Moore: Americans are 'The Dumbest People on the Planet'

[John Ashcroft]

Americans currently flocking to see Michael Moore's movie "Farenheit 9/11" might be surprised to learn how little respect the Democratic Party's leading propaganda-meister has for them.

''They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet," Moore told Britain's Mirror newspaper recently, referring to his fellow citizens as a whole.

And that's not all Moore had to say about his brother Yanks across the pond. ''We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing.''
Turns out, when the Democratic Party's all-but-official filmmaker is speaking at home, he has nice things to say about at least some of his fellow citizens. But according to New York Times columnist David Brooks, when Moore travels abroad it's not just the Bush administration he trashes - but the American people en-masse.

Here's a few more bon mots from the Kerry campaign's leading celluloid supporter, as cited by Mr. Brooks on Saturday:

''That's why we're smiling all the time,'' Moore told a rapturous throng in Munich. ''You can see us coming down the street. You know, 'Hey! Hi! How's it going?' We've got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren't loaded down.''

To a crowd in Cambridge, Moore intoned: ''You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.''

Here's Moore's reaction to the 9/11 attacks, offered while the rubble at Ground Zero was still smoldering: ''We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants.''

As for the terrorists currently killing American soldiers in Iraq, Moore compares them to Revolutionary war heroes who fought off British oppression:

''The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.''

Link: here, suckers (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/26/103545.shtml)

[pete]

In the words of the great Paul Harvey:...It's true.

[Viking]

:rolleyes:

[John Ashcroft]

Interesting pete... I've lived overseas (in Europe). And I've stayed for extended periods of time in many many foreign countries. I wonder if the good Mr. Moore has ever lived amongst the people he holds in such high regard. I wonder if you have.

I mean, you should at least have the proper perspective before making such a sweeping generalization about your fellow Americans, no?

[FORD]

You know damn well that the "enforced ignorance" referred to is exactly that - ignorance enforced by the corporate media and their masters, the BCE.

Maybe in the "red states" it's even worse? You just admitted you didn't know anything about the "SARSStock" concert in Toronto, even though it featured three of the biggest bands in rock n roll history. Granted, I don't expect the CBC to be carried on Oklahoma cable systems as it is in a "border state" like Washington, but if you honestly have no other source of info besides FAUX and the other corporate whores, then that is indeed ignorance of what is going on in the world.

Ignorance does not neccessarily equal stupidity though, and that's typical NewsHax spin to imply that is the case.

Junior is stupid.
Busheep are ignorant. Some willfully, and some through lack of information. But there is a difference.

[tobinentinc]

Michael Moore is the most extreme political person I've ever heard of. The man is too liberal for the Democratic party. He voted for nader in the last election. He's a dumbass. If he thinks that voting for a 3rd party canidate in the next election will help him get bush out of office, he's wrong.

[FORD]

Originally posted by tobinentinc
Michael Moore is the most extreme political person I've ever heard of. The man is too liberal for the Democratic party. He voted for nader in the last election.

Well, he may very well be too liberal for the current neocon controlled Democratic party leadership, but then so am I. So is Dennis Kucinich. So is Howard Dean - according to them - even though Dean was a fiscal conservative, pro business, pro gun governor.

But then Michael Moore is not a registered Democrat. I believe he's a Green actually. Personally I wouldn't care if he were a registered Republican asx long as he continues to oppose the fraudulent corruption destroying this country, which is the common thread in all of his films.

As for his being "the most extreme political person" that you ever heard of, that's really not a very honest statement. I'm assuming you have heard of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Anndrew Coulter, just to name a few extremists from your team. And they get airtime daily from the corporate media. Michael Moore only does when he's got a movie coming out.


He's a dumbass. If he thinks that voting for a 3rd party canidate in the next election will help him get bush out of office, he's wrong.

I don't believe that's his position this time. It certainly isn't implied anywhere in the movie. Though, like myself, I doubt you'll see Moore actively supporting Kerry anytime soon either.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Well, he may very well be too liberal for the current neocon controlled Democratic party leadership, but then so am I. So is Dennis Kucinich. So is Howard Dean - according to them - even though Dean was a fiscal conservative, pro business, pro gun governor.

And being that liberal will keep you right where you are.. Nowhere...

As for his being "the most extreme political person" that you ever heard of, that's really not a very honest statement. I'm assuming you have heard of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Anndrew Coulter, just to name a few extremists from your team. And they get airtime daily from the corporate media. Michael Moore only does when he's got a movie coming out.

None of the above have ever referred to Americans as stupid...

:rolleyes:


I don't believe that's his position this time. It certainly isn't implied anywhere in the movie. Though, like myself, I doubt you'll see Moore actively supporting Kerry anytime soon either.

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
None of the above have ever referred to Americans as stupid...


No, not as "stupid". Traitors, enemies, terrorist sympathizers, haters of America, but never "stupid"

[pete]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Interesting pete... I've lived overseas (in Europe). And I've stayed for extended periods of time in many many foreign countries. I wonder if the good Mr. Moore has ever lived amongst the people he holds in such high regard. I wonder if you have.

I mean, you should at least have the proper perspective before making such a sweeping generalization about your fellow Americans, no?


I don't think when he made those statements he was distancin him self from Americans.

The second statement you posted he referred to Americans as WE.

I also spend much time "abroad" I don't want to get into my impressions.

the statement was a generalisation, not a sweeping hatred of the American Populice.

I think it has to do with the way inormations is dealt with by the powers that be here in this great land of OURS.

In fact, I'm sure of it.

[pete]

Originally posted by FORD
You know damn well that the "enforced ignorance" referred to is exactly that - ignorance enforced by the corporate media and their masters, the BCE.


That's all

[pete]

Originally posted by tobinentinc
Michael Moore is the most extreme political person I've ever heard of. The man is too liberal for the Democratic party. He voted for nader in the last election. He's a dumbass. If he thinks that voting for a 3rd party canidate in the next election will help him get bush out of office, he's wrong.

He's an artist. He's not a politician or incahoots whith any PARTY.

He's not perfect but his heart is in the right place.

He speaks his mind and should be allowed to do so.
Politicians on the other hand.

If his work starts dialogues, raises questions, contains "some" tuth.

good for him

[BITEYOASS]

I'll say it before, I'll say it again: FUCK THAT FAT FAGGOT FUCK FACE FROM FLINT!!!!! :d

[freak]

Originally posted by tobinentinc
Michael Moore is the most extreme political person I've ever heard of.

He is a charlatan.

He's about as sincere in his beliefs as Geraldo and Jerry.

He is also making a lot of money off of guilible people who, apparently, are not in short supply these days.

[Diver Down NJ]

''They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet," Moore told Britain's Mirror newspaper recently, referring to his fellow citizens as a whole.


Well, his movie did manage to get the #1 spot so I suppose he's on to something...

[Big Troubles]

;)

[DaveIsKing]

He's a pussssssy. C'mon...fuckers.

[flappo]

at last something i can agree on

[Phil theStalker]

Originally posted by flappo
at last something i can agree on
flappo,

..now dat u r heer ther is a thred her biting at@the cock to b spmm'd:D

..shhhhhhh...

..i'ts calld: new novel feature character discussing how to choke out bush:D

..shhhhhhhh...

..chop and paste the "BEN AND JAY" dialog post i writ, spmmo it at@raycat's, hehe..

..see wot happuns:D

flappo, aff yoo wer in bed and yer kids cam in and cawght yoo using under aged hookers fer sex wot wood yoo tell them?

