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Thread: File Sharing May Increase Record Sales

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    File Sharing May Increase Record Sales

    File sharing may boost CD sales
    Study defies traditional beliefs about Internet use
    By Beth Potier
    Harvard News Office

    As sales of recorded music drop precipitously, the music industry has pointed a blaming finger at the dramatic growth of file sharing among individuals who search, share, and download music files from each other. Surely if consumers can get their favorite songs for free, the reasoning goes, they're not making tracks to the nearest record store to pay $18 for a CD.

    Think again, says Felix Oberholzer-Gee, associate professor at Harvard Business School. In a recent study, Oberholzer-Gee found that sharing digital music files has no effect on CD sales. "It's a finding that surprised us," he says. "We just couldn't document a negative relationship between file sharing and music sales."

    Oberholzer-Gee and co-author Koleman Strumpf of the University of North Carolina accessed data directly from file-sharing servers and observed 1.75 million downloads during a 17-week period in fall 2002. "Our key advantage is that we have much better data than anybody else who worked in this subject," says Oberholzer-Gee. Most other research on the market impact of file sharing has relied on survey data. Asking people to self-report about what is, after all, illegal activity almost never produces reliably truthful answers, he says.

    Oberholzer-Gee and Strumpf's study used statistical models to compare downloads of songs from 680 popular albums in a variety of styles with the actual sales of those albums, as reported to Nielsen SoundScan, the industry's leading sales tracker. The researchers statistically analyzed whether the sale of an album declined more strongly in relation to the frequency and volume of downloaded songs from that album. In one week, for instance, they saw a spike in downloads of songs from the soundtrack to the film "Eight Mile." They would chart sales data for that CD in the following weeks to see if the download activity caused sales to decline.

    It didn't, they were stunned to find. "This is where we cannot document any relationship between file sharing and subsequent sales," says Oberholzer-Gee, calling the effect "statistically indistinguishable from zero."


    Music to record industry's ears?

    In fact, the study found that for the most popular albums - the top 25 percent that had more than 600,000 sales - file sharing actually boosts sales. For every 150 songs downloaded, the study showed, sales jumped by one CD. For the least popular 25 percent of the sample, "we found a more pronounced negative effect," says Oberholzer-Gee. Despite predictions that the Internet would level the playing field of the music industry, giving consumers equal access to obscure, independently produced artists as to chart-topping pop darlings, music downloads parallels music sales.

    "When you look at what the music people are sharing online, it's very much like looking at radio," he says. Not coincidentally, the early days of music radio brought similar fears that consumers would not purchase records they could listen to for free.

    For the record industry, Oberholzer-Gee argues, this research brings great news. "[File sharing] is not as dangerous as many have believed. The music industry's ability to influence what people listen to seems almost unbroken," says Oberholzer-Gee, adding that the study found that industry marketing - video play on MTV, for instance - seems to affect downloads as well as CD sales.

    Still, the duo's research has not been music to the industry's ears. The Recording Industry Association of America, the U.S. music industry trade group, has rejected the study's findings and clings to its assertion that file sharing is chipping away at CD sales, which are, undeniably, suffering.

    Oberholzer-Gee poses several theories on the slack pace of music sales, from what he calls the "CD replacement boom" winding down as older listeners finish replacing their vinyl with CDs, to the poor economic climate, to the rising price of CDs. Despite his and Strumpf's initial surprise at the results of their study, he says, it makes clear economic sense that every download does not displace a CD sale.

    "Observing that people consume lots and lots at a price of zero dollars makes sense to an economist," he says. If someone offered him a free plane ticket to Florida, he offers, he'd be poolside in a heartbeat. For $250 roundtrip, he'd think harder about how much he wanted to fly south. "At $18, we're being lots more selective than at zero dollars."


    Emotions meet economics

    Although he is a music fan, Oberholzer-Gee says that economic inquiry rather than musical passion drove this research. As the proliferation of digital media - and the ease of disseminating it - drives the discussion of property rights into the courts, economists are taking notice. The fine line between granting sufficient protection of intellectual property to spur creation yet not such stringent protection that market forces will be choked is as important to economists as to lawyers, he says.

