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knuckleboner
08-16-2004, 09:25 PM
in a washington post editorial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58315-2004Aug11.html), it's stated that some of the swift boat veterans for truth who are maligning kerry today, lauded him back then.

who said this:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed."

if you guessed one of the guys who now says kerry is unfit to lead, you're correct.

the guy was so memorably bad that they remember his 4 month stint, 30 years later, yet at the time, they weren't clear?

john kerry may or may not have lied about his vietnam service. but it seems to me some of these swift boat veterans for truth certainly have. whether it was back in 1969 when they commended kerry, or whether it's today...

(since it's an editorial, there's no sources cited for the 1969 quotes, commendations,etc. of the men. it's certainly possible that they are incorrect. however, absent any denials, or proof to the contrary, i'm going to assume the post did its job researching. but take it with a grain of salt if you want.)



Swift Boat Smears
Thursday, August 12, 2004; Page A22


DEMOCRATIC nominee John F. Kerry has made his tour of duty in Vietnam -- a stint in which he earned three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star -- a centerpiece of his presidential campaign. To the extent, then, that there are legitimate questions about Mr. Kerry's behavior -- either in Vietnam or back home as a prominent antiwar activist -- those are fair game. Mr. Kerry's four-plus months in Vietnam made for an unusually short tour. He used his third Purple Heart to go home early, and his wounds were relatively superficial. Some veterans remain understandably bitter about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements; indeed, the candidate himself has said he would rephrase some of his more cutting accusations about U.S. troops committing war crimes.

But a new assault on Mr. Kerry -- in an ad by a group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and in a new book -- crosses the line in branding Mr. Kerry a coward and a liar. This smear is contradicted by Mr. Kerry's crew mates, undercut by the previous statements of some of those now making the charges and tainted by the chief source of its funding: Republican activists dedicated to defeating Mr. Kerry in November.

"John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam," says George Elliott, Mr. Kerry's former commanding officer. But it was then-Lt. Cmdr. Elliott who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver and Bronze stars, commending him as "calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire." In a 1969 evaluation Mr. Elliott had this to say: "In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed."

"I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury," says Dr. Louis Letson. Dr. Letson isn't listed on Mr. Kerry's medical record at the time. That doesn't disprove his claim to have treated Mr. Kerry, who received a superficial shrapnel injury to his arm. But neither does the account of Dr. Letson or others about the incident indicate that Mr. Kerry was lying. Mr. Kerry's wound doesn't seem to have amounted to much, but he didn't claim it did -- nor does that make him ineligible for a Purple Heart.

The most potentially damning accusation in the ad concerns the the best-known episode of Mr. Kerry's service, in which he saved the life of Jim Rassmann after the Special Forces officer was blown off Mr. Kerry's Swift boat by a mine explosion. Three people quoted in the ad, all of whom say they were present that day, March 13, 1969, assert that Mr. Kerry ordered his craft to flee the danger and turned around to rescue Mr. Rassmann only after the shooting stopped. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star . . . I know, I was there, I saw what happened," says Van O'Dell, a retired Navy enlisted man. "His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day," says Jack Chenoweth, who commanded a different Swift boat. "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," says Larry Thurlow, another Swift boat commander.

If accurate, this would demolish a central part of the picture of Mr. Kerry as Vietnam hero. But the weight of the evidence supports Mr. Kerry. Mr. Rassmann, having had no contact with Mr. Kerry for the previous 35 years, came forward during the primaries to tell the story of how Mr. Kerry, braving enemy fire and with an injured arm, pulled him back on board. "John came up to the bow, and I thought he was going to get killed because he was so exposed," Mr. Rassmann recalled. Other surviving crew mates corroborate that account. "I was there," crew mate Del Sandusky told CNN. "I saw the bullets skimming across the water. I saw the firefight gun flashes from the jungle. I know the firefight and the ambush we were in." Another crew mate, James Wasser, told ABC: "What boat were you riding on? Because you weren't there -- we were."

