The NHL Lockout...does anyone REALLY CARE?

[POJO_Risin]

Look...I'm an NHL fan...and I do miss it...but can there be any argument that the vast majority of sports fan don't really care about this? Should Bettman open up his eyes and realize that he's going to lose several teams in this? He keeps saying no...but I'm telling you...whenever the NHL comes back...if there aren't teams missing initially...it won't take long for them to start disappearing...

This is about as idiotic as it gets...players don't want a cap...and have offered to take a what...24% reduction in pay? Now, I'm a bit educated...and a 24% reduction would nullify the need for a cap...

and assuming the owners would then control their spending (I know that WON'T be happeneing any time soon)...

The problem is the owners...period...they need a solid fucking cap...to keep them honest? Christ...what a joke...

see you NHL...long live the minors...

[Bob_R]

Jesus Christ Pojo don't get fuckin' Lou started!

To answer your question: I missed it alot more in 1994-1995. And, that has to do more with more personal life than a gripe versus the game itself.

[POJO_Risin]

Oh...Fuck anyone's opinion who has to put down something to bring something else up...

I like Hockey...but I'm not getting the sense that many people are.

I live in an NHL town...granted it's not NHL crazy...but the paper give's it 1 square inch a day...not to promising...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Look...I'm an NHL fan...and I do miss it...but can there be any argument that the vast majority of sports fan don't really care about this? Should Bettman open up his eyes and realize that he's going to lose several teams in this? He keeps saying no...but I'm telling you...whenever the NHL comes back...if there aren't teams missing initially...it won't take long for them to start disappearing...

This is about as idiotic as it gets...players don't want a cap...and have offered to take a what...24% reduction in pay? Now, I'm a bit educated...and a 24% reduction would nullify the need for a cap...

and assuming the owners would then control their spending (I know that WON'T be happeneing any time soon)...

The problem is the owners...period...they need a solid fucking cap...to keep them honest? Christ...what a joke...

see you NHL...long live the minors...

The Buffalo Snooze...er...News posted a series of good articles on this very subject. The overall gist is that the 24% reduction would be temporary and the player salaries would surpass present levels in only a couple of years. The players know they'll get it back.

Even a lot of ex-players are beginning to bitch about the NHLPA. Adam Oates was in the Boston Globe over the weekend slamming the Union for sticking up for the big money players while fucking over the little guys in the league.

[POJO_Risin]

How would the 24% only be temporary?

unless the owners would overpay in the future...

it's all about spending money...and if the owners didn't...this problem wouldn't be there to begin with.

Player's Unions are supposed to keep the money in the players hands...

Player's are supposed to get as much as they can...

it's the owners that have to offer it...

[POJO_Risin]

It's teams like the the Red Wings...and to some extent...the douchebag here in Raleigh who offered up Federov that huge deal a few years ago that ran up the prices a bit...that you can't count on...because they'll always up the ante...

blame the owners...

[Dave's PA Rental]

Nobody was a bigger fan of the NHL than I was from 1987-1992. Unfortunately, I got spoiled on what the game should be...as a result, I cant even WATCH the present game. Betteman wanted to turn it into the NBA on skates, and thats exactly what he did. I dont miss it at all. (and aparently, not alot of others do either.)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
It's teams like the the Red Wings...and to some extent...the douchebag here in Raleigh who offered up Federov that huge deal a few years ago that ran up the prices a bit...that you can't count on...because they'll always up the ante...

blame the owners...

True, but the NFL is universally acknowledged as the best run sports league. And they have a cap. Because they know that owners need to sell tickets and must sign talent to do so, yet the salaries eat a bigger share of the profit for teams like Calgary and Tampa Bay, not that they turn a profit anymore. The owners are fucked either way in a viscious Catch-22...Either they are overpaying for talent and driving up salaries or they are a bunch of stingy, cheap bastards willing to settle mediocrity or worse.

And things really started with Mario Lemeux getting (I think) $42 million over seven years in 92' or something. Then everyone wanted baseball salaries in an "Arena Football" level sport.

