Mythbusting

**Big Train** · 09-30-2009, 04:18 PM

Hot Air » Blog Archive » Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion funding

Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion fundingposted at 2:18 pm on September 30, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

During his speech to Congress, Barack Obama derided the notion that ObamaCare would pay for abortions and for health insurance for illegal immigrants as “false”, a “misunderstanding” spread by opponents who wanted to derail his efforts to reinvent the American health-care system:

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up – under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.

Charles Grassley and Orrin Hatch took Obama at his word — and discovered that Democrats have a much different plan than what Obama said three weeks ago today. Hatch offered an amendment to the Baucus plan in the Senate Finance Committee that would have required that no plan receiving federal funding pay for abortions. It failed, 10-13, on almost a party-line vote:

The Senate Finance Committee rejected an amendment to its healthcare bill Wednesday that would have required women to purchase a separate, supplemental insurance plan to cover abortion services.
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) proposed the amendment with the goal of making existing laws against federal money being used to pay for abortions, and the language in the healthcare bill, ironclad.

“All I’m asking — my gosh — is for specific language in the bill that prohibits federal dollars from being used to fund abortions,” Hatch said. …

Democrats on the committee, along with pro-abortion-rights Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe (Maine) rejected Hatch’s argument, saying it would be unfair to require women to purchase separate insurance coverage for abortion services. Such a requirement, Snowe said, would raise privacy issues by asking women to anticipate their need for abortion coverage.

Kent Conrad (D-ND) crossed over to support Hatch’s amendment.

Baucus argued that the existing Hyde Amendment and other rules in his new plan would keep federal money from flowing to abortions. However, the Hyde Amendment only covers monies distributed in HHS appropriations; any other funds used in ObamaCare would not be subject to its restrictions.

As Hatch argued in his effort to pass the amendment, the Baucus bill establishes a “segregation” of federal subsidies from premiums paid by policyholders in order to argue that it would be the latter that would fund abortion coverage. That’s simply absurd. In that arrangement, the funds are completely fungible, since the policyholder would merge them to pay the single bill. The government would still be giving funds to insurers through the policyholder that would go towards abortions.

Afterward, it was Grassley’s turn for disillusionment:

Senate Finance Committee Democrats rejected a proposed a requirement that immigrants prove their identity with photo identification when signing up for health insurance or tax credits under healthcare reform.

Finance Committee ranking member Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said that current law and the healthcare bill under consideration are too lax and leave the door open to illegal immigrants defrauding the government using false or stolen identities to obtain benefits.

Grassley’s amendment was beaten back 10-13 on a party-line vote.
Will Obama demand that Democrats quit contributing to mythmaking? I’m not holding my breath.

**sadaist** · 09-30-2009, 05:59 PM

you lie!!!

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 01:26 AM

Here's a myth that needs busting......

The piece of shit bill that Max BlueCross, Cunt Co-op, and those other blue-balled DLC cowards wrote is NOT the plan that will pass, nor is it it the plan that is favored by the overwhelming majority of the American people.

So don't worry about right wing bullshit spreading about something that is itself, right wing bullshit.

**Nickdfresh** · 10-01-2009, 07:23 AM

You mean myths like Republican politicians being against illegal immigration?

**Big Train** · 10-01-2009, 11:18 AM

Touche Nick....

However, at least they had a raid occasionally and some deportation and fines resulted.

This "walk away" policy is pure bullshit.

**Big Train** · 10-01-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

Here's a myth that needs busting......

The piece of shit bill that Max BlueCross, Cunt Co-op, and those other blue-balled DLC cowards wrote is NOT the plan that will pass, nor is it it the plan that is favored by the overwhelming majority of the American people.

So don't worry about right wing bullshit spreading about something that is itself, right wing bullshit.

I didn't realize you had a line into Congress Ford...

With Rep. Honda the other day OPENLY saying they deserve healthcare, no mechanism to actively deny them on documentation reasons and the softening of the enforcement policies, it does not take a crystal ball to see which road we are on here...

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 12:05 PM

Everyone deserves healthcare. You can argue all day whether or not somebody belongs in the country, but would you let them bleed to death? Or (to use current media hype) spread the dreaded swine flu??

It's a completely separate issue from whether or not cheapskate employers keep hiring them to do GAyR's job.

**Big Train** · 10-01-2009, 01:40 PM

Healthcare everyone deserves? I would say EMERGENCY CARE, like literal bleeding, enough to patch you up and get you back where you belong yes. That is humanitarian. Sending kids to the dentist who aren't legal residents, no, sorry.

It's not a separate issue, it is in fact FURTHER incentive to come to this country.

**sadaist** · 10-01-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

Everyone deserves healthcare.

If the government is going to provide health care to everyone, shouldn't they begin recruiting, teaching, and giving salaries to health care workers as government employees? Much like a military. I mean, people pay to have themselves educated to become a doctor. If the government is going to start giving away the services that you spent so much money to learn, shouldn't they pay for the education?