It's also relevant to know who's underwriting this advertising campaign. The biggest single donor so far to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth isn't a Swift boat veteran but one of the leading Republican donors in Texas. Houston builder Bob J. Perry gave the group $100,000, accounting for the bulk of the $158,000 in receipts it has reported. It's fair to ask whether truth is at the top of this group's agenda.

knuckleboner
08-19-2004, 03:59 PM
well here's an interesting development:

one of the guys who are a part of the book claiming kerry lied apparently does speak from experience. he got his OWN bronze star...for the very same "battle" (or lack thereof) that kerry did. despite the fact that he claims to have seen no bullets flying around, his citation states otherwise.

conveniently, the guy lost his citation 20 years ago, though, apparently, he never read it. since he now says:

"My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

hmm...although, while i might doubt that he NEVER read his own citation, at least he has a good excuse for why the "under fire" language got there in the 1st place: kerry did it.


so, are these guys believable? anyone?

source=washington post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html)



Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01


Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat. "I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.




© 2004 The Washington Post Company

Big Train
08-19-2004, 04:56 PM
I think they are. He also says (I believe in that same article) that he did not fill out the paperwork for his citation.

The only way to settle this is for all of the 256 people and Kerry to release all of their records and then cross check them all. And see who wrote the citations as well, and cross reference that (which may end up being Kerry himself, which is why he doesn't want to release them in the first place).

I doubt everyone, on both sides, remembers or has "Seared" everything that went on. The only way is to check everybodys story out to flush out the truth.

Sgt Schultz
08-19-2004, 04:58 PM
Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

knuckleboner
08-19-2004, 05:06 PM
i hear you. they were in how many battles? tough to remember individual ones, to the exact detail.



but what are the odds the guy got a bronze star and the citiation, had the citation for about 10 years and then lost it, never having read it?

i mean, given his attitude now, which, if true, is certainly commendable, one would think that if he'd have ever read his citation awarding him a medal for something he really didn't do, he'd have mentioned it earlier.

knuckleboner
08-19-2004, 05:10 PM
yeah, Sgt., i know thurlow's response. it seems fine.

my only question remains; the account was written on his citation. he's said he lost the citiation (meaning he at one point had it in his possession). so did he never, once read the citation?

it's not inconceivable, i suppose. but i would think it's a little unlikely.

BigBadBrian
08-19-2004, 05:16 PM
How many people's words against Kerry's and his pals? Who is lying here? It does seem to be un-nerving ole John-boy a tad bit, doesn't it. He even thinks the President needs to be critical of what these fellas have said. What a little wuss. Maybe he should apologize for everything for everything Moveon.org and all the other Communist/Socialist sites say about Bush. :gulp:

knuckleboner
08-19-2004, 05:28 PM
i thought it was mccain that wanted bush to apologize...;)

but come on BBB, is a citation something you just ignore? how likely is it that the guy never read it?



and yes, somebody's either lying or grossly mistaken. it's well established that both rassmussen and thurlow were there. rassmussen swears he was under fire. thurlow swears he wasn't. somebody's wrong.

now, i'll admit, those people stumping for kerry do have an incentive to glorify it; not a bad thing to have a president owe you. however, that, alone, isn't quite enough to make me think they're lying.

the (admittingly paltry and incomplete) evidence i've seen thus far leads me to believe that it might not've been firebase gloria, but there was at least some level of hostile fire at that occasion.

DLR'sCock
08-19-2004, 05:40 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers to Enemy Fire
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post

Thursday August 19 2004

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat. "I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.


-------

BigBadBrian
08-20-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by DLR'sCock

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.



Quite simply, Thurlow and Kerry's award citations were written by different people. It's really quite that simple. I used to write rough drafts of award citations myself. Kerry wrote his own. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Besides, this does not take into account all of the other swifties who have aligned against Lurch.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 11:38 AM
yeah, BBB, but thurlow's own citiation mentioned he was under fire...


a good article; seems relatively fair.

from time.com (http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,686045,00.html?cnn=yes)

everyone still sure that the swift boat veterans for truth are the only credible source?


