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Nickdfresh

04-03-2005, 12:21 PM

This deserves it's own thread me thinks!

License to Kill
How the GOP helped John Allen Muhammad get a sniper rifle.

By Brent Kendall

Bull's Eye Shooter Supply is a warehouse-sized gun store near the waterfront in Tacoma, Wash. Boasting the Puget Sound's largest selection of firearms and ammunition, the store is a mecca for area sportsmen, who come to browse the latest hunting rifles or practice their marksmanship at the store's 12-lane shooting range. An outside wall of the store bears a hand-painted mural depicting lions, elephants, cheetahs, and water buffaloes. Some of the store's firearms, however, have felled more than big game.

One such gun was a .223-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster XM15 rifle, which Bull's Eye received from the manufacturer on July 2 of last year. On Sept. 21, a bullet from that gun blew through the back of a liquor store manager in Montgomery, Ala. (she died in the emergency room soon after). Two days later, another bullet burrowed through the head of a beauty store manager in Baton Rouge, La., who died instantly. Between Oct. 2-3, bullets from the gun ripped through the bodies of six people in Montgomery County, Md., killing all of them. Over the next three weeks, the gun claimed seven more victims--including a bus driver, a female FBI analyst, and a 13-year-old schoolboy--killing four of them. Finally, on Oct. 24, law enforcement authorities found the Bushmaster in the back seat of a blue Chevy Caprice occupied by John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.

Exactly how the gun got into the men's hands remains something of a mystery. Muhammad was banned by federal law from purchasing any gun because of a restraining order obtained by his ex-wife; his ineligibility would have shown up during the Brady background check that gun stores are required to run on potential buyers. Malvo was ineligible because he was a juvenile and an illegal immigrant. Bull's Eye has no record of selling the weapon, much less conducting a background check on Muhammad or Malvo for it. Bull's Eye employees have reported seeing Malvo at the store this summer, and later noticed the Bushmaster was not in its display case. But the store did not file the federally required theft report. When the store's owner, Brian Borgelt, was questioned by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), the federal agency charged with enforcing the nation's gun laws, he claimed not to have known the gun was missing until authorities traced it back to his store. Two weeks after the sniper suspects' arrests, he filed the theft report with the police and ATF.

This wasn't the first time that Bull's Eye was caught unable to account for deadly firearms that had passed through its doors. ATF inspectors, armed with data showing that weapons used in crimes had originated from Borgelt's store, audited it three times between 1998 and 2001, and found record-keeping irregularities each time. An audit in 2000 revealed that Borgelt could not account, through sales records, for 160 guns. Being unable to account for the whereabouts of even one-fifth that many weapons would be alarming, according to former ATF agents, even for a store the size of Bull's Eye. Moreover, Borgelt hadn't filed personal income tax returns since 1995 and hadn't filed some business tax forms since 1994--this despite $1.5 million in store bank deposits.

Yet despite all the warning signs, ATF didn't shut the store down. It didn't suspend Bull's Eye's license, or put it on probation. It didn't even administer a fine--not one $5 ticket to let the store know that the bureau meant business. Two years later, a $1,600 sniper rifle seems to have disappeared from the store like a pack of M&Ms from a convenience mart, surfacing 3,000 miles away in one of the biggest killing sprees in American history--oh, and one more thing: Bull's Eye is still open for business.

In the wake of September 11, the CIA, FBI, and INS have all been picked apart for failing to act on information that might have prevented the terrorist attacks. So far, there has been no similar call for investigating ATF, even though experts worry that Muhammad--a member of the Nation of Islam who reportedly considered America a terrorist state--may inspire al Qaeda or other terrorist groups to conduct similar attacks with easily obtained sniper rifles.

But there's a reason you won't see anyone investigating ATF: Its failings are the direct result of actions by the Republican politicians who now control both houses of Congress. At the behest of the National Rifle Association (NRA), GOP lawmakers (and some conservative Democrats) have saddled the bureau with so many legal restrictions that it has little practical power to deter sellers from allowing weapons to flow to criminals. ATF could have cracked down harder on Bull's Eye, but its lack of aggressiveness was precisely what GOP lawmakers had intended. Pro-gun-control Democrats could have made an issue last fall of how Muhammad obtained a sniper rifle, but they remained silent in the face of feared retribution at the polls by the NRA. Now, as the minority party, Democrats have little power to investigate anything, even if they wanted to.

Convenient Lack of Suspicion

Every year, more than 200,000 guns used in crimes are traced back to licensed gun dealers like Bull's Eye. Some are originally purchased by law-abiding citizens and later stolen. Others get sold (inadvertently) by dealers to "straw purchasers" who don't have criminal records but are acting as fronts for criminals. In many other cases, however, gun dealers eager to make an extra buck simply sell firearms to anyone who wants them, skipping background checks and falsifying paperwork to cover their tracks.

Of the 83,000 retail firearms dealers in America, ATF shuts down only about 25 annually. These are the most egregious wrongdoers, dealers caught red-handed fencing stolen weapons or openly selling large numbers of firearms to criminals. Yet these few cases account for only a fraction of the guns that flow to criminals from licensed dealers. The bigger problem stems from hundreds of other dealers who, through laziness, sloppy inventory control, convenient lack of suspicion, or under-the-table shenanigans, wind up arming criminals.

It is these dealers that ATF has virtually no power to control. Though it can shut a dealer down permanently--a fitting punishment only in egregious cases--ATF has no power to temporarily suspend a dealer's license, or impose a fine--steps that might remind a dealer to be vigilant about sales rules. Nor can it audit a gun dealer more than once a year, a rule that assures crooked dealers 364 days to do uninterrupted business. And because of dubious judicial precedent, the bureau's agents can't get a dealer charged with selling to a felon by going undercover and posing as felons.

Worse still, from a law-enforcement perspective, is the fact that federal law treats all record-keeping errors by gun dealers as, at most, misdemeanors--even in cases where ATF can prove that a dealer falsified records. This makes it practically impossible to bring gun dealers to court for record-keeping violations, since federal prosecutors, already burdened with more felony cases than they can litigate, usually don't accept misdemeanor referrals.

You'll be hard pressed to find another federal agency that, charged with enforcing laws dealing with legal but potentially dangerous products, must operate under similar handicaps. The Drug Enforcement Administration, which monitors the illegal diversion of prescription drugs, can pursue felony charges against a pharmacy for record-keeping problems; temporarily suspend the license of a problematic pharmacy; and when it has evidence of wrongdoing, mount an undercover approach to determine if a doctor is writing bogus prescriptions or if a pharmacist is illegally dispensing controlled substances. Even the Department of Agriculture, which is notoriously emasculated when it comes to enforcing federal standards, can, after a major food poisoning incident, temporarily stop production at an unsanitary meat packing plant, fine the plant, and re-visit for a new round of inspections in six months.

Reagan's Political Trifecta

Washington has been trying to keep deadly weapons out of criminal hands for almost seven decades. In 1934, alarmed by the violence of organized criminals like Al Capone, Congress passed the nation's first gun-control law, which gave the Treasury Department the power to tax and require owner registration of "gangster-type weapons." In 1938, it passed another measure requiring gun manufacturers and dealers to obtain federal licenses and banning the sale of firearms to known criminals. Thirty years later, in response to rising crime rates and the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King Jr., the federal government clamped down further with passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Among other things, this law mandated that sellers keep transaction records and prohibited felons, illegal aliens, and a few other categories of people from buying or possessing firearms. In 1972, Treasury designated ATF as a separate agency in the department.

The NRA vehemently opposed the 1968 legislation, which marked the beginning of the association's transformation from its more traditional focus on training sportsmen in gun safety into the anti-enforcement, lobbying superpower we know today. Since 1968, the association has increasingly devoted more resources to waging political fights, and has constantly lobbied to minimize the power of ATF, often breathing fire when speaking of it. During the 1970s as ATF stepped up its policing of gun dealers, the NRA fought back, portraying ATF agents as "jack-booted fascists" and arguing that efforts targeting gun stores and their customers were nothing more than harassment. After all, the NRA argued, criminals don't get their guns from gun stores; they steal them from law-abiding gun-owners.
http://www.internetweekly.org/images/info_nra_alt.jpg
At the end of the decade, the NRA found a big friend in Ronald Reagan. By being anti-ATF and supporting gun dealers, Reagan could demonstrate that he was pro-gun, pro-small business, and anti-federal regulation--the perfect trifecta for a conservative Republican. The Gipper promised to eliminate ATF, and once in office he moved to make the pledge good. When the NRA reversed its position, fearing that a proposed merger with the Secret Service would make federal firearms authority politically untouchable, Reagan backed the NRA in substituting deregulation for reorganization, signing the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which significantly curtailed ATF's enforcement powers against the firearms industry. The law limited the number of times ATF could conduct a compliance audit on a gun dealer to once a year. More importantly, it reduced all record-keeping violations--no matter whether there was one violation or a thousand, and no matter if records were falsified--to misdemeanors, thus entirely removing the threat that ATF could pursue felony charges against dealers flouting record-keeping laws and selling guns to prohibited persons under the table.

Gunning for Reform

Bill Clinton's election began to change the landscape in two ways. First, in 1993 the administration passed, against stiff GOP opposition, the Brady law, which required gun dealers to run background checks on all buyers. The next year, it pushed through Congress legislation banning most new assault-style weapons and prohibiting juveniles from possessing handguns. The NRA responded by declaring war on the president and the Democratic Party. The Democrats lost their majorities in both houses of Congress that year; most political experts credit NRA campaign efforts with several key GOP victories.

By 1995, however, the Brady law was beginning to show results. In its first year, it had blocked 40,000 attempts to purchase firearms by criminals, juveniles, and other prohibited persons--evidence that in fact many criminals were looking to gun stores for their firepower. Beginning the next year, the Clinton administration directed ATF to work with local law enforcement to expand the tracing of guns recovered by police, and to invest in new tracing technologies. As a result, ATF discovered that tens of thousands of crime guns actually flowed from licensed retail dealers and pawnbrokers to the streets. Moreover, most of the guns flowed primarily from a small minority of dealers--just 1.2 percent of dealers accounted for 57 percent of those crime gun tracings (ATF shuts down only about one in 40 of these per year).

Believe it or not, these were stunning discoveries, and they demonstrably proved that, despite decades of NRA propaganda, gun stores do play a major role in supplying criminals with guns.

Responding to the information, the White House won big increases in ATF's enforcement and inspector ranks. But to really deter licensed sellers from violating federal laws--as opposed to just arresting them after guns hit the streets--ATF needed powers to encourage compliance: the ability to levy fines, suspend licenses, audit when necessary, and charge dealers with felony record-keeping violations when appropriate. The Clinton administration and a few lone voices in Congress, especially Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), pushed legislation to give ATF this new authority while also requiring background checks at gun shows.

A string of high-school shootings, which peaked with the catastrophe at Columbine High School, gave the legislation enough momentum to narrowly pass the Senate in 1999, with Vice President Al Gore providing a tie-breaking vote. The House passed a weaker version of the Senate bill, and the measure died when efforts to reconcile the two versions went nowhere. Gore's highly publicized vote, according to many political analyses, was a major factor in his loss of West Virginia's five electoral votes in the 2000 election.

In theory, the sniper shootings should have been an occasion to raise again the issue of ATF's limited enforcement powers against dealers supplying criminals with guns. But while debates have raged about whether congressionally imposed restraints on the CIA and the FBI contributed to those agencies' failures to foresee impending terrorist activity, few have asked about similar restraints that might have kept ATF from preventing the terror on the East Coast--even if it had usable information. And it's pretty obvious why. Republicans, as the architects of the current regulatory system, are directly responsible for ATF's limited powers. Democrats, still smarting from the drubbings they took in 1994 and 2000, are understandably nervous about stirring up the gun issue, even though the sniper shootings happened in the thick of an election cycle and captured nationwide attention.

Other than in a few scattered newspaper editorials, the issue of ATF enforcement has stayed off the public radar screen. By and large, people have little clue just what the laws are, and they have no idea how toothless ATF is when it comes to policing gun dealers. Even government lawyers don't know how hamstrung the bureau is. "I've sat in rooms of federal prosecutors--career prosecutors--and ATF people are explaining to them, 'This is the way firearms commerce is governed,'" says David Kennedy, a senior researcher in criminal justice policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, "and the prosecutors don't believe them. It's surreal."

Had ATF been vested with sensible enforcement powers, the world might never have heard of John Allen Muhammad or John Lee Malvo. Had a few political fights turned out differently, the bureau would have been able to fine Bull's Eye for its previous violations, suspend its operations, or pursue felony record-keeping charges. Had the NRA and GOP not worked together to cripple the federal government's ability to enforce gun laws, bullets from that Bushmaster rifle might not have ended the lives of 10 people along the Interstate 95 corridor. Yet despite the dead, the wounded, and the terrified, little has changed politically. If horrors such as these can't spark public scrutiny and political outrage, it's hard to understand what will.

Yup! Wouldn't want to "enforce the laws on the books" as is so much vaunted in NRA propaganda! I mean why restrict our absolutionist personal sense of entitlement so we can go, oh say, fill up our tank with gas without getting fucking shot!? NEVER!

BTW, I am a Republican and a gun owner!
;)

FORD

04-03-2005, 01:17 PM

Bullseye should have been permanently shut down for that shit. I know exactly where that store is. There's iron bars on the doors and windows. Nobody broke in that store and stole a weapon, and I seriously doubt that John Muhammad was able to stick a rifle down his pants and walk out the door with it.

My theory has always been that it was a cash sale "under the table" with a nice bonus thrown in for the employee who didn't report the sale.

And if that's proven to be the case, that employee should be on trial as an acessory to 10 murders.

