Van Halen's Gene Simmons demo #2

[Boston_Kev]

Does ANYONE know how to get a copy of this?

In 1977, Gene Simmons cut demos with Alex and Eddie Van Halen at Larrabee Studios in Hollywood, CA. Gene recalled, "I would usually go in and play all the instruments myself, but on this occasion I decided to call up the Van Halen brothers and ask them to come down and play. So both Alex and Eddie came down and played on cut 'Christine Sixteen', 'Got Love For Sale', and 'Tunnel Of Love', which later wound up on my solo record. We cut it live as a trio and Eddie came up with some solos afterwards. I liked his solo for 'Christine Sixteen' so much that when the band recorded it for 'Love Gun', Ace pretty much copied Eddie's solo note-for-note"

[Hardrock69]

That would definitely be a rarity...

[Big Troubles]

never heard of it. interesting.

[Last_Child]

hmm..Cool.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Big Troubles
never heard of it. interesting.

...ditto. I would love to hear it.

[DrMaddVibe]

Gene wanted EdWad, but if there's anything recorded with them Gene would've had it out there already.

[Boston_Kev]

Trust me, these songs were recorded. There are plenty of songs that KISS hasn't released yet. I'd say over 100.

In 1983 when KISS was looking for a guitarist to replace Vinnie Vincent, Eddie Van Halen asked Gene Simmons if he could join kiss because he wasn't getting along with DLR. Gene told him to stick it out and things would work out and they did (for a little bit).

[DrMaddVibe]

Production of "Love Gun" was 1977. Van Halen was in their heyday.

Now I'm not disputing Gene wanting EdWad, but to say that he helped craft songs for "Love Gun" is a joke!

They have a sound that EdWad could play, but he didn't create those songs. Don't forget who engineered that album either!

Kiss has a ton of material in their vault, but if it was as good as you say they would've released in their boxset. Kiss doesn't release music that is incomplete or not up to their standards that's from their own lips, not mine. Don't forget the other side of the group, Paul Stanley. If you don't play the Gene & Paul game and play ball then you're out.

Look at the music that EdWad was creating in '77. It's nothing like "Love Gun"...it was better!

I think you want to believe the "missing songs" but it's not there.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Production of "Love Gun" was 1977. Van Halen was in their heyday.

Now I'm not disputing Gene wanting EdWad, but to say that he helped craft songs for "Love Gun" is a joke!

They have a sound that EdWad could play, but he didn't create those songs. Don't forget who engineered that album either!

Kiss has a ton of material in their vault, but if it was as good as you say they would've released in their boxset. Kiss doesn't release music that is incomplete or not up to their standards that's from their own lips, not mine. Don't forget the other side of the group, Paul Stanley. If you don't play the Gene & Paul game and play ball then you're out.

Look at the music that EdWad was creating in '77. It's nothing like "Love Gun"...it was better! If he played on Gene's solo then he would've listed him in the credits. The solo records were for creative control and would've been a major coup for him. He's not there.

I think you want to believe the "missing songs" but it's not there.

[Rikk]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Kiss has a ton of material in their vault, but if it was as good as you say they would've released in their boxset.

Untrue. In the box set, Gene states in the liner notes that they intended to include the Alex and Eddie CHRISTINE SIXTEEN and GOT LOVE FOR SALE, but that Eddie was pretty much hard to track down and refused to give his permission (which is legally required), and then said he hopes to get permission in the future. But it's apparently totally true. Eddie himself has confirmed this session in interviews.

[bueno bob]

Won't ever happen, for two reasons -

1 - Ed wants all the money; and

2 - Gene wants all the money.

With their combined monumental greed, I'd be very surprised to see them hit the stores at all, ever...I doubt they'd ever see their way through the royalties power struggle.

[DrMaddVibe]

WOW!

EdWad wrote Christine Sixteen, Got Love For Sale and Tunnel of Love and didn't get credit.

He didn't lose his tongue to cancer...the cat ate it!

