The union's angle..

[Big Train]

I've been wondering about this, what with all the discussion of "plants" and craziness at town halls. So they don't have to suffer with single payer and they get a 10 billion dollar kickback. 10 Billion isn't a bad haul...Hoffa (Sr.) would be proud.
Hot Air » Blog Archive » Why unions are “Astroturfing” health-care town halls

After enraged constituents started showing up at Congressional town-hall forums to oppose ObamaCare, the unions acted quickly to counterdemonstrate on behalf of the Democratic agenda item. In at least one case, union representatives used violence to intimidate and harrass ObamaCare opponents. The same union, which represents a large percentage of government workers and would be presumably immune from any health-care reform action, issued memos demanding volunteers to “drown out” opposition to ObamaCare. But why?

This report from the Detroit Free Press explains that the unions have a good reason — actually, ten billion good reasons:

Antilabor forces say it’s welfare for the UAW and Democrats’ union allies. Labor supporters say it falls short of what’s needed as tens of thousands of union members are pushed into early retirement as employers cut back health care coverage.

They’re both talking about a $10-billion provision tucked deep inside thousands of pages of health care overhaul bills that could help the UAW’s retiree health-care plan and other union-backed plans.

It would see the government — at least temporarily — pay 80 cents on the dollar to corporate and union insurance plans for claims between $15,000 and $90,000 for retirees age 55 to 64. …

Greg Mourad of the National Right to Work Committee called it “a shameless case of political payback,” saying Democrats and President Barack Obama are trying “to force the rest of us to pay billions to cover those unions’ health care.”

The money will be yet another bailout of Detroit, although the Obama administration and the Democrats have it flying under the radar, buried in HR3200:

Thanks to Detroit’s twin auto bankruptcies and other concessions, the UAW’s voluntary employee benefit association, or VEBA, had to take stock of unknown value for $24 billion in claims, while adding thousands of early retirees to its rolls.

Outside experts estimate the funds have about 30 cents in cash for every dollar of future claims, with no guarantee of what its stock assets will be worth. Lance Wallach, a New York-based VEBA expert, says if the funds “don’t get something, they’re out of business in 12 years.” …

Key provisions in House and Senate proposals set aside $10 billion to pay some claims for early retirees covered by employers and VEBAs, before other cost-saving measures kick in. Critics call it a union giveaway, but the union says the money would keep companies from further slashing coverage.
That’s explicitly a bailout. It comes on the heels of tens of billions of dollars committed to GM and Chrysler, as well as politically-motivated bankruptcies that violated the rights of senior creditors in favor of the unions. The unions have overcommitted and underresourced their health plans, and now Congress wants to surreptitiously bail them out from bankruptcy — all while making them more or less immune from the restrictions in the rest of the bill.

That $10,000,000,000 bailout certainly gives the unions a big incentive to crack heads and intimidate people into retreat on ObamaCare, doesn’t it? That’s the granddaddy of all Astroturfing efforts.

[Big Train]

Care to tell my why you object to this Ford or are you just going to give it the thumbs down? What part of this isn't fact? Who are the "Plants" who wrote the bill? How is the BCE involved? What's Prescott's cut?

[FORD]

There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt. Germany and Japan got decent health care plans after World War II.

The US was supposed to get one at the same time, but Repuke obstructionists blocked it then too. So the Germans and the Japanese went on to make decent cars, not having to worry about administering their employee's health care plans, and they're still doing well.

Now obviously the Detroit auto companies have other issues, but the health care of their employees and retirees is definitely a big slice of their financial pizza. Naturally, the corporatist response to that is "Well then the goddamn unions should give up their health care". Yeah right.... in exchange for what? Because this country (unlike the rest of the fucking civilized world) doesn't have any other options.

Yet.

[WACF]

One of the issues I have with " employee plans" is that when you are no longer employed for whatever reason...downsizing, retirement...whatever....the plan in most cases disapears.

Right now I enjoy a great health plan for drugs, dental ect....it will not last forever.

I like the fact my healthcare is dealt with regardless of my status in the workforce.