    One such lawyer looking closely at property rights in the digital age is Jonathan Zittrain, the Berkman Assistant Professor for Entrepreneurial Legal Studies at Harvard Law School and co-director of the Law School's Berkman Center for Internet and Society. He gives the study high marks for bringing rigorous empirical research to what he calls an important public policy issue. "Making generalizations about Internet use is tricky, and Felix has identified and dealt with the pitfalls in a way well suited to peer scrutiny - while still accessible to industry, government, and the public, all of whom have important interests within the battles over digital property protection," says Zittrain.

    Oberholzer-Gee is also hopeful that the study's robust data will inform the music industry as it struggles to tame the digital media beast. Until now, the industry has resorted to shots in the dark.

    "One of the motivations to do this study was that the debate is emotionally very charged," he says, in part because of the scarcity of factual data on the subject. "We were struck by the fact that so much is at stake and yet we knew so little. It's very important to get this right."

    beth_potier@harvard.edu

    http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...lesharing.html
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 11-20-2004 at 10:52 PM.

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    surprise, surprise...
    Twistin' by the pool.

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    ABC's Nightline did a program on Harvard's research. They found that the stars that has the most downloads of their music also sold the most music. Things are not always as they appear on the surface.

    I've downloaded a major artist from this site, and you know what? I can't wait to buy the album Tuesday!
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 11-20-2004 at 11:00 PM.

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    There ya go

    A lot of the stuff I've gotten online I've already paid for, repeatedly; I can't tell you how many times I'd be forced to make a run to a pawn shop with 40 CDs to raise a couple bucks and 6 months down the road I was sitting around saying "God DAMMIT, why did I hawk that album?!?!?", only to rush out and buy it AGAIN...repeat situation 5-6 months down to the road...

    If I download and burn something, it's something that I've bought out of the store 4-5 times already, if not more. I don't download & burn anything new.

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    I also downloaded the ENTIRE new U2 cd last week...and I am going to buy it on Tuesday as well...

    Maybe the record companies need to realize that the reason record sales have slipped in the last 6-7 years is that they keep pumping out unlistenable GARBAGE!
    Maybe this is what a heroine addict feels like after getting a long awaited fix, shooting up in the corner of some abandoned building and just not giving a fuck about what the rest of the world thinks...TATTOO"

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    It's an industry fixated on first releases from artists, with no support for second and third albums by said artists...

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    They keep shooting themselves in the foot with a bad business plan, and then blaming the internet for shitty sales...

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    And the artists they spend gobs of money on are the ones they promote the most as the flag ship product (i.e. Brittany Spears) actually lose money since the only thing they sell are shitty pop hits, which are easily downloadable, on really shitty albums with a lot of "filler" on them that nobody wants to hear. So of course someone will download "Baby, Baby" or whatever, but the rest of the album sure as hell isn't "Harvest Moon."

    Also, what about sound? The record companies could launch and promote new products that sound much better than CD's (which do sound better like the improvements noticeable on the "remasters") and that would be more difficult to reproduce with downloads and burns. But all the efforts sputter due to lack of promotion. Both CD-Superaudio and DVD Audio are failing due to lack of support and emphasis.

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    Add me to the list of those buying that certain "major artist" CD on Tuesday. Just like I bought their last album the day it was released, despite having a download version 6 weeks in advance.

    Oh, and I had the Achtung Baby Demos 9 months before the album came out. Bought that one on time too.

    FUCK THE RIAA!
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    If it wasn't for the internet and MP3 trading, I wouldn't be into (and buying) a substantial portion of my present listening fare. The RIAA and the Music Industry really needs to wise the fuck up and get with the program. The more they cling to their outmoded strategies, the more their sales will drop. It's just that simple.

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    OK,

    Where does one start with this piece of shit research?

    The first thing I would argue is that filesharing DOES NOT increase sales at all. IF we are too use an actual model that makes sense, not the convienent one chosen by the study's author, it would be clearer. For example, he states that for every 150 downloads, 1 cd is purchased. First off thats a shitty rate for ANYTHING your trying to sell (Buy 1, get 149 free!!), but it is also apples to oranges. As my friend Nick said above:

    And the artists they spend gobs of money on are the ones they promote the most as the flag ship product (i.e. Brittany Spears) actually lose money since the only thing they sell are shitty pop hits, which are easily downloadable, on really shitty albums with a lot of "filler" on them that nobody wants to hear.

