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Thread: Are the Madrid train bombings a "test case" for a BCE "October Surprise"??

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    Are the Madrid train bombings a "test case" for a BCE "October Surprise"??

    Mar 13, 12:45 PM EST

    Spain Mourns Bomb Victims on Election Eve

    By CIARAN GILES
    Associated Press Writer




    MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Police hunted Saturday for three men seen clad in ski masks carrying backpacks toward trains that were bombed in Spain's worst terrorist attack, while grieving relatives began burying some of the 200 dead.

    Uncertainty about who carried out the bombings left Spaniards perplexed ahead of parliamentary elections Sunday. So far, autopsies of the dead show no evidence of suicide bombings, Spain's interior minister said, suggesting that Islamic terrorists who use such tactics might not have been involved.

    Angel Acebes told a news conference that the Basque separatist group ETA was still the No. 1 suspect in Thursday's bombings, but the government has not ruled out al-Qaida, which had threatened to target U.S. allies from the Iraq war, including Spain.

    "We are working intensely along both lines," Acebes said. "The priority has to be the terrorist group that is most prominent in Spain."

    The Spanish radio station Cadena Ser, which is close to the opposition Socialist Party, quoted sources at the national intelligence agency CNI as saying agents were "99 percent sure" that Islamic militants, not Basque separatists, were behind the attacks.


    The agents believe a 10-15 member cell placed the bombs on the trains and may have fled the country, Cadena Ser said, quoting unnamed sources at the CNI. But CNI director Jorge Dezcallar denied the report, telling the news agency Efe that agents do not favor one line of investigation over another.

    The toll from Thursday's attacks rose to 200 on Saturday when a wounded man died in a hospital, Europa Press said, citing Spain's Health Ministry. Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, only the Bali nightclub bombings that killed 202 people in 2002 were deadlier.

    As a cold drizzle fell on Madrid, what would normally be a day of leisure and reflection before the parliamentary elections instead brought more anguish and mourning. Families started burying and cremating their dead.

    Madrid's biggest funeral home, Tanatorio Sur, was so overcrowded that some coffins were placed in a room normally used for staff meetings. Outside, hearses carried coffins in and out all morning.

    Investigators were focusing on a stolen white van found in the town of Alcala de Henares outside Madrid hours after the blasts. Police found detonators and an Arabic-language cassette tape with Quranic verses inside. Alcala de Henares is the town where three of the four bombed trains originated.

    A doorman told police he saw three young men carrying knapsacks toward the station in Alcala de Henares, a senior police official said Saturday on condition of anonymity. Officials have said the bombs used in the train attacks were concealed in knapsacks.

    The doorman saw the men get out of the van and "walk toward the train carrying backpacks and he was struck by the fact that they were wearing ski masks when the weather was not suited for that kind of clothing," the official said.

    "It is one of the main focuses of the investigation," the official said. "It is very important."

    A London-based Arabic newspaper also received a claim of responsibility in al-Qaida's name that called the attack "part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam."

    The attack's lethal coordination and timing - 10 explosions within 15 minutes - suggested al-Qaida. But the compressed dynamite used in the backpack bombs is an explosive favored by ETA.

    ETA issued an apparently unprecedented denial Friday, saying it had nothing to do with the bombings. It has claimed responsibility for more than 800 deaths since 1968 in its fight for an independent state in the northern Basque region.

    Debate on who is behind the attacks could sway voters in Sunday's election.

    If ETA is deemed responsible, that could boost support for Mariano Rajoy, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's hand-picked candidate to succeed him as prime minister. Both have supported a crackdown on ETA, ruling out talks and backing a ban on ETA's political wing, Batasuna.

    However, if Thursday's bombings are seen by voters as the work of al-Qaida, that could draw their attention to Aznar's vastly unpopular decision to endorse the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and deploy Spanish troops there.

    Opinion polls have put Rajoy 3-5 percentage points ahead of Socialist candidate Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. No surveys have been released since the attacks.

    Aznar, in power since 1996, is honoring a pledge not to seek a third term, saying he wants renewal in government and his party.

    In a show of national unity, massive crowds gathered in Barcelona, Seville, Valencia and even in Spain's Canary Islands off western Africa on Friday night to protest the attack. State TV said nationwide, more than 11 million marched - one-quarter of Spain's 42 million people.

