Ted Nugent [Archive] - The Diamond David Lee Roth Army

Panamark

08-26-2004, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
Are you calling me names? :D

NO!

That was a broader reference to the anticipated backlash.

It makes me feel better to read that "THE NUGE" eats or
donates some of the defenceless animals he kills.

However, I have read of more than one occasion of "THE NUGE"
killing for the sake of "FUN" So the "THE NUGE" is now officially
"THE CUNT"

And Yankeerose, the explanation of recognizing intelligence
in animals makes his actions even worse.

Go back in time when mankind had to hunt to stay alive,
its a kill that was necessary to stay alive. And something
an ex country boy (myself) understands and appreciates
as part of the necessity of life.. But that was literally life
or death for man !!!

But dont give me that shit in relation to "THE NUGE". That
fucker has more than enough money to buy food, he doesnt
have to kill animals. He does so because he enjoys killing
a living creature. How do you defend such actions ? Easy,
you just reword it to say "The thrill of the hunt"

Case closed, your honor...

(But I do feel better to know that some proportion of the innocent creatures
he slaughters, are not just left to decay at the point of the murder)

Hey "THE NUGE" how about taking out a few tin cans or clay pigeons ?
Oh yeah, they are not living creatures (my bad)

Jano

08-26-2004, 08:34 AM

Ted nugent was my first concert back in 1980,scream dream's tour what a great show.Pat Travers was the opening and Girls with Phil collens i think, just before he joigned Def Leppard!

jacksmar

08-26-2004, 09:03 AM

Ted rocks.
Those that don’t understand the moment of truth for a trophy buck, never will.

If some of our teenage thrill seeker really want to go out and get a thrill.
Let them go up into the north west and let them tangle with a Grizzly bear
or Polar bear or brown bear and get that effect that will cleanse the soul. Fred Bear

Big Troubles

08-26-2004, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Panamark
NO!

That was a broader reference to the anticipated backlash.

It makes me feel better to read that "THE NUGE" eats or
donates some of the defenceless animals he kills.

However, I have read of more than one occasion of "THE NUGE"
killing for the sake of "FUN" So the "THE NUGE" is now officially
"THE CUNT"

And Yankeerose, the explanation of recognizing intelligence
in animals makes his actions even worse.

Go back in time when mankind had to hunt to stay alive,
its a kill that was necessary to stay alive. And something
an ex country boy (myself) understands and appreciates
as part of the necessity of life.. But that was literally life
or death for man !!!

But dont give me that shit in relation to "THE NUGE". That
fucker has more than enough money to buy food, he doesnt
have to kill animals. He does so because he enjoys killing
a living creature. How do you defend such actions ? Easy,
you just reword it to say "The thrill of the hunt"

Case closed, your honor...

(But I do feel better to know that some proportion of the innocent creatures
he slaughters, are not just left to decay at the point of the murder)

Hey "THE NUGE" how about taking out a few tin cans or clay pigeons ?
Oh yeah, they are not living creatures (my bad)

You are one angry Aussie. But that was well said. I am not a gun lover or weapons lover of any kind. I hate killing animals, unless NEEDED for survival- I went camping a few weekends ago, and someone with me brought a pellet gun. (power of a .22) He shot everything in sight. Trees. Bottles, bottlecaps, cans, tried for birds, he shot into the air, staright up, and even shot a fish. A fucking fish?! Guns in the wrong hands= morons and moronic irreversable, regrettable situations. Im on the other side of the spectrum. ;) But as for the "Nuge", he's still a good rock n roller. :D Next time he goes cunting, lets give the animals a gun and call it a real sport. Watch how fat Teddy runs out of that bush!

I reported your bad behavoir Pana. :D I figured I owed you one from a LONG time ago.

SNIPER

08-26-2004, 09:38 AM

Oh yeah, Ted jams at Hagar shows all the time. Doesnt that make him a sheep?

Panamark

08-26-2004, 09:38 AM

Ah ! I understand now. You fucking rapist !! ;)

I love the notion of the animal having defence.
That fooking rocks.. In fact we should genetically engineer
animals that can kill a human from hundreds of yards away
with a poisonous dart or some shit, then let "the hunters"
loose in the bush with them..
An animal that can sense and smell a human from a long
distance....

Equal terms. Go hunting after that YOU FUCKING COWARDS !

"THE NUGE" sucks........

Sorry, but its true.... Ive heard his music too.. And its Crap..
NUGE fans, come out, come out wherever you are !
Im here..

Panamark

08-26-2004, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by jacksmar
Ted rocks.
Those that don’t understand the moment of truth for a trophy buck, never will.

If some of our teenage thrill seeker really want to go out and get a thrill.
Let them go up into the north west and let them tangle with a Grizzly bear
or Polar bear or brown bear and get that effect that will cleanse the soul. Fred Bear

Yes, Ive had the moment of truth, drank the blood. Ive shot wild pigs, creatures that at least had a minute chance of causing some damage to me in their desperate chase to save their own lives. Before I blew
their brains with a 303 rifle..... But one day (after much killing, I had
my moment of truth)

The moment of truth to me was killing sucks. You say I will never
understand this ? You are fucking right.....

Promise me you will at least honor the animal and feed your
family. Dont let it rot where you murdered it. Better still, shoot
tin cans and spend $5 to buy some steaks from your local
supermarket....

Live and let Live..... MOTHERFUCKERS !

Panamark

08-26-2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by SNIPER
Oh yeah, Ted jams at Hagar shows all the time. Doesnt that make him a sheep?

So Ted jams with Spammy too ???

Oh yeah... he is great

ashstralia

08-26-2004, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by jacksmar
Ted rocks.
Those that don’t understand the moment of truth for a trophy buck, never will.

If some of our teenage thrill seeker really want to go out and get a thrill.
Let them go up into the north west and let them tangle with a Grizzly bear
or Polar bear or brown bear and get that effect that will cleanse the soul. Fred Bear

sorry jacksmar,
but you're a fucking idiot. 'trophy kill'?
you're fucking kidding.
if you want a thrill, pal, play
rugby league football.

i have to agree w/ panamark
on this one, and it's not cause we're
countrymen. we grew up hunting, but we
choose not to. state of the art firepower
against animals is wimpy.

ted nugent is a no talent hack, a redneck pig,
a fuckwit. a waste of oxygen. anyone who tolerates
his ridiculous excuse for 'music' is a dickhead.
i'll challenge him to a bareknuckle.

no more votes for me!!

ashstralia

08-26-2004, 11:15 AM

btw, i'm a super middleweight
i'd do him in 2 rounds.....

TLR

08-26-2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Panamark
Yes, Ive had the moment of truth, drank the blood. Ive shot wild pigs, creatures that at least had a minute chance of causing some damage to me in their desperate chase to save their own lives. Before I blew
their brains with a 303 rifle..... But one day (after much killing, I had
my moment of truth)

The moment of truth to me was killing sucks. You say I will never
understand this ? You are fucking right.....

Promise me you will at least honor the animal and feed your
family. Dont let it rot where you murdered it. Better still, shoot
tin cans and spend $5 to buy some steaks from your local
supermarket....

Live and let Live..... MOTHERFUCKERS !

Panamark...

This is the first time since I've been here that I believe I disagree with you on something. What is the difference if I go into the woods and kill an animal and put it in my freezer to consumer at a later date...or...I go into the grocery store and buy a steak for dinner? The beef that I would be eating didn't arrive there because the cow just fell over and died one day while happily chewing it's cud, you know! Those animals are KILLED as well. I know, I know...you will probably say they are raised for that purpose. I say, what is the difference? Either way, to me at least, it's an animal that was killed so I could eat it to survive.

As for someone who would shoot an animal and leave it where it dropped to rot...well, that person is not a 'hunter' in any sense of the word. That's a senseless killing. I have no time for that type and cannot be grouped into their category, either. That's a defenseless action. Period. I don't subscribe to that theory. However, I will head into the woods in the near future in pursuit of yet another deer for my freezer (and it won't be with 'state of the art firepower' as ashstralia called it...it will be with a bow where my effective range ends at 30 yards...90 feet...hardly hi-tech).

It's an interesting debate where people are fairly polarized at opposite ends of the spectrum. There isn't much middle ground to this issue...

Panamark

08-26-2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by TLR
Panamark...

This is the first time since I've been here that I believe I disagree with you on something. What is the difference if I go into the woods and kill an animal and put it in my freezer to consumer at a later date...or...I go into the grocery store and buy a steak for dinner? The beef that I would be eating didn't arrive there because the cow just fell over and died one day while happily chewing it's cud, you know! Those animals are KILLED as well. I know, I know...you will probably say they are raised for that purpose. I say, what is the difference? Either way, to me at least, it's an animal that was killed so I could eat it to survive.

As for someone who would shoot an animal and leave it where it dropped to rot...well, that person is not a 'hunter' in any sense of the word. That's a senseless killing. I have no time for that type and cannot be grouped into their category, either. That's a defenseless action. Period. I don't subscribe to that theory. However, I will head into the woods in the near future in pursuit of yet another deer for my freezer (and it won't be with 'state of the art firepower' as ashstralia called it...it will be with a bow where my effective range ends at 30 yards...90 feet...hardly hi-tech).

It's an interesting debate where people are fairly polarized at opposite ends of the spectrum. There isn't much middle ground to this issue...

