If Legalizing Marijuana Was Supposed To Cause More Crime...

[Seshmeister]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/marijuana-crime-denver_n_5595742.html


If Legalizing Marijuana Was Supposed To Cause More Crime, It's Not Doing A Very Good Job
Posted: 07/17/2014 2:34 pm EDT Updated: 07/17/2014 7:59 pm EDT

When Colorado legalized weed more than a year ago, opponents of the move warned that crime would rise. But half a year after the first sales of recreational marijuana began, the state's biggest city has yet to see an increase in criminal activity.

During the first six months of 2014, violent crime in the city and county of Denver was down 3 percent from the same period in 2013, according to the most recent available data. Three of the four main categories of violent crime that are tracked in the data -- homicide, sexual assault and robbery -- are all down from the same six-month stretch last year. Aggravated assault, the fourth category, is up 2.2 percent.

Burglaries and robberies at the city's dispensaries of medical and/or recreational marijuana are on track to hit a three-year low, according to a separate report from Denver's Department of Safety, first reported by The Denver Post.

Overall, property crime in the city is down by more than 11 percent from the same six-month period of 2013.

Of course, Denver is just one city with legal weed. But as the first, albeit no longer only, large municipality in the U.S. with legal retail marijuana shops, Denver seems a worthy example. The state's second-largest city, Colorado Springs, banned the retail shops in 2013 as did more than two dozen other cities. While Washington state has also legalized recreational weed, sales began just this month and only a handful of shops have opened there.

Correlation does not imply causation, regardless of which way the crime data move, and after just six months, it may be too early to identify any strong social trends. But evidence of a crime wave simply has not materialized -- despite numerous dire warnings prior to legalization.

In 2012, before Amendment 64 legalized marijuana in Colorado for recreational sale and use, multiple members of the state's law enforcement community warned that the measure would bring "harmful" consequences.

"Expect more crime, more kids using marijuana and pot for sale everywhere," Douglas County Sheriff David Weaver said in 2012. "I think our entire state will pay the price."

Crime rates may not have gone up, but revenue is soaring. Since January, Colorado's dispensaries have sold about $90 million worth of retail cannabis. The state has collected about $35 million in taxes, licenses and fees from both the recreational and medical marijuana markets, according to the Colorado Department of Revenue's latest tax data. Colorado legalized medical marijuana in 2000.

Denver's crime statistics during the first six months of retail marijuana align with a report recently published in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS ONE showing that legalizing medical marijuana causes no increase in crime and may in fact be accompanied by a decrease in some violent crime, including homicide.

Just Colorado and Washington state permit retail marijuana. To date, 23 states and the District of Columbia have legalized marijuana for medical use, and about a dozen others are considering legalization in some form in the next few years.

[Nickdfresh]

It seems that Fox News is of course highlighting a surge of homeless coming in for the presumably legal pot...

[Nitro Express]

I have a friend who works in an Emergency Room. Alcohol keeps them busy and he hates the stuff because of how it turns people into dangerous assholes. He once told me, he had been working in the ER for several years and never saw one incident that was related to pot. Not one. He said it's alcohol that is the real monster but pot gets a worse rap.

[FORD]

Haven't checked the stats here in Washington state yet, but if there was to be an increase in crime, it would probably be bank robberies to get the money to pay the ridiculous prices they're charging for the legal weed.

[Kristy]

Aggravated assault, the fourth category, is up 2.2 percent.

Most of that increase is due to the Denver Police themselves. This city taxpayers have paid out millions in lawsuits and/or settlements due to an upsurge in police brutality.



Denver's crime statistics during the first six months of retail marijuana align with a report recently published in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS ONE showing that legalizing medical marijuana causes no increase in crime and may in fact be accompanied by a decrease in some violent crime, including homicide.

Why is anyone not surprised by this? Compare those stats in the first months of 2014 in Colorado to that of America's ridiculous "War On Drugs" in the early 1970's and see how and why crime rates were on the rise and how many innocent and nonviolent people lost their lives as a result. As so many proponents of legalization have endlessly said 'take out the drug trade and you take out the crime.' What scares me is the clout America's private prison-for-profit lobbyists have knowing that incarcerating nonviolent offenders of weed has made many a politician a lot of money. I'm not so sure I see that much of a change on the horizon - especially in states where those prison systems are the big business. My other scare is seeing if legalization of weed becomes more societal acceptable how the mega-corporations will move in and dictate sales and distribution making it the new legal racket as it is now with alcohol.