    In Madrid, black bows of mourning dotted the city, on shop windows, on flags draped from balconies, and on lapels.

    Spanish radio station Cadena Ser broadcast a 12-second recording of an unidentified woman who had called a colleague's voice mail after an initial blast on a train at the Atocha station.

    The woman, who survived, was in the process of fleeing as she frantically says: "I'm in Atocha. There's a bomb on the train! We had to -" and then two more blasts are heard.

    Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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    BCE test case? It's sick how a conspiracy theorist's mind works.
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    Re: Are the Madrid train bombings a "test case" for a BCE "October Surprise"??



    No.
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    I beleive FORD meant a test case for Al Queda...as in a test case for bombing us right before elections.
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    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
    BCE test case? It's sick how a conspiracy theorist's mind works.
    It's far sicker how minds work who don't draw the line at mass murder to keep a brainwashed population in fear and belieiving their bullshit. When something does happen in October, remember that.

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    Originally posted by steve
    I beleive FORD meant a test case for Al Queda...as in a test case for bombing us right before elections.
    NO. That's not what he meant. Stick around these boards for awhile and you'll know damned well he doesn't mean al-Qaeda.

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    Originally posted by FORD
    It's far sicker how minds work who don't draw the line at mass murder to keep a brainwashed population in fear and belieiving their bullshit. When something does happen in October, remember that.
    See what I mean, steve? He thinks 9/11 was a Bush masterminded plot, as he does this "October Surprise" he's ranting about.

    BCE = Bush Criminal Empire, in his twisted language.

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    PNAC acknowledges in their own writings that they would need "another Pearl Harbor" in order to justify the implementation of their global fascist agenda. The founding members of PNAC are now the cabinet of George Bush Jr. And the new "PERLE Harbor" happenned right on schedule, with even the likely suspect being an employee of the BCE.

    Only a complete idiot or a brainwashed sheep could honestly say there's no connection at all.

  9. #9
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    the bombings were more likely the liberals way of changing the vote. the bombings happend they all ran out and said it was because of their support for the iraq war so they told the people vote for us and it'll never happed again because we don't support fighting terrorist.
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    Liberals already had support. At one time 90% of Spain was against involvement in the war against Iraq. The government was on the way out before the bombings.

    Nice try.
    Last edited by Pink Spider; 03-15-2004 at 12:27 AM.
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    lucky wilbury
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    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Liberals already had support. Most of Spain was against involvement in the war against Iraq. The government was on the way out before the bombings.

    Nice try.
    the gov was winning in the polls before the attack so try again

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040315/D81AHBR80.html

    Socialists Oust Spain's Ruling Party


    Email this Story

    Mar 14, 9:33 PM (ET)

    By ED McCULLOUGH

    MADRID, Spain (AP) - Spain's Socialists scored a dramatic upset in elections Sunday, unseating conservatives stung by charges they provoked the Madrid terror bombings by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq and making Spain a target for al-Qaida.

    It was the first time a government that backed the Iraq war has been voted out of office. Incoming prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has pledged to bring home the 1,300 troops Spain has stationed in Iraq when their tour of duty ends in July.

    The defeat of Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party and his hand-picked successor capped four tumultuous days starting with the attacks that killed 200 people and wounded 1,500. The attacks were followed by massive street rallies against the bombings and smaller ones against the government.

    The arrest of five suspects, including three Moroccans, and a reported al-Qaida claim of responsibility, raised the disturbing prospect that terrorists aligned with Osama bin Laden had changed the course of a national election. The Spain government has insisted its prime suspect in Thursday's rail bombings was the armed Basque separatist group ETA.

    Before the attacks, polls had given the governing party a lead of 3-5 percentage points.

    With 99 percent of the votes counted, Zapatero's Spanish Socialist Workers Party soared from 125 seats to 164 in the outgoing 350-seat legislature. The ruling Popular Party fell from 183 to 148.

    The Popular Party cannot try to form a governing coalition because it has no virtually no allies in the legislature, where it had enjoyed a majority and was often accused of riding roughshod over opponents.

    Zapatero began his victory speech with a minute of silence for those killed in the terror attacks.

    "At this moment I think of the lives that were broken by terror on Thursday," he said. "My most immediate priority will be to fight terrorism."