[Chris]

What's the big deal about a cap?

The most successful league in North America (NFL) has it. The NBA has it. So what's the problem?

The reality is that if they come back and play under the current system the salaries will escalate back to where they were and then they will lose a couple of teams. The player's association loves to say the owners should restrain themselves. Well fine. Except, all NHL contracts are guaranteed, many other leagues do not have guaranteed contracts. So if you get stuck with some superstar stiff, you can often arrange a reasonable buyout and dump the player. In the NHL, you have to essentially pay the full contract of the player.

The bottom line is this. All the owners need to do is wait until September and declare an impasse. At that point they can more or less dictate whatever system they want and can implement it without any input from the union. Then they can open the door to replacement players and it's over for the players and their association. We all know they'll all slowly start coming back. It happened in the NFL it will happen in the NHL. So the players might as well make the best deal they can right now. They have NOTHING to gain by losing the season. They should agree to a cap and dangle the salvaging of the season as a carrot to get the owners to agree to a higher level cap.

[POJO_Risin]

The reason why the NFL works...is that it's contracts aren't guaranteed (just bonus money)...and they have a hard cap...you CAN'T go over it...or you get fined...lose players...all that fun stuff...

they are the ONLY league with universal non-guaranteed contracts...

and a hard cap...

which is why it works...

I do blame the Player's Union for not realizing that ultimately they are going to cost a large chunk of their Union...They are hardlining like some of the other major Union's of the past, but don't have the clout, or the league to withstand a year off...

Unfortunately...if they don't solve this in two weeks...they'll find out the hard way...

Trust me here...no season this year...and the NHL will NEVER recover...

[Chris]

I think hockey will recover in Canada. And it will probably recover in the traditional US areas where it's always been successful. It might take ten years like it has in baseball, but I think it will recover. All the polls I've seen up here, say that the public supports the owners. And most fans in smaller markets, understand that for their team to have a chance each year, they need to have a level playing field. And without some type of change to the current system, not only will their team struggle to be competitive, but chances are that it might not even be around at all.

The majority of fans in smaller markets understand that if the owners get a hard cap, that should give all the teams a chance to be competitive and hopefully a shot at being a contender.

Assuming the owners are really willing to lose the season to get a cap, (which seems to be the case), I say the players might as well make their best deal now. I cannot see where they have anything to gain by writing off the season. The way I see it, if the season is lost, the NHLPA is finished. Come October of next year, hockey will be back and the rules totally dictated by the owners.

So the net result of losing the season will gain what for the players?

The owners still get what they want, a hard cap. They will also get all the other things they want too, like the elimination of salary arbitration etc. and they'll break the back of the players and the NHLPA. The value of their franchises will probably skyrocket, because they suddenly now have a franchise that is much more likely to be profitable, even if revenues plumett as a result of the lockout.

So the main downside to the loss of the season for the owners, is that it might take them ten years to rebuild the attendance and revenues back to where it is today.

But for the players, they lose an entire seasons pay. They still end up with a salary cap, and probably lose a bunch of other rights. So if I'm a player, I'd be looking to make my best deal right now even if that means I have to accept a salary cap as part of that deal. It's better to have 50% of a 2 billion dollar pie now versus what might be 50% a 1 billion dollar pie or even less come October of next year.

[POJO_Risin]

We'll see...we'll see...

I don't have faith in any of the sides...

if it becomes a bigger pissing match than it already is...and lines are drawn in cement...we may not be talking about 1 season...

[POJO_Risin]

Plus, you think about all the players that we'll never get to see again...how many players will retire now because of the strike?

Will guys like Lemieux be back...etc.?

Who knows how this game will change...

[ALinChainz]

One team in the NFL lost money last season, not this past one, but the season prior, Arizona. And it wasn't much by the standards set by sports numbers. Hockey being a completely different animal than the other TV sports, they don't get that fat TV cash.

I for one, like the idea of the salary cap. The one the NBA has is a soft cap, with the Larry Bird rule being a major difference. I don't like it, but at least it's something. Baseball now has the luxary tax.