    So in essence, the product they are WILLING to pay for (i.e. The single, which can be purchased in a physical or digital-Itunes-formats) should be taken for free because the CD as a whole is not worthy of purchase. Thats like people stealing the rims cause they didn't like the whole car and asking the dealer to put on new rims for the next person who may also steal them. In order to understand our side of it, you need to compare it to other products in the physical world where these insane standards would NEVER apply.

    In reality, to us, is 150 lost single sales.

    The points about CD pricing may be valid. We pay too much for everything, which is why we charge too much. However, MOST new releases you can get for about 10 bucks at Tower and certainly the big box chains (Best Buy, Walmart), so it doesn't hold much water with me.

    I'll cover other things in other posts.

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    File sharing allows one to explore music that that they wouldn't necessiarily purchase at random...

    Half of my newest CD's I purchased after first downloading MP3 samples of the material...
    Last edited by ELVIS; 11-22-2004 at 02:36 AM.

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    Elvis, that theory is FINE by me, it's promotion, IF it's streaming. THAT'S radio. All the major sites selling downloads give you 30 second samples of EVERY track, so there is no logic in that giving it away makes any kind of sense.

    AGAIN (I don't mean to be preachy, but after losing a few jobs over the last few years, I'm TOUCHY), compare it to the PHYSICAL WORLD. What you just described is what I call the "window shopping theory". You look and are exposed to things that you would not be aware of in the world walking down the street. However, if you get the product in the process of "window shopping" in the physical world, they call it "looting". Tell me the difference...
    Last edited by Big Train; 11-22-2004 at 02:42 AM.

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    plus all the donkey porn

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    Train, the bottom line is that if you want to sell albums, you need to make good albums. And there's been maybe two or three out for this whole worthless year.

    You guys need to stop investing all of your money in the insulting bullshit being pumped from record companies like it's a god-damn commodity like oil or steel.

    Any counter to this point will require you to tell me how a piece of shit like Ashlee Simpson gets to record a professional CD and get the promotional capital to appear on SNL. It's laughable to me.

    The stuff is crap and nobody should be buying it. And it's the record companies' fault. You guys work with MTV, you create the wants and then you cater to it. You could have people wanting talent, but you have them wanting a bunch of garbage.
    gnaw on it

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    We used to have something in this country called "radio" where you could hear a lot of good music played and then buy the stuff that was good.

    Now they have something called "radio" which plays nothing but corporate crap like Titney Spears and the Backdoor Boys, and any new real music goes unheard.

    Unless it turns up online. Napster in it's heyday was like FM radio in the late 70's. And guess what? Back in the late 70's and early 80's I taped a lot of shit off the radio too. Including a lot of "pre-released" albums. And then bought them on vinyl the day they hit the stores.

    The irony is that the RIAA likes to bitch about bootlegs, even though they don't lose one goddamned dime on bootlegs, because the material isn't offerred for sale (by them) in the first place. Online sharing of boots has KILLED any profit potential in bootlegging, and has returned that sort of thing to exactly what it should be, fans of a band sharing rare recordings with each other.

    As for the corporations, fuck'em. I can't come up with much sympathy for an industry where bands that actually write songs and play instruments can't even get signed, much less get on the charts.

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    I taped Van Halen II in its entirety off the radio. I have since purchased the six pack twice (vinyl & cd). My local station played entire albums at midnight every night, with a pause before and after each side so you'd have a nice tape. I bought quite a few that I had taped first.

    Fuck it!

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    Originally posted by ODShowtime
    Train, the bottom line is that if you want to sell albums, you need to make good albums. And there's been maybe two or three out for this whole worthless year.

    You guys need to stop investing all of your money in the insulting bullshit being pumped from record companies like it's a god-damn commodity like oil or steel.

    Any counter to this point will require you to tell me how a piece of shit like Ashlee Simpson gets to record a professional CD and get the promotional capital to appear on SNL. It's laughable to me.