..preetend yoo hav kids, flappo, jist lik we all preten Joe has a mind..

..bwhaha:D




..bwhaha:D





=h=




..bwhaha:D


:smilieci:

[Jano]

I think that Moore is just a business man,he finded an easy way to make a lots of money!I'll never go to see one of is movie.

[davidbmc]

If his work starts dialogues, raises questions, contains "some" tuth.

good for him
-------
uhhh.didn't hitler do allthose things too?

[FORD]

Yeah, let's compare Michael Moore to Hitler now. Geezus.... :rolleyes:

Why don't I compare you to Tim Mcveigh while we're at it.

One's just as logical as another.

[Big Train]

Oh but we can compare Bush to Hilter, Stalin..the BCE to the Third Reich, the one world domination theory....

Seriously, Ford, on this one, shut the fuck up.

[frenchie]

are yu talking about gary moore,the guitarist? hihihi!

[wraytw]

Originally posted by Big Train


Seriously, Ford, on this one, shut the fuck up.

Amen.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Big Train
Oh but we can compare Bush to Hilter, Stalin..the BCE to the Third Reich, the one world domination theory....




Yes we can, for three reasons.

1) the Bush Criminal Empire was founded on returns from their "investments" in the Third Reich.

2) The
PNAC Agenda (http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf) spells out in detail the neocons plans for global fascism, just as Mein Kampf spelled out Hitler's plans. Yet in both cases, when the plans began to be enacted just as they said it would be, many people STILL remained in denial. In Germany's case, they didn't wake up until the damage was done. It isn't quite as bad here. Yet.....

3) Hitler blew up the Reichstag building and blamed it on the German Communist Party, his politcal rivals for control of Germany. At first, the people bought it, and were fearful that the Communists might attack them. So they didn't object too much when Hitler passed "emergency acts" which suspended their civil liberties in the name of "securing the homeland"

Any of that sound familiar?

Hell yes comparisons to Hitler are warranted. When Michael Moore does anything like that, let me know.

[freak]

Originally posted by FORD
Yes we can, for three reasons.

1) the Bush Criminal Empire was founded on returns from their "investments" in the Third Reich.

2) The
PNAC Agenda (http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf) spells out in detail the neocons plans for global fascism, just as Mein Kampf spelled out Hitler's plans. Yet in both cases, when the plans began to be enacted just as they said it would be, many people STILL remained in denial. In Germany's case, they didn't wake up until the damage was done. It isn't quite as bad here. Yet.....

3) Hitler blew up the Reichstag building and blamed it on the German Communist Party, his politcal rivals for control of Germany. At first, the people bought it, and were fearful that the Communists might attack them. So they didn't object too much when Hitler passed "emergency acts" which suspended their civil liberties in the name of "securing the homeland"

Any of that sound familiar?

Hell yes comparisons to Hitler are warranted. When Michael Moore does anything like that, let me know.

You are one of the silliest SOBs I have ever encountered Ford.

[Big Train]

Ford,

When you can prove to any of us beyond the shadow of a doubt anything that your are saying, then I'll say your right to throw stones. Until then, seriously, seriously, shut the fuck up.

[fanofdave]

i saw michael moore once in Seattle. he was
standing outside a mcdonald's drive thru window
begging for more french fries and big macs to
go with his diet soda. that fat fucking pig.

[Angel]

Michael Moore knows more about how the rest of the world views you than anyone else, IMO.

I have ALWAYS been a fan, and always will be! (Mind you, his values are very similar to Canuck-based system.)

[John Ashcroft]

And just what would you base that statement on darling?

[Big Train]

Thats fantastic, cant wait till he is your problem, calling your country "Stupid" and generally lying about Canada and the evils of it.

[Angel]

Won't see it happen. Moore is a huge fan of Canadian politics, and is admired by many up here. Recently, a group wanted to have him charged under some law regarding a non-citizen involving themselves in our elections. A mayor in Ontario stated he would make him an honorary citizen so that he couldn't be charged.

He speaks very openly of his admiration of Canada, and probably knows more about our politics than a lot of Canadians.

How do I know this JA? I ALWAYS pay attention when Mike Moore is up here, I have ever since he made the movie "Canadian Bacon".

Big Train, you don't get it, do you? He ADMIRES this country, but he has said we would be stupid to vote Stephen Harper in, as many of his campaign promises were based more on the American system and values, so yes, he has called some of our citizens stupid. Big fucking deal, they are!

Now I'm going to go have a really stiff drink to recover from the shock of JA calling me darling instead of bitch. ;)

[Ally_Kat]

so then why doesn't he just become Canadian? It's apparently he hates this country so much, so why not become a citizen of the country he admires/loves?

No hidden jab or anything. Serious question.

[Angel]

Ally - I've wondered that myself many times. It's a very valid question. He probably doesn't want to have to pay our tax rates! ;)

[Big Train]

I think I do get it and that you are missing my point. I'm saying the very SECOND he becomes a Canadien citizen, you will start to get the shit that we get. Let's not forget this man considers himself a proud american and an admirer of the Constitution. Someday he will move to canada and release a film about the country called Celsius 62 or something equally ridicoulous, claiming canadiens are mere pawns on the world stage etc...

then you will know how WE feel.

[Angel]

Sorry, I disagree. Also, and don't shoot me for this. There is truth behind what he says, you just need to weed through the BS to find it.

What he is saying about "stupid Americans" is a sentiment that is shared in a lot of places around the world, and I imagine that with Satan's son running your country, that sentiment is growing by the day.

Cheers!

[Big Train]

Thats great angel. I just hope you never run into the day where you need help, militarily or economically from us "Stupid Americans". Have a nice life!!!!!!

[Ally_Kat]

we're suppose to be tolerant and accept the rest of the world just as they are, but they can turn around and call us stupid. Well, that's just great.

Gotta love the world we live in.

[Angel]

Let me explain there Train, when a person uses quotation marks, it is to indicate that it is a statement made by someone else, ie: "stupid Americans". I was QUOTING. Nowhere in my post did I personally say it. I was simply stating that many non-Americans have that sentiment, and that it is growing.

Now, where the hell is the problem with that, eh? Or do you not care how the rest of the world perceives you and your people?

Ally, perhaps one of the reasons they call you "stupid", which, by the way is NOT my word of choice. I would choose "ignorant", in the true sense of the word, is that it so often seems like the Americans feel that their way is the only way.

(Getting DejaVu of the old War Zone at DDLR with me in here today? ;) )

[Big Train]

Angel,

We are a prideful people, we came from a band of people that said fuck you to another country and we earned all that we now enjoy. Is our way the best way? not always. However, it is sickening to have one of our own call us stupid, lazy, ignorant while personally enjoying everything those same people have to offer him and have suffered to create. If a bunch of snotty academics (who are already convinced they are better than others) agree to add to it, it makes it worse.

I can understand where the rest of the world might have an issue with us at times. However, it does bother me when citizens of another country come off on some moral superiority trip about their land because someone who enjoys our freedom of speech criticizes us.

For the record, I don't care what others in the world think of us, as I am SURE they feel. I really don't think the average chinese or russian is staying up at night wondering what americans think of them. Let's stick with the standard we have, it works for everyone.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Big Train
Angel,

We are a prideful people, we came from a band of people that said fuck you to another country and we earned all that we now enjoy. Is our way the best way? not always. However, it is sickening to have one of our own call us stupid, lazy, ignorant while personally enjoying everything those same people have to offer him and have suffered to create. If a bunch of snotty academics (who are already convinced they are better than others) agree to add to it, it makes it worse.