The NHL owners won't accept any deal without one and the players won't with one. When good teams have to go bankrupt, and teams are losing less money by NOT playing, something has to be done.

Let's hope they can.

[Chris]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
We'll see...we'll see...

I don't have faith in any of the sides...

if it becomes a bigger pissing match than it already is...and lines are drawn in cement...we may not be talking about 1 season...

POJO, from what I'm hearing up here, the owners feel they can declare an impasse next fall. Even the worst pessimist is saying the longest it can go is to some kind of shortened season next year, so that would be January or so.

I honestly think the players are likely to make a deal in January and accept a cap. Maybe to save face everyone will try to come up with a different term other than cap......but it will be like a cap. And if the players refuse to accept something like that, I think most of the owners are prepared to happily discard the season.. They just have way too much to gain by waiting.

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Plus, you think about all the players that we'll never get to see again...how many players will retire now because of the strike?

Will guys like Lemieux be back...etc.?

Who knows how this game will change...

Exactly.

Brett Hull, Stevie Yzerman, Oates, Hasek (who should have stayed retired) are some others.

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by Chris
POJO, from what I'm hearing up here, the owners feel they can declare an impasse next fall. Even the worst pessimist is saying the longest it can go is to some kind of shortened season next year, so that would be January or so.

I honestly think the players are likely to make a deal in January and accept a cap. Maybe to save face everyone will try to come up with a different term other than cap......but it will be like a cap. And if the players refuse to accept something like that, I think most of the owners are prepared to happily discard the season.. They just have way too much to gain by waiting.

I agree. The owners are all set to sit.

Don't most of them have the arenas also? Some of these guys make money of the arena with concerts, etc.

Would be interesting to know who and how much.

[Chris]

Those players will be gone regardless though. Even if they were playing right now, everyone would be speculating that Yzerman would most likely be in his last season. Ditto for the others except for maybe Hull.

The sad part is that we might not get to see them play out their career.

[POJO_Risin]

Those players wouldn't be gone regardless with a season this year...

NHL needs a hard cap...

the NBA soft cap is a joke...

the luxory tax isn't a joke...but when you make as much money as the owners of the teams paying it...it is...

both the NBA...and MLB will have to answer...

as Va says over and over...when you have one team sitting at 240...and only 1 or 2 teams within' 140 million dollars of it...

it's ridiculous...just ridiculous...

The problem with a lot of this...an the NFL actually got it right...was that big market teams control most sports...and it continues...

It seems like the owners are unified...we'll see how long it takes collusion to come into play...deal or not...

[Chris]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
I agree. The owners are all set to sit.

Don't most of them have the arenas also? Some of these guys make money of the arena with concerts, etc.

Would be interesting to know who and how much.

Many do own the arenas. A bunch claim they are making more money not playing and just renting out their joints, instead of running money losing NHL teams. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle I would suspect.

Imagine if the players only get 50% of whatever is left come January of next year? If that's a 1 billion dollar pie versus the 2.1 billion dollar one or whatever the hell it supposed to be now. That would mean they would go from 1.5 billion in player's salaries down to 500 million which would be a lot more than a 24% cut in pay, it'll be about a 66% pay cut.

And that's worth holding out for? I can't see it.

[Chris]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Those players wouldn't be gone regardless with a season this year...

NHL needs a hard cap...

the NBA soft cap is a joke...

the luxory tax isn't a joke...but when you make as much money as the owners of the teams paying it...it is...

both the NBA...and MLB will have to answer...

as Va says over and over...when you have one team sitting at 240...and only 1 or 2 teams within' 140 million dollars of it...

it's ridiculous...just ridiculous...

The problem with a lot of this...an the NFL actually got it right...was that big market teams control most sports...and it continues...

It seems like the owners are unified...we'll see how long it takes collusion to come into play...deal or not...