[Nitro Express]

You always hear people say, legalize weed and tax the hell out of it. Ok. But price is always a factor. If legal weed is too expensive then there will be a black market. If they are charging a premium for the legal stuff the quality better be good. But there is always that price issue.

The problem I heard was there are too few legal pot farmers at the moment.

[Kristy]

Haven't checked the stats here in Washington state yet, but if there was to be an increase in crime, it would probably be bank robberies to get the money to pay the ridiculous prices they're charging for the legal weed.

Way too cynical there. That behavior is more indicative of meth heads who write bad checks to stay addicted.

[Nitro Express]

Most of that increase is due to the Denver Police themselves. This city taxpayers have paid out millions in lawsuits and/or settlements due to an upsurge in police brutality.




Why is anyone not surprised by this? Compare those stats in the first months of 2014 in Colorado to that of America's ridiculous "War On Drugs" in the early 1970's and see how and why crime rates were on the rise and how many innocent and nonviolent people lost their lives as a result. As so many proponents of legalization have endlessly said 'take out the drug trade and you take out the crime.' What scares me is the clout America's private prison-for-profit lobbyists have knowing that incarcerating nonviolent offenders of weed has made many a politician a lot of money. I'm not so sure I see that much of a change on the horizon - especially in states where those prison systems are the big business. My other scare is seeing if legalization of weed become more sociably and societal acceptable how the mega-corporations will move in and dictate sales and distribution making it the new legal racket as it is now with alcohol.

The state of Idaho took their prison back under state control due to the private prison degrading into a house of horrors. I guess the place degraded into a real hell hole with guards letting prisoners fight each other and all sorts of abuse and neglect. I think private prisons need to be illegal. They are ran like shit. There is always the profit incentive and the political corruption. It's a proven failure. Time to dump the concept.

[FORD]

You always hear people say, legalize weed and tax the hell out of it. Ok. But price is always a factor. If legal weed is too expensive then there will be a black market. If they are charging a premium for the legal stuff the quality better be good. But there is always that price issue.

The problem I heard was there are too few legal pot farmers at the moment.

That's definitely part of it. Supply vs demand has always driven the price of weed, of course. But the state regulated version has taken that to an entirely new level. You have a limited number of growers, a limited number of retailers, and the fact that this is all still relatively new, keeping the crops in short supply even among those who are already open for business. If they had handled it the way that Colorado did, and allowed the existing medical dispensaries to roll over into retail, it would have been an easier transition. But the state insisted on keeping them entirely seperate, probably because the state Liquor Control Board has needed something to obsess over since liquor sales were privatized (which is another disaster altogether, but I don't want to derail the thread).

In theory, more farmers and more retailers should drive the prices down. Hopefully so. :littlebong:

[Kristy]

In theory, more farmers and more retailers should drive the prices down. Hopefully so. :littlebong:

Problem with that theory is that under Colorado law growers cannot have a surplus of weed. In other words they cannot grow more than what they are (currently) selling. Prices should moderate but I'm for them staying relatively high (geddit?). Simple because it does take out the incentive for creating black markets and keeping it out of the hands of minors.

I also hope more states do legalize. So sick of seeing F A T as fuck Texans coming here buying legal weed only to complain about it.

Plus, I really hate Texass and all fucking F A T Texans.

[FORD]

The best thing that could happen for us is Oregon voting for legalization next month. The state of Washington is well aware of what happens when they price things too high, especially due to taxes. Some folks will just drive over the river and buy it there. They actually park state patrol cars on I-5 just north of the Columbia, hoping to bust people who do their Xmas shopping in Portland to dodge sales taxes. I can imagine even more of these tactics if the legal weed is cheaper there. Or, to make it a non-issue, and keep the tax revenue going here, they'll just open it up a little more.

[Mushroom]

The article fails to mention the increase in DUIs and accidents with marijuana. Dont give me the bullshit line.. Oh I drive better when I'm stoned.