I can understand where the rest of the world might have an issue with us at times. However, it does bother me when citizens of another country come off on some moral superiority trip about their land because someone who enjoys our freedom of speech criticizes us.

For the record, I don't care what others in the world think of us, as I am SURE they feel. I really don't think the average chinese or russian is staying up at night wondering what americans think of them. Let's stick with the standard we have, it works for everyone.

Huh??? I said his values are very similar to Canadians. Where's the fucking moral superiority there? Big Train, I think it's time to chill out, let the anger go before you read the posts so that you don't misconstrue what's being said.

Again, CHEERS! ;)

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Americans currently flocking to see Michael Moore's movie "Farenheit 9/11" might be surprised to learn how little respect the Democratic Party's leading propaganda-meister has for them.

''They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet," Moore told Britain's Mirror newspaper recently, referring to his fellow citizens as a whole.

And that's not all Moore had to say about his brother Yanks across the pond. ''We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing.''
Turns out, when the Democratic Party's all-but-official filmmaker is speaking at home, he has nice things to say about at least some of his fellow citizens. But according to New York Times columnist David Brooks, when Moore travels abroad it's not just the Bush administration he trashes - but the American people en-masse.

Here's a few more bon mots from the Kerry campaign's leading celluloid supporter, as cited by Mr. Brooks on Saturday:

''That's why we're smiling all the time,'' Moore told a rapturous throng in Munich. ''You can see us coming down the street. You know, 'Hey! Hi! How's it going?' We've got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren't loaded down.''

To a crowd in Cambridge, Moore intoned: ''You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.''

Here's Moore's reaction to the 9/11 attacks, offered while the rubble at Ground Zero was still smoldering: ''We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants.''

As for the terrorists currently killing American soldiers in Iraq, Moore compares them to Revolutionary war heroes who fought off British oppression:

''The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.''

Link: here, suckers (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/26/103545.shtml)

We are not THAT big of suckers JA... ...that NewsHax website is a biased lowbudget GOP sheep site...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by FORD


3) Hitler blew up the Reichstag building and blamed it on the German Communist Party, his politcal rivals for control of Germany. At first, the people bought it, and were fearful that the Communists might attack them. So they didn't object too much when Hitler passed "emergency acts" which suspended their civil liberties in the name of "securing the homeland"

Any of that sound familiar?



Yep, very familiar. Like when the BCE had the Anthrax letters sent out, effectively shutting down Congress, and then used that opportunity to ram his self-serving political acts thru.

Remember this from the Nazi war trials:

"Whether it is a democracy, a dictatorship, or a parliament... the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Herman Goerring

[Big Train]

calling people stupid is to put yourself above them. If you (or some, if that makes you feel better) foriegn citizens feel that way, that is a superiority trip.

He is an american with canadien values? Then again, why is he in America?

I will not let go of the anger. Moore pisses me off to no end with his lies and distortions, his pandering to foreign countries, his complete disregard for those in the armed services and his complete and utter contempt for the average american. So fuck him, but it is an in house american problem.

I thank you for your international opinion but I do not agree.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Angel,

We are a prideful people, we came from a band of people that said fuck you to another country and we earned all that we now enjoy.

Right, and you of all people should know then that it is time for another revolt! A Republican Senator from Texas, who didn't sign the evil "Patriot Act" stated that our forefathers, facing the same oppression we are facing today, would have already begun another revolution...

[Big Train]

Yea, I know evil when I see it. Please tell me exactly and in detail, what is evil about the Patriot Act. Where is the oppression. I ask because both "evil" and "oppression" are strong words, which should be used in appropriate circumstances.

I don't feel the need to revolt. I think people using the histrionics need to sit down and really think things through before going down these paths. In the last five years, there has been so many aging boomers throwing out wild accusations, hysteria and calls for revolt and protest, that having an educated, rationale conversation about politics almost impossible.

Let's discuss the issues and turn the histrionics down 4-5 notches.

[John Ashcroft]

Angel darling, I was specifically asking about this statement.


Originally posted by Angel
Michael Moore knows more about how the rest of the world views you than anyone else, IMO.

I'm still wondering what you base that on.

The rest of your posts kind of veer away from this generalization, and into Moore's appreciation of Canada... Which is fine... But I hardly consider knowing one country outside your own as "knowing the rest of the world's views".

So again, what do you base this generalization on?

[Angel]

Because he keeps his eyes and ears open. The US is not held in the highest regard by many nations. Americans are seen as boorish, rude and arrogant.

Many Americans now wear a maple leaf when travelling in Europe, not realizing that the shopkeepers still know they're Americans by their attitude.

JA, if you ask the average Joe citizen questions about countries other than the US, they won't know much, if anything at all. I don't know if it's through choice that people don't educate themselves regarding issues not in your country, or if it is the education system in general. I find that those of you who are well-travelled and take the time to actually learn a thing or two about the countries you are visiting are more open-minded and have a less prejudiced view of things.

Numerous times on these boards, it has been implied that if you're not an American, your view is irrelivant, and that your opinions will not be listened to unless they are pro-American. Therefore, many close their ears to the international communities views.

again, IMO , Mike Moore is one of those who DON'T close their ears to others' opinions. I have found that International entertainers are another group of US citizens who have a better idea of how your country is viewed by others.

I do, however, feel that if you are that unhappy in your own country, then you should move to the one that you like better. That is true of Michael Moore, and I know a few Canucks that I'd sure like to send your way. Don't worry JA, they're all ones that are Bush admirers, I wouldn't send you any of those crazy "liberals" we have up here! ;)

Wow, you called me darling two days in a row... my pacemaker's going to be working overtime! :bottle:

[Satan]

Originally posted by Big Train


I will not let go of the anger. Bush pisses me off to no end with his lies and distortions, his pandering to foreign countries,(i.e.Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Pakistan) his complete disregard for those in the armed services and his complete and utter contempt for the average american. So fuck him...

[Satan]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Right, and you of all people should know then that it is time for another revolt! A Republican Senator from Texas, who didn't sign the evil "Patriot Act" stated that our forefathers, facing the same oppression we are facing today, would have already begun another revolution...

Ron Paul?

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Yea, I know evil when I see it. Please tell me exactly and in detail, what is evil about the Patriot Act. Where is the oppression. I ask because both "evil" and "oppression" are strong words, which should be used in appropriate circumstances.

I don't feel the need to revolt. I think people using the histrionics need to sit down and really think things through before going down these paths. In the last five years, there has been so many aging boomers throwing out wild accusations, hysteria and calls for revolt and protest, that having an educated, rationale conversation about politics almost impossible.

Let's discuss the issues and turn the histrionics down 4-5 notches.

Well, I guess my first question is: Have you ever READ the Patriot Act? Specifically the parts where the FBI can now enter your home, without you even being there, and without a search warrant, take whatever they may want, leave, and never even have to let you know that they were there?
Can you say: Un con stit u tion al??

How about they part where they can herd us all into stadiums, just like cattle, (or better yet 'sheep') under the guise of 'protecting' us??

It doesn't sound like you've even begun to read the act, so stop talking to me about being educated, O.K.?

I'll take my histrionics over your ebonics anyday...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Satan
Ron Paul?