To have a competitive league, you need to have a system that leaves teams battling on the rink and not competing against each other from a financial perspective. Once a league dissolves into teams competeing financially, typically the result is most leagues are left with 3 or 4 huge money teams that can compete in that enviornment. And with only 3 or 4 teams being competitive, the rest of the leagues fans, without their team having a reasonable chance at winning, typically just start to lose interest.

Sorta like MLB. The Blue Jays are a perfect example of MLB's broken system. If they don't fix MLB, I would say the Jays are in serious danger of folding or moving. And they're not the only ones in danger.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
as Va says over and over...when you have one team sitting at 240...and only 1 or 2 teams within' 140 million dollars of it...

it's ridiculous...just ridiculous...

I don't know about the over and over part, well, maybe I do....

Lemme just say this...

Do I lose sleep over it ?? No.... My dog waking me up to take a leak does that for me....

I miss it most on weekday nights, with no football and baseball obviously over..... I'm also not very big on college basketball until Tourney time....

I'm glad the owners rejected the 24%.... It was obvious that in a few years, the salaries would slowly but surely creep back up to pre-strike levels.....

Irregardless of the fact that salary caps work, and the NHLPA knows that, they know that a cap also means MUCH less money for their players in the long run....

Who knows, maybe enough of them will whine because of their "measly" 10 grand per month allowance from the union.....

[POJO_Risin]

I concur with you Chris...

but it's deeper than just having a winner...it's the ABILITY to have a winner...

10 years ago...the Yankees payroll was generally...25 million or so above the next teams...

now...no shit...75 million or so...

and reality is...over 100 million for 80% of the teams...

in Hockey it may be even worse...because of the markets and what markets can support. Most of hockey's market's in the US are relatively new to NHL teams...whereas baseball has a bit of leniency...ie the Pirates...Brewers...teams that have been there 30 years+ (Pirates obviously over 100 years)...

They also get a bit more support from the league...as you saw with the Expos...who were bought by MLB...

Let's bottom line it here...baseball will survive...it's America's Pasttime...for as many die hards that left and never came back in 1994...there are twice as many who did...

I had to with my Indians finally becoming winners...

but people in the states care about baseball...

a small...much smaller percentage care about hockey...

baseball and football strikes are front pagers for the duration...

hockey isn't...

precarious...if they miss a year...what will happen...I guarantee it...is that some regions won't go back...ever...

I know it will happen here...probably places like Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus...even LA...

Christ...Tampa...the defending Champs...will probably be scraping...

my point?

the NHL will look vastly different.

All of you that are glad they are dumping the 24%...what do you give a fuck for anyways? They need to get this product back...and now...in whatever shape they can...then do what the NFL does now...and work through the next year to get a plan together...

What they need to do is take the 24% pay cut as temporary...start the season...put the deadline the DAY AFTER the Stanley Cup...and just get a deal done...

I personally could give a fuck less if it's 24%...if it's a soft cap...hard cap...night cap...

I like watching NHL games...and will be pissed if they leave...

lmfao...10 grand per month...unreal...just unreal...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
but it's deeper than just having a winner...it's the ABILITY to have a winner...

10 years ago...the Yankees payroll was generally...25 million or so above the next teams...

now...no shit...75 million or so...

and reality is...over 100 million for 80% of the teams...

in Hockey it may be even worse...because of the markets and what markets can support. Most of hockey's market's in the US are relatively new to NHL teams...whereas baseball has a bit of leniency...ie the Pirates...Brewers...teams that have been there 30 years+ (Pirates obviously over 100 years)...

Be careful Poj, you're sounding like me....

[POJO_Risin]

LMFAO...jesus h. christ...thanks for saving me...

you know me Va...I'll use anything to prove a point...

Does this make sense to anyone...it's been rollin' in my head...

Hockey may survive simply because they don't have as many fans in the US that are passionate about their teams...so...not as many to leave...

I don't know...just rambling I guess...

[ALinChainz]

I agree with the fact that they need to get the game back on the ice before damage that can't be undone happens.

Like POJO mentioned before about the minors, they do seem to be enjoying bigger crowds and support, obvious I know, but at least there is some hockey being played.

