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Sgt Schultz
08-03-2004, 02:06 PM
"Dummies" don't fly fighter planes, get a degree in History, or a Masters in Business. Read on leftist weenies.

George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft that he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger. A number of sources have claimed that Bush sought service in the National Guard to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and that the F-102 was a safe choice because it was an obsolete aircraft that would never see any real combat. However, those perceptions turn out to be incorrect, as will be seen shortly.

The F-102 was a supersonic second generation fighter designed in the early 1950s for the US Air Force. The primary mission of the aircraft was to intercept columns of Soviet nuclear bombers attempting to reach targets in the US and destroy them with air-to-air missiles. The technologies incorporated into the aircraft were state-of-the-art for the day. The F-102 set many firsts, including the first all-weather delta-winged combat aircraft, the first fighter capable of maintaining supersonic speed in level flight, and the first interceptor to have an armament entirely of missiles. Among the many innovations incorporated into the design were the use of the area rule to reduce aerodynamic drag and an advanced electronic fire control system capable of guiding the aircraft to a target and automatically launching its missiles.

The F-102 made its first flight in 1953 and entered service with the Air Defense Command (ADC) in 1956. About 1,000 Delta Daggers were built, and although eventually superseded by the related F-106 Delta Dart, the F-102 remained one of the most important aircraft in the ADC through the mid-1960s. At its peak, the aircraft made up over half of the interceptors operated by the ADC and equipped 32 squadrons across the continental US. Additional squadrons were based in western Europe, the Pacific, and Alaska.

As the 1960s continued, many of these aircraft were transferred from the US Air Force to Air National Guard (ANG) units. By 1966, nearly 350 F-102s were being operated by ANG squadrons. A total of 23 ANG units across the US ultimately received the fighter, including squadrons in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.

One of the primary ANG units to receive the F-102 was the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) at Ellington Air National Guard Station, which operated the aircraft from 1965 through 1974. These planes were given responsibility for patrolling the Gulf Coast and intercepting Soviet Tu-95 bombers that regularly flew off the US shore while carrying a payload of nuclear weapons. The 111th was and still is part of the 147th Fighter Wing in Houston, Texas. It was here that George W. Bush was stationed following his enlistment in May 1968.

It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam at the very time Bush enlisted. In fact, F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of fighter combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.

These missions were also dangerous, given the risks inherent to low-level attacks against armed ground troops. A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents.

Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the S-3 is at 2.6, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-18 at 4.9, and the F-117 at 4.07. Even the AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in service today, has an accident rate of only 11.05 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.
After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.

Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."

As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972.

By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B used primarily for air defense patrols. Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service. In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975.

The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots where serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft whose pilots regularly risked their lives. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.

This is not to say that there exist no points of contention in Bush's record worthy of criticism. There are indeed some irregularities from April 1972 to May 1973 that indicate he may not have completed his responsibilities as a National Guardsman. However, these allegations have been fully investigated in the past and were found to lack credibility. Both the New York Times and the Boston Globe investigated Bush's military service and concluded that "Bush logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called 'weekend warriors.'"

While it is not our goal to compare and contrast the records of the candidates on this subject, the fact that the questioner cites John Kerry's military service makes us feel it necessary to comment. It is interesting to note that there are just as many, if not more, irregularities in Kerry's military record as there are in Bush's. Kerry can certainly be praised for some of the actions he performed while in the line of duty, but his record does contain some troubling portions as well. Not the least of these is his involvement in the controversial group Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) while he was still an active-duty member of the US Navy. Kerry's testimony before Congress as VVAW spokesman in 1971, during which he accused soldiers serving in Vietnam of being war criminals, was found to be based on largely falsifed information as documented by Wikipedia. The Boston Globe has also reported on troubling accusations regarding the circumstances surrounding Kerry's medals, particularly his first two purple hearts awarded for minor injuries that may even have been self-inflicted.