The increase in homeless true or not I think is laughable. People migrated to Denver hoping to strike it rich, or at least get a job in the industry because its the only experience they have. Lol. Dumb fucks.

[Seshmeister]

The article fails to mention the increase in DUIs and accidents with marijuana. Dont give me the bullshit line.. Oh I drive better when I'm stoned.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/05/since-marijuana-legalization-highway-fatalities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/

Since marijuana legalization, highway fatalities in Colorado are at near-historic lows

By Radley Balko August 5


Since Colorado voters legalized pot in 2012, prohibition supporters have warned that recreational marijuana will lead to a scourge of “drugged divers” on the state’s roads. They often point out that when the state legalized medical marijuana in 2001, there was a surge in drivers found to have smoked pot. They also point to studies showing that in other states that have legalized pot for medical purposes, we’ve seen an increase in the number of drivers testing positive for the drug who were involved in fatal car accidents. The anti-pot group SAM recently pointed out that even before the first legal pot store opened in Washington state, the number of drivers in that state testing positive for pot jumped by a third.

The problem with these criticisms is that we can test only for the presence of marijuana metabolites, not for inebriation. Metabolites can linger in the body for days after the drug’s effects wear off — sometimes even for weeks. Because we all metabolize drugs differently (and at different times and under different conditions), all that a positive test tells us is that the driver has smoked pot at some point in the past few days or weeks.

It makes sense that loosening restrictions on pot would result in a higher percentage of drivers involved in fatal traffic accidents having smoked the drug at some point over the past few days or weeks. You’d also expect to find that a higher percentage of churchgoers, good Samaritans and soup kitchen volunteers would have pot in their system. You’d expect a similar result among any large sampling of people. This doesn’t necessarily mean that marijuana caused or was even a contributing factor to accidents, traffic violations or fatalities.

This isn’t an argument that pot wasn’t a factor in at least some of those accidents, either. But that’s precisely the point. A post-accident test for marijuana metabolites doesn’t tell us much at all about whether pot contributed to the accident.


Since the new Colorado law took effect in January, the “drugged driver” panic has only intensified. I’ve already written about one dubious example, in which the Colorado Highway Patrol and some local and national media perpetuated a story that a driver was high on pot when he slammed into a couple of police cars parked on an interstate exit ramp. While the driver did have some pot in his system, his blood-alcohol level was off the charts and was far more likely the cause of the accident. In my colleague Marc Fisher’s recent dispatch from Colorado, law enforcement officials there and in bordering states warned that they’re seeing more drugged drivers. Congress recently held hearings on the matter, complete with dire predictions such as “We are going to have a lot more people stoned on the highway and there will be consequences,” from Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.). Some have called for a zero tolerance policy — if you’re driving with any trace of pot in your system, you’re guilty of a DWI. That would effectively ban anyone who smokes pot from driving for up to a couple of weeks after their last joint, including people who legitimately use the drug for medical reasons.

It seems to me that the best way to gauge the effect legalization has had on the roadways is to look at what has happened on the roads since legalization took effect. Here’s a month-by-month comparison of highway fatalities in Colorado through the first seven months of this year and last year. For a more thorough comparison, I’ve also included the highest fatality figures for each month since 2002, the lowest for each month since 2002 and the average for each month since 2002.


http://img.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2014/08/CoTrafficDeaths.jpg


As you can see, roadway fatalities this year are down from last year, and down from the 13-year average. Of the seven months so far this year, five months saw a lower fatality figure this year than last, two months saw a slightly higher figure this year, and in one month the two figures were equal. If we add up the total fatalities from January through July, it looks like this:

http://img.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2014/08/COTotalDeaths.jpg

Here, the “high” bar (pardon the pun) is what you get when you add the worst January since 2002 to the worst February, to the worst March, and so on. The “low” bar is the sum total of the safest January, February, etc., since 2002. What’s notable here is that the totals so far in 2014 are closer to the safest composite year since 2002 than to the average year since 2002. I should also add here that these are total fatalities. If we were to calculate these figures as a rate — say, miles driven per fatality — the drop would be starker, both for this year and since Colorado legalized medical marijuana in 2001. While the number of miles Americans drive annually has leveled off nationally since the mid-2000s, the number of total miles traveled continues to go up in Colorado. If we were to measure by rate, then, the state would be at lows unseen in decades.