Thank you. You are correct sir! :killer:

[Big Train]

Man satan you got me good!!! I have GOT to stop posting at 2AM. Take that statement as it was originally intended, put the word Moore in instead of Bush. And no, that was no freudian slip for all who may be wondering...

[Satan]

Ron Paul's actually a Congressman, not a Senator. And though he ran (and won) on a Republican ticket, his viewpoints are actually more Libertarian. But the man has done one HELL of a job in calling out the PNAC agenda on the floor of the House, and for that he definitely has the Devil's respect.

Here's a column that Congressman Paul published on his own website


Freedom vs. Security: A False Choice

In recent days administration officials have warned the nation about possible terrorist attacks, subjecting us once again to color-coded threat charts and puzzling admonitions to go about our lives as usual. The message is clear: grave danger surrounds us, but ordinary citizens should do nothing and trust the government take care of it.

But the obvious lesson of September 11th is that government cannot protect us. Even with trillions of tax dollars spent on “defense,” hijacked planes flew unchallenged over our skies and attacked national symbols of business and government. Yet now we’re told to put even more faith into the same bureaucracies that failed us so miserably in the past? Self-reliance and self-defense are American virtues; trembling reliance on the illusion of government-provided security is not.

It's easy for elected officials in Washington to tell Americans that government will do whatever it takes to defeat terrorism, but it’s your freedom and your tax dollars at stake- not theirs. The history of the 20th century demonstrates that the Constitution is violated most egregiously during times of crisis. Many of our worst unconstitutional agencies and programs began during the two world wars and the Depression, when the public was anxious and willing to view government as a savior and protector. Ironically, the Constitution itself was conceived in a time of great crisis. The founders intended to place inviolable restrictions on what the federal government could do even in times of great distress. America must guard against current calls for government to violate the Constitution- meaning break the law- in the name of law enforcement.

The misnamed Patriot Act, presented to the public as an anti-terrorism measure, actually focuses on American citizens rather than foreign terrorists. For example, the definition of "terrorism" for federal criminal purposes has been greatly expanded; future administrations may consider you a terrorist if you belong to a pro-gun group, a citizen militia, or a pro-life organization. Legitimate protest against the government could place you (and tens of thousands of other Americans) under federal surveillance. Similarly, your internet use can be monitored without your knowledge, and your internet provider can be forced to hand over user information to law enforcement without a warrant or subpoena.

The biggest problem with these new law enforcement powers is that they bear little relationship to fighting terrorism. Surveillance powers are greatly expanded, while checks and balances on government are greatly reduced. Most of the provisions have been sought after by domestic law enforcement agencies for years, not to fight terrorism, but rather to increase their police power over the American people. The federal government has made no showing that it failed to detect or prevent the September 11th attacks because of the civil liberties that will be compromised by this new legislation.

America was founded by men who understood that the threat of domestic tyranny is as great as any threat from abroad. If we want to be worthy of their legacy, we must resist the rush toward ever-increasing state control of our society. Otherwise, our own government will become a greater threat to our freedoms than any foreign terrorist.
link (http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst053104.htm)

[Keeyth]

Are we listening Big Train? JA?

Satan has spoken! Hear, hear!!

[ODShowtime]

Is is really that hard to believe that most American's are stupid? All I need to do is drive down the street to know that most of us are complete fucking morons. That's no big mystery or proclamation or anything.

How else can you explain Spammy's career?

[Big Train]

Keeyth,

Bitch please....


I have read the Patriot Act. The rules of the game have changed. The terrorists are a mix of American citizens and foriegn nationals. You have to remove some of the barriers to find where they hide. You have to. If not, you are ignorant about how it all works.

Should I just take Ron Paul's advice, arm my house and sit with a shotgun everyday, because "Americans are self-reliant against terrorism?"

Are mistakes probably gonna happen, people get hassled who shouldn't and so forth? Absolutely. But I would rather have offended and outraged ALIVE americans than offended and outraged families of dead relatives anyday.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Keeyth,

Bitch please....


I have read the Patriot Act. The rules of the game have changed. The real terrorists are IN the White House, and I'm stupid enough to believe that we are under attack because the same asshole who screwed this counrty out of a fair election in 2000 told me we are.
Also, I am already a sheep because I support Bush, so being herded into stadiums or wherever doesn't bother me to much.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go get sheared. Baa-ah-ah-ah...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Keeyth


Now who's the Bitch, Bitch??? :D

[John Ashcroft]

Uh, according to the ACLU (not exactly a conservative organization, mind you) there have been exactly 0 abuses with the Patriot Act.

I've posted a bit on this before in another thread.

Now, Angel, I still don't buy your premise at all. I've been all over the world, and lived in Europe. Americans are considered "arrogant" in many European countries, but only because of the rampant jealousy that exists between Europe and America (and of course, Canadians are not exempt). It's really not that hard to get at the root of the problem either. All you have to do is ask a few questions, and it all comes out. I've talked this very issue with Germans, Dutch, Begiums, French, Brits, Canuks, Danes, Norwegiens, Italians, Greeks, Turks, Saudis, Iranians and even Chinese (albeit in New York, not China). And I'm still probably missing a few in there... Oh yeah, I am, Panamanians, Mexicans, Portugese, and Spainiards as well. (still may be missing a few).

I've gotten to know quite a few people from each of these countries personally (mainly in their own countries, except the Chinese fellow I've gotten to know, and my Iranian room mate from College (exchange student)) . And you know what? They all seem to be annoyed not that we're "arrogant", but that the average American simply doesn't give a shit about what they have to say about anything. If you dig a bit deeper, and cut through some hefty misconceptions (like yours), you realize that most of them still admire the American spirit. Their politicians and intellectuals don't really like us because we don't buy that "enlightened socialism" bullshit. But still, the average European I've gotten to know really doesn't share Michael Moore's view of America.

Now, where have you been?

[Angel]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Now, where have you been?

DDLR. Thread's here get too big for me, and I don't get my work done! Plus, I have a tendency to get into scraps with a certain member, and I got sick of it.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Uh, according to the ACLU (not exactly a conservative organization, mind you) there have been exactly 0 abuses with the Patriot Act.



You're missing the point. The point is they have coerced you into giving up those rights, and allowed them to have these new laws in place for when they are ready to rape the Constitution. 0 abuses? That makes itO.K. for them to still be able to abuse in the future??? WAKE UP!!

[ODShowtime]

How would anyone know about Patriot Act abuses when the whole thing is sheathed in secrecy? That's the whole point.
Because we are American and we are supposed to know better than to trust the government.

[Big Train]

Keeyth

You still are and always will be the bitch. Nice way to edit my commentary. Liberals always have a way of bending statements and truths their way. Nice job with the demonstration above....

[Viking]

There's a reason why Pig Dung needs bodyguards. I wouldn't even argue with that repulsive lump of fetid blubber. I'd just eviscerate him. There are just some people that simply don't deserve to breathe our air and consume resources.

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Because we are American and we are supposed to know better than to trust the government.

Hey, you and I actually agree here! Why in the hell would anyone trust the government to specify what's best for them? So why do dems keep calling for government intervention for every single real or imaginary social ailment???

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
How would anyone know about Patriot Act abuses when the whole thing is sheathed in secrecy? That's the whole point.
Because we are American and we are supposed to know better than to trust the government.

Section 215 prohibits tattling on the feds even if there's abuse.

So, just because there aren't any reported abuses doesn't make it so.

And isn't destroying the constitution abuse enough?

[Big Train]

Not that any of you of the liberal persuasion are going to believe this argument, I will try anyway.