My dad is a great example...had a heart attack at 50....then again at 55 with triple bypass...went off on long term disability at 61.

No insurance plan will touch him.

That God for our healthcare.

[Big Train]

Originally Posted by FORD

There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt.

Yes, they sell products people actually are willing to buy. We aren't.

When times were good and they were selling cars, the autoworkers got fantastic health care plans. Even for a long time when they were not selling anything.

So I read your take is it's in the economies best interest to give everyone health care so their employer doesn't have to bear the burden. Which would be great if that burden was elminated, not redirected and added to by giving it to the government.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by FORD

There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt.

Toyota Expects Its First Loss in 70 Years

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/bu.../23toyota.html

Toyota Losing More Money Than GM

Toyota Losing More Money Than GM | theledger.com | The Ledger | Lakeland, FL

[FORD]

Well, as I said, the auto makers have other issues. The fact that Detroit made nothing but gas hog SUV's for most of the last decade, being one of them, and the fact that the BCE's damage to the economy killed all car sales, including those to the foreign owned companies, is obviously going to affect them.

But let's not get off track here or anything. (Funny how you Repukes always want to change the subject)

[Nickdfresh]

As opposed to the health care industry's "angle?"

Less insured. Higher costs. Less national return for far more money spent?

[Big Train]

As opposed indeed. Previous to this, you would have said bullshit. But now it has been put forth. Big pharma is greased in this bill (see my other thread) as well as Big labor. Once we figure out what bit ins. gets out of it, it will be completely exposed.

They have an "interest" in this that they would rather not admit. Which, when you want to get into discussions of plants and Town halls, they would really rather not admit.

They have just as much skin in the game as anyone. A 10 Billion grab if you will.

I'm still trying to figure out the magic savings that are coming from this bill where all I see are cost centers. I suppose that is the "magic" of it.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by FORD

Detroit made nothing but gas hog SUV's for most of the last decade, being one of them,

You mean the ones that millions of middle class families drive? Have you seen a grocery store/shopping mall/elementary school parking lot in the last ten years?

Business 101 - Sell a product that consumers want.

[FORD]

The SUV's (especially the higher end ones) were bought more by Republican tax cheaters than they were by middle class families, due to an obscure tax loophole intended to help family farmers buy tractors and trucks for their businesses. The tax break is for vehicles of a certain weight. Ordinary passenger cars wouldn't make the cut. But these behemoth SUV's did.

Now that there are legitimate tax breaks for hybrids (not to mention the ridiculous price of gas) that scenario has changed a little, but the foreign owned mfg's got one Hell of a head start in the hybrid game. Of course GM chicken-shitted themselves out of the opportunity to dominate the green car market when they pulled the plug (literally) on their pre-Chimp era electric car.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by FORD

The SUV's (especially the higher end ones) were bought more by Republican tax cheaters than they were by middle class families,

Weird. California is predominantly Democrat too. Especially the coastal cities. All I see are these SUV's. These "Republican tax cheaters" are doing a great job disguising themselves as Democrat voting soccer moms.

[Big Train]

So I guess a side ethics question. Is it "OK" for the union to take a bribe, err incentive, from this legislation, where you would condemn Ins. or Big Pharma from doing the same?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted by Big Train

As opposed indeed. Previous to this, you would have said bullshit. But now it has been put forth. Big pharma is greased in this bill (see my other thread) as well as Big labor. Once we figure out what bit ins. gets out of it, it will be completely exposed.

They have an "interest" in this that they would rather not admit. Which, when you want to get into discussions of plants and Town halls, they would really rather not admit.

They have just as much skin in the game as anyone. A 10 Billion grab if you will.

I'm still trying to figure out the magic savings that are coming from this bill where all I see are cost centers. I suppose that is the "magic" of it.

Pharma has also forked over $80 billion thus far because even they realize there's not much use in selling drugs no one can afford. I do resent the way they've tried to buy out any sort of bargaining clauses preventing drugs by the lowest bidder. But at the same time, which "bill" is this "bill" as there are more than one?