The figures are similar in states that have legalized medical marijuana. While some studies have shown that the number of drivers involved in fatal collisions who test positive for marijuana has steadily increased as pot has become more available, other studies have shown that overall traffic fatalities in those states have dropped. Again, because the pot tests only measure for recent pot use, not inebriation, there’s nothing inconsistent about those results.

Of course, the continuing drop in roadway fatalities, in Colorado and elsewhere, is due to a variety of factors, such as better-built cars and trucks, improved safety features and better road engineering. These figures in and of themselves only indicate that the roads are getting safer; they don’t suggest that pot had anything to do with it. We’re also only seven months in. Maybe these figures will change. Finally, it’s also possible that if it weren’t for legal pot, the 2014 figures would be even lower. There’s no real way to know that. We can only look at the data available. But you can bet that if fatalities were up this year, prohibition supporters would be blaming it on legal marijuana. (Interestingly, though road fatalities have generally been falling in Colorado for a long time, 2013 actually saw a slight increase from 2012. So fatalities are down the year after legalization, after having gone up the year before.)

That said, some researchers have gone so far as to suggest that better access to pot is making the roads safer, at least marginally. The theory is that people are substituting pot for alcohol, and pot causes less driver impairment than booze. I’d need to see more studies before I’d be ready to endorse that theory. For example, there’s also some research contradicting the theory that drinkers are ready to substitute pot for alcohol.


But the data are far more supportive of that than of the claims that stoned drivers are menacing Colorado’s roadways.

[FORD]

I'll admit to driving drunk and driving stoned in the past. Worst thing that happened driving stoned was that I got "lost" on a road that was 2 miles from where I grew up and certainly should have recognized instantly. Driving drunk, I ran into a ditch (miraculously also drove out of it) and probably knocked over a mailbox or two, but thankfully never hurt myself or anybody else. Including the time that I drove around town shitfaced on Bacardi 151, intending to hurt the son of a bitch who threw something at my car earlier that night. Fortunately for both of us, I never found him.

[Seshmeister]

I've never driven stoned but the stories I've heard of people that did usually involve them driving too slowly.

I wonder how many people on the roads are out their faces on prescription drugs?

[Mushroom]

Im not buying it yet. Vehicular accidents/fatalities have continued to decrease since the automobile was invented.

[Mushroom]

I've never driven stoned but the stories I've heard of people that did usually involve them driving too slowly.

I wonder how many people on the roads are out their faces on prescription drugs?

Regardless judgement is impaired and reaction slower.

Yes its likely true the number of drivers on prescription meds (legally and illegally) far outnumber the stoners.

[FORD]

Regardless judgement is impaired and reaction slower.

Yes its likely true the number of drivers on prescription meds (legally and illegally) far outnumber the stoners.

Which makes it all the more ironic that Patrick Kennedy - who crashed his car in an Ambien coma - is the leading "celebrity" voice against legalization of weed.

[Kristy]

The article fails to mention the increase in DUIs and accidents with marijuana. Dont give me the bullshit line.. Oh I drive better when I'm stoned.

Oh, fuck you. In this state it's rather hard to get by driving under any influence and not get caught. Sobriety check points are strategically placed from mountain ski towns to the high plains. Now, sobriety check points may be may pronounced in other states but here I can tell you the State Patrol knows where to look where people (usually yuppies) are known to drink. And who in the fuck ever said driving stoned makes them drive better? According to a 2012 study "...SFST were mildly sensitive to impairment from cannabis in heavy users. Lack of sensitivity might be attributed to tolerance and time of testing. SFST were sensitive to both doses of alcohol." SFST= Standardized Field Sobriety Tests.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3456923/

What that means, you asshole, is even when heavy cannabis users who were driving under the influence were less likely to make impaired judgements while operating a vehicle than one who had been drinking. That's not to say stoned drivers are impaired but the statistical likelihood of a stoned driver causing an accident is less than a drunk one. I can also tell you that doesn't change the DWI or DUI laws in this state, either. Colorado has not relaxed its laws on impaired driving one bit. Imprisonment, fines, loss of license, etc and can be more severe than drunk driving. If anything, stoners are less likely to know where their car keys are. So shove your panic wagon right up your F A T ass.