    The numbers will leave Zapatero short of a majority - or 176 seats - and he will have to seek help to form a government.

    The Socialists ruled Spain from 1982-1996 but ran afoul of corruption scandals and were voted out of power.

    Savoring victory again outside the Socialist party headquarters, several hundred supporters cheered the results. But they, too, remembered the 200 people killed in Thursday's railway blasts. "Not all of us are here. Two hundred are missing," the crowd shouted.

    "I think the party won because of people's frustration people about the Popular Party getting us into the war in Iraq," said one of them, housewife Loli Carrasco Gomez, 36.

    Of the troops in Iraq, she said: "I hope they all come home and never go back."

    The government had insisted that its prime suspect in the bombings was ETA, even as evidence mounted of an Islamic link. The government was accused of withholding information on the investigation to save the election.

    Throughout Sunday, voters said they lost faith in the ruling party, in power since 1996.

    "I wasn't planning to vote, but I am here today because the Popular Party is responsible for murders here and in Iraq," said Ernesto Sanchez-Gey, 48, who voted in Barcelona.

    Some voters, however, expressed support for the ruling party precisely because it endorsed the Iraq war, and for its crackdown on ETA.

    Mari Carmen Pinadero Martinez, 58, a housewife, said she "voted to help the government end terrorism" as she cast her ballot near the downtown Atocha railway station where trains were bombed.

    In El Pozo northeast of Madrid, site of one of the four blasts, a ruined train car was in clear view of the polling station as were flowers for the victims, signs stating "Paz" (Peace) and dozens of lit candles.

    Some of the voters, teary-eyed, held onto relatives and friends for support.

    On Sunday, a Basque-language daily published a statement by ETA in which the group for a second time denied involvement in the attacks.

    A videotape purportedly from al-Qaida claimed Thursday that the Islamic terror network was behind Thursday's attacks, and Spanish authorities have arrested three Moroccans and two Indian suspects.

    Jamal Zougam, one of the Moroccans, was a follower of suspected al-Qaida leader Imad Yarkas, jailed in Spain for allegedly helping plan the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, according to court documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

    Zougam and thousands of other Moroccans were put under police surveillance after May terrorist bombings in the coastal city of Casablanca that killed 33 people and 12 bombers, a Moroccan official told AP, speaking on condition of anonymity.

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    I doubt the credibility of that poll, but won't argue with it.

    Don't care. They're out now.

  13. #13
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    So Spain wants to tuck tail and run away from the war on terrorism?

    And they elected a socialist government for reasons based upon errorneus preliminary reports that Al Qaida was involved?

    Fucking idiots. I'm crossing Spain off my 'cool list'.

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    Iraq is not al-Qaida. Who ran away from it first?

    Fixing problems in your own country is the best way to end terrorism. Feed a terrorist organization and they just get bigger.
    I think the Spaniards might just prove that theory.

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    This thread alone proves that Liberal's do not love this country if they are not the Puppet Master.

    Someday, when the liberal minded people wake up they will figure out that Bush was the best thing for this country at this particular time.

    Just the things i read in this forum from the left supporters is enough to make me weep because you just-don't-get-it.
    It also has dawned on me that the left doesn't like independant thinkers because they cannot be manipulated into believing trumped up charges without "PROOF" of said conspiracies.

    I do not want the America you have planned for us because it flies in the face of everything my faith leads me to believe.
    We sat through 8 years of nothing leadership with Clinton, yet you lib's have been kicking and screaming since day 1 of the Bush Admin.

    Where is the fair and equal representation for those of us who do not see eye to eye with YOUR political visions?
    We don't rate a voice or an opinion on how a strong Nation should be run?
    The only idiots in this country are the one's that think that one political party is more honest than the other. the one who thinks that any party has the interests of those who actually make it function....The hard working tax payers making $35,000 a year.

    Here's the kicker. it doesn't matter who sits in the oval office in Washington because everything we are witnessing in our world was written about in the scriptures and it will come to pass whether you like it or not, believe it or not, embrace it or not.

    You can blame whomever you want. lay it at the feet of a political party, but understand one thing folks.....It is ALL MAN who is to blame for the fate of this world.

    I saw some footage of John Kerry attending a church service the other day and was shocked to see that when the pastor started talking about abortion Kerry got up and walked out of the service.