The gun show idiots responsible for putting weapons into the hands of Harris & Klebold at Columbine should be tried as well, even though it's probably going to be tough to prosecute a case where the primary suspects are dead.

Nickdfresh

04-03-2005, 04:41 PM

I've just always gotten' pissed when I hear the 'jack-booted thug' bullshit!

Nitro Express

04-05-2005, 05:29 AM

I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.

Nickdfresh

04-05-2005, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Nitro Express
I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.

You make some valid points, but a scoped/accurarized AR-15/M-16A2 fires a 5.56mm round at about 1000 meters/per second, and can hit targets out to 600 or 800 meters. Accurarized versions were used by the military as intermediate, semi-auto sniper rifles ( I think they've gone back to heavier M-10/M-21 type weapons).

But the point is, why is this gun store still open? And what if a college kid decides to buy a dozen weapons for Al-Qaida operatives?

And finally, you cannot dismiss the statistics of 11,000+ gun deaths in the US per year.

Nitro Express

04-05-2005, 04:14 PM

Yeah, I'm aware that they shoot the 5.56 round out that far and I'm amazed the wind doesn't blow that little bullet off target more. People at my local gun club shoot accurized AR-15's. But a real sniper is going to use something heavier in my book.

Shit, you would have thought the IRS would have shut the store down for not paying taxes. The problem with the gun battle in the US is each side is very radicle. One side wants to take all the guns and one side wants every type of firearm to be legal. Each side tottaly distrusts the other and there isn't going to be any compromise. So the politics gets dirty. you may have a real point on what's going on. Personaly I think that store should be closed down.

Another problem is the 2nd Amendment in the US Bill of Rights, everyone interprets that different. I mean if you try and grab the guns, you are going to stir up a war. You will piss off so many Timothy McViegh types you would have another terrorist type war going on. I think the states should make their own gun laws and the federal govt. should stay out of it.

Like I said, we are becoming more of a divided country on many issues. If you like more of a liberal lifestyle and more gun regulation, California is the place for you or maybe New York.

This gun debate like abortion has gone on forever and will continue to go on. There are plenty of places to live with real strict gun laws in the world.

Guns are just part of American culture and will continue to be. It's a cultural thing and some may think it's stupid but it's there and will always be there. What's funny is both the liberals and conservatives distrust authority. Right wingers don't want gun regulation because they don't trust the govt. Left wing environmentalists don't trust big oil companies or Bush appointed EPA secretaries. It really boils down to a distrust of authority and that makes any negotiation impossible.

There's a lot of gun owners who in a real sense would welcome higher saftey measures, regulation but they don't trust the system. That's the real problem. They are afraid if it's once in some data base, then they can become targets later on as the people in power change. People in Germany could own firearms and then Hitler made gun registration manditory. The govt. later paid you a vistit and asked for your gun.

I guess many Americans are willing to tollerate some gun deaths over the potential of opening pandoras box to loosing their right to bear arms. It's been that way for a long time and isn't going to change anytime soon.

Nickdfresh

04-15-2005, 10:10 AM

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050415/1039387.asp

Bulletproof gun industry
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legislation would protect manufacturers, dealers no matter how negligent they are

4/15/2005
In most cases, a responsible gun dealer - or manufacturer, for that matter - should not be at risk for what a customer does with a firearm. But that common-sense policy is being stood on its head by an irrational bill about to be taken up by Congress.

The legislation essentially handcuffs the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and makes it harder to sue gun dealers and manufacturers. The bill, introduced by Idaho Republican Sen. Larry Craig and Rep. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla., virtually makes the gun industry bulletproof even when negligence on the part of dealers or manufacturers results in death.

The bill would quash all lawsuits against the gun industry, except where there is absolute evidence that the gun dealer knowingly broke the law. The problem, of course, is knowing what's in a person's mind. The bill essentially would give almost blanket protection against gun makers and dealers from suits seeking damages.

Gun advocates contend the legislation would prevent frivolous lawsuits. They further maintain that laws already on the books prohibit illegal activity. Every retail gun sale, for example, has to undergo an FBI background check.

We don't see a problem with protecting dealers from broad class-action lawsuits based solely on what someone does with a gun purchased from a responsible dealer. But this bill would also protect irresponsible dealers.

In addition to stopping cities and states from filing lawsuits against the gun industry, it would preclude civil lawsuits like the ones filed by the families of the victims of the Washington, D.C., snipers, who used a rifle that was among the 283 guns "lost" by a Tacoma gun dealer over a three-year period. When was the last time a retailer lost 283 of anything? Yet this bill would protect that dealer from lawsuits.

This misguided legislation could end up harming gun users themselves. A hunter, for example, would not be able to sue even if a poorly made gun blew up in his face.

This page has no problem with Americans owning guns. But we do have a problem with gun advocates who block any legitimate effort to make sure guns don't get into the wrong hands.

According to FBI and state records, 35 people whose names appeared on terrorism watch lists were permitted to buy guns. That's how surreal the situation has become. It seems there is no limit to efforts to protect anybody and everybody involved in the manufacture and sale of firearms.

This legislation is another in a long litany of efforts to prevent any gun legislation that would increase public safety. President Bush signed a law in January 2004 to allow the government to destroy all records from background checks of gun purchasers after 24 hours. Of course, dealers at gun shows in most states can sell their wares without a background check.

Gun advocates view any limits on gun sales or liability for negligence as an assault on their rights as citizens. That is far from the case.

What this bill would do is give the gun industry the kind of immunity enjoyed by no other industry. It does not deserve passage.

yamaha86tt350

04-15-2005, 11:15 AM

im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them. u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/reference/GunFacts3.3Screen.pdf
and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault? FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless. i strongly suggest all of u listen to what Diamond DLR has to say on the radio on monday and tuesday here on the site. maybe it will open ur eyes up. DLR is the man listen and learn from what he has to say and check out the site above.

yamaha86tt350

04-15-2005, 11:23 AM

i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted

Nickdfresh

04-15-2005, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them....

Heheheh...very funny sentence, thanks! Care to actually debate some of the facts of the first article in this thread? No, you really can't can you?;)

Nickdfresh

04-15-2005, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted

Yup! Can't fly on an airliner but little Achmed can sure still buy his Chinese made AKM knock-off!

Tell that to the families who lost their loved ones in the D.C. Sniper case...I bet they were pretty terrorized!

FORD

04-15-2005, 12:01 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time

Obviously. In your case, spelling a three letter word is a "waste of ur time"

if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them.

Unlike "u" who gets all "ur" propaganda from FAUX, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent records.

u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/reference/GunFacts3.3Screen.pdf

I checked out the site, and it turns out the guy who runs it is such an extremist that he was banned from the extremist website "Free Republic". If even RimJob thinks this guy's a wacko extremist, I ain't taking his word for shit. Let alone his illiterate toady.

and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault?

It could be. If the brakes or the steering failed on the truck, and that was the cause of the accident, then the company should be liable.

FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.

No, that would be the fault of an irresponsible gun owner, whether it was a redneck militia fuck who sold a gun to a kid at a gun show, or a homeowner who was too goddamn stupid to lock up his weapons in a gun safe.

its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless.

Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter.

Nickdfresh

04-15-2005, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter. [/B]

:D

weesfreewheelin

04-15-2005, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by FORD

FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

. [/B]

I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun:D That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet;)

FORD

04-15-2005, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun:D That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet;)

A sports team keeping their equipment in a locker in between games is a completely reasonable practice. :)

yamaha86tt350

04-18-2005, 10:19 AM

oh im sorry i didnt know we were typing essays here jackass. obviously ur priorities are missplaced seeing as ur more woried about spelling than whats being said, maybe u should stop cryin because JFK lost, its over W is prez for a few more years get over it. hey someone got shot by a carzy guy boo hoo cry about it so lets blame guns. i blame boeing for 911. that site isnt the only one u can check facts on either but i guess u dont really know how to use Google. LISTEN TO DLR on the radio. like dlr says knives work better than guns they have silencers on em and work well in crowded areas. so u want to blame them too, kinda like australia...um they're doin real good with crime now a days arent they? i tell u what its a good thing ur not the future b/c this country would really be screwed. hey heres a good idea lets take all guns away b/c they cause crime and murder like pencils cause misspellings and then we can all frollic in the meadows together and everything will be peachy. or if u want to come to reality use the internet if u can handle that and do some research on how Brittan's doin on crime since they started banning guns. or do some research on Nazi germany, they started banning, confinscating guns from the people, and registering them just before they started kilin everyone. maybe run a search for some facts unstead of turning on the 5:00 news or one of those Michael Moore movies tonight. "It could be. If the brakes or the steering failed on the truck, and that was the cause of the accident, then the company should be liable"....hows that relate to the frivilous lawsuit shit we were discussing? WAY OFF! u made a bigger ass of ur self rambling on ignorantly like that than i do makin spelling erors oops theres one now. "Yup! Can't fly on an airliner but little Achmed can sure still buy his Chinese made AKM knock-off!" yep b/c its sooo easy to get guns eh???? funny u mention the ak like its a bad ass gun. ha its the cheepest most inacurate piece of shit out there ur little Achmed pal would be better off buyin a hunting riffle, shoots the same, semi auto but more accurate. AKs are pieces but u probably see em shootin fully auto in the movies and think there dangerous bullet spewing assualt weapons. how many times have they used em to carry out terrorist attacks here? Oh. isnt there ways for the goverment to check for whos buyin guns? oh ya there is,background checks...that little yellow sheet u have to fill out on the spot before u can even think of pickin up a gun.
i posted facts but if u dont like them u can just keep gettin urs from FOX news and CNN its ok you'll die before me and i can make ur wrongs right. if u dont like guns dont buy em and when u get em all from the criminals than u can have mine. hey maybe we should make murder and robbery illegal and focus on that before we worry about other things. or we can start banning hands and feet first than move on to guns and knives b/c more crimes are committed with bare hands and feet than weapons. enjoy the spelling....

FORD

04-18-2005, 10:48 AM

The above post is evidence of why David Lee Roth and John Mellencamp couldn't wait to get the fuck out of Indiana.

BigBadBrian

04-18-2005, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by FORD
The above post is evidence of why David Lee Roth and John Mellencamp couldn't wait to get the fuck out of Indiana.

Maybe you are one of the reasons why Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley couldn't wait to get out of Washington state. Dumbass. :rolleyes:

FORD

04-18-2005, 11:09 AM

Considering they both died here, that's an extremely illogical statement.

BigBadBrian

04-18-2005, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by FORD
Considering they both died here, that's an extremely illogical statement.

Not really. They left, didn't they? ;)

BigBadBrian

04-18-2005, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Not really. They left, didn't they? ;)

It was, however, a low blow. Drug abuse is nothing to make fun of.

Know Me Broken By My Master
Teach Thee On Child Of Love Hereafter

Into The Flood Again
Same Old Trip It Was Back Then
So I Made A Big Mistake
Try To See It Once My Way

Drifting Body Its Sole Desertion
Flying Not Yet Quite The Notion

Am I Wrong?
Have I Run Too Far To Get Home?
Am I Gone?
And Left You Here Alone
If I Would Could You?

FORD

04-18-2005, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
It was, however, a low blow. Drug abuse is nothing to make fun of.

Know Me Broken By My Master
Teach Thee On Child Of Love Hereafter

Into The Flood Again
Same Old Trip It Was Back Then
So I Made A Big Mistake
Try To See It Once My Way

Drifting Body Its Sole Desertion
Flying Not Yet Quite The Notion

Am I Wrong?
Have I Run Too Far To Get Home?
Am I Gone?
And Left You Here Alone
If I Would Could You?

Layne wrote that song for Andrew Wood of Mother Love Bone. He might as well have written it for himself :(

Nickdfresh

10-11-2006, 06:24 AM

Bump!

Nickdfresh

10-11-2006, 06:38 AM

BTW, in the 1980s the ATF was one of the most feared agencies by violent, armed drug dealers since they used to put people behind bars for either five or 15-years. No parole, no sentence reductions, no plea bargains, no questions! You had an illegal gun while committing a felony (possession of large amounts of drugs), you were going to jail!

Not any more, they were castrated by the NRA lobbyists. Better to have unfettered access to guns at stores violating laws I suppose...

Nickdfresh

08-08-2012, 04:53 PM

Timely bump!

ZahZoo

08-09-2012, 09:45 AM

FORD

08-09-2012, 01:14 PM

When Poppy Fucking Bush himself resigned his NRA membership and called them a bunch of "jackbooted thugs", that should have been enough of a clue for any person with a reasonable amount of sanity to realize what they were all about.

Not to mention when they gave Howard Dean an A+ rating during his entire term as Vermont governor, and then immediately attacked him when he ran for President, even though Dean's actual views on guns hadn't changed at all.

Guitar Shark

08-09-2012, 09:19 PM

Nick, I've been meaning to mention it for some time, and this thread is as good as any - LOVE the new video sig. Who is that lovely athlete?

jhale667

08-09-2012, 09:35 PM

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/600.jpg

Nickdfresh

08-10-2012, 02:11 AM

Nick, I've been meaning to mention it for some time, and this thread is as good as any - LOVE the new video sig. Who is that lovely athlete?

Aussie hurdler Michelle Jenneke. The full dance is on Youtube...

Nitro Express

08-10-2012, 03:07 AM

I don't like what the NRA has become... never been a member but have friends that are. The political bullshit being spewed from that end of the field is way off the reasonable and educated scale... and has nothing to do with gun rights even remotely.

I read that membership is up to 4.3 million and that lobby has thrown more Democratic elections than any other. Too much power for a lobby... I'd like to see the whole playing field for lobbyists wiped clean and eliminated completely.