TLR,

If you genuinely live off the land, and hunt to support your family. I have no problem with this. I said this previously.

I have problems with millionaires who can easily afford food, yet
decide to take the defencless lives of animals. Bloodsport, unless
for legitimate reasons is totally fucked up. Thats my point. I know
"THE NUGE" is into that shit. Dont worry, we have our share of redneck
fuckwit hunters that go outback and kill for the sake of killing.
Its an evil thing.

But to genuinely provide food for your family, I totally understand this.

To get your dick hard firing high tech rifles, please, tin cans and other non-living targets are sufficient to display your accuracy and prowess.

TLR

08-26-2004, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Panamark
TLR,

If you genuinely live off the land, and hunt to support your family. I have no problem with this. I said this previously.

I have problems with millionaires who can easily afford food, yet
decide to take the defencless lives of animals. Bloodsport, unless
for legitimate reasons is totally fucked up. Thats my point. I know
"THE NUGE" is into that shit. Dont worry, we have our share of redneck
fuckwit hunters that go outback and kill for the sake of killing.
Its an evil thing.

But to genuinely provide food for your family, I totally understand this.

To get your dick hard firing high tech rifles, please, tin cans and other non-living targets are sufficient to display your accuracy and prowess.

Ok, cool...we're pretty much on the same page again, I think...

I can't tolerate people who kill just for the sake of killing...I am not one of the people who assigns human emotions to a whitetail deer, a wild boar, etc...but, killing them just to kill them is senseless, at best...

Rebel

08-26-2004, 10:07 PM

Interesting discussion guys. I don't condone killing for sport, but I think killing a deer with a bow and arrow or a rifle is much more humane than killing a cow with a damn bolt gun.

If any of you have ever acutally been to a processing plant, you know what I'm talking about.

Big Troubles

08-26-2004, 10:49 PM

Ive been to one in Ontario and it isn't pretty, you're right. But the point is, Does he HAVE to kill it for food or is it sport? Answer is, he is rich and killing living creatures for the fuck of it. You dont find it a bit twisted? Just the fact that we kill Deer, Moose and Bear is sad, because everyone knows that a hamburger or T Bone from a cow is 10x better. IMO. Pig or Moose? lol Pass me the bacon. Killing is killing, but we lost our guidance of ration a bit. We eat, and survive off of vegetables and fish. Thats it. That is all that is necassary to live. Beyond that, its a sport and thrill or its a gorge on tastey hams & greasy chickens. We need some sort of boundry for what is humane and what is not. Because if everyone had a gun and followed no boundries; we'd have more problems than running out of game to eat.

LOL That was the thought of the day. ;)

YankeeRose

08-26-2004, 11:10 PM

Just because he can afford to buy the best doesn't mean he has to. I'm not saying the man's perfect, but I will defend his right to hunt for food to feed his family. Why should he be lazy and just buy it when he enjoys all the fresh air, exercise, and the satisfaction of seeing his family consuming a meal he provided for them. People can defend themselves, which makes them predictable. Animals are completely unpredictable, making them a much harder target. One must work harder to outwit an animal, therefore, the victory means more simply by virtue of having had to earn it. As for the "high-tech weaponry"...almost all of the time, THE NUGE hunts with a bow and arrow.
I love you PanaMark, you know that, but I disagree with you on this one. The fact that he's rich is besides the point...Things that you earn mean more than things that you just buy. It's a spoiled and somewhat lazy point of view that dictates buying instead of earning.

moose

08-26-2004, 11:32 PM

This is war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First and foremost BT yer a hypocrite, guess fishing is a lot better than shooting a Moose/Bear/Deer/ Turkey? And waht was that you said about MOOSE steaks a while ago?
This coming from a guy who lives in a town where 90% of the people hunt and fish.
First let me start off by saying that I used to like The Whackmaster, until I found out that he is a friend of spams and that he plays/opens up for the wabo.........
Nuff said. Now to the topic at hand.
The Nug does not KILL for sport. Everything he HARVESTS is used and I mean everything. He is outspoken about his love for the hunt and promotes it as best as he can do you honestly think that he would do anything wrong or unorthodox? No he won't he is too smart of a man.
I am the same way. You see if I don't eat it, guess what you fuckin misinformed assholes, I DON"T KILL IT(bow/rifle) only 1% of the hunting community are BEERDRINKING POACHERS
I've been hunting for 20yrs, and to this day I respect wildlife the same way I did when I was a kid growing up. I have also passed this tradition on to my kids the same way my Dad did to me.
I spend countless hours in the bush HELPING wildlife(putting out feed in the winter, cutting trees for new growth, cleaning streams and river beds and the list goes on).
What do you fuckin assholes do when ti comes time to helping wildlife....I'll tell you NOTHING.
You sit behind computers bitching and complaining about us MEN AND WOMEN who KILL, etc etc.
So until you actually help out with the conservation end of things shut yer FUCKIN TRAPS before I let loose a TEKAN Mechanical into your fat rumps.
Oh and buy the way WILD MEAT is a lot better than that hormone/steriod/growth agent crap you call meat!!!!!!!!
Tools!

tobinentinc

08-26-2004, 11:36 PM

All my hunting friends eat what they kill. Moose is right only a tiny percent of hunters kill for sport.

moose

08-26-2004, 11:39 PM

And before I forget I still like the Nug's stuff.
Stranglehold-Classic!

Rebel

08-27-2004, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
Ive been to one in Ontario and it isn't pretty, you're right. But the point is, Does he HAVE to kill it for food or is it sport? Answer is, he is rich and killing living creatures for the fuck of it. You dont find it a bit twisted? Just the fact that we kill Deer, Moose and Bear is sad, because everyone knows that a hamburger or T Bone from a cow is 10x better. IMO. Pig or Moose? lol Pass me the bacon. Killing is killing, but we lost our guidance of ration a bit. We eat, and survive off of vegetables and fish. Thats it. That is all that is necassary to live. Beyond that, its a sport and thrill or its a gorge on tastey hams & greasy chickens. We need some sort of boundry for what is humane and what is not. Because if everyone had a gun and followed no boundries; we'd have more problems than running out of game to eat.

LOL That was the thought of the day. ;)

No, I don't find it twisted at all. I just don't understand how people can condone lining cows up in a processing line and blowing their head off with a bolt gun, or eat chicken considering the processing plant they go through. But yet, if a man (or woman) goes in the woods, hunts a wild animal and brings it home to feed their family, they are considered inhumane.

If we are going on your line of thought, that would could survive without it (which you are correct, we could), I'd say shut down the commercialization of it and make it where if you want a fish, go catch it. If you want a steak, go hunt a deer or round up a cow off of your ranch.

Panamark

08-27-2004, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by YankeeRose
Just because he can afford to buy the best doesn't mean he has to. I'm not saying the man's perfect, but I will defend his right to hunt for food to feed his family. Why should he be lazy and just buy it when he enjoys all the fresh air, exercise, and the satisfaction of seeing his family consuming a meal he provided for them. People can defend themselves, which makes them predictable. Animals are completely unpredictable, making them a much harder target. One must work harder to outwit an animal, therefore, the victory means more simply by virtue of having had to earn it. As for the "high-tech weaponry"...almost all of the time, THE NUGE hunts with a bow and arrow.
I love you PanaMark, you know that, but I disagree with you on this one. The fact that he's rich is besides the point...Things that you earn mean more than things that you just buy. It's a spoiled and somewhat lazy point of view that dictates buying instead of earning.

G'day Rose,

I totally respect the hunters who do so out of necessity. At least the creature died for a reason.

"THE NUGE" can afford as much dead animal as he wants. Why does he have to create more ?? If "THE NUGE" was a peniless hunter whose existance relied on hunting, I would respect "THE NUGE".

It makes me sick justifying this as sport. It doesnt take us long to
learn how a particular animal runs and hides. Our superior
intellect gives us that power to figure shit like that out, very
quickly. Totally unfair advantage, its not sport, its murder.

I used to hunt. It sickens me now. If you can buy an already killed
animal, why kill another ??

I respect the comments that "THE NUGE" only ever uses a bow
and arrow. That gives me hope that some of these innocent
creatures may survive. Hopefully even those where he misses the
"kill zone" and just leaves maimed to struggle in the wilderness..

You wanna shoot arrows, theres plenty of non living targets.
There is no way to justify this.
Unless there is a genuine need for the hunters survival.

I have said in almost every response in this thread that I respect
the genuine hunter. Im glad to see the majority of us agree on this.
Killing anything for no reason is evil.

