British Soldier Killed In Londonistan

[ashstralia]

Yessir... islam; the religion of peace.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/woolwich-attack-victim-named-as-drummer-lee-rigby-mi5-had-investigated-suspects/story-fndir2ev-1226650212912

[vandeleur]

The whole thing is so so fucked up .
You think the world is so full of terrible things that you become insensitive to stuff and the then shit like that happens and you get shocked to the core .
It's a terrible tragedy .

[ashstralia]

it's truly fucked vandy.

this bullshit 'religion' should be fucking outlawed...

in other news, the lovely peaceful immigrants in sweden are kicking off too! multiculturalism at it's finest.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/stockholm-police-call-in-reinforcements/story-e6frfkui-1226649605184

[binnie]

These guys are really not typical in any way of Muslims (it appears that were not acting at the behest of any group).

Put it this way: there are 'Christians' perpetrating horrible crimes in Africa - but no-one would suggest that makes your average US Churchgoer a potential terrorist; Andreas Brevik is white and Norwegian, but no-one would suggest that all white people or Norwegians are potential terrorists. Explaining away people's heinous actions by recourse to some ideology/religion just removes their agency and risks divorcing blame from them.

Acts like this are sickening, and they naturally provoke emotional responses. But we shouldn't confuse 'Islamism' - political Islam, which is concerned with Jihad and foreign policy - with Islam the religion. The Muslim council of Great Britain - and many other Muslim groups - have been very, very vocal in condeming this act: they are as horrified as the rest of us. Identity politics is a weird beast: these guys may have elected to speak for all Muslims as they committed this crime, but it is incredibly clear that no-one elected them to do so!

It is a time for cool heads, not hot ones.

[vandeleur]

The problem this plays right into the hands of all these right wing extreme groups .
They were all ready on the streets the day after the tragedy , it's just more fuel for the fire for either side.
Actually judging by the comments amongst my social circle acts like this stretch even the most neutral and fair minded person to express racist and angry sentiments .

[ashstralia]

binnie, i admire your stance and clear voice of reason. but the sad fact is that there are disenfranchised young men being indoctrinated into a hardline stance in their adopted countries...

in fact i believe these fine young men in question were born in the uk to strict nigerian christian parents, and converted in their teenage years.

we had a little kerfuffle here last year you may recall, but our cops take no shit and quickly squashed it as you would a cockroach.

[ashstralia]

the edl are their own worst enemy.. lagering up and kicking off with the old bill is 'ardly a good look, innit?

[binnie]

binnie, i admire your stance and clear voice of reason. but the sad fact is that there are disenfranchised young men being indoctrinated into a hardline stance in their adopted countries...

in fact i believe these fine young men in question were born in the uk to strict nigerian christian parents, and converted in their teenage years.

we had a little kerfuffle here last year you may recall, but our cops take no shit and quickly squashed it as you would a cockroach.

Exactly. Indoctrinated by extremists, not run-of-the-mill Muslims.

My fear is that two extreme cases like this are used as evidence to increase hostility against Muslims more generally, which just adds more grist to the extremists mill and repeats the cycle.

These were two individuals with incredibly warped views on the world. They are not representative of a religion, a race, of anything else.

A generation ago it was the IRA and other dissident Irish groups who bombed Britain, but it would be laughable today to suggest that all Irish Catholics or Protestants had a prediliction to terrorism: once we get to perspective we can begin to see what these events really are, the tragic consequences of extremism.

[ashstralia]

quite right. we've actually had reason to deport some of these 'imam' types who use the cover of the mosque to preach hate and violence.

in a way, i understand what drives the hate. western forces invading foreign lands on false pretexts is something i've never been comfortable with.
probably much like yourself, i've many friends of all colours, creeds, beliefs etc. and politically i'd count myself far more 'left' than many on this board.

unfortunately when these unprecedented incidents happen, it does cast a pall over the group as a whole. whether it's breivik, mcveigh, these goons, whatever.

[binnie]

quite right. we've actually had reason to deport some of these 'imam' types who use the cover of the mosque to preach hate and violence.

in a way, i understand what drives the hate. western forces invading foreign lands on false pretexts is something i've never been comfortable with.
probably much like yourself, i've many friends of all colours, creeds, beliefs etc. and politically i'd count myself far more 'left' than many on this board.

unfortunately when these unprecedented incidents happen, it does cast a pall over the group as a whole. whether it's breivik, mcveigh, these goons, whatever.