The National Rifle Association used to be a national gun club and it's real purpose was to oversee amd sponsor shooting competitions. When I played in tennis tournaments I had to be a member of the USTA and when I entered shooting competitions I usually had to have an NRA card. I think since the 1960's the NRA just got more and more political.

BigBadBrian

08-10-2012, 01:59 PM

BTW, I am a Republican and a gun owner!
[/i];)

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

clarathecarrot

12-15-2012, 02:31 PM

All the NRA is doing is manufacturing more violence to justify their warped paranoia. I myself own a gun (a Taurus 9mm) and oh yes, it's sexy but I never bought on the ridiculousness that the NRA says I should.

Kristy, did you take the NRA sponsored safety course or one by some other organization, since you are a concerned gun owner ?

You should if you haven't.

I took one back in 1974 and another refresher course back in 1979 when I went for my Louisiana safe hunter game license.

Every gun owner should be required to qualify on a range, by a licensed NRA, gun safety class...myop.

By required I mean you should require that of yourself.

Nitro Express

12-15-2012, 03:25 PM

Guns are not a substitute for shitty debate skills. The only way anyone needs an assault rifle to hunt deer is if the fucking deer are shooting back.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/worthy-adversary.jpg

Assault rifles have the option to go full auto so technically an AR-15 isn't an assault rifle nor is a semiautomatic only Kalashinikov an assault rifle. They are semi-automatic carbines and rifles that can take a large magazine. Now you have semi-automatic rifles that look like regular hunting rifles but they won't take a big 30 round or larger magazines. The AR and AK styled weapons shoot small calibers. .223, 762x39, 5,45x39. The reason is such weapons are designed to be effective out to 300 meters and not long ranges and the smaller rounds allow you to carry more rounds.

Not the best weapons to go deer hunting and in most states using such small rounds for deer hunting is illegal. You need to have more velocity and a heavier bullet than the 7,62x39 soviet. I would say the smallest you want to go is a 30-30 winchester at short ranges and then use something in the 30-06 range for longer distances. Those are proper deer hunting calibers.

The real issue is magazine capacity and then of course if you can change out the magazine with the push of a button you have a quick reload. People get too fixated on what the gun looks like. The last assult rifle ban did nothing about magazine capacity. It focused on what the gun looked like and forbid having a pistol grip, a flash hider, and a bayonett lug. As long as the gun looked more like a hunting rifle you could slap a 80 round wind up drum on it.

So what they need to do is focus on magazine capacity. For a rifle make it five rounds. You can also modify the new guns so the old magazines won't fit so all the new ones can only use the short magazines. Also another cool thing some gun manufactures like Bersa are doing is they have a built in lock in the gun that you lock with a little key. It just looks like a hex screw on the side of the gun so if you lock it the action locks up and the gun can't be used. So if someone steals the gun or kids get to them unless they have the key, they aren't shooting them.

One new form of technology that is being looked at is to have an electronic trigger system where the gun won't fire unless the shooter is wearing a special ring. This is being looked at for law enforcement so if their firearm gets snagged and taken away from them, it won't fire.

I just see a realistic solution is limiting the magazine capacity and putting some built in saftey locks in the guns so if they get stolen they can't be used. The reality is there are millions of guns out there. You can change laws and restrict the sale of things but it's very difficult to take away what's out there without setting off a big powder keg. I mean if the government really wanted to get the guns they could offer awsome rewards for trading your AR-15 in. The way the federal government wastes money why not offer people a brand new pickup for their AR-15 or AK? There's a lot of rednecks that would go for that offer. LOL!

Nitro Express

12-15-2012, 03:40 PM

Maybe some public announcements on gun safety would do some good. Run them on the radio and television. Ford mentioned gun safes but if you live in an apartment or rent, that's not a realistic option but what you can do is lock the magazines up separate from the gun. You can pull the bolt or bolt carrier out of a rifle and lock that up. You can pull the slide and barrel off a semi automatic pistol and lock those up. All you need is a smaller safe for the magazines or gun parts. Most people need a small fire proof safe for their documents anyways. The thing is people aren't aware of what they can do and really just running some announcements would do some good and probably save some lives.

BigBadBrian

12-15-2012, 05:11 PM

While we're talking guns, I'm thinking the US military, and hence NATO, should go to a 6.8mm round vice 5.56. Too many troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are saying the 5.56 doesn't have enough knock-down power and just "doesn't get the job done." Whaddya say? :gulp:

Nitro Express

12-15-2012, 08:13 PM

I don't know if all the dad's in our neighborhood took the same gun safety classes. Like I said, we used to have gun and hunter safety taught in school and our local rifle range was owned and maintained by the US Forrest Service. That was back in the days where the US Federal Government wasn't so anti-gun. They provided shooting ranges and made surplus rifles available. I think the thinking was they wanted a population of trained marksmen available in case they were needed if there was a war. The thinking now is 180 degrees different. All our dads pretty much secured the weapons in the house the same way. You never touched the guns without permission either or got into the ammo or the wrath of God would fall on you and there would be hell to pay. It was was a biggie. Even bigger than getting caught with porn.

Anyways, most people had bolt action rifles and shotguns. A few people had handguns. The modern military looking stuff really wasn't that popular then. It was mostly hunting rifles, shotguns, and target shooting rifles and pistols. Everyone stored the rifles with bolts out of them, the ammunition was locked up in a separate part of the house and handguns were usually locked up in a strong box. Some people had big gun cases or gun racks but there was no ammo in the guns, no magazines in them or the bolts were out of them. That was the standard way of keeping them in the house.

The houses were usually unlocked. Nobody locked their doors and nobody I knew had a gun for defense. That was looked at as being paranoid but then hey, we lived in an area nobody felt they need to lock the front door.

But there was consequences for your actions when you were a kid. Kids were scared of their parents and teachers. The principle might paddle you, you might have to stay after school and write a big essay on why you shouldn't have done what you did. I threw a kids baseball mitt in a mud puddle and stomped on it and totally ruined it. I was dragged to not only apologize to the kid but his parents and had to earn the $40 to buy him a new one. It was $40 I had to work for and $40 I could have enjoyed. I cringe to think of what would happen if you spray painted public buildings and got caught. They would have cained your ass and I'm not kidding. Fear of being caught was a huge deterrent and the adults commanded respect and weren't the silly immature parents we have now. The adults were not your buddy, they loved you but if you fucked with them they would clean your clock and make your life hell.

The result was you could leave the front door unlocked with a bunch of guns in the house. LOL!

I think a lot of it was the dads at the time grew up through the great depression some served in World War II or Korea. They had to grow up sooner than the baby boomers did. The spoiled and fluffy hippie dip mentality was not there and there was little patience for spoiled misbehaving immature and unresponsible brats. They let you know it too.

What we are seeing now is the fruit of the baby boom meathead generation. what a fucking mess.

Nickdfresh

12-15-2012, 10:16 PM

Assault rifles have the option to go full auto so technically an AR-15 isn't an assault rifle nor is a semiautomatic only Kalashinikov an assault rifle. They are semi-automatic carbines and rifles that can take a large magazine. Now you have semi-automatic rifles that look like regular hunting rifles but they won't take a big 30 round or larger magazines. The AR and AK styled weapons shoot small calibers. .223, 762x39, 5,45x39. The reason is such weapons are designed to be effective out to 300 meters and not long ranges and the smaller rounds allow you to carry more rounds.

No, they're not "carbines." Carbines fire pistol, or pistol style ammunition or are shortened rifles. The AK's 7.62x39mm is not a "small caliber," it's a full caliber shortened round and the 5.56mmx45 is a high velocity small caliber bullet. The reason they have shorter ranges than old bolt action rifles is that anything more than 300 meters is completely useless in 90% of combat situations. The M-16 style rifles are effective out to upwards of 600m actually though.

FYI - it's true you can carry more ammo, but the rifles themselves were lighter and more compact allowing for quicker reaction during ambushes or when a patrol stumbled into an enemy patrol. They are also vastly more controllable when fired on full auto, or when fired rapidly on semi-auto in prolonged combat...

Not the best weapons to go deer hunting and in most states using such small rounds for deer hunting is illegal. You need to have more velocity and a heavier bullet than the 7,62x39 soviet. I would say the smallest you want to go is a 30-30 winchester at short ranges and then use something in the 30-06 range for longer distances. Those are proper deer hunting calibers.

The real issue is magazine capacity and then of course if you can change out the magazine with the push of a button you have a quick reload. People get too fixated on what the gun looks like. The last assult rifle ban did nothing about magazine capacity. It focused on what the gun looked like and forbid having a pistol grip, a flash hider, and a bayonett lug. As long as the gun looked more like a hunting rifle you could slap a 80 round wind up drum on it.

No, there was a ban on weapons that could take a magazine of more than 10 rounds for a while. It was allowed to expire under Bush IIRC. And WTF do you mean "look like" as ammunition capacities and quick reloading capability are what make military style assault rifles effective at killing lots of people at combat ranges. I was trained in the Army NOT to use full auto and to use semi in almost all combat situations. Many states have limitations on the ammunition capacities allowed while hunting anyways and your points are mostly the typical bullshit aphorisms stated by people who have the mindless NRA-zombie cum all over their face. The M-14 and Mini-14/AC556 both look more like traditional rifles but still feature high capacity magazines of 20 or 30 rounds. The .308 M-14 was (mostly) issued as a semi-automatic rifle to US troops during the 60's and actually still is to an extent as a 'designated marksman weapon' to BBB's previous point about the 6.8mm crap or whatever...

...
I just see a realistic solution is limiting the magazine capacity...

That was already tried once, see above. I don't have the exact details, but for a while all rifles had limitations an magazine capacities. But unfortunately this cunt's didn't, as he was able to shoot lots of children without reloading sadly...

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 03:07 AM

Yeah the gun control in Mexico is sure keeping the citizens there safe.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 07:59 AM

I'm starting this thread so as to not muck up the Newtown Shooting thread. If the mods want to merge this thread with that one, then so be it.

Put your gun control ideas, comments, and comments about the Second Amendment to the US Constitution (what it does or does not say) here.

What should it take to purchase a gun? What classes, background checks, etc. should be involved? What restrictions should there be? Should certain, or even all, firearms be banned? Should there be a restriction on the number of firearms a person can own?

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 08:00 AM

AMENDMENT II to the US Constitution

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

fraroc

12-16-2012, 08:18 AM

It's one thing to own guns responsibly and to be in favor of the second admendment. I have absolutley NO issue with that. But what I don't like is when people's first reaction to the shooting is "dem bleedin' heart liberals are gon' take away our guns!" And that's all you care about. In that case, I would say that you don't give a shit about the 20 children that died, your priorities as a human being suck, and you have absolutley no heart or soul.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 08:53 AM

Larry Pratt (http://gunowners.org/a12152012.htm)

A gunman whose name we do not need to memorialize took advantage of our gun control laws to slaughter some 20 children and seven adults in a Newton, Connecticut elementary school.

In addition to the gunman, blood is on the hands of members of Congress and the Connecticut legislators who voted to ban guns from all schools in Connecticut (and most other states). They are the ones who made it illegal to defend oneself with a gun in a school when that is the only effective way of resisting a gunman.

What a lethal, false security are the Gun Free Zone laws. All of our mass murders in the last 20 years have occurred in Gun Free Zones. The two people murdered a couple of days earlier in the shopping center in Oregon were also in a Gun Free Zone.

Hopefully the Connecticut tragedy will be the tipping point after which a rising chorus of Americans will demand elimination of the Gun Free Zone laws that are in fact Criminal Safe Zones.

One measure of insanity is repeating the same failure time after time hoping that the next time the failure will turn out to be a success. Gun Free Zones are a lethal insanity.

We must tell our elected officials that they are acting as the criminals’ friends as long as they continue to support legislation that only protects criminals, not decent people.

Oh, and we must also insist that these criminal friendly elected officials not even try to blame gun owners and our “gun culture” for what a criminal did. Had a few of us been available with guns at the Newton school, most of the victims might still be alive.

:elvis:

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:14 AM

This shooting is yet another tragic example of the failed, grotesque insistence on helpless victim zones where any crazed gunman can be assured of a large number of disarmed, undefended, helpless victims, all crammed into one place, where he can kill many children before an armed defender arrives from elsewhere.

It is disturbing and sick that the federal government so hates the right of the American people to bear arms, and so hates their natural right to self defense, that the government insists on making them helpless, disarmed victims for anyone who cares to kill them. And in this case, all of the teachers and staff were willfully disarmed by the Federal Government, by force of law and threat of prison, to ensure that they would be disarmed and incapable of saving the lives of the children entrusted to their care.

That makes the Federal Government complicit in the deaths of these children, and in fact an accessory to their mass murder, by forcibly disarming (with the very real threat of prison) all the teachers, all the staff, and any parent who may have been on school property. That stupid law guaranteed the shooters would meet no immediate armed resistance, which is exactly what is needed to stop such an attack.

In such a shooting (as in every criminal attack), seconds count, and the people best positioned to stop the attack are the people on the scene – the intended victims and/or their care-takers. In this case, that would mean the teachers and staff of the school who were responsible for the well-being of those children, and also the parents, who should have the ability to save the lives of their own children as they take them to and from school.

The police cannot, and do not arrive in time to stop such shooters from killing large numbers of people. They are a slow reactive force compared to an armed citizen on the scene. This should be common sense, as it is obvious that in the immediacy of a criminal attack, it is the intended victims (or their immediate care-takers) who are there, in position to put a stop to the attack, if they are capable. And being capable means being armed, trained, willing, and able to use deadly force, right then, right there. Anything less leads to what we saw here.