    The stuff is crap and nobody should be buying it. And it's the record companies' fault. You guys work with MTV, you create the wants and then you cater to it. You could have people wanting talent, but you have them wanting a bunch of garbage.
    You guys have some AMAZING logic. If a piece of music isn't something you personally like, it shouldn't be invested in. Ashlee Simpson is a joke musically, but she brings HUGE marketing opps for us, which is why she sold 3 million units. The job is half done for us. The bands you would be into, I would bet my life couldn't sell half of that number. I see it every fucking day of my life. All these people who claim if you pump money into indie band A, it would sell tons. RARELY happens. Especially in the last decade, the alt movement really didn't pay off.

    And yes OD, it is a commodity. Art is what you do in your home. Once you start trying to "Sell your wares" to the public, you are now a music business person like the rest of us, whether you like it or not.

    It seems like people have 8-9 arguments why its ok to steal music and I have yet to hear anything but spinning plates. Legitimate reasonings I have yet to hear.

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    Originally posted by FORD
    We used to have something in this country called "radio" where you could hear a lot of good music played and then buy the stuff that was good.

    Now they have something called "radio" which plays nothing but corporate crap like Titney Spears and the Backdoor Boys, and any new real music goes unheard.

    Unless it turns up online. Napster in it's heyday was like FM radio in the late 70's. And guess what? Back in the late 70's and early 80's I taped a lot of shit off the radio too. Including a lot of "pre-released" albums. And then bought them on vinyl the day they hit the stores.

    The irony is that the RIAA likes to bitch about bootlegs, even though they don't lose one goddamned dime on bootlegs, because the material isn't offerred for sale (by them) in the first place. Online sharing of boots has KILLED any profit potential in bootlegging, and has returned that sort of thing to exactly what it should be, fans of a band sharing rare recordings with each other.

    As for the corporations, fuck'em. I can't come up with much sympathy for an industry where bands that actually write songs and play instruments can't even get signed, much less get on the charts.
    I myself am no fan of corp. radio, the ways they make us bend and spend is crazy. It also stifles lots of what we have to do. So do the big box retailers, who fuck the indie record stores, where a lot of acts can be broken wide to a larger audience.

    Like I said before, I have no problem with streaming or sampling (30-45 sec samples, which any legit service has). I WANT you to hear everything we have to offer, the pop stuff and the indie stuff. However, taking the product home for free is not acceptable.

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    If you could only test drive a car for 30-45 seconds, would that be enough for you to know if you wanted to buy it?

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    Yes, if EVERYTHING in the car (song) last 2-3 minutes. Not to mention you get to do this to EVERY car on the lot (er, album) to follow your logic.

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    Ashlee Simpson is a joke musically, but she brings HUGE marketing opps for us, which is why she sold 3 million units.

    Just because her also talentless sister came before her? They should both be eating out of dumpsters. This is what I'm talking about. There's 200 singers behind her with real voices and a real stage presence. If you guys pushed talent, it would start selling again.

    The job is half done for us. The bands you would be into, I would bet my life couldn't sell half of that number.

    You're right about that. Two of my favorite bands released amazing albums in 2001 (STP and Black Crowes) and then immediately broke up due to poor sales. They're old guys sure. But one of the reasons the great music on those records went mostly unlistened to is because people who would have liked it were too busy buying shit-ass Crazy Town albums you guys promoted because the one guy had lots of tattoos.

    And yes OD, it is a commodity.

    People are supposed to be proud of their work. I bet a lot of people in your industry are at least secretly ashamed of the crap they have to promote. But the bucks are there!

    It seems like people have 8-9 arguments why its ok to steal music and I have yet to hear anything but spinning plates. Legitimate reasonings I have yet to hear.
    I never said it's ok to "steal" music. I download the hell out of bootlegs, but that's because they're not for sale. I got to the fucking record store and search up and down for a CD I want to buy. I'm dying to throw money at you guys and you don't have shit to sell me. It sucks. I've left the record store empty handed on occasion when I couldn't find a single CD worth buying. I'm just mad because I'm selfish and I want more awesome music to listen to.

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    Just because her also talentless sister came before her? And she had a TV Show.