Jusify that ! :)

And yes I respect your opinion too :D

Big Troubles

08-27-2004, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by moose
This is war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First and foremost BT yer a hypocrite, guess fishing is a lot better than shooting a Moose/Bear/Deer/ Turkey? And waht was that you said about MOOSE steaks a while ago?
This coming from a guy who lives in a town where 90% of the people hunt and fish.
First let me start off by saying that I used to like The Whackmaster, until I found out that he is a friend of spams and that he plays/opens up for the wabo.........
Nuff said. Now to the topic at hand.
The Nug does not KILL for sport. Everything he HARVESTS is used and I mean everything. He is outspoken about his love for the hunt and promotes it as best as he can do you honestly think that he would do anything wrong or unorthodox? No he won't he is too smart of a man.
I am the same way. You see if I don't eat it, guess what you fuckin misinformed assholes, I DON"T KILL IT(bow/rifle) only 1% of the hunting community are BEERDRINKING POACHERS
I've been hunting for 20yrs, and to this day I respect wildlife the same way I did when I was a kid growing up. I have also passed this tradition on to my kids the same way my Dad did to me.
I spend countless hours in the bush HELPING wildlife(putting out feed in the winter, cutting trees for new growth, cleaning streams and river beds and the list goes on).
What do you fuckin assholes do when ti comes time to helping wildlife....I'll tell you NOTHING.
You sit behind computers bitching and complaining about us MEN AND WOMEN who KILL, etc etc.
So until you actually help out with the conservation end of things shut yer FUCKIN TRAPS before I let loose a TEKAN Mechanical into your fat rumps.
Oh and buy the way WILD MEAT is a lot better than that hormone/steriod/growth agent crap you call meat!!!!!!!!
Tools!

Hey fish, but I also toss them back. Ive eaten most wild game through someone who has shot them themselves and ended up with extra. Ive never shot a thing. EVER. My fav. fish is Rainbow Trout. Know where a good spot is? Sobey's. ;) They keep it on ice next to the lobster. :D

moose

08-27-2004, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
Hey fish, but I also toss them back. Ive eaten most wild game through someone who has shot them themselves and ended up with extra. Ive never shot a thing. EVER. My fav. fish is Rainbow Trout. Know where a good spot is? Sobey's. ;) They keep it on ice next to the lobster. :D

Guess you don't know about that sweet little spot off of Gramp's road
for Brookies?:D

Rebel

08-28-2004, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Panamark
If you can buy an already killed animal, why kill another ??

I just can't understand this, so let me try to get this straight. If it went through the line, is packaged up and available at you local supermarket, it's OK to eat a dead animal. But to kill one to eat isn't? I don't think either one of them is necessarily wrong, but if had had to pick one, the prior seems very inhumane.

It makes me sick justifying this as sport. It doesnt take us long to learn how a particular animal runs and hides.

True, that what makes them easy to herd into the plants, but since they are already dead when the y get to you, it's OK, apparently. At least they have a fighting chance in the wild.

Ever eat veal? I haven't. I'll be damned if I'm gonna eat from an animal that was raised literally in a box just to keep the meat tender and slaughtered in a processing plant, but again, it's dead when it gets to you, so it's OK?

Killing anything for no reason is evil.

I agree, I guess we have different perspectives on what a reason is though.

Panamark

08-28-2004, 06:41 AM

You have totally misunderstood me. Sure the food we buy from the supermarket is killed animal. But why kill another, if this is already available, and affordable ?

Do you see my point ?

"True, that what makes them easy to herd into the plants, but since they are already dead when the y get to you, it's OK, apparently. At least they have a fighting chance in the wild. "

I dont fully understand what you are saying here. Man has eaten
animals forever, I dont deny that. I also respect genuine hunters
in need. (again, I say this)

*BUT* why the need to go out and kill, if you dont have to ?

lms2

08-28-2004, 10:31 AM

I have been reading this thread for a while now. I had wisely decided to keep my opinions to myself, but I am such a sharing person. I gotta post.

Processed Beef vs. Wild Game

An animal, such as a cow, that is raised for food is no less of an animal than a deer, or any other wild game animal. It is at a big disadvantage in the killing scheme of things though.

Wild Game. In the wild, an animal develops its instincts, and has a fighting chance. The life of a wild animal is spent in freedom. The animal has the opportunity to come and go as it pleases, to find a mate, to raise offspring. All things are born and all things die. The threat to animals in the wild is so small that if it were not for hunters, these animals would become overpopulated, and they begin starving to death, and wreaking havoc on residential areas. Hunting is a regulated sport. There is a hunting season, a limit on how many animals you can kill, and the manner in which you can kill them. Hunters...the good ones... buy licenses, and that money is used to support the wild life programs set out to help these animals. Of course there are bad hunters as well. Some people abuse the rights and privileges that good hunters follow. They are the exception and not the rule. They are not respected by the "hunting community" but seen as the low lifes they are. If and when they are caught, they are punished by law.

When a man hunts an animal, he respects thats animal. When a man takes a life, he respects that life. Death is not pretty, but it is a fact of life. All creatures will die. When a man eats a steak, killed and cleaned by his own hand, he remembers that life and respects that life.

lms2

08-28-2004, 10:47 AM

Domesticated Animals.

When an animal is raised by humans, for human consumption. It has no life. It eats what it is given to eat, breeds, when man wants it to breed. But it is still an animal. It has a brain, and can think. It can feel pain. Where is the joy for this animal in life.

When a domesticated animal reaches maturity, it is loaded onto a truck, with only enough room for that animal to stand, and is shipped for many miles to slaughter house. There is loaded into a holding pen to await death. While waiting it can hear the terrified cries of his brothers, and smell the blood and death in the air.

When that animals time comes, it is expected to walk meekly, single file, to its death. Not all animals do this and some are beaten into compliance. The first stage of death for these animals is that they receive a shock to the brain. This not to kill, but to stun, so it can be strung up easily. The animal is left alive for the bleeding process. If the animal is accidently killed before being bleed, it affects the quality of the meat. The animal is then split wide open and it bleeds to death. While it is bleeding to death, it undergoes a series of electrical shocks to "tenderize" the meat. The first occuring before death.

After that point it is touched by hundreds of human hands. Government regulates the quality of meat... how many hairs, or other "contaminants" do you think are considered accepteble per pound of meat? The meat is processed by people. People who sneeze on it, who use the restroom and don't wash their hands, who suffer from disease....

Then it is packaged, by more of these same people, and ends up on the grocers shelf. There it is purchased and consumed by people who give no more thought to their meal than how much it cost per pound, or whether or not it is well prepared. No thought is given to the life that was lost.

One further note. The "stunners" and the "bleeders" in the packing plants are rotated out at a minimum of every six months. Do you know how many animals they kill in that time? They are not rotated out because they get bored with it. They are rotated out because they become immune to it. They start to crave it. Killing, every few seconds, eight hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week, really fucks with your head. Thats why they are rotated out.

Enjoy your steaks and burgers peoples.

I am not a hunter. I do not like to kill, nor do I like the taste of wild game. But I respect the rights of those who do. IMO, it really is the lesser of the two evils.

moose

08-28-2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by lms2
I have been reading this thread for a while now. I had wisely decided to keep my opinions to myself, but I am such a sharing person. I gotta post.

Processed Beef vs. Wild Game

An animal, such as a cow, that is raised for food is no less of an animal than a deer, or any other wild game animal. It is at a big disadvantage in the killing scheme of things though.

Wild Game. In the wild, an animal develops its instincts, and has a fighting chance. The life of a wild animal is spent in freedom. The animal has the opportunity to come and go as it pleases, to find a mate, to raise offspring. All things are born and all things die. The threat to animals in the wild is so small that if it were not for hunters, these animals would become overpopulated, and they begin starving to death, and wreaking havoc on residential areas. Hunting is a regulated sport. There is a hunting season, a limit on how many animals you can kill, and the manner in which you can kill them. Hunters...the good ones... buy licenses, and that money is used to support the wild life programs set out to help these animals. Of course there are bad hunters as well. Some people abuse the rights and privileges that good hunters follow. They are the exception and not the rule. They are not respected by the "hunting community" but seen as the low lifes they are. If and when they are caught, they are punished by law.

When a man hunts an animal, he respects thats animal. When a man takes a life, he respects that life. Death is not pretty, but it is a fact of life. All creatures will die. When a man eats a steak, killed and cleaned by his own hand, he remembers that life and respects that life.

You my dear get a vote from me!

lms2

08-28-2004, 11:05 AM

thank you, heres one back at you. ;)

Rebel

08-28-2004, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by lms2
Then it is packaged, by more of these same people, and ends up on the grocers shelf. There it is purchased and consumed by people who give no more thought to their meal than how much it cost per pound, or whether or not it is well prepared. No thought is given to the life that was lost.

Awesome posts, my thoughts exactly, you conveyed that so well. Hunters respect the animal, the life of it. While I don't think having ranches for raising cattle for processing is morally wrong, I don't see how people who can buy their meat at a supermarket can point their finger at the hunters of the world.

You got my vote as well dude, great posts.

Rebel

08-28-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Panamark
[B] You have totally misunderstood me. Sure the food we buy from the supermarket is killed animal. But why kill another, if this is already available, and affordable ?

Do you see my point ?

I see your point, I just don't agree with it.

"True, that what makes them easy to herd into the plants, but since they are already dead when the y get to you, it's OK, apparently. At least they have a fighting chance in the wild. "

I dont fully understand what you are saying here. Man has eaten
animals forever, I dont deny that. I also respect genuine hunters
in need. (again, I say this)

*BUT* why the need to go out and kill, if you dont have to ?

I don't think I was clear on my point.

What I was saying was, you were questioning their intelligence. That we are smarter than them, we can find them in the wild, know where they hide, where they run, etc. That's all very true, but we also use our intelligence to build fences, raise them, and kill them (as lsm2 described in his post). We are more intelligent, no doubt about it. But which is more humane? Herding them to a kill, or going into their wild, their territory, on a hunt? To me, it's not even debatable, but everybody has their own opinions on this.

lms2

08-28-2004, 04:19 PM

And one for you as well, Rebel.