The increase in homeless true or not I think is laughable. People migrated to Denver hoping to strike it rich, or at least get a job in the industry because its the only experience they have. Lol. Dumb fucks.

Denver has always had a high homeless population. Most of that is due to relaxed or ignored immigration laws thanks to our current governor. But that is a different story.

[Kristy]

I've never driven stoned but the stories I've heard of people that did usually involve them driving too slowly.

Exactly what the State Patrol looks for. Which makes this story rather ironic:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24896305/csp-says-stoned-driver-crashed-into-2-patrol

[Mushroom]

Oh, fuck you. In this state it's rather hard to get by driving under any influence and not get caught. Sobriety check points are strategically placed from mountain ski towns to the high plains. Now, sobriety check points may be may pronounced in other states but here I can tell you the State Patrol knows where to look where people (usually yuppies) are known to drink. And who in the fuck ever said driving stoned makes them drive better? According to a 2012 study "...SFST were mildly sensitive to impairment from cannabis in heavy users. Lack of sensitivity might be attributed to tolerance and time of testing. SFST were sensitive to both doses of alcohol." SFST= Standardized Field Sobriety Tests.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3456923/

What that means, you asshole, is even when heavy cannabis users who were driving under the influence were less likely to make impaired judgements while operating a vehicle than one who had been drinking. That's not to say stoned drivers are impaired but the statistical likelihood of a stoned driver causing an accident is less than a drunk one. I can also tell you that doesn't change the DWI or DUI laws in this state, either. Colorado has not relaxed its laws on impaired driving one bit. Imprisonment, fines, loss of license, etc and can be more severe than drunk driving. If anything, stoners are less likely to know where their car keys are. So shove your panic wagon right up your F A T ass.



Denver has always had a high homeless population. Most of that is due to relaxed or ignored immigration laws thanks to our current governor. But that is a different story.

Hey fuckface. No where did I say stoned drivers are more or less dangerous than drunk drivers. But if you can do math, you should realize that legalizing weed will equate to more people on the road driving under the influence. I'm not sure anybody can say for a fact that equates to less people driving under the influence. You will always have idiots who live life that way plus the average person who will make a dumb decision.

Honey we know you are exceptional

[cadaverdog]

I'll admit to driving drunk and driving stoned in the past. Worst thing that happened driving stoned was that I got "lost" on a road that was 2 miles from where I grew up and certainly should have recognized instantly.
From what I've seen you post I assume you don't smoke pot much if at all anymore. Some of the pot they have now is alot more powerful than the stuff I used to smoke including what we called skunk or Humbolt in the early 80s. The top shelf weed they sell at the dispensaries here gets me too high so I don't smoke it. I don't get really high and drive anyway but I damn sure wouldn't try to drive after I smoked some of that shit. A few years ago I drove to the fairgrounds to party with a friend of mine who parked his motorhome there for a bike run and show. I smoked a couple bongloads of some really hi grade stuff he had and I had a helluva time driving home. I thought I was too high to drive but it turned out the slave cylinder that operates the clutch had gone bad and wasn't letting the clutch out far enough to shift the damn thing. I would have realized that if I hadn't been so stoned. If I couldn't take back streets all the way home I probably would have turned back immediatly and crashed out in the motorhome for the night. If I had gotten pulled over there's no way I could have passed a sobriety check.

[cadaverdog]

Hey fuckface. No where did I say stoned drivers are more or less dangerous than drunk drivers.

I'd say it depends on how stoned you are. A really stoned driver especially if they're an inexperienced driver might be just as dangerous as a drunk driver but a really drunk driver is probably more dangerous than a really stoned driver in most instances. A tired driver can be more dangerous than either one.

[Kristy]

But if you can do math, you should realize that legalizing weed will equate to more people on the road driving under the influence.

Again, fuck you and your fundamental prohibitionist horseshit. Fuck math. Correlation does not imply causation.