Nevertheless, the important point to remember is that one can find good and bad elements in virtually anyone's military history. If the military service of both George W. Bush and John Kerry is to be an issue during the upcoming election, then both records ought to be treated with balance and fairness rather than be subjected to double standards.

Fixed Wing Losses in Vietnam
F-4 Phantom 754
F-105 Thunderchief 397
A-4 Skyhawk 352
F-100 Super Saber 242
A-1 Skyraider 266
O-1 Bird Dog 185
F-8 Crusader 138
O-2 104
A-7 Corsair 99
OV-10 Bronco 64
C-130 Hercules 60
A-6 Intruder 59
B-57 Canberra 58
C-123 Provider 54
RF-101 Voodoo 38
RF-8 Crusdader 31
B-52 Stratofortress 31
RA-5 Vigilante 26
A-6 Intruder 25
T-28 Trojan 23
A-26 Invader 22
A-37 Dragonfly 22
C-47 Skytrain 21
C-7 Caribou 20
A-3 Skywarrior 20
AC-47 Gunship I 19
F-102 Delta Dagger 14
F-104 Starfighter 14
EB-66 Destroyer 14
F-111 Aardvark 11
OV-10 Bronco 10
TA-4 Skyhawk 10
F-5 Freedom Fighter 9
QU-22 9
OV-10 Bronco 7
A-7 Corsair 6
AC-130 Gunship II 6
S-2 Tracker 6
AC-119 Gunship III 5
EF-10 Skynight 5
P-2 Neptune 4
C-1 Trader 4
KC-130 Hercules 4
RF-4 Phantom 4
C-2 Greyhound 3
KC-135 Stratotanker 3
E-1 Tracer 3
C-141 Starlifter 2
EC-121 Bat Cat 2
HU-16 Albatross 2
E-2 Hawkeye 2
P-3 Orion 2
C-117 Skytrain 2
EA-6 Prowler 2
SR-71 Blackbird 2
KB-50 Superfortress 1
U-2 Dragon Lady 1
U-3 Blue Canoe 1
U-6 Beaver 1
U-10 Courier 1
C-47 Skytrain 1
EC-121 Warning Star 1
RF-8 Crusader 1
TF-9 Cougar 1

BigBadBrian
08-04-2004, 10:17 AM
Bump BOOM!!!!! :gun:

Satan
08-04-2004, 11:53 AM
Yeah..... Junior was a fighter pilot. And Reagan was a world war 2 vet. And John Wayne single handedly defeated the Injuns all by himself.

Any more myths you want to spin :rolleyes:

frenchie
08-04-2004, 11:55 AM
who is exactly georges bush?

Satan
08-04-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by frenchie
who is exactly georges bush?

George Bush Jr is the moronic son of the former President of the United States, George Bush Sr.

He's currently the temporary occupant of the White House, though he was appointed by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision, NOT elected as most Presidents are. The 5 judges, not coincidentally, were all appointed by his family's political machine, which has demonated the Republican party since the 1950's.

frenchie
08-04-2004, 12:07 PM
in france, we like georges bush jr very much.he makes us laugh a lot.euh......jacques chirac makes us laugh too. but terrorism don't make us laugh at all. is kerry funny too?

Sgt Schultz
08-04-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Satan
George Bush Jr is the moronic son of the former President of the United States, George Bush Sr.

He's currently the temporary occupant of the White House, though he was appointed by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision, NOT elected as most Presidents are. The 5 judges, not coincidentally, were all appointed by his family's political machine, which has demonated the Republican party since the 1950's.

Go to hell!

Oh wait...............

John Ashcroft
08-04-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by frenchie
in france, we like georges bush jr very much.he makes us laugh a lot.euh......jacques chirac makes us laugh too. but terrorism don't make us laugh at all. is kerry funny too?

Kerry is frightening. Laughable as a Senator, but frightening as a propective Commander in Chief.

thekmann
08-05-2004, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Satan
George Bush Jr is the moronic son of the former President of the United States, George Bush Sr.