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Train

Healthcare everyone deserves? I would say EMERGENCY CARE, like literal bleeding, enough to patch you up and get you back where you belong yes. That is humanitarian. Sending kids to the dentist who aren't legal residents, no, sorry.

It's not a separate issue, it is in fact FURTHER incentive to come to this country.

Actually it's not. I read recently that you can get complete healthcare coverage in Mexico (dental included) for $200/year. So in that respect, they're better off staying home. Except when you don't have money, even $200 is too much. Hence the reason they jump the border to begin with.

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadaist

If the government is going to provide health care to everyone, shouldn't they begin recruiting, teaching, and giving salaries to health care workers as government employees? Much like a military. I mean, people pay to have themselves educated to become a doctor. If the government is going to start giving away the services that you spent so much money to learn, shouldn't they pay for the education?

Well, if the government actually DID take over the hospitals and ran everything like the VA system, then that would probably be the case.

But that isn't what's being proposed, even by the Conyers/Kucinich bill HR 676, or by the senate bill that Ted Kennedy wrote in 2007. These bills would expand Medicare as a single payer system for all.

Government would take over the insurance part of the picture. Not the hospitals. Not the clinics. Not the doctors.

There is no proposal on the table from anyone (to my knowledge) to nationalize hospitals. And I don't believe that's necessary.

**sadaist** · 10-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

I read recently that you can get complete healthcare coverage in Mexico (dental included) for $200/year.

Actually, many people cross the border to Tijuana for dental work. And it's actually pretty good work at very cheap prices. I haven't personally done it, but my sister has a couple times. Never had a problem. But then again, it's a huge border city that gets tourist money (or used to anyways). It's highly possible that most other parts of Mexico have crap for dental work.

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 02:34 PM

Probably true enough that the larger cities in Mexico would have better options than a remote rural area. But then, that's just as true on this side of the border.

**Big Train** · 10-01-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

Actually it's not. I read recently that you can get complete healthcare coverage in Mexico (dental included) for $200/year. So in that respect, they're better off staying home. Except when you don't have money, even $200 is too much. Hence the reason they jump the border to begin with.

Just what the definition of "complete coverage" is DRASTICALLY different. My wife's uncle just past away from cancer. At a certain point, they just said "Go Home". If you need blood there, there is a charge unless your family donates it.

**ZahZoo** · 10-01-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

Everyone deserves healthcare. You can argue all day whether or not somebody belongs in the country, but would you let them bleed to death?

Yes. Simple enough...

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Train

Just what the definition of "complete coverage" is DRASTICALLY different. My wife's uncle just past away from cancer. At a certain point, they just said "Go Home". If you need blood there, there is a charge unless your family donates it.

First of all, my condolences on your loss. Lost a few people to cancer this decade myself

And given observations of that, unfortunately, I can also say that there comes a time when any cancer "treatment" amounts to little more than prolonging the suffering. If a treatment isn't doing a damn thing for the patient's quality of life, is there really a point to doing it at all? If there isn't, then maybe telling them to "go home" is a sensible decision. With reasonable accommodations, like pain management, hospice care, etc. Not sure what the status of hospice care is in Mexico, I'll admit.

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZahZoo

Yes. Simple enough...

And let's say you were visiting Canada and got trampled by a herd of stampeding moose (or hockey fans). Would you apply the same to yourself?

**Big Train** · 10-01-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

First of all, my condolences on your loss. Lost a few people to cancer this decade myself

And given observations of that, unfortunately, I can also say that there comes a time when any cancer "treatment" amounts to little more than prolonging the suffering. If a treatment isn't doing a damn thing for the patient's quality of life, is there really a point to doing it at all? If there isn't, then maybe telling them to "go home" is a sensible decision. With reasonable accommodations, like pain management, hospice care, etc. Not sure what the status of hospice care is in Mexico, I'll admit.

I thank you. We have lost far too many people to cancer.

My point is they were charging for BLOOD. On top of that, there is no early detection there, no care of any kind until it is obvious and by that point it's too late. The 200 bucks is not a deal in that type of serious situation.

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 04:08 PM

Yeah, the focus of any decent health care system should be on prevention where ever possible. But then of course, that wouldn't be profitable. Especially for the pharmaceutical companies. Maybe Sadie had the right idea after all? Turning it ALL over to the government - insurance, hospitals, drug companies. NONE of it run for profit anymore. Long term, it's probably the best thing for the country. But for the short term, I'd be fine with just the insurance vampires being taken out of the equation.

As for the blood thing in Mexico, sounds like they need to get a decent blood bank network set up there? Admittedly, I've never been anywhere south of TJ or Nogales, so I'm hardly the expert on any aspect of Mexican healthcare.