Another way of looking at the difference in the killing of either animal, wild or domesticated, is that domesticated rely on humans for existence. In that way, they come to know and trust us. Then we turn around and kill them. Stab in the f**cking back or what? At least animals in the wild no they can't trust us.

fanofdave

08-28-2004, 04:28 PM

ted still rocks the house. as for ted's hunting, i'm reminded
of a question asked of him in a michigan newspaper once:
"ted, what do you consider an endangered species?"

he replied, " anything within 30 yards of my bow and arrow..."

it all tastes like chicken, so shoot it and eat it, baby.

Big Troubles

08-28-2004, 04:47 PM

I think if the hunter respected the animal THAT much, he'd toss the animal a rifle and make it fair game. Its easy to say that killing wild game is "fair game" because they have instincts to rely on, and man respects animal for this. Thats horseshit. Bottom line, food is available via processing, and cost effective for EVERYONE to buy at the supermarket and the only reason people pick up a gun and head into the bush is to KILL for the thrill. I think Man vs Man would be fun though. Leave the animals alone, and let them watch on the sidelines as hunters take out each other with 22's and arrows. :D Awe come on guys...Its just a sport. And hey, while one hunter aims his scope at another hunters head, Im sure he will have nothing but "respect" for him. ;)

lms2

08-28-2004, 05:07 PM

Come on down to the states for a visit. Happens all the time. Thats why america is loosing their kids to gang violence. Their a certain amount of respect among gangs and they hunt each other.

I respect your opinion on not killing animals, but attribute it to the fact that we live in different areas. Here, deer are out on the roadway causing accidents all the time as they wonder into residential areas to to search for food. They mate and reproduce like crazy, and we don't have enough open land for them to survive. If not hunted, they will starve.

There is also a BIG difference in hunting, and poaching.

Anyways, its nice to know you are a big softie at heart. ;)

Big Troubles

08-28-2004, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by lms2
Come on down to the states for a visit. Happens all the time. Thats why america is loosing their kids to gang violence. Their a certain amount of respect among gangs and they hunt each other.

I respect your opinion on not killing animals, but attribute it to the fact that we live in different areas. Here, deer are out on the roadway causing accidents all the time as they wonder into residential areas to to search for food. They mate and reproduce like crazy, and we don't have enough open land for them to survive. If not hunted, they will starve.

There is also a BIG difference in hunting, and poaching.

Anyways, its nice to know you are a big softie at heart. ;)

:D Im such a sweetheart.... I just cant condone killing animals. (but I do understand that something can be reached mutually that would benefit both sides)

lms2

08-28-2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
(but I do understand that something can be reached mutually that would benefit both sides)

such as?

And by the way, I am not a hunter or the hunted either...I am a way big softie. I just don't feel like it is my place to criticize other people who do hunt. For a lot of families it is tradition and way of life.

Run Bambi, run. :D

YankeeRose

08-28-2004, 10:58 PM

Why is it okay to slaughter animals like the Germans slaughtered the Jews, but it is morally wrong, but only if you're rich, to kill to feed your family?

lms2

08-29-2004, 12:09 AM

Good Point YankeeRose. What does money have to do with it?

moose

08-29-2004, 02:05 AM

moose

08-29-2004, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
I think if the hunter respected the animal THAT much, he'd toss the animal a rifle and make it fair game. Its easy to say that killing wild game is "fair game" because they have instincts to rely on, and man respects animal for this. Thats horseshit. Bottom line, food is available via processing, and cost effective for EVERYONE to buy at the supermarket and the only reason people pick up a gun and head into the bush is to KILL for the thrill. I think Man vs Man would be fun though. Leave the animals alone, and let them watch on the sidelines as hunters take out each other with 22's and arrows. :D Awe come on guys...Its just a sport. And hey, while one hunter aims his scope at another hunters head, Im sure he will have nothing but "respect" for him. ;)

How about you getting rid of your fishing rod? What catch and release doesn't kill fish? BS. You are a hypocrite! Like I said earlier get off your fat ass and come to my camp when it's -40 and help take out MUCH NEEDED winter feed to the wildlife in the bush, or maybe help clean some stream beds in spring time, when the bugs are out in full force, yer a fuckin tree hugger with no trees around you.
Do us a favour, stop eating meat, fish, wearing leather, using paper/wood products, putting gas in your car when you have to go fishing.....I can go on forever BT. Think about what you do before you critisize others! Oh ya yer still "Tool of the day" LOL

Panamark

08-29-2004, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by YankeeRose
Why is it okay to slaughter animals like the Germans slaughtered the Jews, but it is morally wrong, but only if you're rich, to kill to feed your family?

Because you have no need to kill.

You have the means to buy food.

Really, is it that difficult to understand ???

Panamark

08-29-2004, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by Rebel
I see your point, I just don't agree with it.

I don't think I was clear on my point.

What I was saying was, you were questioning their intelligence. That we are smarter than them, we can find them in the wild, know where they hide, where they run, etc. That's all very true, but we also use our intelligence to build fences, raise them, and kill them (as lsm2 described in his post). We are more intelligent, no doubt about it. But which is more humane? Herding them to a kill, or going into their wild, their territory, on a hunt? To me, it's not even debatable, but everybody has their own opinions on this.

I dont find either particularly humane. But slaughtering farm animals is something that happens regardlesss, whether it less humane or not. This provides food prepackaged at your supermarket.

If you can afford to buy this, why waste even more life ?

(Regardless of which method is more or less humane)

Look, Im getting sick of this debate, I used to hunt, I used to
kill animals, one day all of a sudden (like a lightning bolt from god)
I felt it was totally wrong. I regret the murder of every innocent
animal I killed. Yet I dont deny the hunter/farmer who hunts out
of real necessity. I understand and respect it.

"THE NUGE" repulses me as much as the English Royal Family with
their Fox hunts. Rich people killing animals for no legitimate reason.
Hey if Im wrong about feeling this way, Im fucking proud to be wrong..

And I dont harbour bad feelings towards the normal folk out there
that have to hunt. I totally understand this.

moose

08-29-2004, 11:45 AM

Like I said earlier, put your money where your mouth's are, Panamark and BT. Until you tree huggers actually do somethin for the wildlife/ natural resources, shut your big TRAPS. Yada Yada Yada, that's all you do, not once do people like yourselves invest any quality time in the great outdoors assisting organizations in cleaning up the pollution that WE as a global population have created. I along with millions of other HUNTERS belong to numerous wildlife organizations and spend lots of money in pursuit of our quarry and for the better of our land.
Just a quick fact for you turds, there is more wildlife today than there was when our forefathers came to this great land, whitetail deer are nearing 25 million from a dismal 200k back in 1920,
Elk are close to 1.5 million from a ghastly 50k back in 1935
Wild Turkey from near extinction in the 30's and only 2 states that allowed turkey hunting to nearly 50 states with a turkey huntin season and close to 5+ million birds, and here in Canada from 54 birds released in 84' to nearly 60000 today. And this is all in the face of human encroachment and the raping of the land.
I can go on for hours with facts and figures but you tree huggers don't give a shit(even though you pretend to)
Who do we thank for these ASTOUNDING #'s, well let me see
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation(member for 15yrs) Hey BT where were you when we released these magnificent creatures in the Burwash(close to your home) when it was -46 below, I know in your home in a warm bed. Oh and guess what I've never hunted Elk but still I support them...........shit guess i'm just a senseless killer
Boone and Crockett Club..................first hunting organization, first to save wildspaces and turn them into National Parks, first to enforce rules and regulations and set hunting seasons and founded by Presedint Franklin Delano Rosevelt.(Associate Member)
Safari Club International..... These organization was the one that helped assist all African Countries with the assault on POACHING(this my dear friends is where the big money is, these guys can afford to pay $60000 for one license to hunt any of the big 5......elephant, Cape buffalo, lion, Rhino, Leopard and spend $500-$1000 dollars a day for guiding and also pay trophy fees for the animals that they harvest that are pretty near what some of us make annually) and where does this money go..............back into the resources fighting poachers and the trade in illegal wildlife parts. Never been to Africa don't think I'll ever go(I can afford it) but shit I'm still am a Associate Member
Ruffed Grouse Society, National Wild Turkey Federation, the lists go on and on.
So next time you meet a hunter, who hunts with bow or rifle say thanx because if it wasn't for us you or your kids would never see any wildlife anywherre.
So please until you can actually say to me that you are doing something positive to help our WILDLIFE and our resources...........

Read my "Now Playing"

HELLVIS

08-29-2004, 01:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panamark

"THE NUGE" can afford as much dead animal as he wants. Why does he have to create more ??

Yes, Ted can afford whatever the hell he wants to eat, but he has true ethics and respect for balance of nature. He is also the most respected conservationist I personally know.
Do you even know the difference between a conservationist and a common hunter? Probably not, not that it's your fault, but a hunter kills simply for the sport. Maybe he takes a trophy. Maybe he eats the kill. Maybe he even does both. However, these things are just fringe benefits. A conservationist may take trophies, but always consumes the kill. Not only does a conservationist kill, they also spend many mornings logging herd/flock/pack/ numbers in order to preserve balance, while misguided tree hugger PETA college types are sleeping off hangovers. And when these numbers are low they report to the proper authorities. They also personally plant trees and other vegitation, clean wetlands/streams/lakes/ponds/etc., and recycle.