    You can pick and choose which party to vote for, but you cannot pick and choose which scriptures you agree with and don't.

    So many people in this country are not being represented by our government on both sides of the isle it is pathetic. Political Correctness is responsible for basically setting our temperment back to the dark ages and the result will be total and complete anarchy in the streets if the sane minded folk on both sides refuse to put a stop to it. the voters simply don't have that power thanks to a thing called The Electorate.......
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    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Iraq is not al-Qaida.
    Who said it was?

    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Who ran away from it first?
    Define it.

    F
    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Fixing problems in your own country is the best way to end terrorism. Feed a terrorist organization and they just get bigger.
    I think the Spaniards might just prove that theory.
    Are you suggesting we Americans elect Kerry and turn into a nation of spineless pussies like France and Germany? No thanks, pal.

  17. #17
    Flash Bastard
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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    This thread alone proves that Liberal's do not love this country if they are not the Puppet Master.

    Someday, when the liberal minded people wake up they will figure out that Bush was the best thing for this country at this particular time.

    Just the things i read in this forum from the left supporters is enough to make me weep because you just-don't-get-it.
    It also has dawned on me that the left doesn't like independant thinkers because they cannot be manipulated into believing trumped up charges without "PROOF" of said conspiracies.

    I do not want the America you have planned for us because it flies in the face of everything my faith leads me to believe.
    We sat through 8 years of nothing leadership with Clinton, yet you lib's have been kicking and screaming since day 1 of the Bush Admin.

    Where is the fair and equal representation for those of us who do not see eye to eye with YOUR political visions?
    We don't rate a voice or an opinion on how a strong Nation should be run?
    The only idiots in this country are the one's that think that one political party is more honest than the other. the one who thinks that any party has the interests of those who actually make it function....The hard working tax payers making $35,000 a year.

    Here's the kicker. it doesn't matter who sits in the oval office in Washington because everything we are witnessing in our world was written about in the scriptures and it will come to pass whether you like it or not, believe it or not, embrace it or not.

    You can blame whomever you want. lay it at the feet of a political party, but understand one thing folks.....It is ALL MAN who is to blame for the fate of this world.

    I saw some footage of John Kerry attending a church service the other day and was shocked to see that when the pastor started talking about abortion Kerry got up and walked out of the service.

    You can pick and choose which party to vote for, but you cannot pick and choose which scriptures you agree with and don't.

    So many people in this country are not being represented by our government on both sides of the isle it is pathetic. Political Correctness is responsible for basically setting our temperment back to the dark ages and the result will be total and complete anarchy in the streets if the sane minded folk on both sides refuse to put a stop to it. the voters simply don't have that power thanks to a thing called The Electorate.......
    Preach on, brother Cat.

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    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Iraq is not al-Qaida. Who ran away from it first?

    Fixing problems in your own country is the best way to end terrorism. Feed a terrorist organization and they just get bigger.
    I think the Spaniards might just prove that theory.
    I disagree that fixing our own country will defeat Terrorism.
    It is allowing Dictators to stay in power when we have the power to remove them that makes them hate us.
    Not to pump up Ford's boat here, but America was dealing with these thugs years ago while the citizens suffered at the hand of their leader and the evil regime's. (Sorry Ford, but both sides were involved in those deals)
    They can not understand why we stood by, made deals, and ignored their plight. So they banded together, created terrorist cells all in the name of bringing the US to its knee's.
    What they fail to understand is that we will never buckle to their tactics, ever.

    This shocks me because nobody seems to be talking about why the terrorists target us. But if you do some homework and go to the source (the middle east) and ask the citizens there, they will tell you it is because we have a history of buddying up with dictators all in the name of profit and political agendas.
    meanwhile they are allowed to suffer by a great Nation that is known for liberating the oppressed.
    I don't blame them one bit for striking us given that information, they clearly see us as supporters of their suffering.

    Removing Saddam Hussein was a great strategic move in the direction of changing that image of America.
    It will however be for not if we don't stay the course and bring freedom to those who hunger for something they see but never taste.

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    Originally posted by Flash Bastard
    Who said it was?

    Lots of people.

    Define it.

    The war on terror.

    Are you suggesting we Americans elect Kerry and turn into a nation of spineless pussies ( ) like France and Germany?
    Have you ever read any my posts on here? Kerry has little support on this board.