But no doubt the rabid anti-gun government supremacists will use this to further their agenda to disarm the American people, totally ignoring that obvious, plain-as-day truth. Anti-gun nuts trust the government with guns, but not the people, and insist that the lowly citizen must be disarmed and helpless in the face of murderous assault, and must wait on slow responding armed government employees, who will not be there when the attack starts, and most often can only really clean up the horrendous crime scene afterwards and maybe, just maybe apprehend a shooter who has chosen not to kill himself (as they usually do).

The bottom line is that these teachers and staff at the Sandy Hook Elementary School were incapable of keeping these children safe, and incapable of defending them. And one of the biggest reasons they were so incapable and unprepared to save the lives of the children entrusted to their care is because the anti-gun nuts and their fellow travelers in government insisted on disarming every adult in the vicinity, by threatening them with prison time – EXCEPT the gunmen, who don’t care about the law and thus were not disarmed. laws against carrying weapons in schools don’t stop evil men with murderous intent. Such laws only disarm the law abiding and virtuous, who are now rendered incompetent to defend the precious children in their care.

This is disgusting. And yet another reason to home-school. Why would you want to leave your children helpless, in the hands of adults who are themselves helpless, and incapable of defending them, by government decree? For all we know, one of the teachers may have been a veteran, with the training and skill to use a firearm if one had been available. But all the teachers and staff, whatever their ability with firearms, were stripped of the choice and chance to save the lives of these kids.

There are more good guys than bad guys in the world. But the good guys need to be able to stop the bad guys, and that means they need to be armed so they can stop the bad guys on the spot, without having to wait for “official” government approved good guys to respond. Trust the teachers with arms so they can save the lives of their students.

Until the adults are allowed to actually act like adults, and defend themselves and their students, this kind of willful killing will continue to happen, and the federal government will in each case be a guilty party to the conspiracy by ensuring that the targets are disarmed.

Until this changes, you should refuse to give your children over to government schools lorded over by a Federal Government so callous and indifferent to their safety and lives.

Stewart Rhodes,
Founder of Oath Keepers (http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2012/12/14/the-federal-government-is-guilty-accomplice-in-school-shooting-in-newtown-connecticut/)

:elvis:

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:25 AM

:elvis:

ToraToraTora

12-16-2012, 09:31 AM

ToraToraTora

12-16-2012, 09:32 AM

Sorry guys, America's gun laws are something i know nothing about, so i'll shut up now.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:34 AM

The dead mother is maybe an accomplice by circumstance...

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:45 AM

:elvis:

Kristy

12-16-2012, 09:50 AM

Don't bring that fucking moron into this thread.

Angel

12-16-2012, 09:51 AM

Didn't the 1st murder occur in a house full of fucking guns???? didn't help Mother did it? That wasn't a gun free zone.

If Mom hadn't had those guns in the house to begin with...that's all I'm going to say....

POJO_Risin

12-16-2012, 09:51 AM

In all honesty, if we're discussing arming elementary schools, and don't see the bigger issue here...

...and I'm not trying to get into it here...with anyone...I hear the viewpoints...and get them all...

Here's what I can tell you. I guarantee you that I own more guns than most people on this forum. I have two kids who have used them, and I can safely tell you that my kids will NEVER use them inappropriately because of the culture my whole family has in place.

But...in an insane world...there are families that have similar weapons in their house, and deal with it differently....and in an unhealthy way...

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but it does.

As per arming teachers...I just have nothing for it...for several reasons...

Proceed to discuss...and I suppose there really is something to take from all of this...and all of the ideas here...

But at the end of the day, if the fix is to continue to arm more...then our society will ultimately fail.

...and that has nothing and everything to do with how we HANDLE guns...

Because teaching the respect that u need to handle any weapon just isn't there. Seriously...go sit in an elementary school sometime and really watch the kids...and you'll get my point...

Have a good one gents...

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:51 AM

Fuck off, whore...

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:53 AM

But at the end of the day, if the fix is to continue to arm more...then our society will ultimately fail.

Personally, I think the opposite is true...

Kristy

12-16-2012, 09:54 AM

And so the racist trailer trash Elvis shows his true colors once again.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:55 AM

And so the racist trailer trash Elvis shows his true colors once again.

You're not a whore ??

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 10:32 AM

Personally, I think the opposite is true...

Yeah, because a return to Deadwood clearly ensures a safe, healthy, long and prosperous life for one and all. Arming everyone to the teeth is not the answer.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:40 AM

But passing more legislation will fix it, right ??

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 10:56 AM

POJO_Risin

12-16-2012, 11:01 AM

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:02 AM

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:03 AM

brilliant post...

but the harm is the lunatic fringe...

they don't want ANY conversation...

You lost me at "lunatic fringe", teacher...

POJO_Risin

12-16-2012, 11:06 AM

I'm not saying arm everyone...

I'm saying roll back all of the anti-gun legislation and let law-abiding citizens carry what ever firearm they like anywhere they like...

Let schools hire armed security if they feel it necessary to do so...

Go to the French Quarter in New Orleans where nearly every T-shirt shop has an armed off-duty police officer looking you in the eye...

So, schools are going to pay for that how? Most can't fucking afford paper because funding from education is going away...but now we are going to hire an armed education force?

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 11:24 AM

Go to the French Quarter in New Orleans where nearly every T-shirt shop has an armed off-duty police officer looking you in the eye...

And there you have it. A perfect example of in-fucking-sanity.

78/84 guy

12-16-2012, 11:32 AM

Don't bring that fucking moron into this thread.

We can't stop you from posting on here !

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:45 AM

So, schools are going to pay for that how? Most can't fucking afford paper because funding from education is going away...but now we are going to hire an armed education force?

I dunno...

Free up some federal funds that are being wasted on predator drones that kill children, or something...

Just don't involve the fucking TSA !!

envy_me

12-16-2012, 11:47 AM

Let schools hire armed security if they feel it necessary to do so...

Armed security? Are you aiming for society that resembles South Africa? Instead of evening the odds by arming everybody, why not go the other way and disarm everybody?

Sure, I know your next argument is gonna be that criminals will find a way to get weapons, but criminals in most cases go after other criminsls. It regulates itself :-)

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:47 AM

And there you have it. A perfect example of in-fucking-sanity.

Why is that insane ??

To have a possible armed criminal think twice before robbing a store and killing the owner ??

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:48 AM

Armed security? Are you aiming for society that resembles South Africa? Instead of evening the odds by arming everybody, why not go the other way and disarm everybody?

How are you going to disarm a criminal ??

Angel

12-16-2012, 11:48 AM

More guns = more gun violence.

envy_me

12-16-2012, 11:53 AM

How are you going to disarm a criminal ??

As I wrote earlier, criminals mostly go after other criminals. Self-sanitation :-) Here we have many armed criminals, and many shootings (for a small country), but I have never heard that an innocent person has been a victim. At least not in my town, and we have MANY shootings.

And if you make guns illegal, it's easier to put criminals behind bars.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 11:55 AM

It's already illegal for a criminal to have a gun...

envy_me

12-16-2012, 11:59 AM

It's already illegal for a criminal to have a gun...

Why? How are you gonna disarm them :D

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 11:59 AM

Why is that insane ??

To have a possible armed criminal think twice before robbing a store and killing the owner ??

I at first envisioned an unarmed 14 year old kid stealing a T-shirt, making a run for it and ending up with a hole in the back of his head.

You see, this is why it's good to discuss this sort of thing. Different possibilities require different solutions. It's complicated and I certainly don't have the answer.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 12:25 PM

And so the racist trailer trash Elvis shows his true colors once again.

You add nothing to the conversation with your venomous attitude. Please stay on topic and try to argue the point of this thread. Thank you!

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 12:28 PM

why not go the other way and disarm everybody?

So you're saying confiscate and ban all firearms?

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 12:30 PM

More guns = more gun violence.

Incorrect.

More mental illness = more gun violence.

Saying a gun causes violence is like saying a fork causes you to be fat.

envy_me

12-16-2012, 12:39 PM

So you're saying confiscate and ban all firearms?

That would be difficult. I say what's sold is sold, but tighten the rules from now on. You gotta start somewhere :-)

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 12:44 PM

I've moved some of the more obvious 'gun control and weapons related posts to this thread from the original thread started on the CT school massacre. Thank you for starting this thread, BBB...

sadaist

12-16-2012, 12:44 PM

I made a weapons thread a while back but my search won't go that far back. It wasn't about gun control, but a thread where us gun owners were sharing what we owned, had shot before, liked, didn't like, and how we got our weapons. Most of mine were from my dad or grandpa. Only ever bought one myself. I just had a revolver, a 9mm with a 10 round magazine, a 12-gauge shotgun that would hold 3 shells, and a .410 shotgun that hold just 1 shell. I loved all my guns but had to sell them to survive. I hope to be in a financial position to buy another gun some day.

I always thought the assault rifles were idiotic for people to own. Then a friend & I rented one at the range. Bushmaster AR-15. Holy fuck that thing was so damn fun to shoot. I can't explain it beyond that. But Once I shot it I wanted one. I'd never buy one because they are like $1500+, but wow it was a lot of fun. Changed my mind on the first shot. So I can definitely see why people like these weapons. But if they ban them again....they did in CA in 1994.....it won't affect me and I don't really care.

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 12:58 PM

AMENDMENT II to the US Constitution

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

So basically only National Guardsmen should have weapons?

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 01:01 PM

...
Stewart Rhodes,
Founder of Oath Keepers (http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2012/12/14/the-federal-government-is-guilty-accomplice-in-school-shooting-in-newtown-connecticut/)

:elvis:

Stewart Rhodes should go fuck a duck and his premise is so infantile and idiotic....

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 01:01 PM

More guns = more gun violence.

Or at least a much higher body count...

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 01:08 PM

Man with knife injures 22 kids at school in China
1:35a.m. EST December 15, 2012
USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/)

Security guards are across China after a spate of school attacks in recent years
Min Yingjun, 36, attacked the students, according to police
An elderly woman and 22 children were injured by knife

BEIJING (AP) — A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.

The attack in the Henan province village of Chengping happened shortly before 8 a.m., said a police officer from Guangshan county, where the village is located.

The attacker, 36-year-old villager Min Yingjun, is now in police custody, said the officer, who declined to give her name, as is customary among Chinese civil servants.

A Guangshan county hospital administrator said the man first attacked an elderly woman, then students, before being subdued by security guards who have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years. He said there were no deaths among the nine students admitted, although two badly injured children had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county.

A doctor at Guangshan's hospital of traditional Chinese medicine said that seven students had been admitted, but that none were seriously injured.

Neither the hospital administrator nor the doctor would give his name.

It was not clear how old the injured children were, but Chinese primary school pupils are generally 6-11 years old.

A notice posted on the Guangshan county government's website confirmed the number of injured and said an emergency response team had been set up to investigate the attacks.

No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a knife-wielding man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing.

Most of the attackers have been mentally disturbed men involved in personal disputes or unable to adjust to the rapid pace of social change in China, underscoring grave weaknesses in the antiquated Chinese medical system's ability to diagnose and treat psychiatric illness.

In one of the worst incidents, a man described as an unemployed, middle-aged doctor killed eight children with a knife in March 2010 to vent his anger over a thwarted romantic relationship.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 01:12 PM

Ban Chinese knives !!

envy_me

12-16-2012, 01:18 PM

Ban Chinese knives !!

22 injured to 26 killed... What would happend if he had a gun?

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 01:21 PM

People would be shot...

Fairwrning

12-16-2012, 01:22 PM

Hey peeps..Hug your kids and watch some football with em today if ya can..take a day off from this shit

envy_me

12-16-2012, 01:29 PM

People would be shot...

...and shooting them would lead them not to be injured, but....? Come on, you can say it.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 01:54 PM

I'm not concerned with what happens in communist China...

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 02:01 PM

So basically only National Guardsmen should have weapons?

I see two subjects and two verbs in separate phrases in the 2nd Amendment. In your statement above, you only account for one of each.

DONNIEP

12-16-2012, 02:14 PM

I honestly don't see why every school doesn't have an armed cop on staff. My daughter's middle school does and so does our high school. And I live in a little town out in the country and even we can afford it. The dude is there every day, in uniform and armed with a pistol and a taser and he's got his shotgun in his patrol car. Same at the high school.

sadaist

12-16-2012, 02:28 PM

I honestly don't see why every school doesn't have an armed cop on staff.

Can you believe we are in times where you actually just said that? How fucked up is that?

I think an armed guard might be much. but what about training & carry/conceal permits for principals? Like 2 jobs in one. I don't know. I don't want principals carrying guns nor do I want armed guards at our schools. But it is all of our duties to protect children.

envy_me

12-16-2012, 02:30 PM

Here, only police officers are allowed to carry a gun, not guards.

What if the armed school guard loses it one day?

DONNIEP

12-16-2012, 02:32 PM

Here, only police officers are allowed to carry a gun, not guards.

What if the armed school guard loses it one day?

What if the sky falls tomorrow?

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 02:34 PM

People would be shot...

And not breathing anymore...

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 02:35 PM

Here, only police officers are allowed to carry a gun, not guards.

What if the armed school guard loses it one day?

Many schools here have armed guards. Didn't Columbine have armed guards?

envy_me

12-16-2012, 02:42 PM

Many schools here have armed guards. Didn't Columbine have armed guards?

But, how come we don't need any armed guards? How did it get to that? :-(

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 03:26 PM

But, how come we don't need any armed guards? How did it get to that? :-(

I don't know. But actually a lot of schools have police stationed in them I should have said...

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 03:56 PM

Our high school and middle school has a city police officer right in the school and they have their own office so they are there full time. The grade schools don't.