And the magic savings are being slowly raped out of this bill special interests holding it up and minimizing any real reform. Instead of getting this out of the way in a couple of years, unfortunately it will take several years of evolution towards a more workable system. But that's fine I guess...

[Big Train]

Well, a real and meanginful start would be the following:

1. We wait on all this town hall business until the "real" bill emerges. That has caused the drop in the President's ratings and the trust of the American people to be eroded as he never had the message entirely under control and unified. The GOP pounced on it as they should to great effect.

2. If you go for single payer, the concept of the "lowest bidder" is somewhat moot.

3. I completely disagree to pass through a system and say it's fine and work on it later. That was the same thinking applied to NAFTA with more than spotty results.

[Nickdfresh]

Does anyone seriously go for single-payer? Most are in favor of actual competition, even if that means they have to compete against a gov't option. Not what we have now --which is essentially legalized collusion with insurance companies making all of the rules...

[Big Train]

ummmm...Ford has a slight preference for it..

[FORD]

It's more than a slight preference. It's the best solution, as proven by every other industrialized nation on the goddamn planet. Single payer MUST be the ultimate goal. But Dr. Howard Dean has a valid point. And not only is he someone whose opinion I respect a lot, but he is also a doctor, as is his wife, so unlike 99.9% of the people fighting reform, he knows what he's talking about.

And that is, that a valid public option would leave it up to the people to choose whether they want a private corporate plan, or a public plan along the lines of Medicare or the VA system. I suspect not many people are happy with their private plans, so that scenario would work itself out in the long run.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by FORD

I suspect not many people are happy with their private plans,

I was very happy with mine. What I was unhappy with was not having the option to keep it after my employment changed.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted by FORD

It's more than a slight preference. It's the best solution, as proven by every other industrialized nation on the goddamn planet. Single payer MUST be the ultimate goal. But Dr. Howard Dean has a valid point. And not only is he someone whose opinion I respect a lot, but he is also a doctor, as is his wife, so unlike 99.9% of the people fighting reform, he knows what he's talking about.

And that is, that a valid public option would leave it up to the people to choose whether they want a private corporate plan, or a public plan along the lines of Medicare or the VA system. I suspect not many people are happy with their private plans, so that scenario would work itself out in the long run.

And Dr. Dean is against a single-payer system...

The problem that we both have is that the current system is little more than a parochial oligopoly...

[FORD]

I'm fine with the public option as Dr. Dean has explained it, but I don't trust certain senators to mean the same thing when THEY say "public option". Some of these DLC types sure changed their mind about a public option recently, and it wasn't because they suddenly remembered they were supposed to be Democrats. They're trying to mutate this into some fucking national Romneycare thing, probably, which would be WORSE than what we have now.

So Dean's public option, yes. Chuck Schumer's "public option"?? probably not.

[FORD]

Originally Posted by sadaist

I was very happy with mine. What I was unhappy with was not having the option to keep it after my employment changed.

And there's the main reason employer based health care sucks. You had a decent plan, but it was totally dependent on your job. That shouldn't be the case. Especially for those who don't "change" jobs but rather lose theirs (which is a lot of people at the moment). Sure there's "COBRA" coverage, but it's usually twice what you paid for it on the job, and that don't cut it on unemployment.

[WACF]

Originally Posted by sadaist

I was very happy with mine. What I was unhappy with was not having the option to keep it after my employment changed.

And that is why the insurance plan idea is the wrong approach.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by FORD

Sure there's "COBRA" coverage, but it's usually twice what you paid for it on the job, and that don't cut it on unemployment.

Hell, it was more like 5 times what I was paying. COBRA is fucking expensive. And cutting it on unemployment, a PB & J barely cuts it on unemployment.

On a side note, peanut butter & jelly sandwiches are fucking awesome. Hadn't had one since can't remember when. A few weeks ago didn't feel like going out & that was all there was at home. Dayum! nomnomnomnom

Sorry, I tend to get sidetracked a lot lately with my ever aging mind. Aren't I supposed to be losing a fight with Bueno Bob somewhere?