He's currently the temporary occupant of the White House, though he was appointed by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision, NOT elected as most Presidents are. The 5 judges, not coincidentally, were all appointed by his family's political machine, which has demonated the Republican party since the 1950's.


You are soo full of crap FORD/Satan,

You just can't get over the fact that your BOY lost. You need to get your facts straight as well. The US Supreme Court ruled an OVERWHELMING majority 7-2 that the manual recount in Florida in 2000 was UNCONSTITUTIONAL! The later 5-4 ruling was in response to the fact that IF Florida's Supreme court and Legislature came up with a uniform method of recounting the Florida votes Statewide not just in the four democratic districts Al JR wanted, they could not accomplish it before the midnight deadline on the 18th of december set forth by the Florida state legislature prior to the election in november.
You can't change the rules after the fact just because they don't go your way PAL!

Get over it! George W. Bush is the rightfully elected President of these United States whether you like him or not. You have the right to dissent and disagree with him, hell you have the right to hate him thats part of being an American but please get over this bullshit about him not being elected by the people of this nation because he was. The popular vote doesn't mean squat with regard to the Presidential race. Whomever gets 270 electoral votes is our PRESIDENT period!


And just an FYI President Bush is NOT a Junior. In order to be a Jr you have to be named AFTER your father EXACTLY.

President Bush (41) George Herbert Walker Bush
President Bush (43) George Walker Bush

No one in his family or any friends have ever referred to him as Junior.

Now cheer up Dave, Maybe its that Washington State weather, always raining and dark and cloudy that keeps you in your funk.
:D

ELVIS
08-05-2004, 04:40 AM
No, it's his paranoid schizophrenia...

Sgt Schultz
08-05-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Satan
Yeah..... Junior was a fighter pilot. And Reagan was a world war 2 vet. And John Wayne single handedly defeated the Injuns all by himself.

Any more myths you want to spin :rolleyes:

Um, yes, Geroge W. Bush WAS a fighter pilot, are you disputing that? John Kerry was on a Swift Boat in Vietnam for 4 months.

Since you obviously didn't read the article but still commented on it I'll give you a few highlights.

"pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam at the very time Bush enlisted. In fact, F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962."

"F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft."

"the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. "

"Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft whose pilots regularly risked their lives. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out. "

"Both the New York Times and the Boston Globe investigated Bush's military service and concluded that "Bush logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called 'weekend warriors.'" "

FORD
08-05-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
Um, yes, Geroge W. Bush WAS a fighter pilot, are you disputing that? John Kerry was on a Swift Boat in Vietnam for 4 months.



And a bunch of guys who were on that Swift Boat with Kerry showed up in Boston to support him.

And there's a couple right wingers who have a "I hate Kerry"website out there, who despite themselves, acknowledge the fact that Kerry was in Vietnam.

On the other hand, there is not a single person who has ever come forward to say they personally witnessed George Bush Jr pilot an F-102 or any other plane.

And somehow, I don't think he's going to be able to produce a dozen of them by the end of the month for his convention. :D

Sgt Schultz
08-05-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by FORD
And a bunch of guys who were on that Swift Boat with Kerry showed up in Boston to support him.

And there's a couple right wingers who have a "I hate Kerry"website out there, who despite themselves, acknowledge the fact that Kerry was in Vietnam.

On the other hand, there is not a single person who has ever come forward to say they personally witnessed George Bush Jr pilot an F-102 or any other plane.

And somehow, I don't think he's going to be able to produce a dozen of them by the end of the month for his convention. :D

Right, and most of his swift boat buddies are NOT supporting his candidacy. No one disputes Kerry was in Vietnam.

"Not a single person"? This is flat out false. From the article you still have not read apparently,

"Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required."

"Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.

Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."

"As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972. "

Sgt Schultz
08-05-2004, 11:34 AM
http://photoshop.superdownloads.net/uploads/dutysirajokesm.jpg