Commentary: Stimulus is too low, too slow

[Blackflag]

Originally Posted by hideyoursheep

I don't hate Moore. He's much more creative at explaining his POV than his right wing counterparts.

Whew. For a second there, I thought you weren't really as stupid as you seem.

[Blackflag]

Originally Posted by hideyoursheep

What...the...FUCK does that even mean?

I bet you think that a lot when you read.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally Posted by Blackflag

Whew. For a second there, I thought you weren't really as stupid as you seem.

Do I really need to show you YOUR examples of brilliance?

Originally Posted by Blackflag

I bet you think that a lot when you read.

Only your posts.

But if you can explain BT's drivel on your own, feel free. The 2 of you appear to speak the same language.

Only in his (?) case, he's not as regularly ignorant as you.

[Blackflag]

I didn't even read BT's post. I just know I see you here scratching your head a lot.

Reading is hard, isn't it? Dolt.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally Posted by Blackflag

I didn't even read BT's post.

Reading is hard, isn't it?

[Blackflag]

Apparently writing is hard for him, too.

Maybe he can just look at the pretty pictures.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally Posted by Blackflag

Apparently writing is hard for him, too.

Writing?




Idiot.

[Blackflag]

[GAR]

Originally Posted by hideyoursheep

Ah, the culture of instant gratification...

If it doesn't happen immediately, it's not soon enough.

Obama promised nothing past 8 percent unemployment and currently this week in California we just passed 10. So if "we" voted for instant grats, and didn't get them, we should quit wasting money and fuck off with Stimulus 2.0!

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by GAR

Obama promised nothing past 8 percent unemployment and currently this week in California we just passed 10. So if "we" voted for instant grats, and didn't get them, we should quit wasting money and fuck off with Stimulus 2.0!

Actually, he warned that without the stimulus we would hit 8%.

[Nickdfresh]

When?

[ZahZoo]

Originally Posted by Guitar Shark

Tax cuts ARE a form of spending. You just pay for it in future years, like we are doing right now.

I find it amusing that some of you are advocating for more. Crazy.

You'll need to explain the logic behind that statement to me..?

If less of my earned income goes to the government... I have more to spend. That creates more jobs and a better quality of life per dollar than anything the government has to offer or benefit me.

Clearly none of us are getting a reasonable return on our investment into Uncle Sam Co.

Tax cuts have proven to stimulate economic growth... the problem that neither side of the aisle or anyone in Washington seem to get is fiscal management is a critical component... missing from the equation for far, far too many years... no matter who's running the show!!

That shit needs to end. Now!!

[Kristy]

That's all good and well in theory Zoo but the cold reality is tax cuts don't benefit everybody because they don't go to everybody. It's not that none of us are getting a reasonable return as the rich who have been flying under the tax radar for years - particularly during Rethuglican presidencies. There will always be some slub (i.e., the middle class) who has to make up for the slack in terms of basic infrastructure of roads, fire, police, maintaining our prisons and defense budget spending. It would be nice if Uncle Sam gave me a tax break like the rich so I could pay off my student loans and therefore make a down payment on a house but I don't see that happening for at least another 8 - 10 years. If tax cuts do stimulate economic growth then I have yet to see it take place across the spectrum that is the middle class as it does for General Electric or Coca-Cola.

[Big Train]

Originally Posted by Big Train

Taxes are resources. When you free them up, put them in companies and individuals hands, they go to another need, usually a form of direct expense/spending, which stimulates more economic activity. Giving it away to the government, who very slowly and not very well planned out.

I find it odd some people advocate for new taxes (cap and trade), but to each his own I guess.

Let me clarify my own statement, since I was in a bit of a hurry, my kids interrupted me and I hit send.

Giving your money away to the government is the worst thing to stimulate an economy. Since it takes time for them to figure which horrible idea should be funded first, then the time it takes to vote on it, then the time it takes to implement it, the government is the worst route to go to stimulate anything.

Tax cuts always have a more immediate effect.

[ZahZoo]

Originally Posted by Kristy

That's all good and well in theory Zoo but the cold reality is tax cuts don't benefit everybody because they don't go to everybody. It's not that none of us are getting a reasonable return as the rich who have been flying under the tax radar for years - particularly during Rethuglican presidencies. There will always be some slub (i.e., the middle class) who has to make up for the slack in terms of basic infrastructure of roads, fire, police, maintaining our prisons and defense budget spending. It would be nice if Uncle Sam gave me a tax break like the rich so I could pay off my student loans and therefore make a down payment on a house but I don't see that happening for at least another 8 - 10 years. If tax cuts do stimulate economic growth then I have yet to see it take place across the spectrum that is the middle class as it does for General Electric or Coca-Cola.

You're mixing corporations with individuals here... two very different tax laws and structures.

My point was based on individuals paying personal income taxes. I work for a very large, Fortune 10 corporation... "the Company" pays taxes in the $billions. Do they pay their fair share? I don't know and don't want to tackle that one...

Over my career I've worked my ass off to go from minimum wage to now upper middle class... so I know both ends of the spectrum from going from the tax payer group who contributed to 20% of the nations tax bill to the much smaller group now contributing 80%.

When the Bush tax cuts came in my net taxes dropped from about 38% to 28%. The reduction in capital gains taxes enabled me to exercise stock options at a significantly higher gain. Where did all this extra money go? Into buying houses, cars, boats and financing my kid's college educations. Every dollar spent contributed to the post-dot.com bust recovery and also helped build more jobs and paid more taxes on all the crap I bought from it.

