Post Punk: What's the current opinion?

[rustoffa]

So, it's a weird genre that lots of folks on here are probably ready do destroy. That being said, lots of it was going on during the popularity of the heavy music of the early to late eighties. I was forced to listen to alot of it recently via the playlist generation. You know, Siouxsie, The Fall, The Birthday Party, Echo and The Bunnymen....just all manner of that weird stuff. In all honesty, some of it sounded really good in retrospect when comparing the time, viability, etc.

[Kristy]

For one, true punk died in 1978. Everything else since has been commentary.

Two, bands (largely limey dog & pony acts) such as Echo & The Bunnymen, The Fall, Bauhaus were never punk. They were more or less not ready for MTV alternative or "college rock" (in 80's terminology) as it was better known in the USA. I myself am a hugh fan of Echo but there is absolutely nothing remotely punk about them.

[FORD]

"post punk" was just some label that corporate/media types wanted to put on the music that arrived after the whole Ramones/Pistols/Damned/Clash/GenerationX wave.

I've heard the label applied to everyone from Elvis Costello to Blondie to Siouxsie to Adam and the fucking Ants. The latter two who directly emerged from the Sex Pistols "Bromley Contingent" fan club. The "post punk" label even applied to new bands that were going out of their way to sound like OLD bands from the 60s, such as the Welsh band "17", who would later rename themselves "The Alarm"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UYmBUjyQo

Fuck labels... music is either good or its not. And even that may be totally subjective in some cases. But in the case of the song above, I can dig it.

[FORD]

Might as well post the other side of the single....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNU-kLHBaA

[FORD]

The Professionals.... literally "post punks", as they were what was left of the Sex Pistols after the 1978 US tour meltdown/departure of Johnny Rotten/death of Sid Vicious......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odrMmceCYz0

[FORD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBA8UMSC3eA

[FORD]

Then there's this little band from Dublin who was considered "post punk" before they really discovered their own "sound" and hit the big time........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVYAPmdckBY

[rustoffa]

I knew Ford would weigh in on this. I'm not trying to say any of the bands I mentioned were ever Punk. Well, I guess Siouxsie was for a bit. It's basically the Post Punk movement, or partial crawl, or whatever. Mostly British...

[rustoffa]

That Birthday Party shit was weird. It sounds like Pere Ubu with Nick cave beating on sewer pipes or something.

[FORD]

Siouxie Sioux launched her career from this infamous BBC interview......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKgRRhlsrN8

"You dirty fucker.... what a fucking rotter....."

[rustoffa]

She's basically an Icon over there. I guess I'd throw TSOL and Husker Du in the mix as well. This is great argument material.

[FORD]

That Birthday Party shit was weird. It sounds like Pere Ubu with Nick cave beating on sewer pipes or something.

Yeah, they were really "dark" for the times.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5I2vEcVC_I

no doubt inspired a lot of the "goth" and "industrial" scenes. In fact, if I remember correctly, Blixa Bargeld who formed the "pioneer" industrial band Einsteurzende Neubauten also worked with Nick Cave on a few occasions, both in the Birthday Party and later with the Bad Seeds.

[FORD]

Speaking of Neubauten.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LDfaTVvlTA


...goddamn, the stories I could tell about this album and the poster of it's cover art..... :biggrin:

[rustoffa]

It was stupid.

[rustoffa]

Quit killing me man. Back to the subject....was Joy Division/New Order post punk? Gang Of Four?

[rustoffa]

It was stupid.

Referring to the Birthday Party. Nothing anyone has posted is stupid except for probably me.

[FORD]

Quit killing me man. Back to the subject....was Joy Division/New Order post punk? Gang Of Four?

What ever "post punk" meant (if anything) Joy Division would probably fit the label..... New Order? Probably not so much.

Yeah, it was almost the same band, but after Ian Curtis died, they decidedly changed the direction and moved more into the early stages of "techno" wave with the keyboards.