[Kristy]

From what I've seen you post I assume you don't smoke pot much if at all anymore. Some of the pot they have now is alot more powerful than the stuff I used to smoke including what we called skunk or Humbolt in the early 80s. The top shelf weed they sell at the dispensaries here gets me too high so I don't smoke it. I don't get really high and drive anyway but I damn sure wouldn't try to drive after I smoked some of that shit. A few years ago I drove to the fairgrounds to party with a friend of mine who parked his motorhome there for a bike run and show. I smoked a couple bongloads of some really hi grade stuff he had and I had a helluva time driving home. I thought I was too high to drive but it turned out the slave cylinder that operates the clutch had gone bad and wasn't letting the clutch out far enough to shift the damn thing. I would have realized that if I hadn't been so stoned. If I couldn't take back streets all the way home I probably would have turned back immediatly and crashed out in the motorhome for the night. If I had gotten pulled over there's no way I could have passed a sobriety check.

Do you ever shut the fuck up?

[Mushroom]

Do you ever shut the fuck up?

You are an intolerant angry Nazi-liberal. :love0003:

[cadaverdog]

You are an intolerant angry Nazi-liberal. :love0003:
You left out ghey.

[Angel]

I've never driven stoned but the stories I've heard of people that did usually involve them driving too slowly.

Haha..1982. Driving a hwy with a 75 mph limit. Cars are FLYING by in the passing lane. My passenger and I both look at the speedometer at the same time...we're doing 25 :eek:



Regardless judgement is impaired and reaction slower.

Only for occasional and weekend users. Studies indicate that chronic smokers show very little impairment or slower reaction times.

[FORD]

You are an intolerant angry Nazi-liberal. :love0003:

That sentence is an oxymoron (and no, that was not a Limbaugh reference)

[FORD]

Haha..1982. Driving a hwy with a 75 mph limit. Cars are FLYING by in the passing lane. My passenger and I both look at the speedometer at the same time...we're doing 25 :eek:


That's because you're Canadian and you were reading the speedometer in km/h :biggrin:

[Kristy]

You are an intolerant angry Nazi-liberal. :love0003:

Was I talking to you, toolsack?

[cadaverdog]

That sentence is an oxymoron
The Nazi part maybe. The rest is spot on.

[Mushroom]

I think you stoners are projecting your personal values or feelings onto every other stoner as if they all act and think as you do. Not all stoners are as intelligent as you.;)

People driving 25 in a 75 with traffic are dangerous fuckheads

[DONNIEP]

Ugh, too many words.

[Hardrock69]

It is a fact that alcohol-related traffic fatalities have dropped in all states where marijuana is legal (for any reason) compared to states that keep it illegal.

http://www.tokesignals.com/auto-insurance-site-says-marijuana-users-are-safer-drivers/


Study from the University of Chicago:

http://gatton.uky.edu/faculty/sandford/391_f13/marijuana.pdf

[Hardrock69]

The proposal in Oregon will allow people to grow up to 4 plants, AND possess 8 ounces of usable pot at a time.
They have been able to look at the Washington model and the Colorado model and try to improve on it.

Full text is here:

http://ballotpedia.org/Oregon_Legalized_Marijuana_Initiative,_Measure_91_ %282014%29,_Full_text_of_measure

[Seshmeister]

Maybe there are more accidents but they are less serious? :)

I would guess that stoned people just don't travel that much compared to people who are drinking. Alcohol gives you more 'false' confidence whereby if someone has a few beers they think they are a better driver whereas even 1 makes you worse. Maybe it's just me but my memory of smoking dope is that driving is the last thing I would want to do when I was stoned, I would be too paranoid about being stopped.

[DONNIEP]

It's a known fact that a drink steadies the hand. That's why pilots have a few belts before take off.

[cadaverdog]

I think you stoners are projecting your personal values or feelings onto every other stoner as if they all act and think as you do. Not all stoners are as intelligent as you.;)

People driving 25 in a 75 with traffic are dangerous fuckheads
I personally don't agree that chronic pot smokers aren't affected as much as part time users. They're just more used to driving stoned. I have more of a problem with depth and time perception when I'm stoned than I do with reaction time. I drive the dragsters at Malibu Speed Zone stoned to the bone and still beat most of the other drivers off the line. When I was a teenager I bracket raced my Chevelle and ran consistent times stoned to the bone too. As far as the 25 in a 75 goes I've never been that stoned personally but I've caught myself driving slower than I should have been but only around 5 mph slower.