Section 215 is logical if you are actually talking about terrorists. Would you want it advertised to the suspect that we are on to them? Doesn't seem to logical to me and could threaten national security if a terrorist found out, closed up shop or rerouted things.

Secondly, if someones privacy was invaded and nothing was found, they would move on. What purpose does it serve to focus effort on a person known to have no connections?

I know the big scare is about abuses. If and when those abuses happen (and as of now, there have been none) we will deal with it.

[Pink Spider]

You miss the point. There is NO WAY for the general public to find out about such abuses. It's called a gag order for a reason.

Of course a police state would be effective, where they can spy on everyone with a touch of a button. I've read 1984. No thanks.

[pete]

Originally posted by davidbmc
If his work starts dialogues, raises questions, contains "some" tuth.

good for him
-------
uhhh.didn't hitler do allthose things too?

What's your point.

We have laws and liberties.

Liberty:Freedom of speech is one

Law:Murder is illeagal.

Words are just that. Words.

ouch.... that hurt

[pete]

Originally posted by Big Train
Oh but we can compare Bush to Hilter, Stalin..the BCE to the Third Reich, the one world domination theory....


uh, yeah!

They all had the same job.

Michael Moore's a film-maker.

[pete]

Originally posted by Big Train
Thats fantastic, cant wait till he is your problem, calling your country "Stupid" and generally lying about Canada and the evils of it.

I do it all the time.

[Big Train]

Joseph Goebbels was a filmmaker as well...should I compare them because they had the same job?

[Big Train]

Posted by Pink:

You miss the point. There is NO WAY for the general public to find out about such abuses. It's called a gag order for a reason.

Of course a police state would be effective, where they can spy on everyone with a touch of a button. I've read 1984. No thanks.

I understand your point, I am just offering the other side. I don't expect you to go for it, I'm just trying to say that is what they were shooting for.

It is an interesting problem. If we were to remove the Patriot Act, what would you propose in it's place to tackle the problem?

And please Ford, can you please refrain from BCE/OBL related rants...

[Pink Spider]

Illegal immigration control would help. The borders are virtually unguarded. Of course both factions of the party have backers that love people that will work for less than minimum wage. So, don't look for anything to happen.

Terrorists will just figure out this whole Patriot Act surveillance crap too and use carrier pigeons or something low tech. Its pointless.

[Igosplut]

Originally posted by pete


Michael Moore's a film-maker.

By the size of his gut, I'd say he's a turd-maker....

And probably a pretty big on at that.......

[pete]

Originally posted by Big Train
Joseph Goebbels was a filmmaker as well...should I compare them because they had the same job?

Hitler and stalin were national leaders.

Michael Moore is a film maker.

You're asking questions instead of addressing the dialogue.

[pete]

Originally posted by Igosplut
By the size of his gut, I'd say he's a turd-maker....

And probably a pretty big on at that.......

Well all my fellow BRILLIANT Americans are lining his pockets.

[Big Train]

Posted by Pete:

Hitler and stalin were national leaders.

Michael Moore is a film maker.

You're asking questions instead of addressing the dialogue.

I'm merely following your line of logic. They all have the same job, yet you can draw comparisons only if they are national leaders? Both Goebbels and Moore make films which can be considered propaganda, so why can't I follow your logic and compare them?

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by pete
Well all my fellow BRILLIANT Americans are lining his pockets.

Certainly not all Americans are lining his pockets.

In fact, the total attendance to Fahrenheit 911 so far is quite a bit less than the listening audience of Rush Limbaugh on one day.

So are we to deduct that Rush speaks for all Americans?

[pete]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Certainly not all Americans are lining his pockets.

In fact, the total attendance to Fahrenheit 911 so far is quite a bit less than the listening audience of Rush Limbaugh on one day.

So are we to deduct that Rush speaks for all Americans?


Now Rush would be a reasonable comparison.

And once again Michael has utilised his pontification/arrognace (all artists and politicians have it) in such a way that the american people, and people worldwide, have financed/gave relevance to his continuation.

Rush is very intelligent. Opium expands the mind (before it destroys the body).

While Rush is supporting a party/credo. Moore is not bound by any party/credo. He calls it like he sees it.

I'm not saying he's great. Oh no!

(sorry to get off subject)
Jello Biafra. That's greatness!!!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BITEYOASS
I'll say it before, I'll say it again: FUCK THAT FAT FAGGOT FUCK FACE FROM FLINT!!!!! :d

I'm Karl Rove........and I approved this message

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BITEYOASS
I'll say it before, I'll say it again: FUCK THAT FAT FAGGOT FUCK FACE FROM FLINT!!!!! :d

Another great debate brought to you by the John Ashcroft School of Discourse.

Yes, Mike's fat

Yes, Mike's from Flint

He's also one of MANY holding a microscope up to that anthill of an administration we have.

And the little RepublicANTS are feeling the heat.

Karen Hughes couldn't wait to bolt

Tenet took off like an Oklahoma prom dress in time to duck the scathing 9/11 critique of his "slam dunk" intel

Calls for rummy's resignation FROM BOTH SIDES following his Major League Fuck Up of the Abu Grahib COVERUP

Powell? Wants out
Rice? Made to look like the parrot she is
Cheney? Nearly dumped by the ticket

So much for Richard Perle's contention that Iraq's rebuilding would pay for itself

So much for Cheney's "we'll be greeted as liberators in the streets"

Remember the tough talking shrub daring them to "bring it on"??

Well they brought it on alright


So you go ahead and repeat ad nauseum your FUCK MIKE MOORE FROM FLINT crap all you want.

We'll see you at the polls in November

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Certainly not all Americans are lining his pockets.

In fact, the total attendance to Fahrenheit 911 so far is quite a bit less than the listening audience of Rush Limbaugh on one day.

So are we to deduct that Rush speaks for all Americans?

No John.

Just as your president evidently speaks to about 40-43% of all Americans

A sitting president

A "war" president

A president that is "turning the corner and won't turn back" on the lagest loss of jobs since Hoover

A president that HAD the support and sympathy of the world post 9/11

A president with a campaign war chest twice his opponent

AND HE'S NOT LEADING IN THE POLLS OUTSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR 3MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

Considering how low you think of the dems, what is your theory as to why your president is doing so poorly in the face of lame competition and his record to stand on?

hmmmm


maybe he's a dolt

an arrogant, spoiled dolt

What company was he ever involved with that was NOT worse off after he left than when it was handed to him on a platter?

name one

oil - failed
baseball - failed

presidency - FAILED

[pete]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
No John.

Just as your president evidently speaks to about 40-43% of all Americans

A sitting president

A "war" president

A president that is "turning the corner and won't turn back" on the lagest loss of jobs since Hoover

A president that HAD the support and sympathy of the world post 9/11

A president with a campaign war chest twice his opponent

AND HE'S NOT LEADING IN THE POLLS OUTSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR 3MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

Considering how low you think of the dems, what is your theory as to why your president is doing so poorly in the face of lame competition and his record to stand on?

hmmmm


maybe he's a dolt

an arrogant, spoiled dolt

What company was he ever involved with that was NOT worse off after he left than when it was handed to him on a platter?

name one

oil - failed
baseball - failed

presidency - FAILED

Can I shake your hand?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by pete


Rush is very intelligent. Opium expands the mind (before it destroys the body).



Speaking of hypocrites........

remember not so long ago, when Rush would take to the airwaves and call for MANDATORY JAIL TIME FOR ALL DRUG USERS, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES?