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    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Liberals already had support. At one time 90% of Spain was against involvement in the war against Iraq. The government was on the way out before the bombings.

    Nice try.
    Either way, they're putting their tails between their legs and running like the cowards they are. And I'm talking about their new government, not their troops.

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    He even has less support from a majority of his own party but that will not keep power hungry Democrats from rushing to vote for him.

    But i think we'll give Bush another 4 years just so he can fix everything Clinton left a mess.
    The biggest lie a Liberal tells him or herself is that Clinton did anything but ride the coatails of an economy he had nothing to do with and the "fact" that it was declining before he left office seems to be ignored by you horn blowers that try to convince yourselves and others that he was the one responsible for such a great economy.
    He taxed the people like crazy and built up a surplus from the funds that should have been returned to those who earned it.

    Bush did exactly that and i certainly got my money and i'm not rich. that is just another partisan poltiical lie by the left.
    What gets me is how the Liberals can twist facts and distort issues right in front of those who know better and never have to answer for their inconsistencies.

    I am an independant thinker and follow the beat of my own drum, which is why Liberals don't like me much. I cannot be convinced of anything without proof to support accusations no matter how appealing a conspiracy theory may seem.
    Sure it looks good and supports your agenda, but is it the truth? More often than not it isn't.
    I also love how John Kerry manages to avoid answering questions about rediculous, undocumented and unproven alligations he keeps making about the Bush Admin.

    I just hope the man doesn't actually think he can win in November, but liars do tend to believe their own stories after awhile.

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    Well said, Cat.

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    It's another blinding success for Al Queda whether they did it or not.

    Them claiming responsibility effectively overthrew a Western democratic government,

    I don't think I will be travelling around the next time there is an election on so they're starting to beat me too...
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    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
    Either way, they're putting their tails between their legs and running like the cowards they are. And I'm talking about their new government, not their troops.
    It's only 1300 troops anyway, they can leave now for all i care so why wait till June?

    Pay close attention to this situation because it will be an example of what happens here at home if Kerry wins the election.
    I'll personally consider leaving America the day we cut and run from any Terrorist Organization.

    Which by the way is what Kerry will do if he actually beats Bush.

    If you were ever bullied in school you would understand that NOT fighting back will only get you bullied tomorrow by other bullies.

    Fight back and you earn the respect of those bullies, especially when you knock them on their ass.
    Then you either become a defender of those who are bullied or become a bully yourself..........I prefer to stand up for the weak and defend their honor no matter what part of the world they reside in.

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    Originally posted by Cathedral

    If you were ever bullied in school you would understand that NOT fighting back will only get you bullied tomorrow by other bullies.

    Fight back and you earn the respect of those bullies, especially when you knock them on their ass.
    When I was really young, around 1st through 4th grade, my father gave me permission to use a baseball bat if necessary.

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    It's another blinding success for Al Queda whether they did it or not.

    Them claiming responsibility effectively overthrew a Western democratic government,

    I don't think I will be travelling around the next time there is an election on so they're starting to beat me too...
    What you have to do Sesh is get your mind set NOT to be afraid of death, it will come to all of us eventually and i'd rather not live in fear between now and then.
    If i got on a plane today and it was blown out of the sky i can accept the fact that it was simply my time to go.
    I believe that when your number is up it won't make any difference where you are or what you are doing, Death will find you...

    I fear no man on this earth and i thank my father for teaching me never to back down from anyone, win or lose...

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    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
    When I was really young, around 1st through 4th grade, my father gave me permission to use a baseball bat if necessary.
    LOL, that would be a little axtreme, but then again who am i to say since i used a gun at one point in my past to back down a black dude who was pushing me around.

    It all came to a head in gym class one day and he was running his mouth so i walked up to him and drilled him full force in the chest.
    He got up and pretty much kicked my butt, but we became friends after that incident....See, i earned his respect by NOT running and hiding and the trouble certainly would have continued until i took a stand.

    Don't let someone intimidate you in any way shape or form if you want to be happy. Living in fear is not living my friends...

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    Well, it'll be interesting to see the contrast. We got attacked and sent troops across the globe to fight back.

    Spain got attacked and recalls all her troops.

