078_398106360263744_1306652785_n.jpg

[DavidLeeNatra]

where is Elvis when you need him... :biggrin:

:elvis:

[Guitar Shark]

Look for the nearest trailer park...

[LoungeMachine]

Agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.....

:gulp:

I only wish those who claim to be such followers of Christ actually practiced what he preached.

[envy_me]

Agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.....

:gulp:

I only wish those who claim to be such followers of Christ actually practiced what he preached.

Omg, that's about what I am :-)

[jhale667]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/598387_447196388663153_764009398_n.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.....


It figures. :gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.....

It figures.


Omg, that's about what I am :-)

Ditto.

[ELVIS]

where is Elvis when you need him... :biggrin:

:elvis:

Universal Studios...

[ZahZoo]

Should have had a category... Recovering Catholic trending Agnostic...

[DLR Bridge]

Should have had a category... Recovering Catholic trending Agnostic...

Or half assed Catholic who's following the wishes of his wife.

It's a lot easier just believing in the Four Agreements.

1. Be impeccable with your word.
2. Don’t take anything personally.
3. Don’t make assumptions.
4. Always do your best.

[ELVIS]

And BTW, I'm sure it's quite offensive to some to lump "Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc." in with Christianity...

[Angel]

It figures.



Ditto.

What's wrong with that?

[Zing!]

Should have had a category... Recovering Catholic trending Agnostic...

I like that... Recovering Catholic. Might have to slip that into conversation over the holidays.

[ZahZoo]

And BTW, I'm sure it's quite offensive to some to lump "Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc." in with Christianity...

Why not..? All them dogs got fleas!!

[ELVIS]

Then lump all faiths together...

[LoungeMachine]

It figures. :gulp:

Thanks!!!

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Then lump all faiths together...

They have more in common than differences.

:gulp:

[Satan]

Where's the option for Satanism? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d085.gif

[ELVIS]

You listed it several times...


::elvis:

[Angel]

I fully believe had the first settlers in this country adopted First Nations spiritual beliefs instead of attempting cultural genocide this world would be a much better place.


Hiy Hiy

[jhale667]

I fully believe had the first settlers in this country adopted First Nations spiritual beliefs instead of attempting cultural genocide this world would be a much better place.


Hiy Hiy


They certainly wouldn't have thought god had singled them out because of their whiteness to take over the place...

[jhale667]

And BTW, I'm sure it's quite offensive to some to lump "Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc." in with Christianity...



Too bad. You can pretty much make the arguments against Mormonism, etc. but Protestant, Fundagelical snobbery against Catholicism? Fuck that.

[Angel]

They certainly wouldn't have thought god had singled them out because of their whiteness to take over the place...

And you would NEVER hear of children being murdered. Ever.

[Seshmeister]

Hmmm...

I think maybe a lot of the Native American culture is glossed over by the New Age people.

Like all the living in complete harmony with nature stuff. They used to hunt buffalo by getting a whole herd to stampede over a cliff and then they would eat what they needed and leave the rest to rot.

That doesn't seem to be too harmonious...

[Angel]

Hmmm...

I think maybe a lot of the Native American culture is glossed over by the New Age people.

Like all the living in complete harmony with nature stuff. They used to hunt buffalo by getting a whole herd to stampede over a cliff and then they would eat what they needed and leave the rest to rot.

That doesn't seem to be too harmonious...

That's not true. Bands came together to hunt Buffalo. Nothing was left to rot! Every last sinew was used. They killed about 1000 a year.

The buffalo were wiped out by the white man as a means of starving people so that the Chiefs would sign the Treaties and go live on Reserve.

[Angel]

Hmmm...

I think maybe a lot of the Native American culture is glossed over by the New Age people.

Like all the living in complete harmony with nature stuff. They used to hunt buffalo by getting a whole herd to stampede over a cliff and then they would eat what they needed and leave the rest to rot.

That doesn't seem to be too harmonious...

I have no idea about any "new age" shit. My minor is Indigenous studies....

[Nitro Express]

Shesh is right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Also the native Americans did horrible things to each other. The reality is far from the neo hippie dip version we hear now.

I'm sure they used everything off those buffalo though because that was the main resource for their food, skins, and whatever else they used from the beast.