    YES!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY!!! We HAVE A WINNER!! We are in a business selling product, units. Am I ashamed of what we sell? Not really. Is it my personal taste? Most of it no, but some yes. But what does it matter?? My job is to find what people want to buy RIGHT NOW. The 2000 singers you mention aren't doing what they need to do.

    You have a misconception about what we actually do. We are a bank, looking to invest in artists. We don't build, we INVEST in what's already there. She was a slam dunk.

    With STP and the Black Crowes, are you blaming the music industry for consumers preferences? We should only promote what you like or what a few tastemakers like? Doesn't make any business sense. We sell what we think people will buy or have demonstrated in a limited capacity already what they will buy.

    I'm not "Proud" of every album we have ever released, but I am proud of the work that my colleagues and I do everyday.

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    My job is to find what people want to buy RIGHT NOW.


    How hard could that be? Find the hottest, sluttiest chick possible and teach her a couple of dance steps.

    With STP and the Black Crowes, are you blaming the music industry for consumers preferences?

    The promotion on both albums was crap. That was somebody's fault. If it was out there where kids could see it, they'd buy it. That's what they do. They buy whatever you put in front of them.

    I don't know man, it's not all "the industry's" fault, a lot has to do with the fact that the people out there will buy fuckin' anything once it has the seal of approval. It's everybody's fault.

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    Sounds more like your mad at other consumers than the industry. If they don't like it, the record goes away pure and simple. We give shots everyday to things we think will work and they don't. 98% of ALL records fail every year. Those 20 or so records like Ashlee Simpson pay a lot of bills and allow us to continue to take chances tomorrow.

    The bottom line artistically is that tastes have changed and expectations have changed. Both STP and the Black Crowes put out decent albums, but the truth is the public didn't react to them for whatever reason. Doesn't mean they were bad albums or that people didn't do their jobs. You can't sell what they don't want.

    But they can steal what they do want...

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    If mp3s are killing record sales, then how the hell did I manage to develop one of the most financially & socially debilitating music shopping compulsions known to mankind?!?! Answer that one, and I'll give you a dollar...along with my bagel and Diet Dr. Pepper.

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    How am I supposed to respond to that? You guys are exceptions that prove the rule. YOU personally may have developed some sort of addiction (even though OD says nothing is worth buying), but by and large that is not happening, although I truly wish it were.

    You can keep the Diet Dr. Pepper...ewwwwww

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    Well I already ate the bagel, Big Train...and the dollar...it sorta got lodged in a stripper's cunt (no fooling- sucked it up like a vacuum!). Don't be hatin' on my soda though!

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    Sounds more like your mad at other consumers than the industry. If they don't like it, the record goes away pure and simple.
    I don't think you are taking into account the music biz's role in shaping tastes.

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    We certainly have some effect, but ultimately it is the consumers choice as far as what we sell. Were we supposed to ignore the southern rap movement, Lil' Jon for example (who sells tons on an indie label), in favor of the Black Crowes, who's sales have been slowing and who's new product isn't reacting?

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    We really enjoy file sharing!

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    a-ha!

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    Bumpityperump!

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    I am for downloading to sample music and look for the rare hard to find shit. At the same time, artists that I dig, and want to support, I will go out and buy their CD. If you support an artist, buy their album to support them.

    The music industry, and I mean the BIG SHIT, the big 3 or 4, and Clear Channel and Viacom, have mostly promoted and dumped their millions in promotions into shit. The last major movement of Music as Art to the masses of people through the MAJORS was druing the late 80' up through the early 90's to maybe 95 or 96...


    At the same time, I have no sympathy for the music industry at all...fuck em'(and I worked in it for a short time, and have many friends in it, or who were in it as well)....they have been raping the artists for decades, making 90% of the profits for merely acting as a credit card...yeah monopoly and power get abused because it is human nature to be a greedy talentless shit head....

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    Yeah, here's a related article from a Toronto weekly. (It was the first time I'd thought about the shit-radio-leading to-filesharing connection, when I read it):

    All we hear is radio ca-ca

    Do you know JACK? Sure you do. The ads for Toronto's newest radio station are all over the subway: "Playing what we want" goes the slogan, with the station's logo bursting out of a jack-in-the-box, implying that the station's programmers are out of control! The posters list off what kind of crazy musical combinations you can expect: Tom Petty! Springsteen! The Cars! Meat Loaf! Now, proudly advertising Meat Loaf as a selling point in 2003 may constitute a bold, revolutionary act, but really, JACK FM is just the latest addition to a radio dial littered with microscopically focused niche stations boasting unintentionally ironic slogans that only draw attention to how rigid, formulaic and safe their playlists truly are.