I can assure you personally that Ted does all that and more on a consistant basis.
He will not eat chicken from any commercial farm. Do you?
He will not eat veal. Would you?
He planted over 11,000 trees last year alone. How many have you planted?
He and his various groups donate tons, yes tons, of clean, steriod free, non tortured food to the homeless every year. How much have you donated?
Ted takes cloth sacks to the grocery instead of the paper/plastic ones that most people throw into land fills. How about you?
Ted has confronted and stopped poachers in the act. Would you stand up to another man/men with guns?
I could go on and on for another 5,000 words and not cover it all.
Let's just say,unless you've talked to the man you are talking out your ass when you make the kind of assumptions that have been made on this thead.

HELLVIS

08-29-2004, 01:45 PM

As far as guitar playing is concerned, he is very well versed in theory and can sit in on just about any song with anybody at any time. Hell, he has been playing guitar for over forty years. Granted, he's not the flashiest lead player by a long shot, but then again, many of those kind of players know how to make fireworks, but can't play with any real feeling.

Big Troubles

08-29-2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by moose
How about you getting rid of your fishing rod? What catch and release doesn't kill fish? BS. You are a hypocrite! Like I said earlier get off your fat ass and come to my camp when it's -40 and help take out MUCH NEEDED winter feed to the wildlife in the bush, or maybe help clean some stream beds in spring time, when the bugs are out in full force, yer a fuckin tree hugger with no trees around you.
Do us a favour, stop eating meat, fish, wearing leather, using paper/wood products, putting gas in your car when you have to go fishing.....I can go on forever BT. Think about what you do before you critisize others! Oh ya yer still "Tool of the day" LOL

Awe, you dont wanna push my buttons Moose. We'd be playing this game for along time. ;) #1 Dont call me names. I haven't called you any names. (tool?) :rolleyes: #2 I am not even close to what you call a "tree hugger". In fact Im not sure what the REAL definition is, so what the Hell, maybe I am??? I like trees. Without them I wouldn't be able to breath. And neither would you..So maybe I wont like them anymore. lol #3 "How about you getting rid of your fishing rod? What catch and release doesn't kill fish?" This year Ive caught AND released Northern Pike, Bass, Yellow Perch a few Muskie from Diver- In the same breath I can tell you Ive eaten many Speckels and Rainbow, tons of Big Macs, lots of KFC and enjoyed many chops and beef eater steaks on the BBQ. Im not trying to "hug a tree", nor am I riding the fence on any serious issue. (in fact, I didn't take any of this shit serious- apparently just you. #4 How does "Do us a favour, stop eating meat, fish, wearing leather, using paper/wood products, putting gas in your car when you have to go fishing..." have to do with bringing a gun into the bush, drinking beer, wearing silly orange colours, blowing into animal noise flutes and shooting a "defensless yet instinctive" Deer have to do with anything you mentioned? Seriously. Im not a vegetarian and Im not a tree hugger. Im empathetic to those that feed their families based on hunting maturely for food and or clothing, yet I DO condemn those that hunt for the thrill and have no need for the food or clothing. If you are offended by that, then you "sir" are the latter.

and um, "I can go on forever BT. Think about what you do before you critisize others!" Please don't go on forever- my ears started bleeding when you said "How about...." :D And you, again, misunderstood what my point was. (you are the only one I believe?) I wasn't critising anyone, except those that kill for the thrill. Can you guess who the "tool" is now? :eatit:

BT No not just "Better Than", it's Big Troubles. :heyfu:

Big Troubles

08-29-2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by lms2
such as?

And by the way, I am not a hunter or the hunted either...I am a way big softie. I just don't feel like it is my place to criticize other people who do hunt. For a lot of families it is tradition and way of life.

Run Bambi, run. :D

Not sure. Im not high on ideas for a mutual understanding, just the original idea, that Im sure something is better than a Governed law of animal killing. Whether its cows and chickens for mass slaughter or just Moose on a saturday night when he's fighting off his "black Flies in -40 degree weather". :D And AGAIN, Im not critisizing anyone for hunting, just killing animals for no purpose. Tradition and way of life is perfect, but there are those that use that as an excuse. Come to Canada and watch the Natives net an entire lake wanting Pickeral, getting all they can and leave the Pike and Perch on the shores to die. Thats apparently their way of life too. Sad part is, what they do is legal.

moose

08-29-2004, 08:07 PM

BT, BT, BT, before I start sounding like you, a broken record, you still did not answer my ? which was "what do you do to help our natural resources and wildlife?"
When you comment on one of my posts read it before you make yourself look like an ass " moose fighting off black flies on a Saturday night in -40 degree weather" where did you get that from?
I thought that you of all people would be more intelligent and actually read into and between the lines but I guess I was wrong.
When I said to stop eating meat, wearing leather..........I was saying that we as a human race slaughter everything in site. Nothing is left sacred and for you to critisize me or any other person for killin an animal which we consume was wrong. Just look at yourself I don't agree with going fishing just to catch a fish take a picture and throw it back into the water. If that isn't THRILL seeking than what is? I fish myself but only for walleye and nothing else, why cause I eat what I catch the same goes for when I hunt, if I DON'T EAT IT I DON'T SHOOT IT.
My weapon is a gun/bow yours is a fishing rod/ with all the gadgets, which I assume also includes a boat with a 2 stroke 9.9hp(?) which may I add pollute our water systems to no end I know I had one and bought a four stroke because of that reason alone.

So in essence BT you yourself along with the other fisherman who practice catch and release kill fish for the thrill of it yet you don't admit that what you do is wrong.
According to a few, we as hunters should go to the grocery store to buy meat which is readily available, the same can be said for you as a fisherman go to Sobey's and buy your fish.
But you know what BT it's not the same, you know it as well as I do.

As stated earlier, only 1% of the hunting community are SLOBS, so we wear an orange vest to protect ourselves from them slobs, why do you wear a safety jacket when on a boat?
Is it because it's law? or is it as a net in case anything serious happens, you know hit a submersed rock, turn to quick and flip your boat, or maybe you guys drank just a bit to much and lost control?
You get your slobs in both ends of the spectrum but yet we HUNTERS are terrible people.
I've been eating wild game for 30+ yrs and I'm not gonna stop, my entire family eats wild game and they just luv it.
Which by the way BT you're diet is terrible, look at all the shit your putting into your body, heart valve clogging agents, cholesterol laden JUNK food..........way to go I'd rather know you as Big Troubles as opposed to Big Turd.
Anyhow if ya want to go on with this I'm ready if not i'll see ya at the show.
Cheers.
Moose

lms2

08-29-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Big Troubles
Come to Canada and watch the Natives net an entire lake wanting Pickeral, getting all they can and leave the Pike and Perch on the shores to die. Thats apparently their way of life too. Sad part is, what they do is legal.

Aye, Aye, Big Troubles. This is why I avoided this thread. I have no opinion on Nugent's music. I can take it or leave it.

Again, I am not a hunter, nor am I married to one. I understand that there are low life bastards that hunt deer from moving vehicles, during off season, and leave the carcass to rot where it falls. I was not aware of the native fishing practices in Canada, but am aware that the commercial fishing industry is not much better.

When I made the comment about hunters respecting life, I was not necessarily refering to the animal they just killed. I was refering more to the whole life cycle. The animal and the ecosystem in which it survives.

I am the original fence sitter. Bless you one and all, and I hope you are able to resolve your differences.

Big Troubles

08-29-2004, 10:23 PM

LOL wow, it got really fucking interesting didn't? :D In a Ted Nugent thread, we accuse, back and forth of passing judgment on different points of view, whether anyone of us really has the authority to do it any kind of real justice. We have all agreed that killing animals DOES have a certain level of purpose. Great. But Moose, I will now go into the area of defending my opinion of "catch and release" fish practices, that you seem to infer some sort of "torture" for the fish, and without natural merit. Moose. Look at your screen. Can you see me? No. That my friend is the approximate size of a fish's brain. :D Something tells me they don't understand fear the exact same way, say a Deer does. ;) I really dont want to play this game. You have your views, to which I partially agree with. I have mine, to which I don't give a flying fuck who agrees with. Such is life.

lms2 commercial fishermen are Governed on two different levels. National and International. More eyes on the project means more of an efficient way of supplying a larger mass of people across the Globe with all kinds of seafood. Not one "tribe" with wasting 90% of the capture. ;) C'mon join in the zaniness of this mostly pro- Nugent thread and tell us your fish story. :D

HELLVIS

08-29-2004, 10:46 PM

We are a gluttonous bunch here in the free world, thanks to the millions and millions of animals who spend their entire short and perpetually tortured lives in our "out of plain site" mass meat murder concentration camps.
We are a spoiled bunch. A fat bunch. A lazy bunch.

A lot would change if we were forced to hunt, kill, clean, and prepare our own food. Oh, and a shit load less animals would have to die.

Remember, the meat we buy at the market is full of steroids, spent life covered in it's own piss and shit, and much of it is forced into cannibalism, (which, by the way has been linked to a host of debilitating and deadly diseases).

We must eat meat, and free range is the only way to go.