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 04:03 PM

In Israel the teachers are armed. The thing is everyone has to do a mandatory two years in the Israel Defense Forces so they are trained with weapons. Then you go in the reserve for I believe two years. When I was there they issued the reservists an Uzi sub machine gun and you had to take that with you everywhere and if you lost it and had to be reissued another one, it was another mandatory two years in the military. People hung onto them.

Everyone carried chamber empty including the handguns and they came up with a way to rack the slide or bolt carrier real quick and get some aimed shots off. By carrying chamber empty they eliminated a lot of accidents. It seemed to work well for them. For having that many citizens armed their safety record is good.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 04:13 PM

In Israel the teachers are armed. The thing is everyone has to do a mandatory two years in the Israel Defense Forces so they are trained with weapons.

I remember getting on buses in Israel and it was nothing seeing people carrying an Uzi or a Galil.

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 04:25 PM

But, how come we don't need any armed guards? How did it get to that? :-(

Degradation of society. We have some screwed up kids because the family situation in this country has gone to pot over the last 40 years. We have really high teen suicide rates. The guns have always been around in this country. I owned guns and my high school friends had them. Our high school even had a skeet shooting club and you took your shotgun to school and the principal locked them up in his office. After school you picked up your gun. The school rule is it had to be in a case with a lock on it.

The thought of shooting someone let alone shoot up the school was so beyond reality and so absurd it was like a dark fantasy. I can't think of one public shooting that ever took place in our town. I don't even think our bank got held up ever.

What happened is mom ditched her responsibility to her children and made chasing a career more important. Married couples who probably could work things out got divorces because they were egoed out and selfish. Kids are often stuck in the middle of feuding parents using the kids to get back at each other. Then you have nobody home to supervise anyone with video games, movies, and even television shows full of some real twisted and violent stuff. Expose children to that you desensitize them and when your family situation is bad and depressing and you are shooting things in a video game everyday for hours. That's what you know. Then when the other screwed up kids bully you it's not get in a fist fight, it's shoot the bastards because thats what you do in the game.

Also I see parents taking young kids to movies that they shouldn't even be at. When I was a kid the world was defined as adult and then safe for children. Las Vegas was for adults, they didn't let kids in most places there and the city was not for kids. Now you have guys advertising the strip club next to a roller coaster with kids on it. There was adult entertainment or parental advisories to let parents know there was violence that might affect kids. Now parents take their kids to see Saw movies.

This new way of parenting isn't working and once the rot sets in it gets into everything and once a society gets full of corruption it's takes whole institutions down and even governments down. History is full of such scenarios. Another problem in the US was the vast wealth. There is a cycle, once a country becomes wealthy the next generations become lazy and ill behaved. Usually it destroys the country.

This isn't an overnight problem. It took 40 years to get here and now everyone is going holy shit the kids are mass murderers. Well, look at what you exposed them to. They are only acting out what they grew up on.

In short, a lot of parents made other things in life more important than their own children and the children are rebelling and lashing out. Some in very violent ways.

DONNIEP

12-16-2012, 04:37 PM

Society is fucked. When your 12 year old kid can point out all the kids at school that cut themselves there's a problem.

POJO_Risin

12-16-2012, 04:48 PM

In all honesty...fund a public school teacher and ask them what happens to the smart kids who have clear, erratic mental issues...

Public schools get jackhammered for letting these kids slip through the cracks, but find out the truth.

Before we talk about gun control with regards to this issue...start there.

Yes, gun control should be discussed in some form, but the root is more serious...

DONNIEP

12-16-2012, 04:53 PM

In all honesty...fund a public school teacher and ask them what happens to the smart kids who have clear, erratic mental issues

Good point. I have no idea what happens to them.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 06:21 PM

so glad that your more than 200 years old constitution doesn't hold more totally outdated shit like the 2nd amendment...you gun wankers would justify burning red haired women as witches too, I guess...

hello? wake up...times have changed a bit like these days:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/images/july4framed.jpg

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 06:25 PM

and just to give you a clue what we are talking about here:

http://www.youghalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/gaza3.jpg

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 06:25 PM

Pic removed

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 06:27 PM

Pic removed

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 06:31 PM

DavidLeeNatra...You sick, demented MOTHERFUCKER!!!!

envy_me

12-16-2012, 06:42 PM

DavidLeeNatra...You sick, demented MOTHERFUCKER!!!!

Take a look at your avatar before calling people sick.

Little Texan

12-16-2012, 06:43 PM

What the hell?

We could do without the images of dead children in this thread, which is highly inappropriate regarding the circumstances.

Kristy

12-16-2012, 06:44 PM

I'm of the opinion that something rather than nothing must be done. I'm not anti gun, but arming everyone everywhere only ensures a big step backwards in time will occur. Every dispute will end in someone being the quicker draw. That's insanity.

Did you ever see the movie the Incredibles? There's a great scene where the villain, Syndrome, who's powers are artificial (basically he's armed to the teeth with inventive weaponry) tells a shackled Mr. Incredible that he's going to sell all of his inventions to everybody so that everyone can be super. He closes with this truthful line, "and when everybody's super... no one will be."

You can't shun the concept of at least entertaining the notion of how passing legislation may do something rather than nothing. What's the harm in a conversation being had?

Reminds of the Star Trek episode where Kirk and Spock (when not being gay with each other) find themselves some planet that is run by 1930's style gangsters. The premise of the plot was that these gangs who lived in a culture of turf mentality, paranoia and violence (sound familiar). Anyhoo, theses gangs wanted more and more guns in order to kill off the other gangs. They escalated their love of murder for each other in the logic that the more high-powered and deadly the weapon the more right they had to them to "protect" themselves until the government er, the Federation came in and put a stop to it. That is what I see is gong to happen not too long from now.
http://startrekreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kirk-spock-car.jpg

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 06:45 PM

Seriously Natra. Post #75 good. #77 & #78 wtf's the matter with you?

Va Beach VH Fan

12-16-2012, 06:47 PM

I removed the pics, Natra....

We do not need to see pics of dead children....

Kristy

12-16-2012, 06:47 PM

Incorrect.

More mental illness = more gun violence.

Saying a gun causes violence is like saying a fork causes you to be fat.

Bullshit you fucking moron. The more guns there are the more accessible they are to the likes of the mentally ill. I mean, how else could one explain why you have one? Allegedly.

Little Texan

12-16-2012, 06:48 PM

I removed the pics, Natra....

We do not need to see pics of dead children....

Thank you, Va!

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 07:00 PM

Take a look at your avatar before calling people sick.

Do you know what a movie is? Do you know what a police officer is? Congratulations, you've just seen a police officer being portrayed in a movie. You even said cops in your insignificant country are allowed to carry guns. And that avatar was up for at least 2 months before the recent tragedy.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 07:01 PM

I removed the pics, Natra....

We do not need to see pics of dead children....

Thanks!

POJO_Risin

12-16-2012, 07:10 PM

You can't talk gun control before you talk about the lack of funding for students with these types of mental issues. They don't slip between the cracks. Educators spot them every year, report them, and watch special services spit them out for one reason or another...either with a diagnosis that may or may not fit, drugs, or nothing...and that's if the schools even move them through the process. You'll hear about parents complaining...but schools prioritize academic issues (u know, their primary reason for existing) for xtra funding...an that's even cut...

Blaze

12-16-2012, 07:11 PM

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 07:12 PM

I think people here watch too much TV and too many movies.

Blaze

12-16-2012, 07:16 PM

I posted this on the other thread, but I think it may be better served here.

http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/child-violence-is-malnutrition-the-cause

As for gun control, we are not allowed blow things up any longer for fun and sport; therefore, why do we need guns that are clearly not used in a homestead manner?

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 07:24 PM

As for gun control, we are not allowed blow things up any longer for fun and sport; therefore, why do we need guns that are clearly not used in a homestead manner?

Uhh...huh?

envy_me

12-16-2012, 07:25 PM

Do you know what a movie is? Do you know what a police officer is? Congratulations, you've just seen a police officer being portrayed in a movie. You even said cops in your insignificant country are allowed to carry guns. And that avatar was up for at least 2 months before the recent tragedy.

No way!! And I thought that it was actually you on that avatar.

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 07:26 PM

I think people here watch too much TV and too many movies.

Funny you should mention it. I've watched way less TV since I've been hanging out in these parts. How have so many in here been doing this since '04? Hats off to you. I hate sitting in front of a computer. I didn't really start doing any board posting until hand held gadgets came along.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 07:32 PM

No way!! And I thought that it was actually you on that avatar.

You still don't know when you're being busted on with sarcasm. :gulp:

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 07:33 PM

Funny you should mention it. I've watched way less TV since I've been hanging out in these parts. How have so many in here been doing this since '04? Hats off to you. I hate sitting in front of a computer. I didn't really start doing any board posting until hand held gadgets came along.

In the old days the hand held things people played with were sex organs.

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 07:40 PM

In the old days the hand held things people played with were sex organs.

While sitting at the computer? How'd anybody get any posting done?

DONNIEP

12-16-2012, 07:46 PM

While sitting at the computer? How'd anybody get any posting done?

Dude - the Nancy Grace thread has more one handed typists than an Afghani secretary pool :)

Kristy

12-16-2012, 07:53 PM

We can't stop you from posting on here !

What's worse, no one stopped your parents from hatching you.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:00 PM

where is your freedom of speach? isn't it as holy as your right to have arms, you hypocrits? THAT'S what happened in Newton but you don't want to look at it. I am not sick. this is what your weapons do, they kill kids. and that's how it looks!

a picture like that should be printed on every package of bullets and every gunbox. show that to your kids Pojo, while you let them shoot.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:02 PM

Seriously Natra. Post #75 good. #77 & #78 wtf's the matter with you?

hey...read it:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

first amendment...

Blaze

12-16-2012, 08:03 PM

Uhh...huh?
Firworks and the like; an average consumer just cannot get the the kind and quality of fireworks and firework making materials like you used to.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:05 PM

I removed the pics, Natra....

We do not need to see pics of dead children....

why not? we discuss weapons, don't we? 20 dead kids...look like this...come on, weapons are great! all you gun lovers must love these pics!

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:08 PM

What the hell?

We could do without the images of dead children in this thread, which is highly inappropriate regarding the circumstances.

no...they are totally appropiate! these ARE the circumstances.

twonabomber

12-16-2012, 08:11 PM

hey...read it:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

first amendment...

Doesn't apply to a privately owned website. Nice try.

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 08:13 PM

no...they are totally appropiate! these ARE the circumstances.

Yeah, no shit. Look, I'm on your side. Still didn't need to see them.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:19 PM

Doesn't apply to a privately owned website. Nice try.

but why regulate pics and not guns?

Blaze

12-16-2012, 08:24 PM

but why regulate pics and not guns?
Taking a look at computer-generated games, I would say photos of dead, dying, and killed are not regulated, but more rewarded.
Not to mention television.
Why people find it OK for computer-generated horrific photos and images in daily live, yet non-fictional horrific images are bad? I do not get it.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:35 PM

Taking a look at computer-generated games, I would say photos of dead, dying, and killed are not regulated, but more rewarded.
Not to mention television.
Why people find it OK for computer-generated horrific photos and images in daily live, yet non-fictional horrific images are bad? I do not get it.

because it's so easy to talk about "targets" and "units". while we are talking about human beings. these pics are too real for those gun defending people. but that's what their guns are made for.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:37 PM

Yeah, no shit. Look, I'm on your side. Still didn't need to see them.

that other asshole posted on this site that "today no kid was killed by a gun"...to declare that he is against gun control. and people call me sick?

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 08:39 PM

DavidLeeNatra...You sick, demented MOTHERFUCKER!!!!

what's your problem BigBadBaby...that's how it looks when the man in your funny avatar pulls the trigger...

Hardrock69

12-16-2012, 08:52 PM

DLR Bridge

12-16-2012, 08:56 PM

that other asshole posted on this site that "today no kid was killed by a gun"...to declare that he is against gun control. and people call me sick?

I don't think your sick. The pictures were off putting is all.

Just found out from my wife that one of the kids is related to a family friend of ours. Cute little red head named Catherine. The pit in my stomach just keeps growing larger.

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 09:00 PM

Blah blah blah blah blah.....run yer moufs...run yer moufs......run yer moufs.....

Gun Control:

Hold the pistol grip firmly in your hand, sight down the top of the weapon, then apply firm pressure to the trigger mechanism.

yeah and smash the brain of a six year old girl on the wall! that's what your founding fathers had in mind writing down the second amendment.

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 09:13 PM

While sitting at the computer? How'd anybody get any posting done?

it's called multitasking.

BigBadBrian

12-16-2012, 09:22 PM

yeah and smash the brain of a six year old girl on the wall! that's what your founding fathers had in mind writing down the second amendment.

You're a punk. :gulp:

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 09:39 PM

You're a punk. :gulp:

I just follow your logic

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:39 PM

How would you guys like it if you were Parents in some place like Yemen, and the compassionate Obama just killed your children with a predator drone strike that on average, kills 50 innocent people for one supposed "terrorist" ??

DavidLeeNatra

12-16-2012, 09:43 PM

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 09:46 PM

They don't need to...

lesfunk

12-16-2012, 09:48 PM

This thread is "Ghey"

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:02 PM

A fictional photo of adults would suffice.

http://images1.dailykos.com/i/user/5179/niko-bellic-with-shotgun.jpg
http://media.tuara.com/con/editorial/2006/07/0001163_m.jpg

OMG, This is what video games show now????? Really? :jaw:
http://screenshot.xfire.com/screenshot/large/12aed4603be9c8d8162323320f267c3d9e47e3b4.jpg

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 10:04 PM

We didn't have that kind of imagery when we were kids. Hardcore violence was destroying Stretch Armstrong after we got bored with him and to see what was inside of him.