**ZahZoo** · 10-01-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

And let's say you were visiting Canada and got trampled by a herd of stampeding moose (or hockey fans). Would you apply the same to yourself?

No. I checked... have good insurance with a national providor and they cover me while traveling abroad. So... I'd be no financial burden on those crazy canadians.

**Va Beach VH Fan** · 10-01-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORD

(or hockey fans)

Watch it, buddy....

**FORD** · 10-01-2009, 09:23 PM

Ever seen the movie "Canadian Bacon"??

Michael Moore's only non-documentary movie. It's the story of a fictional war between the US and Canada. Guess where the hostilities begin?

Yep..... at a hockey game. Though it's actually a beer joke, rather than a hockey joke that kicks it off.

09-30-2009, 04:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
Big Train Full Member Status Join Date: Apr 2004 Member Number: 3741 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 4,011 Thanks: 63 Thanked 92 Times in 76 Posts Groans: 28 Groaned at 53 Times in 43 Posts Rep Power: 10 Last Online: 11-24-2009 10:21 PM	Mythbusting Hot Air » Blog Archive » Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion funding Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion fundingposted at 2:18 pm on September 30, 2009 by Ed Morrissey During his speech to Congress, Barack Obama derided the notion that ObamaCare would pay for abortions and for health insurance for illegal immigrants as “false”, a “misunderstanding” spread by opponents who wanted to derail his efforts to reinvent the American health-care system: There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up – under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place. Charles Grassley and Orrin Hatch took Obama at his word — and discovered that Democrats have a much different plan than what Obama said three weeks ago today. Hatch offered an amendment to the Baucus plan in the Senate Finance Committee that would have required that no plan receiving federal funding pay for abortions. It failed, 10-13, on almost a party-line vote: The Senate Finance Committee rejected an amendment to its healthcare bill Wednesday that would have required women to purchase a separate, supplemental insurance plan to cover abortion services. Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) proposed the amendment with the goal of making existing laws against federal money being used to pay for abortions, and the language in the healthcare bill, ironclad. “All I’m asking — my gosh — is for specific language in the bill that prohibits federal dollars from being used to fund abortions,” Hatch said. … Democrats on the committee, along with pro-abortion-rights Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe (Maine) rejected Hatch’s argument, saying it would be unfair to require women to purchase separate insurance coverage for abortion services. Such a requirement, Snowe said, would raise privacy issues by asking women to anticipate their need for abortion coverage. Kent Conrad (D-ND) crossed over to support Hatch’s amendment. Baucus argued that the existing Hyde Amendment and other rules in his new plan would keep federal money from flowing to abortions. However, the Hyde Amendment only covers monies distributed in HHS appropriations; any other funds used in ObamaCare would not be subject to its restrictions. As Hatch argued in his effort to pass the amendment, the Baucus bill establishes a “segregation” of federal subsidies from premiums paid by policyholders in order to argue that it would be the latter that would fund abortion coverage. That’s simply absurd. In that arrangement, the funds are completely fungible, since the policyholder would merge them to pay the single bill. The government would still be giving funds to insurers through the policyholder that would go towards abortions. Afterward, it was Grassley’s turn for disillusionment: Senate Finance Committee Democrats rejected a proposed a requirement that immigrants prove their identity with photo identification when signing up for health insurance or tax credits under healthcare reform. Finance Committee ranking member Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said that current law and the healthcare bill under consideration are too lax and leave the door open to illegal immigrants defrauding the government using false or stolen identities to obtain benefits. Grassley’s amendment was beaten back 10-13 on a party-line vote. Will Obama demand that Democrats quit contributing to mythmaking? I’m not holding my breath.

09-30-2009, 05:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
sadaist The Menace Is Loose Again Full Member Status Join Date: Jul 2004 Member Number: 6381 Location: So CA Age: 38 Posts: 4,255 Thanks: 248 Thanked 470 Times in 319 Posts Groans: 12 Groaned at 58 Times in 50 Posts Rep Power: 15 Last Online: Today 10:15 AM	you lie!!! __________________ “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

10-01-2009, 01:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
FORD YEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Jan 2004 Member Number: 32 Location: Cascadia Posts: 30,187 Thanks: 786 Thanked 1,180 Times in 869 Posts Groans: 403 Groaned at 163 Times in 155 Posts Rep Power: 49 Last Online: Today 04:58 AM	Here's a myth that needs busting...... The piece of shit bill that Max BlueCross, Cunt Co-op, and those other blue-balled DLC cowards wrote is NOT the plan that will pass, nor is it it the plan that is favored by the overwhelming majority of the American people. So don't worry about right wing bullshit spreading about something that is itself, right wing bullshit. __________________ Eat Us And Smile Listen to the Mike Malloy show, and hear the truth. 6: 00 PM Pacific/9: 00 Eastern "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." ~Thomas Jefferson