Sunday, Aug. 22, 2004
Kerry In Combat: Setting The Record Straight
By MITCH FRANK
John Kerry offers his service in Vietnam as proof that he can keep America safe. But in two TV ads and a best-selling book, an anti-Kerry group has accused the Senator of dishonesty and cowardice during the war. Kerry hit back last week, accusing Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT) of doing the President's dirty work. The Bush campaign denies a connection. SBVT's biggest donor is Houston developer Bob Perry, who has given more than $4 million to Republicans, including Bush, and is a close friend of Bush adviser Karl Rove's. Of SBVT's 254 members, only one served on a boat Kerry commanded; Kerry's 10 other crewmates back him. Some group members say their real beef with Kerry is his antiwar activism, during which he testified to the Senate that "war crimes" by U.S. soldiers were common. He now says some of his remarks were excessive. Here's a look at the group's allegations.

THE CHARGE Kerry lied to get the first of three Purple Hearts. SBVT alleges that the wound was a minor, self-inflicted scratch. Kerry says on Dec. 2, 1968, he and his two crewmates that night fired on men on a riverbank. It's unclear if someone fired back, but shrapnel hit Kerry's arm. Louis Letson, a medical officer at the time, says that he treated Kerry's wound and that it was too small to justify a medal. William Schacte Jr. says he was on the boat that night and there was no enemy fire; he says Kerry was injured by a grenade Kerry himself launched.


THE EVIDENCE Kerry's medical record was signed not by Letson but by corpsman J.C. Carreon. Letson claims Carreon routinely signed forms for him. Letson told the Los Angeles Times he heard the wound was self-inflicted thirdhand — from his subordinates, who heard it from Kerry's two crewmates. They deny saying that and insist Schacte wasn't on the boat that night. The military grants a Purple Heart for any wound requiring medical attention that was inflicted during action against the enemy.

THE CHARGE Kerry lied to win his Silver Star. SBVT charges that Kerry exaggerated his role in a battle on Feb. 28, 1969. In charge of a three-boat patrol that was ambushed, Kerry ordered the boats to beach in front of their attackers and engage them head on. Kerry's boat was providing cover when a rocket hit it. Kerry jumped ashore to chase a Viet Cong with a rocket launcher and killed him. SBVT says Kerry simply shot a wounded teenager in the back. Former Lieut. Commander George Elliott, Kerry's direct superior, said in a recent affidavit that he wouldn't have awarded Kerry a Silver Star if he had known the details.

THE EVIDENCE Kerry's crewmates say the boat was in clear danger. Besides, Kerry won the medal for leadership during the whole battle, and Elliott describes the entire episode in the citation he wrote. Elliott later told the Boston Globe he had made a terrible mistake in signing the affidavit. Then he signed a new affidavit standing behind the first. When newspapers questioned Kerry's account in 1996, Elliott went to Boston to uphold it. The commander of one of the other two boats, Chicago Tribune editor William Rood, corroborated Kerry's story last week.

THE CHARGE Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. On March 13, 1969, five swift boats were patrolling the Bay Hap River when a mine detonated under one of them. Kerry and Green Beret Jim Rassmann, aboard other boats, claim gunfire started coming from the riverbank. After another blast knocked Rassmann overboard, Kerry pulled him onto his boat. Three members of SBVT, including Larry Thurlow, insist that there was no gunfire and that Kerry initially fled the scene, returning to help Rassmann only when it was clear there was no danger.

THE EVIDENCE The Navy also awarded Thurlow a Bronze Star that day, and his citation, signed by Elliott and uncovered by the Washington Post, reads, "All the boats came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." A separate damage report mentions three bullet holes in Thurlow's boat.

THE CHARGE Kerry lied about spending Christmas Eve 1968 in Cambodia. In 1979 and 1986, Kerry recounted a mission in which he and his crew boated into neutral Cambodia. The Pentagon said at the time that Vietnam's neighbor was off limits, and Kerry said his mission was proof of Richard Nixon's dishonesty. Steven Gardner, the sole member of Kerry's crew to join the SBVT, says their boat was 50 miles from the Cambodian border that day.