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:05 PM

Fuck, seeing that makes this cartoon fitting and understandable, now.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dbr/lowres/dbrn419l.jpg

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:11 PM

I stumble across the supreme courts ruling about video viiolence
Reading dante and seeing that explicit graphic violence is a big difference.
At least with dante the fiction was with what happens when you are bad and not earthly.

Back to gun control, if access to explosives have changed, so should weapon access change. >:(

Nitro Express

12-16-2012, 10:13 PM

It's not the government's job to keep kids away from violent or obscene images, it's the parents. The parents are failing at their job. I really don't like censorship. If they can censor Larry Flint they can censor me but it's my responsibility as a parent to keep certain things away from my kids or and children that are in my home.

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:16 PM

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:17 PM

Back to gun control:(

How about we get some legislation to ban the meds that you and the shooter have been on for years ??

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:21 PM

How about we get some legislation to ban the meds that you and all of the shooters have been on for years ??
Oh fuck off, you c.u.n.t
You got docs on me go fuckin' for it. n!663r

I am healthier than your old cranky neuro-damaged nervous system.

My DNA alone has changed the whole fuckin medical system. Fag.

twonabomber

12-16-2012, 10:22 PM

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:23 PM

You sure as hell don't need a gun...

twonabomber

12-16-2012, 10:24 PM

Oh fuck off, you c.u.n.t
You got docs on me go fuckin' for it. n!663r

I am healthier than your old cranky neuro-damaged nervous system.

So far we've got gun owners, mental cases, and foreigners who don't have a dog in this fight posting up in this thread. Anyone left out?

And nice job dancing around the word filter, Nutjob #1.

sadaist

12-16-2012, 10:24 PM

about 14 years ago me & my mom, stepdad, and girlfriend went out to the mountains and set up a table, brought sandwiches, drinks, tons of ammo, and targets to put up. All 4 of us had just recently bought handguns. We made sure with BML that we went to an area designated for firing a gun and were very safe. We all kept trigger locks on them and then kept them inside of a safe unloaded.

That day was a lot of fun. Man time flies :(

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/sadaist/momandmeshooting.jpg

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:25 PM

You sure as hell don't need a gun...
You sure the hell do not need a gun.

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:26 PM

Oh fuck off, you c.u.n.t
You got docs on me go fuckin' for it. n!663r

I am healthier than your old cranky neuro-damaged nervous system.

My DNA alone has changed the whole fuckin medical system. Fag.

Side effects:

Behaving with Excessive Cheerfulness and Activity

Mild Degree of Mania

Having Thoughts of Suicide

Loss of One's Own Sense of Reality or Identity

sadaist

12-16-2012, 10:27 PM

That was my moms first time ever shooting a gun. She was home alone so much that she felt she needed it in the house for self defense. So I made sure she knew how to operate it safely & confidently.

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:28 PM

Side effects:

Behaving with Excessive Cheerfulness and Activity

Mild Degree of Mania

Having Thoughts of Suicide

Loss of One's Own Sense of Reality or Identity

yep, that describes you

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:29 PM

You need help...

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:30 PM

You need help...
you need help ...

Satan

12-16-2012, 10:30 PM

You sure as hell don't need a gun...

:gun:

ELVIS

12-16-2012, 10:32 PM

you need help ...

I'm gonna leave you alone now...

I don't want to trigger any more of your aggressive behavior...

Blaze

12-16-2012, 10:36 PM

I'm gonna leave you alone now...

I don't want to trigger any more of your aggressive behavior...
Good because I do not want to trigger your sociopath aggressive behavior. :yo:

WARF

12-16-2012, 10:38 PM

I have found the solution to ending violence in schools.... hire this man!

http://joethemnmovieman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/kindergarten_cop.jpg

Nickdfresh

12-16-2012, 11:52 PM

Take a look at your avatar before calling people sick.

No offense, but yours is a bit on the dicey side as well (although a bit hot)...

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 12:02 AM

n!663r

My DNA alone has changed the whole fuckin medical system.

Thats a delusion...BTW

twonabomber

12-17-2012, 12:06 AM

Isn't there a penalty for posting the N word? Even if it's cleverly misspelled?

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 12:32 AM

I can spell words so bad you can't even see the text...

:elvis:

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 12:34 AM

Isn't there a penalty for posting the N word? Even if it's cleverly misspelled?

I could highlight it...

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 12:36 AM

Oh fuck off, you c.u.n.t
You got docs on me go fuckin' for it. n!663r

:biggrin:

Blaze

12-17-2012, 01:33 AM

Thats a delusion...BTW

Well, it is for the most part true. I should have died at birth and for whatever reason I did not.
And due to the unique genetic nature of my b12 malabsorption, my DNA was requested with the statement
"we do not think we can help you, but your DNA will help create new medicines (she meant treatments) for others."
I still have the letter from the formal request.

Since that time, how b12 is administered has changed significantly in America and across the world.
I am not the only one ( I am fairly certain) that has altered DNA, as I would call it as a layman in medicine.

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 01:50 AM

I was right...:biggrin:

You're delusional...

And your DNA didn't change shit...

Blaze

12-17-2012, 02:11 AM

As you wish, sir.

Here is a note for those that morn the loss from the unexpected.
There is a quote floating around, I forget from whom it is;
America is about God, guns, and glory; we lay to rest our young for glory.
or something like that, I forget it exactly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBg9btpGqKU

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 02:18 AM

Let's discuss love gun control.

sadaist

12-17-2012, 02:38 AM

n!663r

What are you trying to spell here?

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/sadaist/Annoy.jpg

envy_me

12-17-2012, 02:44 AM

No offense, but yours is a bit on the dicey side as well (although a bit hot)...

Haha, I know, it is a bit hot :D
Although if there was some big rape case going on in the world that everyone was talking about, I'd remove it.

DONNIEP

12-17-2012, 06:51 AM

What are you trying to spell here?

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/sadaist/Annoy.jpg

Damn that was a funny episode...

Va Beach VH Fan

12-17-2012, 09:56 AM

Um, back on topic ??

Va Beach VH Fan

12-17-2012, 10:26 AM

Interesting comments from Joe....

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Kristy

12-17-2012, 11:22 AM

Good because I do not want to trigger your sociopath aggressive behavior. :yo:

That's sociopath racist aggressive behavior.

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 11:28 AM

How 'bout you and Blaze go on an extended antidepressant binge...

:mad2:

Satan

12-17-2012, 11:40 AM

I can already hear the right wingers trying to dismiss what Scarborough said...

"Those commie libruls at MSNBC have brainwashed him!!!"

BigBadBrian

12-17-2012, 12:24 PM

Feinstein plans on introducing a new gun control bill early in the new Congress.

Part of her plan: limiting magazines to 10 rounds. This is merely window dressing to appease the masses. I wonder if she realizes an accomplished shooter can drop a clip out of a Glock, Beretta, Sig-Sauer, Colt, Smith & Wesson, et al., and load a new one in just over a second. It's laws like this that do nothing and do not get to the heart of the matter.

BigBadBrian

12-17-2012, 12:25 PM

I can already hear the right wingers trying to dismiss what Scarborough said...

"Those commie libruls at MSNBC have brainwashed him!!!"

So Alan Colmes, Juan Williams, and other Liberals working at Fox are OK in your book, huh?

Satan

12-17-2012, 12:37 PM

So Alan Colmes, Juan Williams, and other Liberals working at Fox are OK in your book, huh?

Juan Williams isn't a Liberal. And Colmes is a spineless coward on FAUX. He has slightly more backbone on his radio show. Or at least used to.... I haven't listened to him in a while, since XM no longer broadcasts in Hell.

But what does any of that have to do with Scarborough actually talking sense for once in his life, rather than following the scripted Repuke talking points?

Satan

12-17-2012, 12:55 PM

:gun:

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 01:19 PM

I don't think there are too many real liberals left in this country. A real liberal hates censorship and values freedom. They don't like THE MAN and that goes for big corporations and the government. A real liberal knows their rights and values them. A liberal is about self-expression. The people who claim to be liberals today are actually authoritarians. They want to censor everyone and everything. They pander to the big corporations and banks and love big government. They claim to come from the movements of the 1960's but they lost their way and frankly, that big corporate money just was too tempting. They sold out.

BigBadBrian

12-17-2012, 01:20 PM

Juan Williams isn't a Liberal. And Colmes is a spineless coward on FAUX. He has slightly more backbone on his radio show. Or at least used to.... I haven't listened to him in a while, since XM no longer broadcasts in Hell.

But what does any of that have to do with actually talking sense for once in his life, rather than following the scripted Repuke talking points?

Juan Williams IS a Liberal, like it or not.

What did Scarborough say? I don't have time to listen to a 10.5 min video. Give me the Clif Notes version.

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 01:21 PM

I don't see a lot of conservatives or liberals anymore. I just see a lot of assholes.

Satan

12-17-2012, 01:41 PM

What did Scarborough say? I don't have time to listen to a 10.5 min video. Give me the Clif Notes version.

Here's the last part of it.....

Friday changed everything. It must change everything. We All must begin anew and demand that Washington’s old way of doing business is no longer acceptable.

Entertainment moguls do not have an absolute right to glorify murder while spreading mayhem in young minds across America.

And our Bill of Rights does not guarantee gun manufacturers the absolute right to sell military-styled high-caliber semi-automatic combat assault rifles with high capacity magazines to whoever the hell they want.

It is time for Congress to put children before deadly dogmas. It’s time for politicians to start focusing more on protecting our school yards than putting together their next fundraiser. And it’s time Washington stops trying to win endless wars overseas and instead starts focusing on winning the war at home.

We have already given up too much ground across America. We have already ceded too many schoolyards and shopping malls, movie theaters and college campuses. We will give no more ground.

Abraham Lincoln once said of this great and powerful nation…

“From whence shall we expect the approach of danger? Shall some trans-Atlantic military giant step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe and Asia…could not by force take a drink from the Ohio River or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years. No, if destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men we will live forever or die by suicide.”

For the sake of my four children, I choose life. And I choose change. It is time to turn over the tables inside the temple, for the sake of our children and for the sake of this great nation that we love.

For the most part, it sounded like a good old Keith Olbermann "special commentary" than it did what one might expect from a former right wing congressman

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 02:03 PM

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 02:08 PM

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 02:14 PM

I'm willing to bet most mass murders are not really "accomplished shooters."

Good call Nick!!!

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii535/Lbubbbba/64a91386.jpg

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 02:18 PM

Good call Nick!!!

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii535/Lbubbbba/64a91386.jpg

Do you mind not spamming this thread with your pop-ups for right wing, uneducated retards? Thanks in advance...

BTW, what belies the silly, almost self-parodying caption in the picture above is exactly what the Second Amendment describes, a "well-regulated militia." Now stop drooling on your small penis and focus on reading something you wouldn't ordinarily think of reading...

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 02:18 PM

Yeah I doubt these guys participate in the local gun range shooting tournaments. Most the people you see at the range sit at a bench carefully aiming and shooting single shots. They have the handloads they carefully loaded up at home neatly organized in a ammo block and they treat each one as if it's precious. Actually the guy who shows up with an AK or AR-15 that hoses off a bunch of shots gets nasty stares. That's most ranges I've been on. You have the guys who come in before hunting season to sight in their hunting rifles. Then you have the dedicated target shooters. These are the guys who volunteer to do some work at the range to keep it painted and clean. They come to all the meetings. The guys with the so called assault rifles just show up and hose off a bunch of shots of cheap Russian ammo. Not really serious shooters for the most part.

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 02:25 PM

An AK is great if you have a government buying your ammunition. Not so great if you have to buy it yourself. Honestly, you don't need an AK or AR-15 to protect yourself and you aren't going to take on the government with one and have any chance of winning. The government has more ammunition than you do, they have more money and better equipment and they have more people. You are only going to beat the government in a fight if a big part of the military breaks away and decides to back you.

If you want some protection from social unrest or some idiot breaking into your home, you don't need a big magazine to take care of the situation.

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 02:25 PM

Do you mind not spamming this thread with your pop-ups for right wing, uneducated retards? Thanks in advance...

BTW, what belies the silly, almost self-parodying caption in the picture above is exactly what the Second Amendment describes, a "well-regulated militia." Now stop drooling on your small penis and focus on reading something you wouldn't ordinarily think of reading...

Drooling, retards. Well played.

Was reading Dialogus de oratoribus, but the pictures are awful. Suggestion?

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 02:38 PM

Drooling, retards. Well played.

Was reading Dialogus de oratoribus, but the pictures are awful. Suggestion?

The picture's horrible and the caption is odious and intellectually flawed on all cylinders. We're not fucking North Korea or Cambodia (circa 1975) or wherever that was. No one is yet said anything about bans.

And I'm pretty sure Syria had extremely tight gun control laws, yet somehow 'the people' formed their own militias and managed to get guns whereas Rhodesia (know Zimbabwe) had universal gun ownership (by whites) and they lost the civil war there and became Zimbabwe. The notion that a few assault rifles really has much to do with preventing gov't misaction and tyranny is pretty fucking idiotic and not supported by one iota of historical precedent as people with small arms are pretty easily wiped out by a trained military supported by armored fighting vehicles, artillery, air power, etc...

How many industrialized, stable European and Asian countries have gun bans and yet the "soldiers" in the state army AREN'T wiping out their civilians? How about a nice picture of the German Heer, Norwegian Army, or Australian Air Force handing out candy to children at some PR expo as their H&K or Steyr assault rifles are locked up in the arms room?

Or how about a picture of Mexican drug lords beheading people in the streets of Tijuana while assault rifles, funded by the drugs I believe you've mentioned you used, were legally purchased in America and illegally smuggled there? I mean, those drug cartels are really intimidating the gov't with their advanced firepower and preventing it from infringing on their rights to traffic cocaine and murder their competition as well as innocent bystanders!