Indeed. The British government has been trying to deport several such figures too. The problem is evidence, however, and not contradicting laws around free speech; also, in many case, human rights - extradicting someone to a country where they are a) likely to be tortured; or b) face a trial in which evidence against them has been collected using torture breaks the mandates on human rights. I respect those mandates, but it must be incredibly difficult for governments/intelligence agencies.

I was thinking about what you said about being left-leaning just this morning. It strikes me that a lot of what these two men were preaching in the street - Western wars killing tens of thousands of innocents, women and children, and being illegal - is all part of the rhetoric of the left as much as extreme Islam, and views which I and many of my friends are sympathetic too (the war in Iraq being illegal, for example; and I know many people who think that Blair/Bush should be investigated as war criminals). The problem is how a person jumps from being outraged at their own government to thinking that they have the right to attack it (which we are all horrifed by).

[Angel]

It would help if the media showed more stories like this. We probably would be fucked right now if the Muslim community hadn't tipped the authorities. I wonder how many times it's happened without being reported?

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/23/harper-mulcair-thank-muslim-community-for-its-role-in-thwarting-alleged-terror-plot

[ashstralia]

"He said he has a simple message for those who might engage in criminal activity: “You have nothing to do with our faith.”"

^^ that's it, right there.

[Nitro Express]

One bible story that always bothered me since childhood was Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son. Now that is some twisted shit and the God of Abraham is clearly a jealous psychopath. Also the story of Abraham makes it ok to treat women like property and says a caste system is ok. One group is better than the other group. Most of our modern religious problems stem from the teachings of Abraham. When one group believes they are better than the other in the eyes of God well you can justify all sorts of behavior. I never liked the story of Abraham. As a small kid I saw it was a bad concept and as an adult I see nothing but bad fruit comes of it.

[Nitro Express]

quite right. we've actually had reason to deport some of these 'imam' types who use the cover of the mosque to preach hate and violence.

in a way, i understand what drives the hate. western forces invading foreign lands on false pretexts is something i've never been comfortable with.
probably much like yourself, i've many friends of all colours, creeds, beliefs etc. and politically i'd count myself far more 'left' than many on this board.

unfortunately when these unprecedented incidents happen, it does cast a pall over the group as a whole. whether it's breivik, mcveigh, these goons, whatever.

I think the big western war machine which the US is the biggest player wants more terror to keep the excuse of waging nonstop war. The military industrial complex makes money and they have more excuses to grab more power at home and take basic freedoms and rights from the citizens. Handy when the western banking system is on the edge of collapse and you are looking for an excuse to use thuggery to just take things before the confidence in the system completely fails.

The muslims aren't the problem. They are just being played like the rest of us are being played by western bankers. All they do is kick the muslim anthill and then exploit the result.

[ashstralia]

yeah, bit hypocritical of any faith to declare that theirs is 'the one true one' isn't it?

btw; R.I.P- Lee Rigby

[Nitro Express]

If the human race really was smart they would stop the petty fighting and organize together to take the big banks down. Hey Ahmad. They are playing us. Let's put these petty religious differences aside and go to Goldman Sachs and get the real problem. Look at us. They have us fighting each other on religion, over what political party is better, hell even the gay agenda is promoted because it divides people. That's what they want. They want us divided because it keeps us weak.

[vandeleur]

What I don't understand is these are British people , this whole speech about this going on everyday in his country is bullshit THIS is his country .
It's like the 7/7 bombers they wernt people from another country bringing terror here it's our own people .

[ELVIS]

the sad fact is that there are disenfranchised young men being indoctrinated into a hardline stance in their adopted countries by the CIA...



You're catching on, my friend...;)

[ashstralia]

elvis, please don't peddle your conspiracy shite here.

i ain't buying.:wtf:

[sadaist]

These guys are really not typical in any way of Muslims


Sorry man, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing that line over & over & over after every horrifying, disgusting act of murder.

[DLR Bridge]

Did I read right, that it took police a half hour to arrive on the scene? That's outrageous.

[binnie]

Sorry man, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing that line over & over & over after every horrifying, disgusting act of murder.

I get equally tired of people dropping into lazy thinking in response to such acts - and by lazing thinking I mean tarring every 'type' of person with the same brush or, worse still, falling into racism.

After events like this we naturally want explanations, but it is too easy to say 'it's because they're Muslim'. Why wasn't Brevik explained with 'it's because he's white'? Simply put, it is because it wouldn't work - he was untypical of white people, even those on the right-wing of the political spectrum.