Like we've all said, this sport is much different than the others in terms of TV and exposure, marketing.

They better get something done.

[POJO_Risin]

That lack of exposure though...may save it in the long run...

I don't think people care much either way...and that non-commitment may make it not that big of deal...

I don't know...we'll have to see...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Bettman has said recently that once the new CBA is signed, there are going to be other changes as well, on and off ice....

NBC will have the new NHL contract.... Not sure how that affects the ESPN games or the FSN games....

Ticket prices will be going down (I'll believe that one when I see it)....

On ice, the game will be "strictly" enforced to promote offensive hockey....

Like I said, we'll see about that....

[POJO_Risin]

I won't be holding my breath on any of that...

[aesop]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
Exactly.

Brett Hull, Stevie Yzerman, Oates, Hasek (who should have stayed retired) are some others.

I really need to see Lemieux one more year...Especially after the Pens went out and signed the Wrecking Ball to be his RW...

[POJO_Risin]

Oh...come now...you know Lemieux isn't going to go out like this...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by aesop
I really need to see Lemieux one more year...Especially after the Pens went out and signed the Wrecking Ball to be his RW...

I hear that bro...

I just feel fortunate that my sons and I got a chance to watch him (along with Pojo for 1 or 2 games) after he came back in '00....

I was overseas during the majority of his 1st stint....

[POJO_Risin]

I was lucky to have spent way to much fucking money in the igloo way back when to see some games...went to school 45 minutes north of the city...during their heyday...

and those couple of games with Va...

[Chris]

Pojo, I'm with you on the ability to win. I think as a fan most of us are accepting of a team rebuiding to become a winner. But when teams get into the constant process of letting all their talented players go because they can't afford them, that's a huge problem. Many of the teams in MLB are caught in that dangerous cycle. And I'm also with you that MLB is on a totally different level than hockey in the U.S.

With regard to the NBC T.V. contract. I heard that NBC has some oddball open agreement with the NHL where they only pay if they televise games. Apparantly the deal they signed stipulates they have the broadcast rights, but they can pick and choose the games they want to televise and they only have to pay when they show games. Supposedly, nobody really was bidding on the NHL broadcast rights so that's why NBC got the deal that they did. They were talking about the NBC contract on the radio which is where I heard about the details of the NBC contract, so forgive me if I'm a little off on the facts.

[Rikk]

I'm in one of the craziest NHL towns there is. And I know some people that initially acted like it was the end of the world. But, like anything else, people are realizing that life goes on.

Me? I could give a fuck. Frankly, this is a great NFL season. And that's all I could ever give a fuck about.

[POJO_Risin]

No...I heard the same things...NBC learned from ABC who was bitching about the games...and actually took the NHL off its schedule a few weekends...and still had to pay with the deal they signed...

NBC got a good deal...knowing that season games don't draw...

wonder how they play in the playoffs...or if they are still mostly all on Cable like last year...

[Bob_R]

To end the year I'm drinking my morning coffee from my NJ Devils mug. Just thought I'd mention that here.

Secondly, I remember the strike of 1994-1995 was settled in very early January of 95. I'd say they've got about 10 more days or this season is kaput.

BTW, great thread guys. Interesting shit.

I think the NHL must have a salary cap. Preferably a hard cap.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by EVH FANATIC
To end the year I'm drinking my morning coffee from my NJ Devils mug. Just thought I'd mention that here.

You didn't use New Jersey water, did you ???

[Bob_R]

Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
You didn't use New Jersey water, did you ???

Filtered from the fridge.

[aesop]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
I was lucky to have spent way to much fucking money in the igloo way back when to see some games...went to school 45 minutes north of the city...during their heyday...

and those couple of games with Va...

Poj - Did you go to Grove City College? Do you still get to the Burgh to see any Pens games? It would be cool to meet some Army members down there for a game if and when they ever get back...Same to you Va...

...I'm pretty good at sneaking friends into the Igloo Club lol...A few years ago a friend and I spent the whole game partying with Marty Straka's girlfriend...While he scored 2 goals in the game...lmao!