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Thread: Blue States Pay More, Get Less Than Red States

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    Exclamation Blue States Pay More, Get Less Than Red States

    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER

    P-I Focus: Red and blue and the color of money
    Only five blue states are net recipients of federal subsidies; only two red states are net payers of federal taxes

    Sunday, February 13, 2005

    By ERIC SCIGLIANO

    November's presidential election sparked a boom in amateur political geography. You remember the maps that flew like rumors of war over the Internet. First, there was the plaintive spectacle of the election outcome: the blue-tagged Democratic states clinging to the Pacific, Great Lakes and North Atlantic shores, beachheads of civilization wrapped around a vast red wilderness.

    One version showed how closely today's blue states matched the free states and territories before the Civil War while the red matched Dixie and the slave territories. Another, weighted for population, showed the red and blue turfs nearly equal (just like the Bush-Kerry vote), with populous blue states such as New York and California swollen like balloons, squeezing the shriveled red strongholds of the Plains and Rockies.

    Another showed the United States broken up, Yugoslavia-style, into the various cultural and ideological divisions that this election seemed to reflect: Cascadia, Dixie, Yankeeland. One even showed the blue states as southern arms of a "United States of Canada," with the red bloc renamed "Jesusland."

    Even as they chuckled over these maps, blue Americans fumed in ways once reserved for Dixiecrat rebels, neo-Nazis fleeing to Idaho and other fringe separatists. You probably heard the grumbling; perhaps you even vented a little yourself. In 2000, you could blame the outcome on butterfly ballots, Ralph Nader and the "compassionate conservative" stealth campaign. But November 2004 offered fewer excuses, and it posed the question: What if a large section of this country really cares more about putting God in government, keeping gays out of marriage chapels and cutting rich folks' taxes than about fiscal, environmental and geopolitical sanity? What if what we've got is what they actually want? And what if the country's relatively liberal, cosmopolitan and secular regions are paying through the nose to be captives in a political madhouse?

    Follow the money, in this as in all touchy issues. Regional inequities -- who pays and who gets -- go back far and deep in U.S. history. One-way taxation without representation made the colonies rebel against Britain; the fight over whether the slave-holding South or anti-slavery North would prevail in the Western territories led to the Civil War. Discontent has bubbled up since then, whenever this state or that region lands in disfavor for federal spending, taxes and tariffs. But it's reaching a new boil now, thanks to two trends.

    One is the way that the newest federal pie, Homeland Security funding, has been divvied. The likeliest terror targets are blue coastal cities -- New York, Seattle, Los Angeles (where al-Qaida was stopped from striking in 1999) and underprotected seaports generally. But that's not where the money's gone. A stock formula allocates 40 percent of funding equally to each state. So Wyoming, Dick Cheney's off-and-on home state and about as tempting a target as Baffin Island, gets seven times as much funding per capita as New York. When Homeland Security responded to criticism by trying to place a little more money where it's actually needed, Republican lawmakers snarled about favoring "Democratic cities."

    Homeland Security is just a small slice of federal spending. But the big picture looks the same. Each year the National Tax Foundation, a flat-tax society that could hardly be accused of liberal bias, tallies the federal taxes coming from each state and the federal expenditures going to each. Harvard's Taubman Center for State and Local Government does firmer tallies, from confirmed data, periodically; its last report goes back to 1999 data, but it jibes generally with the Tax Foundation's findings. And these findings are not what a lot of people expect.

    "There's a general perception out there that the blue states are big net recipients of federal subsidies," says Harvard business professor Herman "Dutch" Leonard. And there's a corollary perception that, in contrast to these welfare-queen states, the inland and Southern states are a heartland of self-reliance and private initiative, less dependent on federal spending. As Leonard says, "That historically hasn't been the case." And it's becoming less and less so.

    In 2003, the top subsidy-sucking state, in percentage terms, was red-lite New Mexico, which received $1.99 in federal money for every dollar it sent to Washington, D.C. All the next eight net recipients of federal spending were redder yet: Kentucky, Virginia, Montana, Alabama, North Dakota, West Virginia, Mississippi and Alaska, which received $1.60 to $1.89 back for each tax dollar.