[Rikk]

He never WROTE the songs. He played on them. They are totally Gene's style.

Eddie couldn't write a rock 'n' roll lyric if his life depended on it.

[DrMaddVibe]

"I liked his solo for 'Christine Sixteen' so much that when the band recorded it for 'Love Gun', Ace pretty much copied Eddie's solo note-for-note"

On the liner notes for his solo album...Richie Ranno (from the Canadian band Starz plays on Tunnel of Love and has a more Ace sound than EdWad!),
Steve Lacey, John Shane Howell, and Joe Perry (plays on Tunnel of Love!)...no EdWad.

Now a jam session is a jam session, but to say that EdWad wrote the music to those...it's not accurate.

[Boston_Kev]

NOBODY said that Eddie Van Halen wrote anything. Gene stated that when it was time to record "Christine Sixteen", Ace pretty much did the same solo EVH did on the demo. EVH didn't get credit because it was a similar solo, not exactly the same.

My original post came straight out of the KISSTORY book that cost like $150. I don't think they would publish that kind of bullshit in there.

Gene states that the song "Tunnle of Love" ended up on his solo disc. NOT the ont he did with the VH bros, just the song itself.

Someone said "Production of "Love Gun" was 1977. Van Halen was in their heyday."

"Love Gun" was recorded in May of 1977. The demos were created months before that.

From KISSTORY- 11/7/76 - Gene discovers "Van Halen" and soon produces their first demo for them. This demo includes: "On Fire", "Woman In Love", "House In Pain", "Runnin' With the Devil", "She's the Woman", "Let's Get Rockin'", "Big Trouble", "Somebody Get Me a Doctor", "Babe, Don't Leave Me Alone" and "Put Out the Lights". Unfortunately, Bill Aucoin and Neil Bogart pass on the opportunity...

Trust me, I am not making this stuff up. It is very true.

[BrownSound1]

I don't think Ace Frehley could play an EVH solo on his best fucking day.

[Boston_Kev]

"Christine Sixteen" isn't all that hard. Little Wolfgang could probably play it.

[Panamark]

I had heard the rumour that it was actually EVH playing the solo on "Christine Sixteen". But this makes more sense, it was ACE
copying Ed's work from a demo...

[gnahh]

Originally posted by Boston_Kev
"Christine Sixteen" isn't all that hard. Little Wolfgang could probably play it.

I agree. The solo in this song sounds alot more like something Ace would write than Eddie. I'm not doubting Gene said it. Maybe his memory is a little foggy.

[monkeythe]

Originally posted by Boston_Kev

My original post came straight out of the KISSTORY book that cost like $150.

You paid $150 for a book???

[Full Bug]

Originally posted by monkeythe
You paid $150 for a book???

Lucky for Gene there is a sucker born every minute....

[Boston_Kev]

NO! I am just saying, they put a book together with all facts from their history. Charging that much money for something, I am sure they're not gonna fill it with bullshit. My point is Gene discovered Van Halen and they became friends. Gene asked them to play on some demos that have yet to be heard outside that circle.

Then I got some dudes like DrMaddVibe talking about "This is not true. I am the know-it-all Van Halen fan so you're wrong". This dude can't even read the post properly without jumping in and making no sense.

Why don't you e-mail Eddie and ask him?

This stull WILL come out eventually.

[Full Bug]

Originally posted by Boston_Kev

Why don't you e-mail Eddie and ask him?

E-mail him? I dunno if that would work, he would have to pick himself up from under the table to reach the computer....

[DrMaddVibe]

Kev, go back and look at what got me out there on this. It's what YOU typed!

Eddie isn't on ANY record with Gene.

Then to go note-for-note Ace copying Ed? The styles aren't even comparable. It's got Ace's signature sound all over iboth songs. On the same record is one of his songs..."Shock Me"...the riffs are almost the same as both "Christine Sixteen" and "Got Love For Sale". Could Ed play it...sure. HE DIDN'T WRITE IT! Listen to it again. Where do you hear Ed's influence?

then....