But, yes, this was an horrific act. No arguments there.

[ashstralia]

i've read it was anywhere from 7 mins to 20..

quite often, it takes people a bit of time to process what they're witnessing and then actually make the call. then the dispatcher has to get the person to calm down and give details.

[binnie]

I think it depends whether the report in question is referring to the regular police or the armed response unit (i.e. with guns) who may have been slightly slower.

[vandeleur]

I think the police we there quickly it was getting an armed response team there that took the time . Ironic that that would be the case next to an army barrack.

One amazing thing if you can take any solice at times like these were these women who went over to the body and stopped the twats doing anything more to it and then approched the bastards. How brave and heroic were these women.

[DLR Bridge]

I think the police were there quickly...

Stupid question time. Do these policemen carry guns?

[vandeleur]

No british police dont carry guns , there are 12 armed response units on patrol in care in london at any one time. These guys have guns.

[DLR Bridge]

That's absolutely ridiculous. This day and age, anyone with a badge should be packing.

[vandeleur]

I dont agree with you but this probably isnt the time or the place and it wouldnt have helped in this tragedy.

[binnie]

One amazing thing if you can take any solice at times like these were these women who went over to the body and stopped the twats doing anything more to it and then approched the bastards. How brave and heroic were these women.

Very heroic indeed (I sense if a man had approach them he would have been butchered; perhaps they didn't see women as a threat - still very heroic on their part).

Interesting that the EDL etc have made of the fact that woman who got off a bus to give the solider first aid was not 'British by birth'.......

[DLR Bridge]

Please forgive my being curt. An armed beat cop within ear shot of the screeching tires that led to the crash could have altered the outcome.

[vandeleur]

We have some bat shit EDL protest in the Toon tomorrow ...I hate that shit.

[vandeleur]

Please forgive my being curt. An armed beat cop within ear shot of the screeching tires that led to the crash could have altered the outcome.

Think its all if's and but's now. think it was all over pretty quickly from the reports and the guys who did it even passerbys who were close thought they were trying ot resuscitate the guy after an accident.

[ashstralia]

We have some bat shit EDL protest in the Toon tomorrow ...I hate that shit.

yes mate the tit for tat business does neither side any favours...
the cronulla riots here being a good case in point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

[binnie]

Please forgive my being curt. An armed beat cop within ear shot of the screeching tires that led to the crash could have altered the outcome.

As Vandeleur said, this isn't the right thread to debate this. But the fact is that the British public do not want their police to be armed (outside of armed response units); and the police do not want it, either. This is a nation which is very uncomfortable with the idea of handing officers of the state powers to effectively execute people on the spot, and in an country where guns are rare (I myself have never seen a gun outside of a museum and I imagine that almost everyone I know would have the same experience) it is largely uneccesary - yes, criminal elements have guns, but they are still few and far between (although not as rare as might be hoped).

This is one area where the UK and US cultures are hugely different. Not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just explaining the difference.

(You could also argue the case the other way: if the police were armed on a rountine basis, these guys would have turned up heavily armed and prepared to shoot).

[vandeleur]

As Vandeleur said, this isn't the right thread to debate this. But the fact is that the British public do not want their police to be armed (outside of armed response units); and the police do not want it, either. This is a nation which is very uncomfortable with the idea of handing officers of the state powers to effectively execute people on the spot, and in an country where guns are rare (I myself have never seen a gun outside of a museum and I imagine that almost everyone I know would have the same experience) it is largely uneccesary - yes, criminal elements have guns, but they are still few and far between (although not as rare as might be hoped).

This is one area where the UK and US cultures are hugely different. Not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just explaining the difference.

(You could also argue the case the other way: if the police were armed on a rountine basis, these guys would have turned up heavily armed and prepared to shoot).

Well put Binnie , you nailed what I was feeling better than I could.

[DLR Bridge]

Again, my apologies for offending. I'm not usually the Monday morning quarterback type, but I guess there is a more cultural divide between U.S. and England than I was aware of.

In these truly shitty times we're living in, I appreciate seeing these guys on the platform of my train station periodically. I'm not bothered by their presence in the least. I know their goal is to ensure I make it home to my family.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/25/e4y8yva4.jpg

[vandeleur]

No offence taken DLR ur cool.