    The list of net losers in the state-federal exchange, by contrast, reads like a Who's Who of Blue. Two of the top 14 were traditionally red Western states that are starting to turn purple, Colorado and Nevada. The other 12 are all blue: California, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Washington, Wisconsin and the biggest chump of all, New Jersey, where the federal government spends just $.57 for every dollar it collects. Clearly Tony Soprano did not negotiate this deal.

    Only five blue states were net recipients of federal subsidies. Only two red states were net payers of federal taxes. Washington, despite its large military presence and big defense contractor The Boeing Co., received just 90 cents on its federal tax dollar. Oregon and swinging Florida are perfect washes: They received one federal dollar for every dollar they paid in taxes.

    The reasons for those disparities are many. Military spending favors base-rich states such as Hawaii, by far the biggest per-capita net recipient among the blues. Crop subsidies favor Plains and Midwestern states (as well as California, which is nevertheless a big net payer to the federal government). Medicare and Social Security payments flow disproportionately to Florida, Arizona and other Sun Belt retirement meccas. Maryland, Virginia and New Mexico are big net recipients because of their outsized federal work forces (as is Washington, D.C., a special case that's off the charts).

    But according to the Tax Foundation, the main reason so many blue states pay so much more than they get back is that their residents tend to earn more money and pay more income tax. William Ahern, the editor of the foundation's reports, argues that if blue-staters voted their self-interest, they'd join his group in supporting Bush's efforts to undo the United States' progressive tax structure and eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax, a backstop designed to catch upper-income tax avoiders. And red-staters, who are less well off, would stop supporting Bush and instead defend the progressive taxation that favors them. Not likely, Ahern concedes: "It appears they'll follow President Bush wherever he leads them" while Democrats will "obey their instinct" and battle Bush.

    But you can look at this topsy-turvy lineup another way. Blue-staters earn more on average and pay more in taxes, because they are better educated, more productive, less likely to be retired or disabled and generally healthier; rates of obesity, smoking and alcoholism (not to mention divorce and suicide) all peak in the South or West. The highly educated have always been healthier and earned more but more of them used to vote Republican; as the two parties have switched identities, these voters have gone Democratic.

    What is not a factor, Ahern declares, is the greater political clout of the Republicans, who now control every branch of federal government for the first time since Reconstruction. But the numbers suggest that pork may play a part. The biggest recent losers in this sweepstakes, those whose balance of payments has improved most, tend to be red: Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee and Virginia. The biggest losers, those that are paying more and getting less, are blue: California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey and New York.

    Already, Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has vowed to pry more federal money loose for Democratic California. You can bet House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and his posse, who have pressured K Street lobbying firms to hire Republicans rather than Democrats, look for ways to feed the red and starve the blue.

    The results, when you crunch the fragmented state data, are striking. In 2003, according to the Tax Foundation data, the blue states contributed $966 billion to the federal Treasury and got $830 billion back. The reds paid $697 billion and received a whopping $909 billion. Welfare queens, indeed.

    What if Red America and Blue America split up and each had to live according to its means? Secession talk is of course idle fantasy; a national breakup might be the only way to achieve the "humbler foreign policy" that candidate Bush promised in 2000, but it's a daydream that would prove a nightmare. Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union could dissolve peacefully, but the United States would not; look what happened the last time a region tried to break away. Still, if the blue states could cut loose from the reds (granting the South the divorce it sought 144 years ago), they'd start out $136 billion to the good.
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    Are we starting an East Coast/West Coast rap war?

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    This article says nothing about population...

    Idaho cannot be compared to New York...

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    You should thank God that Idaho has nowhere near the population of New York.

    Top half of the state is neo-nazis, bottom half of the state is an annex of Utah (Mormons)

    Why would you want more of that?
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    Ok, North Dakota...

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    Fuck it, lets all move to another country.
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    (before this one implodes with controversy)

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    Any good things about America, Ford? Oh yea...the blue states! (lol)

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    all two of them!

    no, but this has always been the case. NY has always put more money in and got less money back then, say, wyoming.

    the budget proposed by Bush for NY in the coming year is the worst ever, apparently. (republicans have always been dicey with NY. remember Ford - the president, not our pinko friend here - essentially telling NYC to drop dead when the city was nearly bankrupt back in the 70s?

    here, this is a little peice of brilliance written by some pissed-off blue stater back on november 4, 2004...

    www.fuckthesouth.com

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    Originally posted by academic punk

    www.fuckthesouth.com
    I wonder if you'll say that during election time in 2008?
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    Originally posted by SweetSecrets
    Any good things about America, Ford? Oh yea...the blue states! (lol)
    Not all of the red states are entirely useless. I have spent a good chunk of my life in Arizona, after all. Parts of Utah are pretty cool, despite the Mormon right wing oppression. What I've seen of Colorado was alright (though they drive worse than Californians)

    Besides, didn't you just get back from Australia?