[FORD]

The proposal in Oregon will allow people to grow up to 4 plants, AND possess 8 ounces of usable pot at a time.
They have been able to look at the Washington model and the Colorado model and try to improve on it.

Full text is here:

http://ballotpedia.org/Oregon_Legalized_Marijuana_Initiative,_Measure_91_ %282014%29,_Full_text_of_measure

It's great that they added industrial hemp to the mix. That issue wasn't even addressed in the Washington law. You STILL can't grow the non-stoney Hemp here. Hell, even Bitch McTurtle is in favor of that.

[VetteLS5]

It's a known fact that a drink steadies the hand. That's why pilots have a few belts before take off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4plPGRG8o

[Nitro Express]

The best thing that could happen for us is Oregon voting for legalization next month. The state of Washington is well aware of what happens when they price things too high, especially due to taxes. Some folks will just drive over the river and buy it there. They actually park state patrol cars on I-5 just north of the Columbia, hoping to bust people who do their Xmas shopping in Portland to dodge sales taxes. I can imagine even more of these tactics if the legal weed is cheaper there. Or, to make it a non-issue, and keep the tax revenue going here, they'll just open it up a little more.

I've always thought the state of Washington was a bit heavy handed. The state likes to throw it's weight around. Last I checked it was a free country where you could travel across state lines and shop in stores. Busted for what? Driving and shopping out of state?

[FORD]

I'm not sure how widespread the practice is anymore. If you live in Vancouver, and it's a matter of merely driving over the bridge, then probably so. Anywhere else, then the high gas prices are probably going to negate any savings from not paying sales tax. Not to mention that a lot of people do their Xmas shopping on line now and don't bother with malls in either state.

When weed is legal in Oregon, I'd say the odds of people crossing the river to buy it depends on how they implement their legalization. And from what I've seen of the Oregon law, it looks more like the Colorado model than the Washington, so they might well have better selection & prices right out of the gate.

[DONNIEP]

We used to have the same problem here. It it was driving over the state line to buy the good fireworks and those were illegal here. You mean to tell me Washington state was arresting people for bringing legal goods across state lines??? How the fuck did that hold up in court??

[FORD]

We used to have the same problem here. It it was driving over the state line to buy the good fireworks and those were illegal here. You mean to tell me Washington state was arresting people for bringing legal goods across state lines??? How the fuck did that hold up in court??

I don't know of anyone who was actually arrested for "tax dodging while shopping". I suspect it was more an intimidation factor ("Hey, we COULD pull you over for this shit, so don't do it!") than a lot of actual arrests. I just happened to be coming home from the Oregon Coast at the end of Turkey Day weekend a few years ago, saw the state patrol cars parked on the shoulder just north of the bridge and laughed at the silliness of it all. If they had pulled me over, all they would have found is a couple of bottles of Rogue Ale (http://www.rogue.com/) that I bought in Newport. :gulp:

[cadaverdog]

I don't understand why more pot heads don't grow their own if they can legally. Miracle Gro sells a hydroponics system with built in pumps, timers and a grow light. They also sell all the vitamins and nutrients you need to grow weed. If you follow the instructions on how to grow cannabis on the internet you can have buds in a couple of months. If you want to grow a bunch of plants and make sure they're all females you can grow one plant, make sure it's a female and clone it. It's a simple process.

[FORD]

I have the opposite of a "green thumb". I can't seem to grow anything.... vegetables... flowers.... even common house plants... without killing them. Doubt I would do any better with a cannabis plant. :(

[cadaverdog]

I have the opposite of a "green thumb". I can't seem to grow anything.... vegetables... flowers.... even common house plants... without killing them. Doubt I would do any better with a cannabis plant. :(
Cannabis is a weed. All you have to do is throw some seeds in a pot with some potting soil and water them on a regular basis. You can add Miracle Gro to the water once a week and super bloom when they start budding. If you're growing indoors you give them plenty of light 14 to 16 hours a day for the first couple months then cut back to 12 and that'll make em bud.

[Angel]

That's because you're Canadian and you were reading the speedometer in km/h :biggrin:
It was a 1972 car...no kmh, lol. We pulled over and rolled down the windows. Looked like a Cheech & Chong car with all the smoke coming out, lmao.