    JACK joins the likes of MIX 99 (whose mainstream-rock mix rarely veers more than a centimetre or two from the middle of the road), Q107 (whose definition of "Classic Rock" is flexible enough to include a regular rotation of Saga records), to the worst offender, 102.1 The Edge, whose conception of edgy music begins with the first Our Lady Peace album, ends with the latest Evanescence single, and wedges every last fake brow-pierced, phony-angst nü-metal mook into the sliver between. The irony is that JACK's former incarnation, KISS 92.5, while adhering to a top 40 format, managed to achieve something resembling true variety, bouncing from Eminem to Destiny's Child to Coldplay.

    Now, for those of us who routinely seek musical guidance from college radio or CBC's Brave New Waves, and who spend more at Rotate This and Soundscapes than on food and shelter, the relentlessly uninspiring state of commercial radio is a topic as tired as the insincerity of televangelists. But as much as we are loath to admit it, radio is still an important cultural arbiter. For the casual music fan -- someone who buys maybe 10 CDs a year, simply based on liking something they heard on the radio or MuchMusic -- radio airplay represents validation, in the same way hipsters rely on New York or London to tell them what's cool. And more often than not, radio assumes the masses are brain-dead automatons incapable of appreciating anything beyond whatever narrowly defined genre parameters the station's corporate bosses deem most profitable.

    The troubled state of the music industry is often portrayed as a battle between greedy major labels and unscrupulous music fans stealing music online. While the former portrays the latter's actions as cold-hearted theft, the question is rarely asked: did radio make them do it? The keys to any industry's growth are brand (in this case, band) loyalty and regeneration through the introduction of new products. The music industry is unique in that it relies on radio (instead of traditional advertising methods) to broadcast new-product information to consumers. Radio is failing them. As a result, those consumers have had to seek alternative outlets -- e.g., Kazaa -- to get that information.

    Each week eye receives, on average, 75 CDs submitted for review, ranging from superstar acts like Radiohead down to indie techno artists burning beats off their laptops. This in itself is just a fraction of what's produced every week. Contrary to the music industry's doomsday prognostications, the actual amount of music being created has increased as the means of production (laptops, four-track recorders) and distribution (internet mail order, for example) have become more accessible.

    Strangely, radio's response to this proliferation has been to become more conservative, and in doing so, it does a disservice to the music industry. Retro-minded stations like JACK and Q107 do nothing to promote the continued survival of the industry by playing songs we've heard a million times before from records we bought 20 years ago. CanCon regulations, initially devised to expose emerging homegrown talent, can now be satisfied by dropping the Hip or side one of 2112. And given that the careers of most Edge-endorsed alterna-rockers last about as long as their target listener's first sexual encounter, it's not exactly inspiring band loyalty among a new generation of music fans. Anyone remember Eve 6? Mudvayne? No wonder kids today would rather buy videogames.

    We're not saying these stations should scrap their Zeppelin records and play nothing but godspeed you! black emperor, but there's no reason a Neil Young fan wouldn't appreciate The Flaming Lips, or a Coldplay fan wouldn't dig the emotional space-pop of Broken Social Scene. There's also no reason one of these stations couldn't just up and transform themselves into a station that could play both The Rolling Stones and The Constantines. As JACK (formerly KISS) and CHUM (formerly sports, formerly rock) have made abundantly clear, it takes very little time or thought to repackage.