Also many of the Bush tax cuts or special stimulous stuff... I didn't get a dime of due to my income levels. Like the one-time $600 check per dependent payout... made too much money to qualify even with 5 kids. Majority of the dependent exemptions most middle class people get... Same thing. They were reduced prorated for every dollar over $110K of income.

I cringe when I hear about the so called "rich" having it easy and benefitting from the previous tax cuts. Don't even get me started on the minimum alternative tax bullshit designed to ensure the "rich" paid their fair share. That cuts real deep into the upper middle class incomes...

[Nitro Express]

The stimulus can create jobs and buy some time but it's not going to solve the real problem which is our trade deficit. America will never recover until it builds and exports goods around the world. That's the only way we can create jobs at every level and bring foreign money in without getting into massive debt. Right now we are just borrowing from foreigners to buy their stuff. The only people who got bailed out were the rich bankers and they aren't going to tell us where the money went. So there is a huge arrogance problem and mix that with masses of pissed off people, inflation, higher taxes with nothing to show for it and you have a fucking mess.

[Nitro Express]

Originally Posted by Kristy

That's all good and well in theory Zoo but the cold reality is tax cuts don't benefit everybody because they don't go to everybody. It's not that none of us are getting a reasonable return as the rich who have been flying under the tax radar for years - particularly during Rethuglican presidencies. There will always be some slub (i.e., the middle class) who has to make up for the slack in terms of basic infrastructure of roads, fire, police, maintaining our prisons and defense budget spending. It would be nice if Uncle Sam gave me a tax break like the rich so I could pay off my student loans and therefore make a down payment on a house but I don't see that happening for at least another 8 - 10 years. If tax cuts do stimulate economic growth then I have yet to see it take place across the spectrum that is the middle class as it does for General Electric or Coca-Cola.

I came out of college with zero debt. I worked my way through and spent the summers working up in Alaska and on demolition crews. Most of the places I made my college money at are now gone. College tuition is at obscene levels compared to when I was paying tuition. One thing people aren't mentioning is inflated costs. People are going into debt for school and medical care. With the technology we have available, school and medical care should actually be cheaper. In the past, the only people who went into debt for school was people going through medical school.

[Nitro Express]

The thing is the population today is too passive. Nobody gets stirred up like they used to. Even the dumb hippies knew their rights and raised hell. Today students take jacked up tuition and debt they will be paying for years up the ass. They bend over and get ass fucked by the the college, the govt., and the banks. The whole gimmick is to keep you in debt for your whole life because those who run the system print the money from nothing. They can create money from nothing, loan it to you and then manipulate you for your whole life trying to pay them back. The govt. and the banks have become one and they don't want solvent people. They make the loans available and the colleges adjust their tuition prices up because of all the loans. Instead of getting angry they take it up the ass like good little Prozac infused drones.

[Nitro Express]

Where are the good old days of strike riots and college campus riots? People used to go ape shit over things and they no longer do. Watergate was nothing compared to what's going on now. There is no passion anymore. No fire. The music sucks and the entertainment sucks. People have morphed into Jabba the Hut type slobs that have no motivation for anything. They just exist.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally Posted by Big Train

it takes time for them to figure which horrible idea should be funded first, then the time it takes to vote on it, then the time it takes to implement it....

Ha!

Sounds like GM!

There is no easy button for the current fiscal situation...I'm not sold on the idea that tax cuts would stimulate anything long term except maybe what it has already stimulated-the Chinese economy.

There's never been such a thing as a tax cut for all tax brackets simultaneously...at least that I'm aware of. Somewhere along the line someone has to pony up more than they should to pay the tab, and usually it's that group that cries foul.

I hate how most of OUR money has been wasted...there's so many ways costs can be cut...and there's always a shadow in the halls of congress whispering to a lawmaker that their need is greater, and lining that lawmakers' pocket.

I totally agree with Zah. Unfortunately for us, our capitalist republic is a pay-to-play-game. There are no real "choices" anymore, it's who has the most money to get their face some TV time, and pay for a campaign. MSNBC and FOX News is a 24/7, 365 days a week campaign ad for the parties they support, and they're useless because their audience is already in that camp.

I say it's time for a campaign "salary cap". everybody involved gets the same amount, and it's pencils drawn at high noon.

While we're at it, start throwing lobbyists into Gitmo under the Patriot Act, as they are a threat to national security.

Good thing I'm not King..

[letsrock]

Originally Posted by sadaist

I think it would have lasted longer than just a quick ripple. If you take your $7k and buy my old car, then I take it and pay someone to finally build that patio cover, he takes it and buys those quads his family has been wanting, the guy who sold the quads takes it and starts up that pool service business he's been wanting to try, the guy that sold the pool route uses it as a down payment on a house, etc.... And all that is just from one $7k check. Imagine the effect 106 million of those checks could have had.

Some people act as if once that money is spent, it's gone. Sure it will get smaller with each transaction as taxes are taken out, but that's just more revenue for the government to do all of these "shovel ready projects". You can't really compare it to when everyone received a $200 - $400 check. That amount just really isn't enough to make a large dent. Hell, a large family can't get out of the grocery store for less than $200.

Exactly.