[jhale667]

Originally Posted by sadaist

Hell, it was more like 5 times what I was paying. COBRA is fucking expensive. And cutting it on unemployment, a PB & J barely cuts it on unemployment.

True.

[Blackflag]

Originally Posted by sadaist

Hell, it was more like 5 times what I was paying. COBRA is fucking expensive. And cutting it on unemployment, a PB & J barely cuts it on unemployment.

The cost of Cobra is just the real cost of the insurance that your employer was paying. So you can continue to keep your insurance, it's just that you have to pay for it, because your employer isn't contributing any more.

There's no magical formula to making the insurance cheaper. You may be able to cut a little here or there, but the cost of a doctor is the cost of a doctor. But what you want is for someone to flat-out pay for your insurance for you if you're unemployed. And that's bullshit.

If you want insurance when you're unemployed, I offer you three choices: save your cash while you're working and resist the temptation of that shiny red pickup, get another job, or go without. Another option to get cheap, basic insurance while you're looking for another job. Maybe you just can't afford the high-line insurance if you don't have an employer willing to help you pay the premium.

In sum, you lazy redneck fuckers need to give up on your dream of having another taxpayer pay your way through life. Ford's had the welfare dream his whole life, and look where it's gotten him: fat, disgruntled, and stupid. Look where it got JHale - he became the boy who cries racism.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted by Blackflag

The cost of Cobra is just the real cost of the insurance that your employer was paying. So you can continue to keep your insurance, it's just that you have to pay for it, because your employer isn't contributing any more.

There's no magical formula to making the insurance cheaper. You may be able to cut a little here or there, but the cost of a doctor is the cost of a doctor. But what you want is for someone to flat-out pay for your insurance for you if you're unemployed. And that's bullshit.

If you want insurance when you're unemployed, I offer you three choices: save your cash while you're working and resist the temptation of that shiny red pickup, get another job, or go without. Another option to get cheap, basic insurance while you're looking for another job. Maybe you just can't afford the high-line insurance if you don't have an employer willing to help you pay the premium.

In sum, you lazy redneck fuckers need to give up on your dream of having another taxpayer pay your way through life. Ford's had the welfare dream his whole life, and look where it's gotten him: fat, disgruntled, and stupid. Look where it got JHale - he became the boy who cries racism.

^^Libertardian dickheads. Doing more for the public option than Ford, or Dr. Dean for that matter, ever could!

[Nitro Express]

I guess the Rappers who drove Escalades were Rupublican tax cheats. That Damn Snoop Dog had a hard on for Bush.

[WACF]

Originally Posted by Blackflag

The cost of Cobra is just the real cost of the insurance that your employer was paying. So you can continue to keep your insurance, it's just that you have to pay for it, because your employer isn't contributing any more.

There's no magical formula to making the insurance cheaper. You may be able to cut a little here or there, but the cost of a doctor is the cost of a doctor. But what you want is for someone to flat-out pay for your insurance for you if you're unemployed. And that's bullshit.

If you want insurance when you're unemployed, I offer you three choices: save your cash while you're working and resist the temptation of that shiny red pickup, get another job, or go without. Another option to get cheap, basic insurance while you're looking for another job. Maybe you just can't afford the high-line insurance if you don't have an employer willing to help you pay the premium.

In sum, you lazy redneck fuckers need to give up on your dream of having another taxpayer pay your way through life. Ford's had the welfare dream his whole life, and look where it's gotten him: fat, disgruntled, and stupid. Look where it got JHale - he became the boy who cries racism.

Quite frankly...

You would be better off taking the higher wage...seeing as how employer payed insurance is basically part of your wage package.

When your employment ends...you lose the insurance with your wage.

So...you would be further ahead taking a higher wage...letting the gov. rasie the tax rate to pay for single payor...and you are always covered...as would your family...forever.

[sadaist]

Originally Posted by Nitro Express

I guess the Rappers who drove Escalades were Rupublican tax cheats. That Damn Snoop Dog had a hard on for Bush.

Mike Myers is classic in this.