[Seshmeister]

I have the opposite of a "green thumb"

A brown thumb?

[Kristy]

I don't understand why more pot heads don't grow their own if they can legally.

Hey dufus, in Colorado they can - up to six plants.

[ZahZoo]

I'm not sure how widespread the practice is anymore. If you live in Vancouver, and it's a matter of merely driving over the bridge, then probably so. Anywhere else, then the high gas prices are probably going to negate any savings from not paying sales tax. Not to mention that a lot of people do their Xmas shopping on line now and don't bother with malls in either state.

One weekend a year in August, Arkansas has a "Tax Free" weekend where there's no sales tax on clothing and school supplies... I think I've finally convinced my wife that's it's stupid to go drive an hour+ to the nearest mall... battle near Christmas level shopping crowds... after gas and going out to eat somewhere we've spent far more than the $20-30 we saved on sales tax...

[cadaverdog]

A brown thumb?
Here in Cali most of the gardeners have brown thumbs and they're quite good at it. Mine's here right now doing busy work. I told him we didn't care if he just did what needed to be done and split but he insists on earning what we pay him. For $50 a month we really don't expect him to do much more than take care of the front lawn once a week. If he trims the rose bushes we usually give him a nice tip.

[Hardrock69]

In 1978, Coors Beer could not be bought in the state of Washington.

I had some friends in Tacoma who would drive to Idaho once a month in some 4-door road behomoth with a 4-body trunk (meaning huge trunk space), and they would load up on cases of Coors beer and bring them back to Tacoma.

I am sure it was more of a "let's go buy something that is illegal in our state" sort of thing, as that stuff is just pure Rocky Mountain piss water.

Personally, all I ask is not to be arrested for having it and smoking it. I don't need to try to sell it and become some small-time drug lord. That inpinges on the territory of the IRS...as that is the whole point of legalizing it (from a government point of view).....it is something that has guaranteed sales and can be taxed.

The Oregon plan is really smart in that they want the average price of pot at retail to be $140 an ounce.

Fuck.....that is a decent price.

Sure....market demands can raise or lower the price of certain varieties, but that is a great target for average price. I am reasonably sure that is the modern equivalent to the price of an ounce of Columbian Gold in 1978....which was $25.

The weed market in the NorthWest in the late 70s was awesome. Several varieties of hash, Thai Stick, Columbian Gold, Hawaiian....all could be found easy. I was in a band who used to play parties for a biker club south of Tacoma....we would play for 45 minutes....the president of the club would walk up and hand us a chunk of Lebanese Red hash the size of my fist and say "Take a break man!".

I had some other friends who got busted by the police that summer. They were selling pot out of their house. No, the police did not take their pot. They got busted for failure to pay taxes. So after that, when I bought a lid for $25, they actually gave me a receipt for $23 and some change plus a little over a buck for state tax.


The ability to actually walk into a store and choose from a wide selection of pot is science-fiction, man.

I think for sure the Colorado setup is the best of the two.
I think all that will happen from here on out is improvements on that model.
Oregon and Alaska will do it for sure. But then it used to be legal to possess up to an ounce until sometime around the turn of the millenium.

I am extremely surprised the State of California has not been the first to legalize it for all purposes.

Seriously, once the Federal ban is lifted, we are going to see a serious boom in the economy. Regardless of which model is better between the current two states, they ARE seen as experimental laboratories.

The last big boom in an emerging industry we saw was the advent of the Internet in the 90s.

But that was gradual. It was not the sort of thing like *BOOM* Aaaaaand THEY'RE OFF!

Suddenly the illegality is gone at midnight and you have an entire industry to create. Fortunately the medical pot industry gave the states something to base their recreational model on. Mainly it is a source of creating the supply to meet the demand. Tax revenue in the most recent months have doubled from when it was first legalized in Colorado.

This also is a boon for travel and tour industries.

You KNOW that touring bands love their shows in Colorado and Washington now, lol.

About 3 weeks to go. This election is going to see a vastly different landscape come out the other side.

[Kristy]

You KNOW that touring bands love their shows in Colorado and Washington now...

Too bad the majority of them are absolutely shit.