    I wonder what'll happen, but I bet Spain gets attacked anytime a terrorist wants something from them
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    Heh heh heh... Better get used to it Ford. You're cute little posters aren't gonna win the white house for Kerry. The "Hate platform" didn't even win Dean your own party's primary.
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    Originally posted by FORD
    Hmmmmmm, weren't you the guy who was always giving me crap because i was condeming people that had differing lifestyles???

    Judgement should be reserved for the creator of all things, especially when you are so unreasonable that you compare a good man to a mad man...

    How very Judas Iscariot of you, Ford...

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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    What you have to do Sesh is get your mind set NOT to be afraid of death, it will come to all of us eventually and i'd rather not live in fear between now and then.
    If i got on a plane today and it was blown out of the sky i can accept the fact that it was simply my time to go.
    I believe that when your number is up it won't make any difference where you are or what you are doing, Death will find you...

    I fear no man on this earth and i thank my father for teaching me never to back down from anyone, win or lose...
    easier said than done, Cat
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    Ally, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
    You have the ability within you to decide how all of this affects you and chances are you will personally never be a victim of an attack.

    Don't let them get to you sweetie or they have won the battle...

    I now have the movie "Stripes" playing in my head, lol...

    "Boom chugga lugga lugga Boom chugga lugga lugga Boom"

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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    Hmmmmmm, weren't you the guy who was always giving me crap because i was condeming people that had differing lifestyles???

    Judgement should be reserved for the creator of all things, especially when you are so unreasonable that you compare a good man to a mad man...

    How very Judas Iscariot of you, Ford...
    First, I can't be Judas Iscariot, because he betrayed Someone who he claimed to love and trust. I never claimed to love or trust George Bush Jr. Nor am I betraying that fucking criminal son of a bitch by pointing out his fascism..

    As for the comparisons between Bush Jr and Hitler, there's nothing unreasonable about that at all......

    The Bush Hitler Thing
    t r u t h o u t | Reader Submission

    Friday 09 January 2004

    Dear Sir,

    My family was one of Hitler's victims. We lost a lot under the Nazi occupation, including an uncle who died in the camps and a cousin killed by a booby trap. I was terrified when my father went ballistic after finding my brother and me playing with a hand grenade. (I was only 12 at the time, and my brother insisted the grenade was safe.) I remember the rubble and the hardships of 'austerity' - and the bomb craters from Allied bombs. As late as the 1980s, I had to take detours while bombs were being removed - they litter the countryside, buried under parking lots,buildings, and in the canals and rivers to this day. Believe me, I learned a lot about Hitler while I was growing up, both in Europe and here in the US - both my parents were in the war and talked about it constantly, unlike most American families. I spent my earliest years with the second-hand fear that trickled down from their PTSD - undiagnosed and untreated in those days.

    I'm no expert on WWII - but I learned a lot about what happened in Germany - and Europe - back in those days. I always wondered how the wonderful German people - so honest, decent, hard-working, friendly, and generous - could ever allow such a thing to happen. (There were camps near my family's home - they still talk about them only in hushed conspiratorial whispers.) I asked a lot of questions - we were only a few kilometers from the German border - and no one ever denied me. My relatives had obviously spent a lot of time thinking about the war - they still haven't forgotten - I don't think anyone can forget such a horrible nightmare. Among the questions I asked:

    Why didn't you do anything about the people in the camps?

    Everyone was terrified. People 'disappeared' into those camps. Sometimes the Nazis came and lined everyone up, walking behind them - even school children - with a cocked pistol. You never knew when they would just shoot someone in the back of the head. Everyone was terrified. Everyone was disarmed - guns were registered, so all the Nazis had to do was go from house to house and demand the guns.

    Didn't you see what was happening?

    We saw. There was nothing we could do. Our military had no modern weapons. The Nazis had technology and resources - they just invaded and took over - we were overwhelmed by their air power. They had spies everywhere - people spying on each other, just to have an 'ace in the hole' in case they were accused - and anyone who had a grudge against you could accuse you of something - just an accusation meant you'd disappear. Nobody dared ask where you had gone - anyone who returned was considered suspicious - what had they said, and who did they implicate? It was a climate of fear - there's nothing anyone can do when the government uses fear and imprisonment to intimidate people. The government was above the law - even in Germany, it became 'every man for himself'. Advancement was possible by exposing 'traitors' - anyone who questioned the government. It didn't matter if the people you accused were guilty or not - just the accusation was enough.