Big Troubles

08-29-2004, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by HELLVIS
We are a gluttonous bunch here in the free world, thanks to the millions and millions of animals who spend their entire short and perpetually tortured lives in our "out of plain site" mass meat murder concentration camps.
We are a spoiled bunch. A fat bunch. A lazy bunch.

A lot would change if we were forced to hunt, kill, clean, and prepare our own food. Oh, and a shit load less animals would have to die.

Remember, the meat we buy at the market is full of steroids, spent life covered in it's own piss and shit, and much of it is forced into cannibalism, (which, by the way has been linked to a host of debilitating and deadly diseases).

We must eat meat, and free range is the only way to go.

weird thing is, my favorite Ted Nugent song is Dog Eat Dog. :D

lms2

08-30-2004, 01:27 AM

Dog eat Dog... yep thats this world to a T.

You want my fish story, you got it. I like to fish. I think that fish can think. Of course, here in Kansas, I fish for catfish. Just like a cat, a catfish likes to play with the bait. They nibble, nibble gnaw. Sometimes they get your worm off without ever even taking a big bite. Sometimes they bite. Then they head for the weeds, rocks, anything on the bottom of the pond to tangle your line and piss you off. Catch and release. I hate eating fish. I love fishing because it is relaxing. I connect with nature and with god. Its also something I used to do with my dad who died when I was ten. Sometimes, I don't even bait my hook. Just sit out by the water and speculate. Could I just sit and speculate without casting my pole into the water> Sometimes I do that too.

You can fish for trout, the Fish and Game Commmission stocks the ponds several times in late fall and winter. Anything not caught does not survive the summer. The fish die because the water gets too warm.

Here in Kansas, we have carp. Thats our "junk" or "trash" fish, and man are those suckers fun to catch. THEY FIGHT. Some assholes get mad when catch these fish and throw them out on the bank to die.

We also have turtles in our ponds. Some of them suckers are huge. They will eat your fish if you leave them on a stringer in the water. I have seen turtle heads that look like a dang otters head.

Anyway, even though i catch and release, I have had a fish or two swallow the hook. It isn't pretty. And if I catch a turtle, I just cut the line. No way am I loosing a finger. If I have someone with me to assist, we will remove the hook, but with our turtles, its not a one man (woman) job.

Confession has not made me feel better.

Panamark

08-30-2004, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by HELLVIS
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panamark

"THE NUGE" can afford as much dead animal as he wants. Why does he have to create more ??

Yes, Ted can afford whatever the hell he wants to eat, but he has true ethics and respect for balance of nature. He is also the most respected conservationist I personally know.
Do you even know the difference between a conservationist and a common hunter? Probably not, not that it's your fault, but a hunter kills simply for the sport. Maybe he takes a trophy. Maybe he eats the kill. Maybe he even does both. However, these things are just fringe benefits. A conservationist may take trophies, but always consumes the kill. Not only does a conservationist kill, they also spend many mornings logging herd/flock/pack/ numbers in order to preserve balance, while misguided tree hugger PETA college types are sleeping off hangovers. And when these numbers are low they report to the proper authorities. They also personally plant trees and other vegitation, clean wetlands/streams/lakes/ponds/etc., and recycle.

I can assure you personally that Ted does all that and more on a consistant basis.
He will not eat chicken from any commercial farm. Do you?
He will not eat veal. Would you?
He planted over 11,000 trees last year alone. How many have you planted?
He and his various groups donate tons, yes tons, of clean, steriod free, non tortured food to the homeless every year. How much have you donated?
Ted takes cloth sacks to the grocery instead of the paper/plastic ones that most people throw into land fills. How about you?
Ted has confronted and stopped poachers in the act. Would you stand up to another man/men with guns?
I could go on and on for another 5,000 words and not cover it all.
Let's just say,unless you've talked to the man you are talking out your ass when you make the kind of assumptions that have been made on this thead.

Thats all noble and nice.
Caring for creatures that you want to kill.
It makes me feel all warm inside.

Theres a certain video of Ted Nugent, its floating around in the
back of my mind. Let me see if I can find it.
Sounds like Ted is cool with Tree conservation. A quality I can
now appreciate in "THE NUGE". As for battery hens and farmed
chickens, no I will only eat free range. I was born on a large farm
of which chickens were one of the livestock we managed. This
was all free range.

I despise veal.

I go out of my way to rescue injured animals, and donate money
to those foundations that do so...

Think what you want of me, I dont give a fuck. Theres some things
that are just wrong, no matter how much you try and justify it.

I did learn today, from you, that "THE NUGE" is a good friend to the trees though.
That has redeemed him a little in my thinking. Animal murder aside.

And MOOSE !!

Do I even know the difference between a conservationist and a common hunter? Yes, if you read the whole thread you would see that
I used to hunt. I totally respect the conservationist approach to hunting. The whole point here is that why kill, if its not necessary ?
Its very frustrating to me that you all find it so difficult to grasp.

Yes its good that "THE NUGE" approaches his hunting with a convservationist approach, yes its good that he donates or eats
what he kills, yes its good that he loves trees,

BUT WHY KILL IF YOU DONT HAVE TO.

Simple point.

Im getting sick of this argument. I respect real hunters who rely on
the food. If I go and plant a few thousand trees, am I suddenly justified in killing an otherwise free animal ???

If I show concern on dwindling species numbers then go and kill
another animal, was the kill justified?

There are many free range farms that "THE NUGE" can purchase
farmed, steroid and tortured free animals to donate to the poor.

He just gets a hard on killing animals.

Face it.

HELLVIS

08-31-2004, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Panamark

I will only eat free range. I was born on a large farm
of which chickens were one of the livestock we managed. This
was all free range.
Think what you want of me, I dont give a fuck. Theres some things
that are just wrong, no matter how much you try and justify it.
The whole point here is that why kill, if its not necessary ?
Its very frustrating to me that you all find it so difficult to grasp.

BUT WHY KILL IF YOU DONT HAVE TO.

Simple point.

Im getting sick of this argument. I respect real hunters who rely on
the food. If I go and plant a few thousand trees, am I suddenly justified in killing an otherwise free animal ???

If I show concern on dwindling species numbers then go and kill
another animal, was the kill justified?

He just gets a hard on killing animals.

Face it.

Like you say, you eat chickens. Free range or not, it doesn't change the fact that in you own words, they are murdered.

I do think of you what I like, thank you. I think you're one of the coolest people posting on this site. No really. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I think badly of you.

If you go and fence in ( even on wide open fields ) many animals , who face it, have been enslaved for generations anyway, are you suddenly justified in killing them.

If you show concern for the cute bambi, thumper, flipper, white fang, and free willy, and then go kill those ugly ass stupid chickens, was the kill justified?

You just get a hard on killing farm animals, which have been kept down by the man for centuries, just like the black man.

Face it.

YankeeRose

08-31-2004, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Panamark
Because you have no need to kill.

You have the means to buy food.

Really, is it that difficult to understand ???

No. It's not difficult at all to understand your point of view. In many ways, I agree. I just don't have it in me to kill an animal, but I'm not a vegetarian and never have been. However, he has every right to go out and earn a meal for his family. Why should he buy pre-packaged meat if he feels the means of obtaining it are inhumane. In the wild, at least the animal has a chance.

HELLVIS

08-31-2004, 11:24 PM

Well put.And may I say, with far less sarcasm and fewer words than I.

YankeeRose

08-31-2004, 11:28 PM

thank you..

HELLVIS

08-31-2004, 11:41 PM

You are welcome.
Have a vote.

Panamark

09-01-2004, 03:45 AM

I dont get a hard on killing anything.
Free, Farmed or otherwise.
I will even catch spiders in my home and
let them free outside. Let life live.

Im Sorry Rosie, I still dont get why "THE NUGE" has to kill
when he is in such a privaleged postion to buy food.
He has already provided for his family by the vast wealth
he has created through his music.

I honestly believe he enjoys hunting. Im not cool with that.
Do you think he would hunt if he didnt enjoy it ?

I dont think it has anything to do with some need to
provide for his rich family, as noble as your thoughts are.

And your thoughts are good. I just get the vibe that this
cat enjoys the kill. You can be a shooter or skilled with
a bow and arrow, without having to take a life.
"THE NUGE" loves to hunt and kill. Even if he is the
worlds greatest conservasionist hunter, I still dont agree
with killing for killings sake. Even if you justify it by donating
the dead animal or eating it yourself. *IF* there is absolutely
no real need for you to have to do so.

HELLVIS, I appreciate your kind comments..

Cheers,

-Mark

Panamark

09-01-2004, 04:13 AM

Oh and on a closing note, let me draw comparisons of
"THE NUGE" and one of our own famous Australian
conservationist hunter.

Steve Irwin. The crocodile hunter. Theatrics aside, this guy
hunts crocs in the wild, with his bare hands, why ?

To save the animals. No weapons or killing involved.

Human against crocodile, bare handed in the wild.
No pussy hiding behind a tree with a weapon.

For every Ted Nugent out there killing, I thank god
for every Steve Irwin that hunts animals to save them.

Its clear who the real men are.

Thanks for the debate.

moose

09-01-2004, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Panamark
Oh and on a closing note, let me draw comparisons of
"THE NUGE" and one of our own famous Australian
conservationist hunter.

Steve Irwin. The crocodile hunter. Theatrics aside, this guy
hunts crocs in the wild, with his bare hands, why ?