Satan

12-17-2012, 02:57 PM

I'm willing to bet most mass murders are not really "accomplished shooters."

This one might have been though, since his mother was a psycho gun nut militia fuckwit freak.

ELVIS

12-17-2012, 03:01 PM

That's what I was thinking...

He could be expert level...

He enrolled into College at age 16...

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 03:29 PM

This picture is undoubtedly horrible. The picture is based on your "accomplished shooters" use in context. Takes 3 to take down 1 woman.

The European model for gun control does work in the context of this thread. The thread is about "gun control".

In the UK, an affray can be considered a violent crime but may be logged different only if a person is injured and logged entirely different in another country. This doesn't say whether a gun was used in the crime in most cases.

I'm not interested in any other country and how guns have made Kings and dictators over centuries and how the peons and peasants had to revolt. I'm only interested in results within the context of US gun control.

There over 2000 laws that apply to citizens on US gun control. Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC all have draconian gun laws and the crime rates are higher. So in the context of gun control, I can only presume you mean gun removal.

In 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a handgun in the home. Bad news for those cities mentioned.

In Florida, we're about to go to 1 million conceal carry licenses. Your president is the cause whether you want to believe that or not.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-07/obama-gun-surge-take-2

I have never used any drugs other than a Zpak and Makers Mark.

Drugs are for people who can't think straight and have the need to to not think straight.

My penis isn't small. The hole in mine weighs 20 pounds.

Satan

12-17-2012, 03:33 PM

LoungeMachine

12-17-2012, 03:38 PM

AMENDMENT II to the US Constitution

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Most poorly worded sentence in the history of the English language.

You'd think something that important would've been worthy of a little more thought.

Question Brie: Why did they put in "well regulated militia"?

We need to remember they were firing muzzle loaded muskets when this thing was written.

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 03:53 PM

Most poorly worded sentence in the history of the English language.

You'd think something that important would've been worthy of a little more thought.

Question Brie: Why did they put in "well regulated militia"?

We need to remember they were firing muzzle loaded muskets when this thing was written.

Who regulates the militia? What kind of arms? Most everyone bears arms. Most of us have two of them. That's why shirts have two sleeves.

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 03:56 PM

Florida is NOT a good example to cite for gun ownership.

You have a bunch of crazy racist fucks down there murdering kids for carrying bags of Skittles or playing their music too loud and then crying "self defense".

If anything, Florida makes the case for LESS guns.

satan, you LOVE racists fucks. They keep you in business. You are a true racist, supporter of racism, and a lair.

VAiN

12-17-2012, 03:56 PM

Florida is NOT a good example to cite for gun ownership.

You have a bunch of crazy racist fucks down there

They're called 'african americans'...

I think you're confusing the population here with Alabama or something.. whitey is out-numbered around these parts.

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 03:57 PM

Ahhh just get a sling shot and some lead balls. We use them to drive the bears out of the city dump. You zing a home intruder with one they will be in agonizing pain. If you are a lousy shot, get some bear spray. Hey if it works on grizzly's it's going to work on two legged predators.

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 03:58 PM

For the record Nick, no politician will ever go door to door to collect guns.

http://ponderingprinciples.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Elian-Gonzalez.gif

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 04:02 PM

Satan thinks everyone is a freak but if I lived in hell will all those creeps down there I would think the same.

Satan

12-17-2012, 04:03 PM

satan, you LOVE racists fucks. They keep you in business. You are a true racist, supporter of racism, and a lair.

The Devil has no need for racism. You meatbags are all the same color when you burn. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d010.gif

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 04:05 PM

For the record Nick, no politician will ever go door to door to collect guns.

http://ponderingprinciples.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Elian-Gonzalez.gif

At least the US Government super cop has his finger off the trigger guard. He has goggles on so nothing can get in his eyes. You still could give him a good blast of bear spray up his nose and take that machine gun from him.

Satan

12-17-2012, 04:05 PM

They're called 'african americans'...

I think you're confusing the population here with Alabama or something.. whitey is out-numbered around these parts.

Are you going to pretend you aren't aware of the specific racist murderers that I'm referring to?

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 04:08 PM

The Devil has no need for racism. You meatbags are all the same color when you burn. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d010.gif

That sounds hotter than bear spray.

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 04:10 PM

For the record Nick, no politician will ever go door to door to collect guns.

http://ponderingprinciples.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Elian-Gonzalez.gif

They can have my guns but they will have to pry my bear spray from my cold dead fingers.

Zing!

12-17-2012, 05:14 PM

Our high school and middle school has a city police officer right in the school and they have their own office so they are there full time. The grade schools don't.

Yep - same here.

Kristy

12-17-2012, 05:23 PM

How 'bout you and Blaze go on an extended antidepressant binge...

:mad2:

How about you go fuck yourself on a Chinese made American flag? You chronically unemployed racist cornfed cracker bitch.

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 06:04 PM

This one might have been though, since his mother was a psycho gun nut militia fuckwit freak.

That's what I was thinking...

He could be expert level...

He enrolled into College at age 16...

Shooting first graders at point blank range with an M-16 derived weapon doesn't really necessitate a high degree of marksmanship. Jesus I fucking hate speculating about the macabre, horrific bullshit!

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 06:16 PM

For the record Nick, no politician will ever go door to door to collect guns.

http://ponderingprinciples.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Elian-Gonzalez.gif

But if you have small Cuban children, apparently jackbooted thugs will come through your door...

Nickdfresh

12-17-2012, 06:28 PM

This picture is undoubtedly horrible. The picture is based on your "accomplished shooters" use in context. Takes 3 to take down 1 woman.

I'm not 100% exactly what was going on, but it could be a summary execution in NK. They were possibly prepping her to be killed it this was smuggled footage - just guessing...

The European model for gun control does work in the context of this thread. The thread is about "gun control".

Then why are you posting alarmist pic's of autocratic regimes?

In the UK, an affray can be considered a violent crime but may be logged different only if a person is injured and logged entirely different in another country. This doesn't say whether a gun was used in the crime in most cases.

They don't really have many guns in the UK, if you haven't heard. Handgun ownership was almost totally banned in the 90's and even none of the uniformed police carry them - though they do have access in emergency situations...

I'm not interested in any other country and how guns have made Kings and dictators over centuries and how the peons and peasants had to revolt. I'm only interested in results within the context of US gun control.

Before guns, kings and dictators just used swords. What the fuck does that prove? The Enlightenment and Bubonic Plague probably had far more to do with the ascendancy of the middle classes than "revolts."

There over 2000 laws that apply to citizens on US gun control. Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC all have draconian gun laws and the crime rates are higher. So in the context of gun control, I can only presume you mean gun removal.

Another bullshit point. You can ban guns all you want in a metro area, but if the state next door sells firearms to some little rat with no criminal record so he can flip them to gang bangers, then the laws need to be changed. Just ask Mexico...

In 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a handgun in the home. Bad news for those cities mentioned.

I don't have a huge problem with that. Of course, having a gun can actually make you a target if they know you're out...

In Florida, we're about to go to 1 million conceal carry licenses. Your president is the cause whether you want to believe that or not.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-07/obama-gun-surge-take-2

I have relatives in Florida. One is very right wing, and has a large collection of guns. His house was targeted while he was away and several guns were stolen, possible including his M-4 assault carbine (not sure though). So, now some lucky criminals have a nice stash of illegal, but originally legally purchased guns, to kill with...

I have never used any drugs other than a Zpak and Makers Mark.

Dually noted...

Drugs are for people who can't think straight and have the need to to not think straight.

My penis isn't small. The hole in mine weighs 20 pounds.

I'm not sure what that means. Your asshole weighs 20lbs?

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 08:20 PM

I'm a 185 pound asshole Nick. I'll be the first to tell you I'm self centered and arrogant and in fantastic shape. ( heh )

This about crime. The kid stole the guns and committed crimes. The common theme is the extreme brutality that criminals apply to victims. Criminals willing to commit a crime such as a home break in are fully prepared to play out any extreme physical violence or death. The disregard for victims is chillingly inhuman.

I honestly believe the difference between you and me is this: what can happen vs. won't happen to me.

Here's my example:
In 1997, a drugged up criminal came in with a shotgun attempted to rob restaurant the I was in. Two customers with CCW licenses were watching this go forward. Neither were aware of each other. The robber became upset when the waitress couldn't open the cash box.

We both fired at the same time both using .22 magnum revolvers. The robber was hit once and he ran outside to his car breaking his shotgun on the door frame. Arrested at the hospital.

Most of us are not Tim McVeigh or militia members. But let me tie this to current events. This is a 1% issue not a 99% issue. 99% of the U.S. will never face a life or death situation. The other 1% does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wcLo_TGy7pA

Just an FYI: Democratic presidents Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy were NRA members. I'm not.

Angel

12-17-2012, 08:27 PM

Va Beach VH Fan

12-17-2012, 08:30 PM

Not surprising, unfortunately....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/sandy-hook-shooting-gun-sales_n_2317522.html

Sandy Hook Shooting Sparks Gun Sales Surge
Posted: 12/17/2012 5:40 pm EST | Updated: 12/17/2012 7:01 pm EST

The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn. has sparked a surge in gun sales, according to independent arms dealers across the nation.

Robert Caselnova, who owns a Connecticut gun shop located less than 10 minutes from the school, said firearms flew off his shelves over the weekend, with multiple requests for AR-15 style rifles, a weapon Adam Lanza used in the Newtown massacre. Caselnova said he knew the Lanzas and that the mother and son had visited his store in the past, separately, but never made any purchases.

After high-profile shootings, debate over gun control can cause consumer demand for guns to rise, government records have shown. Industry experts say fears that stricter laws will follow such incidents push people to stock up on firearms before regulators can clamp down. But last weekend’s spike in business was unprecedented, gun shop owners in California, Connecticut and North Carolina told HuffPost.

Larry Hyatt, owner of North Carolina-based Hyatt Gun Shop, which claims to be America’s largest independently owned gun store, said he had a line out the door on Saturday, forcing him to call in extra salespeople.

“We already have tons of customers because of Christmas, hunting season is peaking right now, and not to mention, the election,” Hyatt said. “But this tragedy is pushing sales through the roof,” he added. “It’s like putting gasoline on a fire.”

Last weekend’s gun rush caused the federal system that processes background checks for firearm purchases, known as the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, to experience heavy delays. The FBI, which runs the NICS database, declined to comment on the number of background checks it has received since Friday. But Paul Marquardt, owner of ArmsX, a Connecticut-based gun store near Sandy Hook Elementary, said the wait-time on Saturday for a background check was nearly an hour -- the longest wait-time he’s ever seen.

“The two busiest days I’ve witnessed during my four years in the business,” Marquardt said, “was the day after Obama was elected, and ahead of that, last Saturday.”

The Black Friday after the Nov. 6 election, gun sales across the country broke records, crashing the FBI's background check system, according to The Denver Post.

At Ade's Gun Shop in Orange, Calif., manager Lisa Atkinson said Saturday was the biggest day the shop has ever had, with some $13,000 in sales.

"It was the first time we had to call a nearby gun shop to see if they could sell us a gun because we had run out," Atkinson told The Huffington Post. "It's been crazy."

In Arizona, one-day gun sales jumped 60 percent after a gunman killed six people in a Tuscon parking lot and wounded others, including then-U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. Similarly, in Colorado, after 12 people were killed inside a suburban movie theater in July, background checks for gun purchases reportedly spiked 41 percent. In the wake of the Sandy Hook tragedy, these checks have spiked again, reaching a record-high for the year.

The AR-15 style rifle, a weapon of choice in both the Colorado shooting and last Friday’s shooting in Connecticut, accounted for more than 25 percent of ArmsX’s recent sales, Marquardt said.

Freedom Group, the weapon's manufacturer, reported a 20 percent increase in revenue for the first nine months of this year. “The manufacturers [of the AR-15] can’t keep up with the demand,” Caselnova said.

Not all gun shop owners saw more business over the weekend. Chad Sumner, who works for his family's shooting range and gun shop, Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Ky., said the mass shooting did not affect foot traffic, but that the increased talk of an assault weapons ban added an element of uncertainty.

"Another assault weapons ban [would] really limit our sales," he said. "People like the assault weapons. People say they are useless, but so are dragsters. Why do people want to drive a dragster down a drag strip?"

Brandy Liss, owner of the The Arms Room, a shooting range and gun shop in League City, Texas, said she opposed stricter gun laws, noting that Friday's killer had broken dozens of laws during his shooting rampage.

"Most people feel that if teachers had ability to protect themselves, there would have been less casualties," Liss told HuffPost in a phone call on Monday.

Protection and the government's failure to provide it is part of the reason gun sales are rising, Hyatt said, adding that the economic downturn spawned a growing belief among his customers that the U.S. is ill-equipped to safeguard its citizens. “You can’t get enough police to protect us, the jails are full, the mental health system is failing us,” he said. “That’s why more people are buying weapons, to protect themselves and their families.”

Hyatt said he wishes his staff had better information on whether buyers had a history of mental health issues. A 2010 investigation by The Washington Post ranked Hyatt Gun Shop second on a list of American gun dealers that had the most traces for firearms recovered by the police.

“Every gun you sell,” Hyatt added, “you have to worry whether that customer is competent, or whose hands that gun may end up in.”

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 08:50 PM

I was held up at gunpoint when I was 19. He got flustered when I couldn't open the safe and just had me fill his bag with the money from the till. Nobody got hurt....except for the PTSD I had to deal with. When it comes to robberies, just give them the fucking money. The business is insured.