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    Originally posted by academic punk

    the budget proposed by Bush for NY in the coming year is the worst ever, apparently.
    And we have another 1.8 billion budget crisis in this state as well.

    Yet in another thread a couple weeks ago. Dr. Love brags about his "tax cut".

    Doc lives in Texas. Go figure.

    I never got a BCE tax cut. I don't know anybody in this state who did, except maybe Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and Howard Schultz (Owner of Starfucks and the Sonics)

    It's obvious that the BCE is deliberately rewarding red states and punishing the blue ones. That was obvious to me from the beginning, especially when Boeing was passed up for a huge defense contract (to build a new fighter jet) for TEXAS based Lockheed Martin - despite the fact that Boeing was much better prepared for the project.

    So rather than go with the company that was ready - not to mention a company that sufferred huge losses as a result of 9-11 - Junior gave a multi-billion dollar contract to a company in his own (adopted) home state.

    Crony capitalism at it's worst.

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    Originally posted by FORD


    Junior gave a multi-billion dollar contract to a company in his own (adopted) home state.

    Since you brought it up........

    Something has always bugged the shit out of me, and you would know the story behind it.

    The Constitution states that the Vice President, and the President can't be from the same state, correct?

    Cheney for all intents and purposes was a Texas resident in 2000

    He held a Texas Drivers License, and was registered to vote in the state. Correct?

    How did he pull off the " Iam a Wyoming Resident " scam?


    The funny thing was, Cheney was appointed to FIND a running mate for Junior, but couldnt find anyone willing to follow him into Iraq....

    so he chose himself.

    Or was I having a bad acid flashback?:confused:

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    FORD, when you answer this question, stick to the facts...

    We're not interested in your BCE conspiracy answer...

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    FORD, when you answer, stick to the facts...

    We're not interested in your BCE conspiracy answer...
    Now was that really called for?

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    Absolutely!



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    Maybe the fact that NEITHER of them are actually from Texas worked in their favor.

    I don't know what the residency requirement for Wyoming is. Poppy Bush used to vote in Texas, and his "residency" amounted to one week in a year in a Texas hotel room.

    In any case, why should something like a law stop the BCE? They aren't legally in office, and they started an illegal war. Why should one more crime make a difference?

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    I knew you couldn't resist...

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    What wasn't mentioned was that even if Hawaii may be the "biggest recipient" they don't tell you where that fucking money goes.

    The general population hardly sees any of it. Hell the streets are full of potholes and the schools are breaking down.

    Of course, we're like the state with the biggest military concentration, from the multiple bases we have here.


    Yep you guessed it, all the money is going for the military, and the civilians are barely seeing any of it back at all.
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    I would say Blue States do quite well thank you. Two words: Big Dig. 15 fucking B-I-L-L-I-O-N dollars and counting. Keep two Dem fucks in office WAY longer than they are useful, overspend to the hilt, kick backs to labor on a scale never before seen. And the piece of shit highway system they built LEAKS. Which makes you wonder if labor "accidently" created more jobs (leaks were caused by rebar that wasn't supposed to be left in the forms that made cracks). Mass. rakes in government dough like crazy in various forms (research, education, labor, public works projects). The good folks of Wyoming and the South you disparage pay quite a tidy sum for these things.

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    Originally posted by SweetSecrets
    Any good things about America, Ford? Oh yea...the blue states! (lol)
    Well, as a foreigner I find it hard to believe there´s anything worth while about South Dakota, Kansas or Alabama!