To save the animals. No weapons or killing involved.

Human against crocodile, bare handed in the wild.
No pussy hiding behind a tree with a weapon.

For every Ted Nugent out there killing, I thank god
for every Steve Irwin that hunts animals to save them.

Its clear who the real men are.

Thanks for the debate.

Yup just so he can make more money at his Animal Compound in Australia. By the way guess you never saw the show where he killed a couple of wild pigs (very inhumanely) to use as bait for the crocs he catch's with his bare hands under supervised conditions with a couple of guys in the background holding rifles just in case something goes wrong. You can do quite a lot with todays technology................

Panamark

09-01-2004, 10:21 AM

No I havent seen that Moose :)

Ive only seen "THE NUGE" shooting birds in his yard for "fun"

Hey we Aussies are crazy, but we are not stupid, of course we have
weapons on hand.. Especially when dealing with crocs, but
the intention is conservation, not destruction..

This has turned into some debate, huh. I think most of us
agree on the main principles here. Responsible hunting where
its a genuine necessity (to provide food or control pests) has
been going on since the dawn of time. Also in some cases
Animal populations have to be culled to preserve that species.
ie: if there are more animals than the food that sustains them.
In those situations, of course killing is a necessity.

The thing I cant stand is needless killing of wild animals.

I dont disrepect any of you genuine hunters. I dont like
people who have no real need or necessity to kill, that
still choose to do so... Methinks "THE NUGE" is one of those
rich people into bloodsport. It might be your constitutional
right to bare arms, but that doesnt give you a god given right
to kill gods creatures at random. *UNLESS* its for your own
survival or valid reasons, its fucking wrong...

Cheers,

-Mark

moose

09-01-2004, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Panamark
No I havent seen that Moose :)

Ive only seen "THE NUGE" shooting birds in his yard for "fun"

Hey we Aussies are crazy, but we are not stupid, of course we have
weapons on hand.. Especially when dealing with crocs, but
the intention is conservation, not destruction..

This has turned into some debate, huh. I think most of us
agree on the main principles here. Responsible hunting where
its a genuine necessity (to provide food or control pests) has
been going on since the dawn of time. Also in some cases
Animal populations have to be culled to preserve that species.
ie: if there are more animals than the food that sustains them.
In those situations, of course killing is a necessity.

The thing I cant stand is needless killing of wild animals.

I dont disrepect any of you genuine hunters. I dont like
people who have no real need or necessity to kill, that
still choose to do so... Methinks "THE NUGE" is one of those
rich people into bloodsport. It might be your constitutional
right to bare arms, but that doesnt give you a god given right
to kill gods creatures at random. *UNLESS* its for your own
survival or valid reasons, its fucking wrong...

Cheers,

-Mark

I truly agree with you and BT on that one pal. For someone to go and shoot an animal and leave it the bush and not take the edible bounty that the creature has provided is totally against my and for the matter at hand any responsible hunters' ethics. If I were to ever see this I would personally shoot them(poachers) and leave their sorry carcass in the wild for consumption by all of God's creatures(carnivores/herbivores) to fill their bellies.
If someone has the money and they feel like they want to hunt the Big 5 in Africa so be it. You have to understand that when we as hunters go pursuing wild game in other countries we have to follow their strict rules and regulations, which I may add has severe penalties for waste of edible meat(the meat of most animals taken in other continents by hunters is usually given to the local tribe/ot homless shelters)
so please make the distinction between Ethical hunters/ Wanton Hunters and the ones who give us the worst name..................POACHERS.
Now back to the Nuges' music............WANGO TANGO!

CHEERS
MOOSE

Hecubus

09-02-2004, 01:01 AM

Totally dig the Nuge, but not necessarily his guitar tone. It's too thin for my taste

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by HELLVIS
Like you say, you eat chickens. Free range or not, it doesn't change the fact that in you own words, they are murdered.

I do think of you what I like, thank you. I think you're one of the coolest people posting on this site. No really. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I think badly of you.

If you go and fence in ( even on wide open fields ) many animals , who face it, have been enslaved for generations anyway, are you suddenly justified in killing them.

If you show concern for the cute bambi, thumper, flipper, white fang, and free willy, and then go kill those ugly ass stupid chickens, was the kill justified?

You just get a hard on killing farm animals, which have been kept down by the man for centuries, just like the black man.

Face it.

Look , my musical siblings of rock.....I think what Panamark is trying to get at here is that, YES !! IT IS ALL MURDER!!....However, there is always going to be beef, poultry, and chicken products in every grocery store of which came to be from the killing of innocent creatures. That is never going to change as long as humans remain selfish and hungry meat eaters. So why kill to eat another innocent animal yourself, when there are millions who have already been butchared for that reason? Even though that is still wrong, we might as well go ahead and make their lives worthy of appreciation because of THE fact that people are simply never going to stop eating meat. It's not like everybody has some woods to go hunting in every Saturday, and can respect their killings in such a way! It is sad how they kill these animals, and society should work for a more humane way of doing this; however, there is a reason why the hunting goods in Walmart are located in the "Sporting section". People are not hunting to feed themselves in this day in age! It is a sport! The proof is in the buck heads aligning the walls of every known hunter's homes (TED NUGENT)!

Now, when I die....I want my organs to be donated to nourish someone's life while they are able to be. It is not disrespectful for a little girl to carry my heart in her chest so that she may have 10 years added to her life!

Now, it would be different, however, if I got killed in a car wreck, and the other victim in the wreck lost his/her eyes, and used mine as donors.....BUT THEN CUT MY HEAD OFF AND ATTACHED IT TO HIS/HER LIVING ROOM WALL! TELL ME HOW THAT IS NOT EVIL?

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:36 PM

I dare you to challenge the master of metaphors! Ha Ha Ha Ha!

:)

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by HELLVIS

You just get a hard on killing farm animals, which have been kept down by the man for centuries, just like the black man.

Face it.

Not a good comparison! Does humanity need the black man as a necessary source of protein?

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:42 PM

Humans were not created to enslave black people, but they were designed with the need to eat meat.

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:50 PM

SweetSecrets takes the stand for the defense of Panamark:

"Mark doesn't have a liking for the death of any innocent creature, you dick-head! He risks his own life dodging cars on freeways in SYDNEY (think....fucking pretty busy traffic!) to save helpless dogs without road sense wandering towards near death.

He is my hero! And I am forever his defender!

:)

lms2

09-02-2004, 06:56 PM

Debatable whether or not we need to eat meat. Vegans live happy healthy lives.

Trophy hunters, and hunting for sport. Yes, I can see Panamark's point, but what you guys are missing is that point that hunter's respect life. Do they take life? Yes. Do they show off their "trophies"? Yes. Do they often go to exotic places and spend lots of money to hunt animals they can't hunt in their own neck of the woods? Yes. They do. And they are proud of their kills. That does not mean that they are evil murders. They are men and women honoring a tradition as old as time.

Growing animals as a crop, to be harvested for money. Yes, that is certainly an honorable tradition. I can't wait to teach my children that it is right to hold a life captive cause you can make a buck off of it. I think maybe this weekend I will take my kids to see these feedlots "cull their herds". That is certainly something I want them to respect. NOT.

Since I am rich and have no need to eat food that has not been given steriods, has never been housed in its own filth for its entire life, and is processed by thousand of human hands that could care less about the fact that they are handling my dinner is my due? Thats just wrong.

SweetSecrets

09-02-2004, 06:56 PM

lms2

09-02-2004, 07:43 PM

And there is still Yankee Rose's questions of what does money have to do with it?

Panamark

09-03-2004, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by lms2
And there is still Yankee Rose's questions of what does money have to do with it?

Which to me is the simplest one of all to answer.

Man hunted meat for survival. He had no money or prepackaged
food he could easily purchase. It was total necessity of survival.

Ted not only has enough money to buy whatever food he
wants for his family, but also enough to purchase organic,
free range meats, from chemical and torture free farms..

HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY LEGITIMATE REASON TO KILL A
CREATURE, OTHER THAN HE ENJOYS DOING IT !!

HELLO !!!! "Oh he wants to provide for his family"
By slaughtering an innocent creature in the wild ?????????
When he has money for the most organically produced
environmentally, conservationist, farmed meat that
is available..

You all miss the fucking point. If Ted was living 200
years ago, there would be no argument. I would totally
support this point of view. Im sorry, but he *CAN*
provide for his family without killing one innocent creature.
Money has everything to do with this. Like the Royal
family, who also choose bloodpsort. They do it, becuase
they FUCKING LIKE DOING IT. THEY FUCKING ENJOY THE KILL..

"THE NUGE" loves hunting innocent creatures. I think this
is wrong, some of you think its fine. Ok lets get over
it, but enough of these half-assed excuses for justification
of bloodsport.

I wonder which he enjoys more ? his paedophilia blowjobs
or killing innocent animals in the wild ??????

Yeah, thats it, bring on the defence of the 12 and 14 year
olds he solicited for head jobs.. The animal argument
is getting old, and its obvious some of you will never
get the point that killing for killing's sake is wrong.
No matter how you fucking color it !!

I wonder how those blowjobs provided for his family ???????

HELLVIS

09-03-2004, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
Not a good comparison! Does humanity need the black man as a necessary source of protein?