Though I still say Peter Hook was one of the most under-rated bass players of all time. Apparently , there's a version of "New Order" touring now without him? If so, I ain't remotely interested in hearing it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVc29bYIvCM

[FORD]

And speaking of Siouxsie.... haven't heard this one in fucking years.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgE41B3JQF8

[FORD]

Trivial note: The original drummer for Siouxsie and the Banshees was one John Simon Ritchie a.k.a. Sid Vicious.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gk2cGHxi0b4/Thw8fux0I8I/AAAAAAAAAYY/plQQJFsCy_A/s1600/tumblr_lbqfy402ey1qckm0wo1_500.jpg

[vandeleur]

The banshees had one of my all time fave guitarists as a member .
John mcgeoch , the man pretty much defines the word underrated .
A Man of beautiful talent.

Siouxsie might be the worst band I had ever seen live . Shocking .

[ashstralia]

my sister was one of those alternative mod/ska people in the early to mid 80's; she's 2 years older'n me.

i was skinny long hair metal kid, her and her friends took the piss outta me relentlessly.

secretly, i loved a lot of their music. 'happy house' is great. and some early cure. where does debby harry, or bryan ferry fit in here? both legitimate legends in my mind.

'talking about music is like fishing about architecture' :)

[vandeleur]

Blondie were part of the cbgb thing so they must be punk by default .
And I always loved the Zappa quote :D

[FORD]

Somebody say "early Cure"??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DE1ndftmPE

[ashstralia]

that's the shit right there ford!!!

so i grew up with maiden, ac/dc, =vh=, and post punk. it all kinda makes sense now, thirty years on. :D

[FORD]

Maiden started out sort of punkish.... nobody would have mistaken them for the Clash or anything like that, but they were definitely influenced by what happened in London in the mid 70s.

Van Halen was probably the only so called "metal" band that the punks on the US West Coast ever accepted. Henry Rollins has said something like Van Halen's first album made Johnny Rotten seem like a hairdresser.

Not that Van Halen was ever "metal" but that's how the media tagged them in the early 80s. Same with Ac/Dc... probably because they wrote so many songs with "Hell" in the title, they had to be "metal".... But I always thought Bon - era AC/DC had more in common with punk rock than it did with Black Sabbath or Judas Priest (which were the definitions of metal at the time, as far as I was concerned)

[ashstralia]

definitely mate. ridgey didge acca dacca (must give them their proper aussie name) was more a very loud blues band, with talented players and a gift for writing songs working people can relate to. there's no bon scott material i don't like.

sometimes success is it's own worst enemy.

[vandeleur]

Amazing guitarist ....check
Punk sex symbol love of little vandeleurs teen years ..... Check
Tuneless old witch lol ... Check


http://youtu.be/WTPOtyH0dtg

[twonabomber]

Maybe a little past post punk, but I love me some Love And Rockets.

[Kristy]

Quit killing me man. Back to the subject....was Joy Division/New Order post punk? Gang Of Four?

http://www.highbiasindustries.com/about/wire.jpeg

Post punk was short lived. Bands that flew under the post-punk moniker were acts such as Wire, Television, even Pere Ubu where punk went from a belligerent stance to becoming another boring "art form." That's not to say those bands weren't any good. In fact, they became some of the heavy hitters in terms of "influence." After 1978 "punk" became splintered and various genres did pop up like "proto punk". "art punk" "New York punk" but it was all really a precursor to "new wave" and eventually alternative rock. The only true sub genre of new wave/alternative was goth which spurned the likes of Joy Division, The Cure (yes they were actually goth in their early days), Sisters Of Mercy (later The Sisterhood and then back to Sisters Of Mercy) Bauhaus and you can even throw in acts such as Cabaret Voltaire. Whereas alternative was "poppy" and "trendy" goth acts sung of desperation, isolationism, urban paranoia and anti-culture norms (whatever that is). Unlike punk, goth was largely a limey invention but its days too were short lived and many opted to go for the alternative market because that's where the money was.

To me the only true punk act in the 80's was Crass who put out one of the best album covers of all time though the best parts were recorded between '78-80:
http://antipunk.org/wp-content/uploads/crass-13.jpg

They were about as anti-Thatcher/anti-government, pro think for yourself with so much nihilism that I will argue this was the last truly punk record ever to be made. Gang Of Four (with the oh-so in love with himself Andy Gill) and other acts that followed did sing of social injustices, social engineering, class wars and the like but to me much of that was bland pseudo-intellectualism and no band did that better than the Clash but that is another story.