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    I would say Blue States do quite well thank you. Two words: Big Dig. 15 fucking B-I-L-L-I-O-N dollars and counting. Keep two Dem fucks in office WAY longer than they are useful, overspend to the hilt, kick backs to labor on a scale never before seen. And the piece of shit highway system they built LEAKS. Which makes you wonder if labor "accidently" created more jobs (leaks were caused by rebar that wasn't supposed to be left in the forms that made cracks). Mass. rakes in government dough like crazy in various forms (research, education, labor, public works projects). The good folks of Wyoming and the South you disparage pay quite a tidy sum for these things.
    Okay BT, you've a point. But when did the Big Dig start, like twenty years ago? And you can say what you want about Kennedy, (my brother that lives in boston is a social conservative, and always votes for him) is that being such a senior Senator, he gets MA pork.

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    Originally posted by kentuckyklira
    Well, as a foreigner I find it hard to believe there´s anything worth while about South Dakota, Kansas or Alabama!
    Have you ever been there? Hypocrite.

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Okay BT, you've a point. But when did the Big Dig start, like twenty years ago? And you can say what you want about Kennedy, (my brother that lives in boston is a social conservative, and always votes for him) is that being such a senior Senator, he gets MA pork.
    Who cares how long ago it started? The point is how many roads weren't built or repaired elsewhere over that time period to fund this one project? I have a lot to say about those two senators, who are the biggest idiots on the East Coast possibly. I'm just using this to point out how simple minded it is (and NY it is) to say "We pay the most". Either be the "biggest baddest city" in the US and shut up or give up the title and whine like bitches..

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    Originally posted by kentuckyklira
    Well, as a foreigner I find it hard to believe there´s anything worth while about South Dakota, Kansas or Alabama!
    Why don't you go fuck yourself?
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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Okay BT, you've a point. But when did the Big Dig start, like twenty years ago? And you can say what you want about Kennedy, (my brother that lives in boston is a social conservative, and always votes for him) is that being such a senior Senator, he gets MA pork.

    Yeah, he gets the pork alright.



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    Originally posted by kentuckyklira
    Well, as a foreigner I find it hard to believe there´s anything worth while about South Dakota, Kansas or Alabama!
    You writing thta is like me saying, "As an American, I have to say there isn't much worth a damn outside the my nation but some foreign pussy, halfway decent alcohol and nice beaches."

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    Originally posted by McCarrens
    Why don't you go fuck yourself?
    Now there's that "award winning" mind at work as usual....

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    There's Lougemachine!

    Wind him up and watch him go!

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    Who cares how long ago it started? The point is how many roads weren't built or repaired elsewhere over that time period to fund this one project? I have a lot to say about those two senators, who are the biggest idiots on the East Coast possibly. I'm just using this to point out how simple minded it is (and NY it is) to say "We pay the most". Either be the "biggest baddest city" in the US and shut up or give up the title and whine like bitches..

    YOu definitely have a poiit re: the big dig, BT.

    However, this goes back to your views on taxes: we NYers pay so much into it, and see so little back. So what are we paying these taxes for? Just like you believe it's not your responsibility to cover someone's welfare and fodd stamps, I can't suss why I'm paying for, as an example, Wyoming's education program (especially when NY's is in such critrical need of extra funding) and power system, and even thier elected officials salaries.

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    Who cares how long ago it started? The point is how many roads weren't built or repaired elsewhere over that time period to fund this one project? I have a lot to say about those two senators, who are the biggest idiots on the East Coast possibly. I'm just using this to point out how simple minded it is (and NY it is) to say "We pay the most". Either be the "biggest baddest city" in the US and shut up or give up the title and whine like bitches..
    Because it's not their fault. The problem with the Dig is that the lanes were expanded from the original four to six. What happened was that the "slip wall", (a semi-permanent wall of grout or cheap, poor quality concrete used as fill) outer-portion that was to border the finished wall became the main wall, which has caused numerous leaks. There was poor planning, but blaming it all on Kennedy is like blaming an earthquake on the Governor of California.

    Oh, and by-the-way, being in Califunia', you guys are being screwed over too.

    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 02-14-2005 at 03:20 PM.

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    Originally posted by academic punk
    I can't suss why I'm paying for, as an example, Wyoming's education program (especially when NY's is in such critrical need of extra funding) and power system, and even thier elected officials salaries.

    Don't forget we're paying for Iraq's educational programs and electrical systems too!
    gnaw on it

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    if the red states are so bad why is there such a desire for all the snowbird yankee assholes to move down here in the so called bible belt, sunbelt? i dont understand why we all just cant get along. BUSH RULES! I love bush..the PUSSY

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    Originally posted by ODShowtime
    Don't forget we're paying for Iraq's educational programs and electrical systems too!
    We should! We destoyed it, we're responsible to fix it!