Please, do you really think I actually equate livestock with " the black man "?
Of course not.
It was just a joke. *laughs low, slow, and monotone*
Maybe a lame joke, but a joke just the same.

My point was, that meat is murder. Period. To eat it , it must be killed.
At some time however, all livestock was wild and free. Then some humans began capturing these animals and holding them captive to await a death sentence. Yum! Then it became commercial, since most people want to eat meat but are afraid to face the reality of the kill. Oh, and did I mention that most people are too lazy to procure their own food, be it vegetable or beast. After centuries of this practice, people have rationalized that this is somehow fair and acceptable behavior. " Damn, it's okay to kill cows and chickens. That's what they's raised for. "

HELLVIS

09-03-2004, 06:37 AM

If I were a tasty animal, I'd rather be free to roam and screw and run and play and maybe be killed by a bullet someday than to be imprisoned awaiting certain doom. But hey, that's just me.

HELLVIS

09-03-2004, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
SweetSecrets takes the stand for the defense of Panamark:

"Mark doesn't have a liking for the death of any innocent creature, you dick-head! He risks his own life dodging cars on freeways in SYDNEY (think....fucking pretty busy traffic!) to save helpless dogs without road sense wandering towards near death.

He is my hero! And I am forever his defender!

:)

Ouch! Dick-head? We're just having a discussion here. I respect and enjoy Panamark's posts. That's why I reply to them. I also happen to like Ted...more reason to reply. I mean no disrespect.
I am however, glad that there are people out there, like you, to protect and defend those who need protecting and defending. ( not that Panamark needs it or anything )

Have a vote you big defender you!

lms2

09-03-2004, 01:43 PM

Panamark, I understand what your answer is saying, I just don't think it answers the question. If I can afford to go to the store and buy clothes made in a sweat shop buy some underprivileged third world preteen, does that mean I can't make my own because I enjoy it?

But thats okay. I really could care less one way or the other on this topic.

Off topic, but just curious... if you were to learn that David Lee had been with a 12 year old when he was 22, would that change your opinion of him, or would it be okay since he doesn't hunt?

SweetSecrets

09-03-2004, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by HELLVIS
Ouch! Dick-head? We're just having a discussion here. I respect and enjoy Panamark's posts. That's why I reply to them. I also happen to like Ted...more reason to reply. I mean no disrespect.
I am however, glad that there are people out there, like you, to protect and defend those who need protecting and defending. ( not that Panamark needs it or anything )

Have a vote you big defender you!

Sorry HELLVIS! I've had a crazy week (lame excuse), and should not have called you a "dick-head." I fully respect your opinions, and I am glad that you share them! :bottle: May the Army prevail! One vote, right back at ya!

(Oh, and about the Panamark thing...I am a bit of a softy for the guy.);)

Panamark

09-04-2004, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by lms2
Panamark, I understand what your answer is saying, I just don't think it answers the question. If I can afford to go to the store and buy clothes made in a sweat shop buy some underprivileged third world preteen, does that mean I can't make my own because I enjoy it?

But thats okay. I really could care less one way or the other on this topic.

Off topic, but just curious... if you were to learn that David Lee had been with a 12 year old when he was 22, would that change your opinion of him, or would it be okay since he doesn't hunt?

LMS, your example does not include murder. That is no comparison
in the context of this argument.

On the off topic one, I think soliciting blowjobs from preteens is
just as evil than murdering defenceless animals in the wild.
(More so !!)

Dave would never do this. But for hypothical's sake, I would
totally disrepect the man if I knew he had done this to a preteen.

lms2

09-04-2004, 09:54 AM

On the sweatshop comment... it is a slow agonizing death. Again, though you are more supportive of "life" whereas my views are based more on quality of life.

Comment on the off topic. Wasn't Dave in a teeny bopper mag flaunting his stuff? So doesn't it make sense that there would be a lot of teeny boppers throwing themselves at him? Every man has his weak spot...

Next question on the off topic. At what "age" does "age" quit making a difference. Though most would agree it is wrong to have any type of sexual relations with a preteen...but most 40 year old men would not pass up the chance to have sexual relations with a 20 year old woman. 20-10, 10 yrs=wrong 40-20, 20 yrs=okay ?????

Big Troubles

09-04-2004, 03:36 PM

Im guessing that's not a wedding band? :D

Panamark

09-04-2004, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by lms2
On the sweatshop comment... it is a slow agonizing death. Again, though you are more supportive of "life" whereas my views are based more on quality of life.

Comment on the off topic. Wasn't Dave in a teeny bopper mag flaunting his stuff? So doesn't it make sense that there would be a lot of teeny boppers throwing themselves at him? Every man has his weak spot...

Next question on the off topic. At what "age" does "age" quit making a difference. Though most would agree it is wrong to have any type of sexual relations with a preteen...but most 40 year old men would not pass up the chance to have sexual relations with a 20 year old woman. 20-10, 10 yrs=wrong 40-20, 20 yrs=okay ?????

Are you for real with your sweatshop comparison ? :D Come on, give
me a better example than that. Although cruel, the people working in
these sweatshops do have the option, not to. Yes I know their
financial situations force them into such barbaric industries, but at the
end of the day they can chose not to work there.

As for your second response, are you kidding me ????

Originally posted by lms2

"Most would agree it is wrong to have any type of sexual relations with a preteen"

*MOST* WTF ?????? I know where I come from *ALL* people would
agree that it was wrong.

Theres no way, you support that shit, I know this.

As for your other example, 40 year old man, 20 year old woman.
The woman is an adult, sexually developed, and doesnt have the
risk of being physcologically fucked for life for performing sexual
acts on a man before she was even a teenager.

I had a 39 year old girlfriend at one stage, when I was 21. Not
far from your comparison in years. She was a very attractive woman
and I can tell you now, there was never a feeling of anything being
wrong.

In the corporate world I have seen many men in their 40's and 50's
end up dating secrataries in their early 20's as girlfriends, and
many get married. Look at your very own glamour industry in the US
(Hollywood) celebrity relationships between older men and younger
women (not girls) is totally acceptable. 15-20 years age difference is
not considered illegal by law, nor is it shunned by society in these
modern times. However, a fully grown man, soliciting blowjobs from
preteen girls is wrong. I dont see how one person here can even
justify that ?

I dont have problems with older men / younger women as most
the parents of people I know, have at least 10 years between
them, 15-20 is nothing these days.Welcome to the new century.
On the flipside I know of many women in their 40's dating guys
in their 20's. I dont get how you can use this as a justification
for paedophilia ??????

LMS, fucking around with children is plain wrong.

I cant fathom any responsible link between those two examples.

Panamark

09-04-2004, 05:23 PM

Oh and as for Dave being in a Teenie publication. Van Halen's management would have been very incompetent not to use
this medium to promote Dave/Van Halen. Its well know that
teenage girls buy the most records. Doesnt mean that Dave is
out there getting blowjobs from little 12 year old girls.

By the way, I know you are a great woman, and would be
horrified by this kind of thing, my answers here are in no
way an assumption that you support such things.

lms2

09-04-2004, 07:58 PM

Of course I dont. I just had to see you get riled up about something besides hunting. ;)

I think I will just drop everything now. :D

tyler412

10-06-2004, 01:11 AM

animals were put on this planet to be eaten , not to have as pets!
IVE EATEN CATS,DOGS, MONKEYS,BEAR,PIGS,ZEBRASAND MANY OTHER ANIMALS IN OUR COUNTRY. GET OVER IT.

NUGENT AND ROTH ARE GODS

Matt White

10-06-2004, 01:22 AM

Uncle TED:
Hunting and 2nd Amendment views=FUCKING RIGHT!!!

MUSIC=BORING!!!
Political Views=???
In light of his recent infidelity scandal, Uncle Ted isn't really qualified to talk about "Family Values", unless it concerns starting 2or 3 families of your own...simultaneously!!!!

DAVE OR THE GRAVE BABY!!!

ashstralia

10-12-2004, 08:57 AM

i'd like to apologise to jacksmar,
for calling him an idiot.
jacksmar, i'm sorry,
your prescence on this website
confirms the fact that you're
not an idiot. (i've read your posts)
we may not agree,
but we're on the same side.
but,
please people, DON'T KILL ANIMALS!!!!!!

jacksmar

10-12-2004, 11:44 AM

Thanks ash.
BUT WHY KILL IF YOU DONT HAVE TO
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/23/Worldandnation/Bambi_in_the_crosshai.shtml
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3955
Species management?

So why kill to eat another innocent animal yourself, when there are millions who have already been butchared for that reason?
We don't hunt to kill, we kill in order to have hunted. Do any of you grow vegetables in your backyard?

Vegans live happy healthy lives.
http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_vegetarianism.html
I don’t know what a vegan is. Do you plant seeds to have a vegan grow in your backyard? A vegetarian eats vegetables on the whole and a vegan is a vegetarian with a political axe to grind. Big difference.

Yankee Rose's questions of what does money have to do with it?
http://www.nrahq.org/hunting/huntdollarsbuy.asp
http://www.api4animals.org/70.htm
Both of the sites make monetary assumptions. But in the US, it comes down to a tax, in it’s simplest form.
And where there’s a tax dollar floating into a US State, there’s a politician with a net and bucket try to spend it.

Just a simple test to see how many of you think. Answer honestly.
If you drive a car, you’re hurting the ????