10-01-2009, 07:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
Nickdfresh Can't get this no mo' ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Oct 2004 Member Number: 8719 Location: Buffalo, NY Age: 39 Posts: 31,402 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 290 Thanked 841 Times in 651 Posts Groans: 17 Groaned at 152 Times in 138 Posts Images: 1 Rep Power: 46 Last Online: Today 08:37 AM	You mean myths like Republican politicians being against illegal immigration? __________________ "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." --Ben Franklin

10-01-2009, 12:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
FORD YEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Jan 2004 Member Number: 32 Location: Cascadia Posts: 30,187 Thanks: 786 Thanked 1,180 Times in 869 Posts Groans: 403 Groaned at 163 Times in 155 Posts Rep Power: 49 Last Online: Today 04:58 AM	Everyone deserves healthcare. You can argue all day whether or not somebody belongs in the country, but would you let them bleed to death? Or (to use current media hype) spread the dreaded swine flu?? It's a completely separate issue from whether or not cheapskate employers keep hiring them to do GAyR's job. __________________ Eat Us And Smile Listen to the Mike Malloy show, and hear the truth. 6: 00 PM Pacific/9: 00 Eastern "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." ~Thomas Jefferson

10-01-2009, 11:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
Big Train Full Member Status Join Date: Apr 2004 Member Number: 3741 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 4,011 Thanks: 63 Thanked 92 Times in 76 Posts Groans: 28 Groaned at 53 Times in 43 Posts Rep Power: 10 Last Online: 11-24-2009 10:21 PM	Touche Nick.... However, at least they had a raid occasionally and some deportation and fines resulted. This "walk away" policy is pure bullshit.

10-01-2009, 01:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
Big Train Full Member Status Join Date: Apr 2004 Member Number: 3741 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 4,011 Thanks: 63 Thanked 92 Times in 76 Posts Groans: 28 Groaned at 53 Times in 43 Posts Rep Power: 10 Last Online: 11-24-2009 10:21 PM	Healthcare everyone deserves? I would say EMERGENCY CARE, like literal bleeding, enough to patch you up and get you back where you belong yes. That is humanitarian. Sending kids to the dentist who aren't legal residents, no, sorry. It's not a separate issue, it is in fact FURTHER incentive to come to this country.

10-01-2009, 02:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
FORD YEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Jan 2004 Member Number: 32 Location: Cascadia Posts: 30,187 Thanks: 786 Thanked 1,180 Times in 869 Posts Groans: 403 Groaned at 163 Times in 155 Posts Rep Power: 49 Last Online: Today 04:58 AM	Probably true enough that the larger cities in Mexico would have better options than a remote rural area. But then, that's just as true on this side of the border. __________________ Eat Us And Smile Listen to the Mike Malloy show, and hear the truth. 6: 00 PM Pacific/9: 00 Eastern "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." ~Thomas Jefferson

10-01-2009, 04:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
FORD YEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Jan 2004 Member Number: 32 Location: Cascadia Posts: 30,187 Thanks: 786 Thanked 1,180 Times in 869 Posts Groans: 403 Groaned at 163 Times in 155 Posts Rep Power: 49 Last Online: Today 04:58 AM	Yeah, the focus of any decent health care system should be on prevention where ever possible. But then of course, that wouldn't be profitable. Especially for the pharmaceutical companies. Maybe Sadie had the right idea after all? Turning it ALL over to the government - insurance, hospitals, drug companies. NONE of it run for profit anymore. Long term, it's probably the best thing for the country. But for the short term, I'd be fine with just the insurance vampires being taken out of the equation. As for the blood thing in Mexico, sounds like they need to get a decent blood bank network set up there? Admittedly, I've never been anywhere south of TJ or Nogales, so I'm hardly the expert on any aspect of Mexican healthcare. __________________ Eat Us And Smile Listen to the Mike Malloy show, and hear the truth. 6: 00 PM Pacific/9: 00 Eastern "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." ~Thomas Jefferson

10-01-2009, 09:23 PM	#22 (permalink)
FORD YEEEEAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! ROTH ARMY MODERATOR Join Date: Jan 2004 Member Number: 32 Location: Cascadia Posts: 30,187 Thanks: 786 Thanked 1,180 Times in 869 Posts Groans: 403 Groaned at 163 Times in 155 Posts Rep Power: 49 Last Online: Today 04:58 AM	Ever seen the movie "Canadian Bacon"?? Michael Moore's only non-documentary movie. It's the story of a fictional war between the US and Canada. Guess where the hostilities begin? Yep..... at a hockey game. Though it's actually a beer joke, rather than a hockey joke that kicks it off. __________________ Eat Us And Smile Listen to the Mike Malloy show, and hear the truth. 6: 00 PM Pacific/9: 00 Eastern "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." ~Thomas Jefferson

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