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    Originally posted by academic punk
    We should! We destoyed it, we're responsible to fix it!
    Well, someone destroyed it. I didn't really have a say in it.

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    Originally posted by ODShowtime
    Well, someone destroyed it. I didn't really have a say in it.

    Funny how that works.

    Not unlike my girlfriend informing me that I'll be paying for dinner at one of Zagat's top ranked places (read: expensive!!!) tonight.

    I just pay, I get no say...

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Because it's not their fault. The problem with the Dig is that the lanes were expanded from the original four to six. What happened was that the "slip wall", (a semi-permanent wall of grout or cheap, poor quality concrete used as fill) outer-portion that was to border the finished wall became the main wall, which has caused numerous leaks. There was poor planning, but blaming it all on Kennedy is like blaming an earthquake on the Governor of California.

    Oh, and by-the-way, being in Califunia', you guys are being screwed over too.
    Bullshit it ain't. The contractors FUCKED Up. 15 Billion and we are using poor quality concrete? The contractors have VERY close ties to Mr. Kennedy and his running buddy Mr. Kerry. It's been a labor free-for-all since day one, one that could not be stopped once it began (numerous times it was going to be as other senators began nosing around). It was Uncle Teddy's legacy...halfass construction and Sopranos style management. Fucking pure bullshit that those in red states never had the luxury of having.

    I know all too well about California. Every blue state I ever lived in had excessive Dem bullshit fuck it up, then hand off the mess to a Repub to fix (Romney in Mass, The Guvenator out here)..

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    ROMNEY???!@? Please...how is he making ANYTHING better?

    Now in NY...we have Joe Bruno, Guy Vellella, Kerik, you know...the real law-abiding republicans...

    In fact, the worst thing a tri-state area dem has done lately is ome out of the closet in NJ.

    (and subsequently it turns out that he was fukcing any and everything that moved!)

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    Originally posted by Big Train
    Bullshit it ain't. The contractors FUCKED Up. 15 Billion and we are using poor quality concrete?
    NO! The engineers fucked up when the lanes were widened! The grout was not supposed to be the finished wall! They eliminated an entire part of the design by not furnishing and extra barrier for the interiors walls.


    The contractors have VERY close ties to Mr. Kennedy and his running buddy Mr. Kerry. It's been a labor free-for-all since day one, one that could not be stopped once it began (numerous times it was going to be as other senators began nosing around). It was Uncle Teddy's legacy...halfass construction and Sopranos style management. Fucking pure bullshit that those in red states never had the luxury of having.
    Oh brother? I suppose Teddy was on site, throwing his enemies into pits and pouring concrete over them.


    I know all too well about California. Every blue state I ever lived in had excessive Dem bullshit fuck it up, then hand off the mess to a Repub to fix (Romney in Mass, The Guvenator out here)..
    Then how come my "blue" state is run by corrupt, unpopular Republicans, and we're fucked up at every level. I hope the Republicans nominate Pataki so we'll be sure to be rid of him.

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    NO! The engineers fucked up when the lanes were widened! The grout was not supposed to be the finished wall! They eliminated an entire part of the design by not furnishing and extra barrier for the interiors walls.

    Oh brother? I suppose Teddy was on site, throwing his enemies into pits and pouring concrete over them.

    Then how come my "blue" state is run by corrupt, unpopular Republicans, and we're fucked up at every level. I hope the Republicans nominate Pataki so we'll be sure to be rid of him.
    In a battle of semantics, are the engineers NOT contractors?

    Also, justify to me for the 15 Billion dollar price tag (most expensive Public works project in history) WHY we are using cheap concrete?

    Ted was very close to the action. I'm not talking murders dumbass (although an 80 foot hole a mile long underneath a major city...somebody MUSTA been flown in for that), but kickback scandals to numerous to count. Payoffs, contractors selling site materials to third parties (one guy was driving lumber to a house being built right off the site), police overtime (i.e. Sleeping)..just goes on and on. The guy in charge of funding it, Uncle Teddy, never so much as raised an eyebrow during the ENTIRE 20 years. Yet, he never once questioned where his votes were coming from either.

    Don't know about your blue state, never wanted to live there.

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