You bring up "Tunnel of Love"...go to the credits of it. Ed is not there but every other musicain that played on it is. He's not credited with anything.

You want to believe this bullshit so bad that you want to make it true. I believe he had him over had they did play together, Ed wouldn't share anything with Gene. Get real. They both are egomaniacs that can't stand anyone standing in their sunshine.

Did Eddie want to be in Kiss? You bet! Who the fuck wouldn't? Gene probably smelled the alcohol on Ed's skin and told him to go back to Dave and patch it up to get him the fuck out of HIS hair! Besides look at the other guitarists that have played for Kiss besides Ace...all of them were dominated by the Gene and Paul show. Ace had influence with them only because he was an original member but when his personal problems overlapped into the Kiss world he was forced into a corner and eventually out.

Is there a version of them playing? I don't know if it does exsist. Like others have mentioned here on this thread...the ego's and money involved have damned it to be some "missing tape" until one or both kick off!

It's not Van Halen that I know sooooo much about....its KISS. As far as emailing Eddie...that guy can't say sober enough to log on to a forum, so he sure isn't going to reply to any email!

[Boston_Kev]

"Eddie isn't on ANY record with Gene."

Eddie isn't on any record with KISS. I said he plays on demos. Gene said that Ace liked what Eddie did on the demo so he basically copies it. Simple as that. Maybe Eddie played a Kiss-like riff and that is why Ace liked it so much. Don't forget, it was Van Halen playing KISS covers in their early shows, not the other way around.

As for Tunnel of Love, once again. I said that Eddy played on the DEMO. Gene said that Eddie and Alex played on the demo of a song that ended up on his solo record. The SONG not the DEMO.

As far as their egos in 1977, they weren't even close to being what they are now as far as their egos. How could Eddie have had an ego in 1977. He was a NOBODY in 1977. ANg if Gene had an ego, it was in infant form because KISS didn't start getting huge until about a year earlier.

As far as the anti-EVH rant, I'm not even gonna go there because that is what I expect on a DLR board... ..until of course DLR reejoins VH again and everyone is on EVH's nuts...

All of the other guitarists that have played for KISS? Let's see.. After Ace they had a problem getting someone to work for a couple years. They got Vinnie Vincent who they didn't even want but they had to do something. He lasted about 2 years. Mark St. John came in but got sick so he was replaced by Bruce Kulick for the rest of their existence (except for the reunion). You're damn right it was the Gene and Paul show. They kept the band together forever. Just like VH is the Eddie and Alex show.

If you knew so much about KISS, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

[gnahh]

I'm not saying they didn't jam on some songs. Lots of musicians jam together. I'm just saying that the solo doesn't sound like something Eddie would play. Not to take anything away from Ace but Eddie's style of playing was far more technically skilled and the leads on Love Gun are pure Ace. (IMO)

[DrMaddVibe]

'76-'77 Van Halen were spreading their wings and tasting their first real sucess. Headlining the premier clubs in California. They were going to make it with or without Gene Simmons. Kiss was flying high and conquring the World. Look at where they are at this point...1st 3 records don't do so well, but ALIVE! salvages them and their concerts win the fans. Then comes the epic "Destroyer" followed by another tour. "RARO" comes out and now everything is KISS. Then comes "Love Gun". They had already developed a chemistry within the band and in the studio. This was their 2nd effort with Kramer and they were comfortable.

Kiss is unlike any other band going in that they have a knack for giving the opening spot to up and coming talents that would eventually eclipse Kiss. They knew it then and they know it now.

"Lick It Up" is for all rights and purposes a Vinnie Vincent solo album! He was valued from the word go. He felt that he was going to get creative input from them and that wasn't going to happen. He didn't like it and they bounced him. With Kiss he was something, without them...well where is he now? St.John was a relative nobody. Shame about him, but it opened up to one of the Kulicks. Now if you want to accuse anyone of writing Ace's riffs...look to those brothers.