Not just the peddlers

The USERS

I fully expect Rush to turn himself in to Allenwood for 3-5 years any day now

[pete]

Yeah, The republican credo

Throw the ill in jail. At least we can turn a profit.

Rehabilitation!?!?!? Yeah right.

Maybe we can create a disease to get rid of all brown rhythmic individuals and sissy-boys!?!?!?!?

That may back-fire.

Who knows.

[Big Train]

Let it all out boys, you'll feel better...

I'm still waiting to hear what Kerry will do in Iraq, even though he IS CURRENTLY a US Senator and should be speaking up on that alone (and why he voted for the war in the first place). He's got nothing.

His war record is a joke. He's got nothing.

His plan for the economy has not substance and is full of nostalgia, as is people can just vote back 1999.

A lot of people are questioning and there are a lot of lunatics out there raving, which is why the country is pretty undecided at this point. The bottom line is when it comes down to it, Dubya is walking with the gold in November. End of story.

[pete]

Originally posted by Big Train
Let it all out boys, you'll feel better...



I feel fine.

I don't have to live and lie within the confines that American society dictates to maintain my career/way of life.

I'm an educator! A teacher! And a Doctor in my field (as of last week).

I feel bad for you.

Seriously.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by pete
I feel fine.

I don't have to live and lie within the confines that American society dictates to maintain my career/way of life.

I'm an educator! A teacher! And a Doctor in my field (as of last week).

I feel bad for you.

Seriously.

Good for you pete. well done and congrats

Imagine 43 Nobel Prize winners coming out for Dubya?

Team Rove wanted Dean in the worst way. Wait until the debates. These busheep will swcatter like rats



btw
do we have to call you Dr. Pete now?

[Big Train]

Posted by Pete:
I feel fine.

I don't have to live and lie within the confines that American society dictates to maintain my career/way of life.

I'm an educator! A teacher! And a Doctor in my field (as of last week).

I feel bad for you.

Seriously.


Thanks Pete, I really need your pity. I can tell you have your Doctorate, you have the arrogance of a Prof. down pat. Seriously....

Who cares how you live your life? Be free, Americans fought for that right.

I think Dubya will suprise you in the debates. He may stumble, but he at least will be able to respond, unlike Kerry.

I only have a BM and an MBA though, what do I know?

[John Ashcroft]

Heh heh heh... Look at all the invective coming out of the "open minded" liberals! Awesome!

Guys, (and Dr. Pete), the better question would be "Why isn't Bush down by 10 points by now?" I mean, you libs have been shooting your collective wad for months, and yet Dubya's numbers remain firm (and ahead of Kerry's). In fact, support for the war in Iraq actually increased following Michael Moore's movie. You've got hollywood, rock stars, billionaires, the press, France, etc. all warning us peasants of just how dangerous the current President is to everyone and everything. And yet he remains ahead of Kerry. Interesting. What gives?

Now, can I ask again? Why, if you plan on living your life free and in control of your own destiny, do you support liberals who continously call for government intervention for all social issues? Liberals who want to take more money out your pockets "for the common good"? If you're making it regardless of the government, why call for government? It's truly confusing. It's absolutely fantastic that you're making a living without government meddling. It's how this country's supposed to work. It's why America advances while the rest of the world stagnates. Again, it's what you're supposed to do. Why support people who'd fuck it up?

Oh, and just one more thing... All this freedom is secured by the United States Armed Forces. Period. Do you find yourselves supporting them?

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I mean, you libs have been shooting your collective wad for months, and yet Dubya's numbers remain firm (and ahead of Kerry's). In fact, support for the war in Iraq actually increased following Michael Moore's movie. You've got hollywood, rock stars, billionaires, the press, France, etc. all warning us peasants of just how dangerous the current President is to everyone and everything. And yet he remains ahead of Kerry. Interesting. What gives?

To get into an argument that I care little about, it depends on what polls you look at. A Fox "News" poll would obviously be pro-Bush and say a CBS poll would be pro-Kerry. Its all about demographics. Nothing more.

Now, can I ask again? Why, if you plan on living your life free and in control of your own destiny, do you support liberals who continously call for government intervention for all social issues? Liberals who want to take more money out your pockets "for the common good"? If you're making it regardless of the government, why call for government? It's truly confusing. It's absolutely fantastic that you're making a living without government meddling. It's how this country's supposed to work. It's why America advances while the rest of the world stagnates. Again, it's what you're supposed to do. Why support people who'd fuck it up?

You mean they should support the gun banning Bush, who wants to have every intelligence agency spying on the American people? is banning gay marriage not a social issue? Is corporate welfare not a social issue? You're paying for it aren't you?

We need public schools, libraries and yes even health care. There is majority public support across the board for all 3. Nothing said will change that. Although, I will agree with the "conservative" side and say that we need to curb unnecessary government waste. Congress is due for a pay cut.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Hey, you and I actually agree here! Why in the hell would anyone trust the government to specify what's best for them? So why do dems keep calling for government intervention for every single real or imaginary social ailment???

Because left to our own devices, most of the money our gov't recieves from us would just be dumped into the human meatgrinder system the Bushies has set up for us, or into the pockets of the execs. And I understand the economics that nets CEOs millions/year, but the fact that their is theory behind it doesn't make it right.

One of the main reasons not to vote for Democrats, which every republican holds dear to their heart, was repeated to me last night by my friend's mom: "If we let the dems in, they'll give all the money to the... " well let's just say to the u'rban community.'

And of course I don't want all my tax dollars dropped on the poorest people just so they can buy a couple more pairs of nike's or what ever else they use to wear their life savings on their person.

But what the fuck?? That's a hell of a lot better than spending it on bombs to blow the hell out of stupid rag-heads halfway around the world so that the people running the country get their cut of the profit margin.

It's so easy to understand. Vote for Bush if you agree that it's alright to wage war for profit for a small oligarchy. Vote for Kerry if you think that humanity should be more than cannon fodder so someone will by bombs off of our leaders and their friends.

seriously, whether or not we throw the poor a couple more bones is not a good enough reason so vote yes on a referendum for wholesale murder and theft.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
No John.

Just as your president evidently speaks to about 40-43% of all Americans

A sitting president

A "war" president

A president that is "turning the corner and won't turn back" on the lagest loss of jobs since Hoover

A president that HAD the support and sympathy of the world post 9/11

A president with a campaign war chest twice his opponent

AND HE'S NOT LEADING IN THE POLLS OUTSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR 3MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

Considering how low you think of the dems, what is your theory as to why your president is doing so poorly in the face of lame competition and his record to stand on?

hmmmm


maybe he's a dolt

an arrogant, spoiled dolt

What company was he ever involved with that was NOT worse off after he left than when it was handed to him on a platter?

name one

oil - failed
baseball - failed

presidency - FAILED

VERY well said. I mostly quoted it just so it's on here twice. I mean,

Ashcroft... you want to vote for a man who's tanked every organization he's worked for? Obviously he only got these jobs because of his family. The least he could do is be competent!! Or at the very minimum he could do is not freakin' commit SEC violations!!!!!!

I mean come on!

[WolfStar999]

In order to succeed, you have to be your own toughest critic. That being said, should we not take a long hard look at ourselves as Americans and just how our country is being run? If this makes me unpatriotic to all the "America: Love or Leave It" jack-offs, then you can put me on the first plane outta here.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Keeyth

You still are and always will be the bitch. Nice way to edit my commentary. Liberals always have a way of bending statements and truths their way. Nice job with the demonstration above....