    Did anyone know what was going on?

    We all knew. We imagined the worst because the Nazis made 'examples' of a few people in every town and village. Public torture and execution. The most unspeakable atrocities were committed in full view of everyone. If this is what happened in public, can you imagine what might be going on in the camps? Nobody wanted to know.

    Why didn't the German people stop the Nazis?

    Life was better, at first, under the Nazis. The war machine invigorated the economy - men had jobs again, and enough money to take care of their family. New building projects were everywhere. The shops were full again - and people could afford good food, culture, and luxuries. Women could stay home in comfort. Crime was reduced. Health care improved. It was a rosy scenario - Hitler brought order and prosperity. His policies won widespread approval because life was better for most Germans, after the misery of reparations and inflation. The people liked the idea of removing the worst elements of society - the gypsies, the homosexuals, the petty criminals - it was easy to elicit support for prosecuting the corrupt 'evil'people poisoning society. Every family was proud of their hometown heroes - the sharply-dressed soldiers they contributed to his program - they were, after all,defending the Fatherland. Continuing a proud tradition that had been defeated and shamed after WWI, the soldiers gave the feeling of power and success to the proud families that showered them with praise and support. Their early victories were reason to celebrate - in spite of the fact that they faced poorly armed inferior forces - further proof that what they were doing was right, and the best thing for the country. The news was full of stories about their bravery and accomplishments against a vile enemy. They were 'liberating' these countries from their corrupt governments.

    These are some of the answers I gleaned over the years. As a child, I was fascinated with the Nazis. I thought the German soldiers were really something - that's how strong an impression they made, even after the war. After all, they weren't the ones committing war crimes - they were the pride of their families and communities. It was just the SS and Gestapo that were 'bad'. Now I know better -but that pride in the military was a strong factor for many years, only adding to the mystique of military power - after all, my father had been a soldier too, but in the American army. It took a while to figure out the truth.

    Every time I've gone back to Europe, someone has taken me to the 'gardens of stone' - the Allied cemeteries that dot the countryside. With great sadness, my relatives would stand in abject misery, remembering the nightmare, and asking 'Why?'. Maybe that's why they wouldn't support the US invasion of Iraq. They knew war. They knew occupation. And they knew resistance. I saw the building where British flyers hid on their way back to England - smuggled out by brave families that risked the lives of everyone to help the Allies. As a child, I had played in a basement, where the cow lived under the house, as is common there. The same place those flyers hid.

    So why, now, when I hear GWB's speeches, do I think of Hitler? Why have I drawn a parallel between the Nazis and the present administration? Just one small reason -the phrase 'Never forget'. Never let this happen again. It is better to question our government - because it really can happen here - than to ignore the possibility.

    So far, I've seen nothing to eliminate the possibility that Bush is on the same course as Hitler. And I've seen far too many analogies to dismiss the possibility. The propaganda. The lies. The rhetoric. The nationalism. The flag waving. The pretext of 'preventive war'. The flaunting of international law and international standards of justice. The disappearances of 'undesirable' aliens. The threats against protesters. The invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation. The occupation of a hostile country. The promises of prosperity and security. The spying on ordinary citizens. The incitement to spy on one's neighbors - and report them to the government. The arrogant triumphant pride in military conquest. The honoring of soldiers. The tributes to 'fallen warriors. The diversion of money to the military. The demonization of government appointed 'enemies'. The establishment of 'Homeland Security'. The dehumanization of 'foreigners'. The total lack of interest in the victims of government policy. The incarceration of the poor and mentally ill. The growing prosperity from military ventures. The illusion of 'goodness' and primacy. The new einsatzgrupen forces. Assassination teams. Closed extralegal internment camps. The militarization of domestic police. Media blackout of non-approved issues. Blacklisting of protesters - including the no-fly lists and photographing dissenters at rallies.

    There isn't much doubt in my mind - anyone who compares the history of Hitler's rise to power and the progression of recent events in the US cannot avoid the parallels. It's incontrovertible. Is Bush another Hitler? Maybe not, but with each incriminating event, the parallel grows -it certainly cannot be dismissed. There's too much evidence already. Just as Hitler used American tactics to plan and execute his reign, it looks as if Karl Rove is reading Hitler's playbook to plan world domination - and that is the stated intent of both. From the Reichstag fire to the landing at Nuremberg to the motto of "Gott Mit Uns" to the unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq to the insistence that peace was the ultimate goal, the line is unbroken and unwavering.