THE EVIDENCE Kerry has no proof he entered Cambodia, though other U.S. forces certainly did. Two crew members have said the boat was near the border. Records show that the boat was about 50 miles south of Cambodia that morning. Kerry and his crew headed upriver and could have been at the border in two hours. On Christmas Eve, Nixon was President-elect; he would not be in the White House for a month. A Kerry campaign spokesman now says that Kerry might not have been in Cambodia that night but that he definitely went there on a mission.




Copyright © 2004 Time Inc. All rights reserved.

lucky wilbury
08-26-2004, 11:53 AM
but kerry wrote those reports. i'm sure he tweaked them to make himself look good. the swifts guys make good points though. kerry's report says they were under fire for 3000 meters which is about the length of cemetery ridge at gettysburg. with that much fire you would have way more then 3 bullet holes in a boat which the guy says were from the day before. kerrys report doesn't add up either because they were there or over an hour helping out the three boat. again that much fire someone would have had to have been hit. just by sheer luck. but lets get real though those guys are probably pissed because kerry and the dnc'ers have all stated that all the boats took off and left that one guy behind and the "hero" kerry went back for him which isn't he case. kerry took off they didn't.

anyone see one of the swift guys on scarbourho country the other night? he was a guy from kerrys own boat and he said kerry made up a report about killing 4 vc in a sampan. he says it never happen. he said the only people who were killed were an old man and a boy,but according to kerry it was an old man,a boy and 4 vc. the guy said that that never happen and he said he should know because he was the only one who fired and he killed the boy and the man and he says it's haunted him. he says there were no vc but kerrys report says there were.

lucky wilbury
08-26-2004, 11:59 AM
forgot to add i'm sure anyfire heard that day was out going fire. so when kerrys people say they heard fire it was most likely out going from the other 4 boats making sure it wasen't an ambush and since kerry took off and was down river i sure they thought they were getting shot out by vc and didn't relize it was out going fire from the other 4 boats.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 12:06 PM
kerry wrote those reports according to the swift boat veterans (only one of whom served on kerry's vote.) the other 10 members of kerry's boat back his claims.

and even if kerry wrote his own report, why did thurlow just now realize that his OWN citation for his own bronze star for the mine incident claim there was enemy fire?

and what about kerry's superior, lt. cmdr. elliot not once, but twice writing an account of the incident, including backing up kerry's story in 1996? i suppose he used due dilegence now to claim it was false, but just blinding when along with the existing record in 1996? doesn't that at the very least call his current assertions into question?

lucky wilbury
08-26-2004, 12:11 PM
see my thread on reports and what kerry said then

lucky wilbury
08-26-2004, 12:14 PM
and that guys medal was based on kerrys report and he said he thought it was for saving the three boat and that if he got it because the were under fire he said he would give the medla back. the inncident were talking about here more people back the swift guys. i think the numbers are at 11-6 for the swirft guys. kerrys 4 guys on his boat + rassman and the sift guys got their guys from all the other boats

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 01:01 PM
i'm telling you, i smell a rat with these guys. i don't know enough to call them outright liars. and i'll acknowledge that they could be telling the truth.

but so could the tribune editor. and the guy who kerry "saved" and the other 9 members of kerry's boat.

i mean, SOMEBODY's either lying, or forgetful. period.




and yes, i read your article. kerry wrote some reports, perhaps (though its doesn't say for certain) he wrote the reports for his medals.

it still doesn't answer why thurlow went at least a decade before he lost his own citiation, having never read it, or knowing exactly what he got his own bronze star for.

if kerry writing his own report which lead to his medal is at least somewhat suspect (though, not damning, in and of itself), which i'll agree, then surely thurlow never knowing (or if he knew, never questioning) his own citiation is equally suspect.