[FORD]

That's not true. Bands came together to hunt Buffalo. Nothing was left to rot! Every last sinew was used. They killed about 1000 a year.

The buffalo were wiped out by the white man as a means of starving people so that the Chiefs would sign the Treaties and go live on Reserve.

Hell, even dumbassed Ted Nugent knows that much....


Well, it happened long ago
In the new magic land
The Indians and the buffalo
They existed hand in hand
Well, the Indians needed food
And skins for a roof
Well they only took what they needed
Millions of buffalo were the proof

But then came the white man
With his thick and empty head
He couldn't see past billfold
He wanted all the buffalo dead

Irony here of course is that the majority of Nugent's fans have probably contemplated the meaning of "Wango Tango" more than they ever did that song.

[Coyote]

Zen Buddhist, spiced with a touch of Thelema and Zoroastrianism.

[Angel]

Shesh is right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Also the native Americans did horrible things to each other. The reality is far from the neo hippie dip version we hear now.

I'm sure they used everything off those buffalo though because that was the main resource for their food, skins, and whatever else they used from the beast.

Wiki is not a reliable source. Yes, they drove buffalo over cliffs. It is well known. But it is bs that they let anything rot or that they decimated herds. Buffalo hide was used for tipis, robes, snowshoes, carrying bags, pails, sinew...the list goes on and on. They survived on pemmican (buffalo jerky, basically) during the long Northern winters. It pisses me off to no end the amount of BS out there! Women and children starved to death because of the buffalo massacres. There is so much mis-information when it comes to First Nations. Grrrr...:mad:

[Angel]

Shesh is right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Also the native Americans did horrible things to each other. The reality is far from the neo hippie dip version we hear now.

I'm sure they used everything off those buffalo though because that was the main resource for their food, skins, and whatever else they used from the beast.

Tell me, oh wise man, about these horrid things they did to each other...and I will then tell you the truth behind the story instead of the ethnocentric bs that's been fed to the masses by the white cousins. By the way, amongst the Plains Cree the buffalo is known as the four-legged brother.

[DONNIEP]

Speaking of buffalo - a neighbor down the street has four buffalo. People stop and take pictures, like they're seeing dinosaurs or something :)

[Angel]

Speaking of buffalo - a neighbor down the street has four buffalo. People stop and take pictures, like they're seeing dinosaurs or something :)

We had a buffalo paddock when I was a kid (the town did) it was a breeding program, and thanks to that program there are wild buffalo roaming the plains again. It's an awesome sight! They are magnificent creatures.

[Nitro Express]

We had a buffalo paddock when I was a kid (the town did) it was a breeding program, and thanks to that program there are wild buffalo roaming the plains again. It's an awesome sight! They are magnificent creatures.

We have them in Yellowstone National Park. Occasionally some strays come down here. They make a good hamburger too.

[Angel]

We have them in Yellowstone National Park. Occasionally some strays come down here. They make a good hamburger too.

Yeah, they're considering re-introducing wild buffalo to Banff. Hope they do.

[Nitro Express]

Yeah, they're considering re-introducing wild buffalo to Banff. Hope they do.

They really don't seem to be a problem other than if you have cattle ranches around because bison carry disease the cows can get.

[FORD]

We have them in Yellowstone National Park. Occasionally some strays come down here. They make a good hamburger too.

Saw a herd when I went to Yellowstone several years ago. They were actually blocking the highway south of the park as we were leaving. I don't so much mind a traffic jam if it's for reasons like that.

Of course I can always go see them at Northwest Trek (http://www.nwtrek.org/tram-tour/) if I want a shorter commute.

[DONNIEP]

There's a joint near here that has buffalo burgers. Damn good burger. The rancher down the road has four that are completely separate from his black angus herd. And I have a neighbor that owns a camel. No shit :)

[Seshmeister]

Shesh is right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump

Also the native Americans did horrible things to each other. The reality is far from the neo hippie dip version we hear now.

I'm sure they used everything off those buffalo though because that was the main resource for their food, skins, and whatever else they used from the beast.

I was going to thank you but how difficult is it to spell Sesh?