    I'm afraid now, that what may still come to pass is a reign far more savage and barbaric than that of the Nazis. Already, appeasement has been fruitless - it only encourages the brazen to escalate their arrogance and braggadocio. Americans support Bush - by a generous majority - and mass media sings his praises while indicting his detractors - or silencing their opinions completely. The American people seem to care only about the domestic economic situation - and even in that, they are in complete denial. They don't want to hear about Iraq, and Afghanistan is already forgotten. Even the Democratic opposition supports the occupation of Iraq. Everyone seems to agree that Saddam Hussein deserves to be executed -with or without a trial. 'Visitors' are fingerprinted. Guilty until proven innocent. Snipers are on New York City rooftops. When do the Stryker teams start appearing on American streets? They're perfectly suited for 'Homeland Security' - and they've had a trial run in Iraq. The Constitution has been suspended - until further notice. Dick Cheney just mentioned it may be for decades - even a generation, as Rice asserts as well. Is this the start of the 1000 year reign of this new collection of thugs? So it would seem.

    I can only hope that in the coming year there will be some sign - some hint - that we are not becoming that which we abhor. The Theory of the Grotesque fares all too well these days. It may not be Nazi Germany - it might be a lot worse.

    SL | Wisconsin

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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    Ally, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
    You have the ability within you to decide how all of this affects you and chances are you will personally never be a victim of an attack.

    Don't let them get to you sweetie or they have won the battle...

    I now have the movie "Stripes" playing in my head, lol...

    "Boom chugga lugga lugga Boom chugga lugga lugga Boom"
    what happened in Spain can easily happen here in my neck of the woods, and if the assholes play their cards right, they can get double the casulties.

    The whole don't be afraid or the terrorists will win isn't even a factor anymore. I can be brave when i ride the subway, or i can be paranoid. If my car goes ka-boom, they get they win over me.

    The thing is, I know where the weaknesses are. And anyone who lives here for more than a month knows where the weaknesses are. Anyone can carry anything onto the subways and just leave it there. And I've heard stories about some scary finds on some of the lines that weren't reported on the news cuz my uncle works for the MTA. Everytime they stop service cuz of a 'suspisious package', I start thinking about what he's told me. I can't take too much more of this.

    It's going to happen and I'm waiting for the day.

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    That's a good article, almost makes me wish i had no German blood in my veins.
    But was this supposed to be proof?
    One mans account of what his family suffered through?
    You can draw any conclusion you want from just about any wartime story in the history of the world. it seems to me the man was conditioned in his view of history.
    But the fact is that i don't see the Bush Admin. killing people just for being a Jew...

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    Originally posted by Ally_Kat

    It's going to happen and I'm waiting for the day.
    so is a car crash. do you wait for that? more people die in car crashes then die in terrorist attacks. even in 2001, many more americans died in car crashes.

    yes, odds are another terrorist attack on mainland U.S.A. will happen. no, you shouldn't completely ignore that. you remain a little more vigilant, just as the authorities are.

    2600-some dead in new york was too many (like 2600-some too many.) but statistically, it was a very small percentage up there. that's how you think about it. sure, the subway (or the metro down here) may get attacked. put 100,000s of thousands (if not millions in new york) use it every day. even if something does happen, odds are overwhelming that i'll be ok.

    since we can't ever fully eliminate the threat, that's how you go on and live your life.
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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    It's another blinding success for Al Queda whether they did it or not.

    Yep. You're right.

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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    LOL, that would be a little axtreme, but then again who am i to say since i used a gun at one point in my past to back down a black dude who was pushing me around.
    My brother-in-law cautioned me about flipping off this black dude once. He said it was a good way of getting shot.

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    Originally posted by Dr. Love
    Well, it'll be interesting to see the contrast. We got attacked and sent troops across the globe to fight back.

    The contrast has already been done, doc. Just look at the WTC attacks in '93, Khobar Towers, and the USS Cole attacks. We responded, if at all, rather weakly. Al-Qaeda just kept on coming. It's time we stepped on these cockroaches instead of shooing them out the door.

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