    Yes, radio is ultimately a business, concerned with the bottom line more than giving unknown artists exposure. But given the limited channels for quality new music on Toronto radio, soon these stations won't have any nostalgia left to sell.- eye magazine
    "What we've been doing, which is great and certainly cost saving, is I train in the sand pit in McDonald's. I do a few laps. I go through the tunnel a few times. The kids don't mind if I smoke. Plus, when I'm done, lunch is right there."- DLR 2003

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    Originally posted by DLR'sCock


    At the same time, I have no sympathy for the music industry at all...fuck em'(and I worked in it for a short time, and have many friends in it, or who were in it as well)....they have been raping the artists for decades, making 90% of the profits for merely acting as a credit card...yeah monopoly and power get abused because it is human nature to be a greedy talentless shit head....
    I appreciate your characterization of myself and my associates. We don't need your sympathy. I say, if you say, fuck us, how do you explain the indie labels and such who get ripped, probably much more than we do? I guess fuck them too..no wonder you didn't survive in the business. Yes, I know that was a cheap shot, but it was a counter to your cheap shot..

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    Well, there are two sides to every story, eh? I too have been involved in one way or another in the buisness since the late 70s.

    The argument about Major Labels and their predatory practices do hold water. BUT, now due to the fact that if you buy a new computer, you can own a record company in a box, and the argument (while still valid) will not have such a drastic effect, as the labels no longer control distribution of product.

    Anyone can get the most primitive sequencing software, and if they have any talent at all (whether it be musically, in business, or in marketing, they can distribute product to the masses. WITHOUT the narrow tunnel vision of the radio conglomerates and playlist consultants, and without the padded expense accounts built into recoupable advances and recording budgets.

    If someone told me that I could sign a major label album deal, and owe $500,000 minimum to the label, with no guarantess they will even RELEASE the fucking thing, I would tell them to GET FUCKED!

    My profit margin is going to be much greater if the public enjoys what I do WITHOUT the meddling talking heads at the "Major Conglomerates" (They are not labels any more, they are conglomerates).

    The odds favor an independant anyway. Independent labels are more nimble, and work with limited budgets, forcing them to be creative when developing marketing strategies, etc.

    The odds are against your album getting released if you sign to a major conglomerate. And of course, even if it does, then you have to see how radio accepts it. THEN you get to see if the public really likes it. This is, of course, if you have not signed any previous record deals, maybe have a following, but are an "unkown" artist.

    So even if you do sign a major deal, the odds are you will get struck by lightning twice, die from an asteroid hitting the earth, and be eaten alive by a Great White shark in the middle of Death Valley (need I mention Hell freezing over?) before your album is ever heard on the radio at all.

    Sure, there are always exceptions to every rule, but I do feel the major labels have been ripping consumers off as well as screwing their own artists since the existence of recorded music for sale.

    In addition to the study mentioned above, the RIAA was trumpeting at this time last year how sales were down, when that was not true at all.

    Here is the article....it is interesting reading:

    http://www.mosesavalon.com/april2004.htm#sounscan

    This guy has a lot to say about the industry (though some stuff I feel is bullshit).

    http://www.mosesavalon.com/mosupposefr.htm
    Last edited by Hardrock69; 03-25-2005 at 01:10 AM.

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    So, all that said, WHERE are all these magical bands who WOULD be so huge without our help? There are very few barriers to entry here and more bands than ever. You would think there would be a whole tide of great music, but in fact the opposite is true. Go figure.

    If you look at a site like say Big Champagne, the top 10, 20 and 100 are all MAJOR Releases, not some indie bullshit. So what are people interested in really? Discovering new music my ass. 3 Billion downloads a month and probably 1/2 them are 50 cent.

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    Yes out of all those releases, how many of them actually make money by Major Conglomerate accounting practices?

    And how many artists will actually make unrecoupable earnings?

    Not even as many as one might think.


    It is not necessary for an indy label to even have a Top 200 album release for them to make a profit.
    Certainly if they are a small label.

    They have limited overhead, and can actually
    make a profit for the artist as well as themselves (if the artist is not an idiot when it comes to business matters), whereas with a major label, the chances of the artist emerging with any money in the black are much less.


    I never said these bands would be SO HUGE without your "help". I said they were more likely to have some money in their pocket, instead of more than likely becoming indentured servants of the Major Conglomerate machine, in debt like they never imagined.

    And contrary to your opinion, there is a tide of great music out there. Sounds like standard major label BS to claim that unless a major conglomerate releases it, it does not exist.

    Last edited by Hardrock69; 03-25-2005 at 01:41 AM.

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