Nobody called "Big Train" should be calling anyone else a bitch! A train is what I pull on a bitch! :D

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Not that any of you of the liberal persuasion are going to believe this argument, I will try anyway.

Section 215 is logical if you are actually talking about terrorists.

O.K. stop right there. Go check out how broad the term 'terrorist' is in that document. They aren't just talking about Muslims there buddy, they're talking about you and me.
Average Joe American.
Anyone.:mad:

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Another great debate brought to you by the John Ashcroft School of Discourse.

Yes, Mike's fat

Yes, Mike's from Flint

He's also one of MANY holding a microscope up to that anthill of an administration we have.

And the little RepublicANTS are feeling the heat.

Karen Hughes couldn't wait to bolt

Tenet took off like an Oklahoma prom dress in time to duck the scathing 9/11 critique of his "slam dunk" intel

Calls for rummy's resignation FROM BOTH SIDES following his Major League Fuck Up of the Abu Grahib COVERUP

Powell? Wants out
Rice? Made to look like the parrot she is
Cheney? Nearly dumped by the ticket

So much for Richard Perle's contention that Iraq's rebuilding would pay for itself

So much for Cheney's "we'll be greeted as liberators in the streets"

Remember the tough talking shrub daring them to "bring it on"??

Well they brought it on alright


So you go ahead and repeat ad nauseum your FUCK MIKE MOORE FROM FLINT crap all you want.

We'll see you at the polls in November

Well put! Here's a vote for ya! :D

[Big Train]

Nobody called "Big Train" should be calling anyone else a bitch! A train is what I pull on a bitch!

Keep working on those comebacks, I'm sure they will improve...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
No John.

Just as your president evidently speaks to about 40-43% of all Americans

A sitting president

A "war" president

A president that is "turning the corner and won't turn back" on the lagest loss of jobs since Hoover

A president that HAD the support and sympathy of the world post 9/11

A president with a campaign war chest twice his opponent

AND HE'S NOT LEADING IN THE POLLS OUTSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR 3MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

Considering how low you think of the dems, what is your theory as to why your president is doing so poorly in the face of lame competition and his record to stand on?

hmmmm


maybe he's a dolt

an arrogant, spoiled dolt

What company was he ever involved with that was NOT worse off after he left than when it was handed to him on a platter?

name one

oil - failed
baseball - failed

presidency - FAILED

Damn, if I could vote for you twice, I would!:D

[Big Train]

Posted by Keeyth:

O.K. stop right there. Go check out how broad the term 'terrorist' is in that document. They aren't just talking about Muslims there buddy, they're talking about you and me.
Average Joe American.
Anyone.

All legal language is overly broad. I know your afraid of abuses and if and when we get there, it will be dealt with. You can say "how will we know"? If it is an abuse that bad, you will know..

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
Let it all out boys, you'll feel better...

The bottom line is when it comes down to it, Dubya is walking with the gold in November. End of story.

Maybe that's why you're so confused. You just don't get it. This ain't about some fucking olympic GAME, Big Train. There is no Gold. This is about our country, and moreso, the INTEGRITY of our country's future...:rolleyes:

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train

All legal language is overly broad. I know your afraid of abuses and if and when we get there, it will be dealt with. You can say "how will we know"? If it is an abuse that bad, you will know..

I'm sorry but that is pure bullshit. If there is an abuse, it will be something like someone getting locked up in Guantanomo Bay with the other 'terrorists' with no access to legal counsel for an indefinite period, and maybe never... ...just HOW will we know??

I mean c'mon, YOU didn't even know that the election in 2000 was fixed, and stolen! You're STILL in denial about that. Not a very good watchdog on abuses, now are you?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Well put! Here's a vote for ya! :D

Right back at ya, bud

[Big Train]

Maybe that's why you're so confused. You just don't get it. This ain't about some fucking olympic GAME, Big Train. There is no Gold. This is about our country, and moreso, the INTEGRITY of our country's future...


Maybe your just to stupid to understand tongue in cheek humor, you know winners and losers etc....

[Big Train]

Posted by Keeyth:

I'm sorry but that is pure bullshit. If there is an abuse, it will be something like someone getting locked up in Guantanomo Bay with the other 'terrorists' with no access to legal counsel for an indefinite period, and maybe never... ...just HOW will we know??

Um, I think their family would let the American people know...just a hunch.

[Satan]

Originally posted by Big Train

All legal language is overly broad. I know your afraid of abuses and if and when we get there, it will be dealt with. You can say "how will we know"? If it is an abuse that bad, you will know..

Well, everybody "knows" now about gas showers, mass graves and slow baking Jews at 350° farenheit NOW.

But how many people knew about it in 1938??

Knowing about abuses after the fact is worthless. How do you know what is going on at Gitmo?? Didn't some of the torturers at Abu Ghraib transfer there from Gitmo??

Mass graves aren't neccessary when you're surrounded by shark infested waters. Easy disposal system. And I don't believe there's ever been a published list of exactly who's being held down there or what for. Sounds a bit like a concentration camp when you think about it.

[Big Train]

They knew about it. Hell, Michael Moore himself admits to knowing about it and sitting on that infomation. What went on there was a shame, I'm not denying it. To automatically assume all of things being assumed I think is a mistake. 1938 and 2004 are completely different times (i know, I can hear you now...). If an American citizen was just taken by the government, I"M SURE the family of that person would not be silent. Neither would the city and county they live in, neither would the ACLU, neither would the media and so on.

We are talking about a section of an act and running out of the park with it. I know you will never see it my way and I will never see it your way.

[diamond den™]

Originally posted by tobinentinc
Michael Moore is the most extreme political person I've ever heard of. The man is too liberal for the Democratic party. He voted for nader in the last election. He's a dumbass. If he thinks that voting for a 3rd party canidate in the next election will help him get bush out of office, he's wrong.

Michael Moore is a fucking hack.....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by diamond den™
Michael Moore is a fucking hack.....

as opposed to YOU, who has accomplished SO much..............

whatever fucktard

YOU win an oscar, pam d'or, and put out something worth $100 million, then come back in here,

'til then

YOU"RE the hack

[pete]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Good for you pete. well done and congrats

Imagine 43 Nobel Prize winners coming out for Dubya?

Team Rove wanted Dean in the worst way. Wait until the debates. These busheep will swcatter like rats



btw
do we have to call you Dr. Pete now?

Dr Pete - Have stirrups - will travel! :)

God Bless Sally Stuthers

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
Maybe that's why you're so confused. You just don't get it. This ain't about some fucking olympic GAME, Big Train. There is no Gold. This is about our country, and moreso, the INTEGRITY of our country's future...


Maybe your just to stupid to understand tongue in cheek humor, you know winners and losers etc....

Maybe YOU'RE too stupid to find the "quote" button

or to know to from too

Big Train obviously doesn't equal Big Brain

[ELVIS]

LMAO!


:D

[Big Train]

Lounge,

Seriously, add to the discussion or fuck off.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
Lounge,

Seriously, add to the discussion or fuck off.

Hit a nerve, did I?

What discussion

Calling Moore a hack?, or fat?

Or you bleating more busheep spin?

Dont like my posts? Ignore me.

Post something I dont like, I'll respond

In a nutshell, YOU fuckoff.

I'll post what I want, when I want, where I want.

Especially if it shines a light on your ignorance

Don't like it?