I will put in a email to Ace on this. I don't know if he'll respond to it, but if he does...I'll let you guys know.

[Boston_Kev]

All of this means nothing, all I did was quote Gene Simmons. Go call him a liar.

As far as the Lick It Up stuff, who cares? Post-Ace era kiss to most people is like post- DLR era VH to most of you.

For the most part, everything KISS did after "Unmasked" was albums with 3 or 4 good tracks and 6 or 7 not-so-good tracks.

[nosammy]

ed did record tracks for gene and al did as well......those tapes will never be released.....if you had a band that was as big as kiss, would you intentionally go out of your way to discredit your former mates for a buck?......first, it would alienate fans which means your ticket sales and revenues would be down....second , your credibility from then on with fans who spend money would drop off the radar screen......Chaim won`t destroy his only source of income....that wouldn`t be very jewish...

[Boston_Kev]

How is that a discredit to former mates? They are demos.. Technically they are Gene Simmons demos, not KISS demos. It has nothing to do with sales. Half of that box set that KISS put out 4 or 5 years ago had other musicians all over it. KISS & Van Halen are pretty much done so it wouldn't matter.

The last line calling Gene 'Chaim' was dumb.

[Hardrock69]

Not only that, Chaim has MANY sources of income, so it would not hurt him in the least to release this stuff.

Kev is not wrong. Ed and Alex played on some demos before they were signed to WB.

This means they were SESSION musicians.

Session musicians do not get writer's credit unless they actually wrote some lyrics and melodies for those lyrics.

[DavidLeeNatra]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
I don't think Ace Frehley could play an EVH solo on his best fucking day.

but the studio-guitar-player who recorded all the "ace" stuff on the albums could

[FORD]

Kev is correct as far as what the KISSTORY book says.

And before anybody asks, I won it from a radio station. I wouldn't have paid $150 for a Kiss Koffin, let alone a book.

And at the time the book was originally written, Gene did have every intention of releasing the demo in the KISS boxset. For whatever reasons, Gene lost a sale when that didn't turn out to be the case. I'm a casual KISS fan - only own Alive I & II, Double Platinum, and the Unplugged "reunion" album, and wouldn't go out of my way to buy anything that's not the original lineup. But I would have made an exception for the KISS box if it had contained these demos. Unfortunately, between Eddie & Chaim himself, we may never get to hear them. Even more unfortunately is that the same combination of greed and egos might restrict some of the best material available from turning up in the eventual Van HALEN box set (i.e. the Zero demos, produced by one Chaim Witz)

[UGS]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
I don't think Ace Frehley could play an EVH solo on his best fucking day.

I was about to say that, word for word almost. Not in his fucking LIFE could Ace keep match Ed's work, even if Ed already laid it out for him to copy.

[FORD]

Originally posted by UGS
I was about to say that, word for word almost. Not in his fucking LIFE could Ace keep match Ed's work, even if Ed already laid it out for him to copy.

Could Ace play "Eruption" or "I'm The One", probably not. But in this case, there's always the possibility that Gene told Eddie to keep the solo simple, because it was going to be on a Kiss album, and Ace would have to learn it.

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[Big Fat Sammy]

Originally posted by DavidLeeNatra
but the studio-guitar-player who recorded all the "ace" stuff on the albums could

Slightly unrelated trivia question for the KISS diehards....

...What songs/album does Rick Derringer play guitar on?

Thats the real question to be answered.

[Boston_Kev]

Side 4 of ALIVE II except for "Rocket Ride"

[FORD]

They had to bring in a session guitarist to do a three chord Dave Clark Five cover??

[Big Fat Sammy]

Originally posted by FORD
They had to bring in a session guitarist to do a three chord Dave Clark Five cover??

"The studio tracks on Alive II, forget it-it's Bob Kulick and Rick Derringer. We were slaving away and Ace never even showed up except for his song 'Rocket Ride.' And as early as Destroyer, Peter couldn't or wouldn't play some stuff, so there were ghost kicks flown in."

-Gene Simmons