[Nitro Express]

Please forgive my being curt. An armed beat cop within ear shot of the screeching tires that led to the crash could have altered the outcome.


An armed citizen stopped a stabbing in Salt Lake City. You never hear these incidents reported in the national news.
http://fox13now.com/2012/04/26/two-stabbed-in-downtown-slc-parking-lot/

[DLR Bridge]

I'm not pro-armed citizen, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.

RIP Lee Rigby

[BITEYOASS]

If anyone else is to be blamed, it would be that dipshit by the name of Anjem Choudary.

[sadaist]

I get equally tired of people dropping into lazy thinking in response to such acts - and by lazing thinking I mean tarring every 'type' of person with the same brush or, worse still, falling into racism.

After events like this we naturally want explanations, but it is too easy to say 'it's because they're Muslim'. Why wasn't Brevik explained with 'it's because he's white'? Simply put, it is because it wouldn't work - he was untypical of white people, even those on the right-wing of the political spectrum.

But, yes, this was an horrific act. No arguments there.



You mean like when it was initially blamed on him being right-wing, and then a gamer?

[Seshmeister]

One bible story that always bothered me since childhood was Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son. Now that is some twisted shit and the God of Abraham is clearly a jealous psychopath. Also the story of Abraham makes it ok to treat women like property and says a caste system is ok. One group is better than the other group. Most of our modern religious problems stem from the teachings of Abraham. When one group believes they are better than the other in the eyes of God well you can justify all sorts of behavior. I never liked the story of Abraham. As a small kid I saw it was a bad concept and as an adult I see nothing but bad fruit comes of it.

The same concept is throughout the teachings of Jesus too. The doctrine is to put the religion BEFORE your family.

It's important because the family unit is/was fundamental to humans. In order to control them effectively you have to wield power that supersedes that. You can bet that the murderers families would have been against their actions.

[Seshmeister]

I myself have never seen a gun outside of a museum and I imagine that almost everyone I know would have the same experience


That's maybe slightly over egging it - most times you go through an airport you will see heavily armed police.

[ELVIS]

You can bet that the murderers families would have been against their actions.

Your critical thinking is like ummm...nonexistent and stuff...

You really need to get off the sauce...

You haven't much brain left...;)

[Seshmeister]

I'll let your posts speak for themselves on that as you blindly follow a shock jock and a quack dentist. :D

[ELVIS]

I have the best dentist around...

[ashstralia]

I have the best dentist around...

you hand 'em over while you do yer shoppin, an he gives 'em back nice n clean? i can see a market for that.

[Nitro Express]

The same concept is throughout the teachings of Jesus too. The doctrine is to put the religion BEFORE your family.

It's important because the family unit is/was fundamental to humans. In order to control them effectively you have to wield power that supersedes that. You can bet that the murderers families would have been against their actions.

I really don't have a problem with the base teachings of Jesus. SOME christian church's teach the church before family thing not all of them and yes organized religion is mostly about control. There is a sect of christians out of India who refuse to organize a church because as soon as you do that, someone comes in and takes it over and corrupts it. So they have their groups and they get together but not under a central authority.

I just find the current religion bashing trend as a divide and conquer type thing. Anything to get the population fighting against each other is good for those who are ripping us off and using us as an ATM. Get us distracted over some trivial shit so we can't figure out the real problem and it isn't religion. It's what's behind the religion.

[Seshmeister]

Seems pretty clear to me.

Matthew:
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[vandeleur]

Is that from viz or are they the times your mate text you :D

[Seshmeister]

No Larson... :)

http://media.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/cartoon-god-larson-e1354290552831.jpeg

[binnie]

You mean like when it was initially blamed on him being right-wing, and then a gamer?

Exactly.

(Although I've not come across the British press going down that right-wing blame-game for this incident - right-wing usually has connotations for white ultra-conservatism here)

[FORD]

I have the best dentist around...

Dr Oily Twatz??

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/orly-taitz-dentist-cropped-proto-custom_28.jpg

[ELVIS]

Seems pretty clear to me.



You taking scripture out of context and then complaining about it is what's clear to me...

[Anonymous]

No Larson... :)

http://media.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/cartoon-god-larson-e1354290552831.jpeg

I read Jews, first.

Oy vey!

Cheers! :beers:

[Seshmeister]

You taking scripture out of context and then complaining about it is what's clear to me...

How was that out of context?

[ashstralia]

for Lee Rigby's sake, this shouldn't just disappear down the bottom of the page.