Fuck if I care

seriously

[Big Train]

I have no problems with your opinion or you disagreeing with mine. I have problems when it goes off course into spelling, who is fat etc.. (By the way, I have never called him fat or a hack, check the posts, I called him a propoganda specialist).

Didn't really hit a nerve, just felt like responding in kind. You feel the need to use the term "busheep" which is arrogant in itself, which I take your advice and ignore.

It seems to me your the one hot under the collar. I just want to focus on the issues. You want to debate me, then debate me. I'm willing to give you points where I agree, but not on any of this childish bullshit.

[Cathedral]

Ya know, it really gets my blood boiling when liberal minds have the nerve to cry foul over people dying in a war while they support aborting viable lives in the wombs of women here at home.

You abortion supporting liberals make me fucking sick.
You think it is ok to pick and choose which life is valuable and which one's simply don't deserve a chance at life.

Michael Moore is a scum sucking jackass, just like the rest of you leftist pieces of shit.

Get a clue and learn that if you play, you must pay. Support life across the table or stay the fuck out of my way on election day.

Viva La Bush in '04!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Ya know, it really gets my blood boiling when liberal minds have the nerve to cry foul over people dying in a war while they support aborting viable lives in the wombs of women here at home.

You abortion supporting liberals make me fucking sick.
You think it is ok to pick and choose which life is valuable and which one's simply don't deserve a chance at life.

Michael Moore is a scum sucking jackass, just like the rest of you leftist pieces of shit.

Get a clue and learn that if you play, you must pay. Support life across the table or stay the fuck out of my way on election day.

Viva La Bush in '04!

Cath, with all due respect, and I do respect your opinions in here, can't this same argument be turned around on you?

Taking YOUR logic, if killing a human life is wrong, and only GOD should decide who is to die, then how can YOU justify the killing of thousands of innocents in a war that never had to happen?

I am not a scum sucking jackass, nor a piece of shit. I also dont believe that abortion is good, however I also believe in a woman's right to choose

I believe we need a society that doesnt WANT abortions, just as I believe we need a society that doesnt WANT wars

THIS was a war of CHOICE. It had nothing to do w/ 9-11, terrrorism, or an imminent threat to our soveriegnty.

And we WONT stay out of the way on election day, isnt THAT the whole point of freedom?

[Satan]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Ya know, it really gets my blood boiling when liberal minds have the nerve to cry foul over people dying in a war while they support aborting viable lives in the wombs of women here at home.

Who supports that?

You abortion supporting liberals make me fucking sick.
You think it is ok to pick and choose which life is valuable and which one's simply don't deserve a chance at life.

As opposed to George Bush slaughtering thousands of Iraqi civilians in the pursuit of one man, who himself was no threat to the United States.

Michael Moore is a scum sucking jackass, just like the rest of you leftist pieces of shit.

Michael Moore is a patriot who is sick and tired of his fellow Americans blindly accepting what a small group of megalomaniacal fascists have done to this country.

Get a clue and learn that if you play, you must pay. Support life across the table or stay the fuck out of my way on election day.



You need to pull that sequoia out of your own eye before making that charge. If you support senseless wars,which slaughter thousands of civilians, you do not "support life". And in the case of Iraq, half of those numbers are children, no less.

[WolfStar999]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Ya know, it really gets my blood boiling when liberal minds have the nerve to cry foul over people dying in a war while they support aborting viable lives in the wombs of women here at home.

You abortion supporting liberals make me fucking sick.
You think it is ok to pick and choose which life is valuable and which one's simply don't deserve a chance at life.

Michael Moore is a scum sucking jackass, just like the rest of you leftist pieces of shit.

Get a clue and learn that if you play, you must pay. Support life across the table or stay the fuck out of my way on election day.

Viva La Bush in '04!

Ah, pro-lifers. You folks are really good for a chuckle. It's really funny how you guys are so hell-bent on protecting "the pre-born", but once they leave the womb you really don't give a flying fuck what happens to them (or the 'saintly' mothers who give them life)...yep. That's as funny as a damn hole in the head.

And I hope I do make you sick, Cathedral. I'd like to think that my calling in life is pissing off rampaging dumbasses on both sides of the political spectrum. :asshole:

Here's why. I'm liberal, but two of the best people I have ever learned from, my Grandfather and my college professor, are both right-wing conservatives. The big thing is that we respect the opinions & thoughts of one another and recognize that we're all ultimately on the same teams as Americans and members of the human race. At the end of the day all want what is best for our country and the world around us, and we see that we gotta work together if we're gonna make any progress at all.

So go ahead and call me a pinko commie faggot tree-hugging terrorist or whatever you want to pull out of the rhetoric grab-bag. Just remember that as long as we fight amongst ourselves and drift towards jingoism and political extremes, we are forging another link in the chains that hold us all down.

Kiss black and white goodbye and embrace the gray area.

[WolfStar999]

And back to the war- I think we had every right to go into Afghanistan to hunt down Osama Bin Laden and his muslim version of Pat Robertson's 700 Club. We're more than justified in doing that. Going into Iraq on the other hand is a damn waste of time, manpower, and our collective energies. Saddam and his phantom stockpiles were about as dangerous to us as Fidel Castro wielding a bag of wet mice. If we really want to ensure the security of the world, we need to set very real priorities, and catching Bin Laden and his goon squad should be at the top of the list- not playing with our toys in the Iraqi sand.
If having legitimate concerns about the logic and agendas of President Bush and his administration and questioning a stupid and pointless war makes me unpatriotic, then you and your pals can come to my house and brand an upside down american flag on my back... I'll wear that with pride!

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Big Train
They knew about it. Hell, Michael Moore himself admits to knowing about it and sitting on that infomation. What went on there was a shame, I'm not denying it. To automatically assume all of things being assumed I think is a mistake. 1938 and 2004 are completely different times (i know, I can hear you now...). If an American citizen was just taken by the government, I"M SURE the family of that person would not be silent. Neither would the city and county they live in, neither would the ACLU, neither would the media and so on.

We are talking about a section of an act and running out of the park with it. I know you will never see it my way and I will never see it your way.

Seems with the kind of liberties the govt. can take with the law now, it wouldn't be too hard to just take the whole family in question... ...and denounce anyone who expresses outrage as a 'liberal left wing nut' the same way you do...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by WolfStar999
Ah, pro-lifers. You folks are really good for a chuckle. It's really funny how you guys are so hell-bent on protecting "the pre-born", but once they leave the womb you really don't give a flying fuck what happens to them (or the 'saintly' mothers who give them life)...yep. That's as funny as a damn hole in the head.



well said

you got MY vote

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by WolfStar999
And back to the war- I think we had every right to go into Afghanistan to hunt down Osama Bin Laden and his muslim version of Pat Robertson's 700 Club. We're more than justified in doing that. Going into Iraq on the other hand is a damn waste of time, manpower, and our collective energies. Saddam and his phantom stockpiles were about as dangerous to us as Fidel Castro wielding a bag of wet mice. If we really want to ensure the security of the world, we need to set very real priorities, and catching Bin Laden and his goon squad should be at the top of the list- not playing with our toys in the Iraqi sand.
If having legitimate concerns about the logic and agendas of President Bush and his administration and questioning a stupid and pointless war makes me unpatriotic, then you and your pals can come to my house and brand an upside down american flag on my back... I'll wear that with pride!

Here's a vote for ya!:D

Very well put!

[WolfStar999]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
well said

you got MY vote

Thank you, Thank you, folks. I'm here all week!