Then I wonder if it's a Sean Connery homage... :)

Anyhoo this is odd because in one thread I'm arguing with you about glossing over how shit the past was and how much better things are now but in here you are agreeing with me?

[Seshmeister]

Yeah, they're considering re-introducing wild buffalo to Banff. Hope they do.

Which Banff?

I got really drunk in Banff once. The people there are crazy, chances are the buffalo will end of not just wild but fucking livid at being ridden every Saturday night.

Or maybe you mean the Canadian offshoot...

[Angel]

Which Banff?

I got really drunk in Banff once. The people there are crazy, chances are the buffalo will end of not just wild but fucking livid at being ridden every Saturday night.

Or maybe you mean the Canadian offshoot...

Aye, tis the wee offspring of the town you got drunk in...but we live up to the name...if the beasts make it into town they will suffer the same fate. :)

Is your Banff a party town too? Ours is wild. The median age is 21. That town has created a lot of alcoholics...

[ELVIS]

So, you're like the town mum ??

[Angel]

So, you're like the town mum ??

I haven't lived there since I was 17. Idiot.

[ELVIS]

Then, how do "we" live up to the name ??

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Which Banff?

I got really drunk in Banff once.

Shocking.... SHOCKING, I say.... ;)

[Angel]

Then, how do "we" live up to the name ??

"We" as in Banffites. I was raised there and will always consider myself a Banffite. "We" is a reference to Banffites in general. Banff is one of Canada's best known party towns. It's also one of the most beautiful places in the world.

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[Angel]

Hmmm...

Are you questioning the partying or the beauty?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/17/amazevuq.jpg

There's the beauty...you'll have to pay a visit if you're questioning the party aspect...:p

[Nickdfresh]

Hmmm...

I think maybe a lot of the Native American culture is glossed over by the New Age people.

Like all the living in complete harmony with nature stuff. They used to hunt buffalo by getting a whole herd to stampede over a cliff and then they would eat what they needed and leave the rest to rot.

That doesn't seem to be too harmonious...


It's just the "noble savage" myth in new clothes...

[Nickdfresh]

Wiki is not a reliable source. Yes, they drove buffalo over cliffs. It is well known. But it is bs that they let anything rot or that they decimated herds. Buffalo hide was used for tipis, robes, snowshoes, carrying bags, pails, sinew...the list goes on and on. They survived on pemmican (buffalo jerky, basically) during the long Northern winters. It pisses me off to no end the amount of BS out there! Women and children starved to death because of the buffalo massacres. There is so much mis-information when it comes to First Nations. Grrrr...:mad:

The Native American tribes were quite capable of conducting atrocities and massacres and this is pretty well documented. Tribes fought each other and waged vicious wars of genocide and ethnic cleansing. I'm not rationalizing the horrible things that were done by French/British Colonials and the U.S. and Canadian gov'ts to the Native North Americans. But you're stating the nature utopia ideal that never really existed - and that in itself is a manifestation of colonialism and the legacy of the 'Occident' looking toward the 'Orient' for some innate, exotic knowledge or truth. Of course, the Native Tribes didn't have documentations of their darker periods nor historians to write about them...

[vandeleur]

Are you questioning the partying or the beauty?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/17/amazevuq.jpg

There's the beauty...you'll have to pay a visit if you're questioning the party aspect...:p

It does look fantastic

[Angel]

The Native American tribes were quite capable of conducting atrocities and massacres and this is pretty well documented. Tribes fought each other and waged vicious wars of genocide and ethnic cleansing. I'm not rationalizing the horrible things that were done by French/British Colonials and the U.S. and Canadian gov'ts to the Native North Americans. But you're stating the nature utopia ideal that never really existed - and that in itself is a manifestation of colonialism and the legacy of the 'Occident' looking toward the 'Orient' for some innate, exotic knowledge or truth. Of course, the Native Tribes didn't have documentations of their darker periods nor historians to write about them...

Actually, oral traditional knowledge passed down through generations include many stories of the dark times and the times of war. The great peace is one of my favourite Iroquois story. Most of the documented wars that you speak of are post-contact. Like the Huron and Beaver wars.

[DONNIEP]

I got into a beaver war once...

[envy_me]

I got into a beaver war once...

Haha, what?

My street is called that :D