Big Train
08-26-2004, 01:10 PM
So let's say your right about Thurlow.Let's say he knew and wanted to just let dead dogs lay. What about the other 255 people? Even if one of them were proven to be uncredible, there are still 255 people who saw the same thing.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 01:29 PM
actually, there aren't. only 1 of the guys was on kerry's boat. and many of the guys weren't in combat with kerry, even on other boats. like lt. cmdr. elliot.

the swift boat veterans for truth aren't 256 people who each saw with their own eyes that kerry didn't earn his medals.

mind you, some did see with their own eyes. and some of kerry's supporters did, too.


i'm not so much saying that the veterans for truth are definitely lying about kerry. i just think that there's enough evidence out there to call their own stories into question, at least as much as they call kerry's into.

BigBadBrian
08-26-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by knuckleboner
actually, there aren't. only 1 of the guys was on kerry's boat. and many of the guys weren't in combat with kerry, even on other boats. like lt. cmdr. elliot.

the swift boat veterans for truth aren't 256 people who each saw with their own eyes that kerry didn't earn his medals.

mind you, some did see with their own eyes. and some of kerry's supporters did, too.




The problem with the men on Kerry's boat is that they were all subordinate to Kerry. This means they wouldn't know if he was obeying orders or not.

Swift boats were not lone rangers. They operate in flotillas of four or five crafts and "hunted" together. It is the charge of the men of these other boats that operated with Kerry, many of them commanding officers of swift boats, that Kerry had problems obeying orders and operating as a unit.

All this crap about what went on in the river on that rescue that day is just "he said she said" as far as I'm concerned.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 03:05 PM
whether or not kerry's obeying orders doesn't really have a bearing on some of the issues, like whether or not kerry deserved the bronze medal.

however, at least one other boat commander, william rood, stated that kerry did work as a unit.

mind you, i agree, it's definitely a he-said/she-said kind of issue. and most likely, neither side is 100% correct.

Warham
08-26-2004, 03:39 PM
We do know that Kerry was a traitor to his fellow vets after he came back, though.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 03:49 PM
that's a seperate issue.

(yet still debatable...)

Warham
08-26-2004, 03:52 PM
...

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 03:59 PM
again, whatever kerry did afterwards, has little to no bearing on whether or not the swift boat veterans for truth, or john kerry and his supporters, are telling the truth about whether kerry deserved his medals.

Warham
08-26-2004, 04:01 PM
Kerry might have deserved his medals, but he hasn't done anything to deserve being President.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 04:24 PM
fair enough, dude. fair enough.

Warham
08-26-2004, 04:34 PM
Even without all this Vietnam stuff, he still hasn't done anything with his 20 years in the Senate.

lucky wilbury
08-26-2004, 06:06 PM
kerry not releasing his papers should also tell you something. he won't release all his paper and the ones that are out there are only veiwable through the web and haven't been look at idpendantly by anyone so far.

BigBadBrian
08-26-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by knuckleboner
whether or not kerry's obeying orders doesn't really have a bearing on some of the issues, like whether or not kerry deserved the bronze medal.

however, at least one other boat commander, william rood, stated that kerry did work as a unit.

mind you, i agree, it's definitely a he-said/she-said kind of issue. and most likely, neither side is 100% correct.

I've done quite a bit of reading on this issue. Nobody in Vietnam put theirselves in for a Purple Heart...except for a well-known Senator who now happens to be running for President. There are also countless cases of men returning to their units to complete their tour no matter how many times they were wounded. Kerry left after five months. He was LOOKING to get his ticket punched and get out of there. I think that's also where a lot of the anger lies with a lot of these veterans.

knuckleboner
08-26-2004, 11:27 PM
agreed. i can definitely see why many vets are upset with him.

that's fine. it's the specific, no-enemy-fired-on-him critiques that i question. sure, they might be telling the truth. but there's definitely enough evidence to put their own criticisms into doubt.

my own personal opinion at this point is that they took their (quite possibly justified) problems with kerry's service and post-service efforts and then leveled charges at every point, embellished or not.

Warham
08-27-2004, 08:02 AM
Kerry is behind Bush 55%-38% now among vets.