Not worth getting shot over money but you just don't know what they are going to do. I had a friend who had a revolver pulled on him and he just grabbed the cylinder so it wouldn't rotate and fire and grabbed it out of the guy's hand. On some of the semi-automatics you can push the slide and barrel back and put the gun out of battery so it won't fire. On the Beretta 92 you can pull the whole barrel and slide off the gun if you know the trick and are good at it. This is why police officers stopped using that weapon.

I don't know what you are going to do with that weapon. I don't know if you are just going to shoot me anyways so they better not be too close to me and they better be willing to use it.

DONNIEP

12-17-2012, 08:52 PM

I wonder how many of those purchasers have never owned a gun or rifle before and have no idea how to even operate the damned things?

Nitro Express

12-17-2012, 08:56 PM

I wonder how many of those purchasers have never owned a gun or rifle before and have no idea how to even operate the damned things?

You buy a new gun today it comes with all sorts of safety books and instruction manuals. Most manufactures even give you a safety lock with the gun. If the person bothers to read it all they are pretty well informed on the do's and don'ts.

78/84 guy

12-17-2012, 09:00 PM

I don't see a lot of conservatives or liberals anymore. I just see a lot of assholes.

At the end of the day in this country anyone involved in politics is a self serving pile of fucking shit ! They might start out with good intentions but............It's ALL about getting their way. Meaning their party. I'm all for having your own beliefs and ideas, but it's so far out of control it's sickning. No give or take. I see inteviews with these people and they down right scare me with their ideas ! And what scares me more is knowing that someone voted for them !I'm ready for the revolution ! Lol.

jacksmar

12-17-2012, 09:13 PM

DONNIEP

12-17-2012, 09:16 PM

You buy a new gun today it comes with all sorts of safety books and instruction manuals. Most manufactures even give you a safety lock with the gun. If the person bothers to read it all they are pretty well informed on the do's and don'ts.

Yeah, I know. But how many people bother reading the instructions for their new blue ray player, much less the operating manual for an AR?

78/84 guy

12-17-2012, 09:24 PM

Yeah, I know. But how many people bother reading the instructions for their new blue ray player, much less the operating manual for an AR?

And if that's true. Do us all a favor and don't buy a gun !

DONNIEP

12-17-2012, 09:31 PM

And if that's true. Do us all a favor and don't buy a gun !

That's what I'm getting at. My neighbor - perfect example. Last year he bought a decent AR, dropped about a grand on it. Basic model. He was all excited to show it to me so I says "how's it shoot?" To this day he's never shot it and I guarantee you he doesn't know the first thing about it. I'd be surprised if he could actually charge the weapon. And at the very least that's an accidental discharge waiting to happen.

78/84 guy

12-17-2012, 09:38 PM

It is a big part of the problem. Fucking people that think they know better. Like this dumb bitch teaching her sick kid how to use a gun. It is beyond belief for me ! I just don't get it.

Satan

12-17-2012, 10:15 PM

Published on Sunday, December 16, 2012 by The Nation
by John Nichols

The first response of any country to violence of the sort seen in Connecticut must be one of horror.

And sorrow.

President Obama showed that sorrow when he wiped his tears, like those so many Americans shed Friday.

But there is nothing more absurd than the suggestion that it is wrong to raise political concerns at a moment such as this.

It is in a moment such as this that responsible nations examine themselves, their cultures, their laws.

Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich is right when he says, “There is an undercurrent of violence in our society that is becoming more powerful.” He is right, as well, when he says, “We must reject violence and take an organized approach to averting violence.”

This is about more than guns. It is about healthcare, particularly mental health care. It is about media.

And it is about the quality of our discourse—what we allow ourselves to discuss, and how we discuss it.

California Congressman George Miller says: “We must come together as a nation to honestly discuss how to prevent people intent on carrying out these savage attacks from so easily obtaining guns and ammunition. The nation is ready for this conversation. More importantly, though, the safety of children and all Americans demands we have it.”

So why don’t we have that discussion?

It is easy to blame the National Rifle Association.

But it’s important to go beyond “easy” and understand that the NRA never walks alone. Reasonable people may have reasonable differences about how, when, where and whether to address the concerns Miller raises with regard to sales of assault weapons and ammunition. But no one should be comfortable with those who seek to silence the discourse and control against public responses to violence.

In this regard, the NRA has a powerful ally at the level of government, where the most meaningful interventions against violence can and frequently must be made.

The American Legislative Exchange Council, the Koch Brothers–guided group that aligns corporations with conservative legislators who will introduce the “model legislation” crafted by those corporations, has been in the forefront not just of averting sensible gun control but of trying to shut down public debate about gun control.

ALEC is known, of course, for its advocacy on behalf of the so-called “stand your ground,” or “shoot first,” or “kill at will” laws that became so much of an issue in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin slaying in Florida.

But, as the Center for Media and Democracy’s “ALEC Exposed” project has revealed, the group has a long history of seeking to undermine meaningful public discourse with regard to violence. ALEC does not merely oppose gun control, it seeks to prevent communities, states and the nation from even discussing gun control.

The group has, for instance, promoted:

A “Resolution on Semi-Automatic Firearms” that expresses opposition to proposals by local, state and federal governments to restrict the sale of semi-automatic weapons, known as assault weapons.

A “Defense of Free Market and Public Safety Resolution” that discourages efforts by law enforcement agencies to use their purchasing power to buy police and policing weapons only from gun manufacturers that improve gun safety to protect children. The same resolution discourages efforts to identify and limit public contracting with gun dealers that are not notorious for selling weapons used in crimes.

A unanimous 2011 endorsement by ALEC’s “Public Safety and Elections Task Force” of a proposal to expressly bar cities from banning machine guns.

Again and again in recent years, ALEC has worked not just to promote the economic agenda of weapons manufacturers and weapons dealers—including major retailers that sell guns and ammunition—but to undermine political debates about that agenda.

Many corporations exited ALEC as the role of the group in promoting “stand your ground” laws was exposed after the Trayvon Martin shooting. But many more, including ExxonMobil Corporation, GlaxoSmithKline, Koch Industries Inc., Pfizer Inc., PhRMA, Reynolds American Inc., United Parcel Service, AT&T and State Farm Insurance Companies—among others—remain ALEC members and sponsors.

These corporations may want to separate themselves from the crudest of ALEC’s anti-democratic initiatives. But they make ALEC possible, and strong, as do the better part of 2,000 legislators who remain aligned with the group.

When we seek to understand why we don’t have the discussion—and the action—that we should about violence, the place to begin is with those who seek to preempt debates and to limit the ability of communities, states and the federal government to respond to the cries of horrified and sorrowful Americans for a real response to individual incidents and patterns of violence that break our hearts.

© 2012 The Nation

John Nichols

John Nichols is Washington correspondent for The Nation and associate editor of The Capital Times in Madison, Wisconsin. His most recent book is The “S” Word: A Short History of an American Tradition. A co-founder of the media reform organization Free Press, Nichols is co-author with Robert W. McChesney of The Death and Life of American Journalism: The Media Revolution that Will Begin the World Again and Tragedy & Farce: How the American Media Sell Wars, Spin Elections, and Destroy Democracy. Nichols' other books include: Dick: The Man Who is President and The Genius of Impeachment: The Founders' Cure for Royalism.

Hardrock69

12-18-2012, 12:13 AM

Why is it the motherfucking media makes it a point to go overboard when people are victims of gun violence, but when someone with a gun PREVENTS mass shootings, they hardly report on it? :mad:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/12/17/Armed-Off-duty-cop-prevents-mass-shooting-in-San-Antonio

WOAI: SAN ANTONIO - Gunfire erupted at the Mayan Palace Theatre on Southwest Military Sunday night just before 9:30 pm. This shooting comes just days after a deadly rampage at a school in Connecticut and sparks memories of the the mass slaying at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.

An armed off-duty deputy working security was able to take down the shooter before he could kill anyone.

Investigators tell News 4 WOAI the gunman is 19-year-old Jesus Manuel Garcia. They say he worked at the China Garden restaurant right next to the Mayan Palace Theater. Police say Garcia opened fire at China Garden because of relationship problems with his girlfriend who also worked at the restaurant, although she was not present at the time. Officers explain that Garcia then continued to fire his weapon across the parking lot and into the theater. Garcia even opened fire on a San Antonio Police Department patrol car explained Detective Lou Antu, spokesman for the Bexar County Sherriff's Office.

“Everybody was just coming out of the side of the theater, running out the emergency exits. And everyone was screaming and running,” explained a moviegoer named Megan.

Garcia was finally stopped by a deputy who was working an off-duty job at the theater. The deputy shot Garcia four times. "The officer involved, she took the appropriate action to try to keep everyone safe in the movie theater," Antu said. Antu says the gunman never made it into the theater itself, thanks largely to the heroic work of the off duty deputy. "She did what she felt she had to do," Antu said. "I feel that she saved a lot of lives by taking the action she had to take." Garcia has since undergone surgery and is in stable condition at San Antonio Military Medical Center (SAMMC). He's being charged with aggravated assault for shooting at an officer and shooting a bystander. That bystander is listed in stable condition.

DONNIEP

12-18-2012, 12:23 AM

I would feel much better if the off duty chick had been unarmed.

LoungeMachine

12-18-2012, 12:30 AM

I was held up at gunpoint when I was 19. He got flustered when I couldn't open the safe and just had me fill his bag with the money from the till. Nobody got hurt....except for the PTSD I had to deal with. When it comes to robberies, just give them the fucking money. The business is insured.

I was 21, and working at a deli.

7am and the guy stuck a .44 Magnum against my neck. Gave him the lousy $200 bucks from the till.

Then for some unknown reason I chased after him....that is until he turned and pointed fucking gun at me. That was the moment I realized it wasn't my money, and I didn't give a shit.

Spent 2 hours with the cops going over mug shots, and then my asshole boss made me stay for my whole shift.

:gulp:

I can still feel the cold metal.

jhale667

12-18-2012, 12:42 AM

Soledad pwns professional gun nut

twonabomber

12-18-2012, 12:43 AM

Local gun shop owner posted this on his blog today. He always refers to the president as "Obuma." I will also leave the typos in, this guy used to be a teacher.

While I was "gone away" in the hospital, I followed some of the recent school murders. I see the Obuma character sorta-kinda making the suggestion that he is going to use his "office" to make sure these murders of our school children does not happen again. He should leave guns alone and concentrate on WHY mentally ill people are out on our streets to do whatever they please.

Here are my solutions to the school murders. These are all solutions I have talked about on this blog for YEARS. The predictions I have given have all come home to roost. Of course. Liberalism must be scrubbed from the "protection" of our school children and good logical thought applied.

1. If a school where your children are educated has a "No Gun Zone", you must IMMEDIATELY pull your child until the next school board meeting and then stand up -with other parents - and DEMAND that this sign be removed and be replaced with the following: "Armed Guard On Duty and SWAT Team On Ready. Intruders will be met with harshly." Of course. As we have said before, these "No Gun Zones" of schools are an INVITATION to a mentally ill person to take a gun and kill your children WITHOUT INTERRUPTION. Period. I have in the past engaged in hundreds of discussions on this matter. I am 100% correct. Where have all of the shootings occurred? Answer: Schools and malls that are posted as HAVING NO RESISTENCE WHATSOEVER.

2. While in the school board meeting, DEMAND that an armed, sworn law enforcement officer be hired every one of the 180 days that your children are school. Likewise, a hard-wired instant response to a SWAT team must be present. The SWAT team needs to PRACTICE in YOUR kids' school(s). Notice that Chardon High School was a practice school for the local SWAT team. It did little good in actuality.

3. All first responders MUST swear they will enter any school building in their precinct and engage the shooter IMMEDIATELY. Think of the lessons of Columbine where supposed sworn law enforcement armed officials cowered behind armored vehicles while kids fell out of windows dead from gunshot wounds. Those days BETTER be over... If law enforcement is not going to go in and engage a shooter IMMEDIATELY, they need to be removed from the force immediately. This is a new day. Think of it if your kid was in there...

4. We must return to the days of locked-down institutions where mentally ill people are isolated from society. Sad, but WHY are mentally ill people - many stone-dead VIOLENT - allowed to remain in homes where they surely will - and have - automatic weapons and turned them on the innocent? Why is this allowed to happen? It is a gross irresponsibility.

5. If you have firearms and a mentally ill person, you MUST keep the firearms in a safe. This is basic responsibility.

These are the only solutions. Think about it: The murderers broke about 20 gun/ammunition laws when killing the children. More laws mean nothing. They are as useless as a sign that says: "Do not bring your gun into the gun-free zone." Likewise, there are 440 million guns in this country and NO ONE is giving any up. Second Amendment - believe it.

I think the only part of that I agree with is #5, and that more laws mean nothing.

Angel

12-18-2012, 12:49 AM

I was 21, and working at a deli.

7am and the guy stuck a .44 Magnum against my neck. Gave him the lousy $200 bucks from the till.

Then for some unknown reason I chased after him....that is until he turned and pointed fucking gun at me. That was the moment I realized it wasn't my money, and I didn't give a shit.

Spent 2 hours with the cops going over mug shots, and then my asshole boss made me stay for my whole shift.

:gulp:

I can still feel the cold metal.

Mine was a sawed off double barrel shotgun at a 24 hour restaurant. It was obviously an "inside" job. The owner had a car wash across the street, and we held their float. He knew about that float and where it was kept. Problem was, he was covered head to foot. The only identifying thing I could see was his red curly pony tail as he left. I was interrogated for about 4 hours. My employer gave me shit for not taking the elastic band off the marked bills in the till.

My PTSD was pretty bad. I was scared to leave the house for about two weeks, and work was terrifying after that.