80's acts like Minutemen, Dead Kennedys, MDC, SubHumAnz were more political than punk. They were commentary. Nothing more.

Bands such as Green Day, Rancid and the like are about as punk as Tom Petty. They represent the corporate controlled entity of what punk has now become.

[vandeleur]

78-80 .. If we are talking that time period I would like to chip in one of my fav bands of all time Stiff little fingers . Who in my mind knocked out two amazing albums in that time period and
In their original format where as good as the other bigger names at the time.
Plus they were blistering live.

[Kristy]

SLF were at least to me, a poor man's Clash. 'Inflammable Material' reguared by many critics as beign one of the best punk rock records ever recorded was more of a angry stance about social injustice(s) of being dirt poor in Ireland than punk. Of course that album was also criticized for having overtly racist motifs (which I really don't see/hear - it was most definitely anti-British). Problem with SLF was Jake Burns could never quit follow up on his anger and fell into the usual claptrap of write songs about women ('Just Fade Away', 'Price Of Admission') or, again, pseudo-intellectualism (Safe As Houses, Stands To Reason,) even Mr. Fire Coal Man lacked any substance. No wonder he chucked his guitar and took a job at the BBC. Fucking sell-out

[vandeleur]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but yours is shite :biggrin:

I am well aware of slf quality control deteriorated and in 84 when they split it should have been it .
As for jakey boy being a sell out , every one sells out , he just sold out for less than most :D

Met him a couple of times and he is a really nice guy and has some great stories about the day .
It's weird talking to people who where there and how history has given mythical status to things they call their lives .

As for a poor mans clash , the clash wernt even a very good clash sometimes .
Stummer is a legend but maybe legends are people who don't last long enough to fuck it up .

[Kristy]

As for a poor mans clash , the clash wernt even a very good clash sometimes .
Stummer is a legend but maybe legends are people who don't last long enough to fuck it up .

SLF were a poor man's Clash. So fuck you.

As for The Clash, they were over-paid, over-hyped and over-fucked. I never once considered them to be punk. Their collaboration with Sandy Pearlman sealed their fate and proved they were a farce for all I cared.

[clarathecarrot]

I guess there is little or no way to get your music heard and it is a good thing to cut a album or cassette...bands need money and living the hard life I am about to descrie is as buddah, under a tree waiting ...only for people to see you live is a great road of super unknown...Ok, here how it go...

I conscider a punk band "plays in small dive clubs, VFW Halls rent by the night reception halls, with a more than certain attitude about the shit that is outlawed in the "suburbanbliss" of the world" and once they cut a record deal...they are no longer punk.

How else would we know of them unless they compromised to a record company....you can tell on your own who tried to stay the way of the original ideal....HAh!

Punks ...and there ideals...a fine line of mainstream money or sacred truths...who knows were the Punk is?

You won't find it on a record.

[binnie]

'Post-punk' is a tough label to pin down - by definition, any music that comes after punk is 'post-punk'. Seems to me that a lot of bands that get termed by that label don't have much in common: I've heard Killing Joke and Echo & the Bunnymen put under that label, and they're very different entities indeed.

That being said, I think that people need to remember the '80s (or, at least, the early '80s) somewhat differently to how it's viewed now (i.e. as the decade when 'true' music died). Seems to me that below the bubblegum pop and New Romantic radar there was some highly inventive and darkly beaufitul music being made. People have already mentioned Echo, but I'd through in a whole lot of Ska acts, some 2-Tone, and the wave of emerging American indie bands (like REM and the Replacements). And that's before we even get to goth.

Maybe it's because I'm too young to actually remember the early '80s, but when I think of it I think about The Cult and The Cure, not Duran Duran.

[vandeleur]

Man don't give me the young bit , am young and can still remember stage diving with Ian astbury when his band had just lost the southern from their name and they were newly named the death cult :D

[DONNIEP]

Man don't give me the young bit , am young and can still remember stage diving with Ian astbury when his band had just lost the southern from their name and they were newly named the death cult :D

Young?? You're older than Egyptian sand! :lol:

[vandeleur]

Dude am young , your only as old as the woman your feeling and I keep a little cheeky 20 year old in the basement :D