I'm one of the few traditional fans that actually like the DH...to be honest here...
but...as of late...there really aren't many DH's that are any good.
Really...only Raul Ibanez, Travis Hafner and David Ortiz are regular DH's...the prototypes...
So...if you have a DH spot...and that spot isn't an above average offensive player...then...WTF not just have the fucking pitchers hit...
is it time?
"Van Halen was one of the most hallelujah, tailgate, backyard, BBQ, arrive four hours early to the gig just for the parking lot bands. And still to this day is. It's an attitude. I think it's a spirit more than anything else is."
No way....
Would you rather see someone up there who can hit, or someone who bats .091?
I do respect the strategy that comes with a pitcher having an at bat, but shit, I like the streamlined version...
Maybe something to do with growing up in an A.L. city but I just like offense.
Fuck Scott Weiland. Fucking asshole. I get trashed all the time and still go to work. And my job sucks ass. -ODShowtime
Hell yeah it's time to get rid of it, it's been time....
I like the strategy...
I like the bunting...
I like the double switches at the end of the game...
You can basically put an AL game on autopilot after setting the lineup...
You ever notice that most of the beanbrawls happen in the AL ??
You really don't wonder why that is, do you ??
Eat Us And Smile - The Originals
"I have a very belligerent enthusiasm or an enthusiastic belligerence. I’m an intellectual slut." - David Lee Roth
"We are part of the, not just the culture, but the geography. Van Halen music goes along with like fries with the burger." - David Lee Roth
I also see less people sleeping in the American League stands...
Yeah, there's nothing I like better than watching a fat manager think. (ELR)Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
I like the strategy...
You ever notice that most of the beanbrawls happen in the AL ??
You really don't wonder why that is, do you ??
Thing about the beanballs is, in the AL, if a pitcher is gonna go after a batter, he knows that if there's retailiation, it's not gonna be against him but one of his teammates. I think that keeps the beanings down.
Look, I prefer the DH but at the end of the day I could give a rat's ass whether they keep it or not. The thing I get tired of is the NL fans, players and managers crying about it. A few years back, Tony Gywnn of the Padres was crying that he didn't like DHing because it was hard to keep stretched/warmed up as a DH so he was worried about injuries. Try digging a ditch for 6 bucks a hour Tony, you can stay loose that way.
"If anyone came here hoping to hear Sammy Hagar Van Halen, there's the fucking door, man!" Ralph Saenz, Atomic Punks
"Carpe Mammarium"
Originally posted by POJO_Risin
I also see less people sleeping in the American League stands...
I'm sorry...did you say something?...I just woke up from watching St. Louis and Atlanta...my bad...
It is pretty fucking funny how much these fuckers are out of reality...Originally posted by EbDawson
A few years back, Tony Gywnn of the Padres was crying that he didn't like DHing because it was hard to keep stretched/warmed up as a DH so he was worried about injuries. Try digging a ditch for 6 bucks a hour Tony, you can stay loose that way.
Well, there ya go.
Neither of you two said anything why the DH should be kept IN....
I'll admit, I've accepted the AL game for what it is...
I just personally prefer the NL game, where not having the DH at least provides a little more to the game, especially in close games....
In the NL, you NEED that 25 man roster....
In the AL, you could get away with 20....
First of all...the only reason why I want to get rid of the DH is because of the lack of quality players DHing...
second of all...the "strategy" horseshit is just that.
People make the "strategy" in the NL sound like a fucking chess game...which is about fucking ludicrous.
You can count good bunters with one hand in both leagues...and that's the truth...can't even be refuted because the art is so gone.
and double switches? Jesus Christ...yeah...wonderful...big deal...so essentially...what you do with a double switch...is get a guy in the lineup for offensive purposes so that the pitcher doesn't have to hit.
THEY ARE RARE in the NL now...with specialized pitchers...
double switches DO get magnified in the playoffs though...so I'll concede playoff double switches...
so...you've essentially given us bunting and double switches as the defense for no DH...
and dude...that's like defending not having to drink water...when you can drink cool aid...
Why keep the DH?
Simple...
it's a better game. It makes the pitchers have to be better...it makes the offenses better...EVEN if the offensive players aren't as good at the DH position...
and I disagree...because of the better offense...you need more specialized relievers in the AL...
your 25-20 roster statement is just plain wrong.
maybe 25-23...I don't disagree with that at all...for a nine inning game...
but all the rest of your points are the merits that are brought up every year...and just don't hold down any weight.
20 man roster...
I don't think YOU believe have the stuff you post sometimes...
LOL, depends on what kind of mood I'm in whether I believe my own stuff....
How can do say that strategy is horseshit ??
That's exactly where my 25 man arguement comes into play....
The fact that there are less and less good bunters is EXACTLY why a good bunter is so much more valuable....
In fact, I'd attribute the downfall of bunting specifically to the AL !!!
And double switches is yet another reason that it's so important to have a good bench....
The bottom line, IMO, is that baseball was meant to be played with 9 starting players, not 10...
Irregardless of your opinion whether the merits hold any weight....
So let me get this straight...you are blaming the AL for the NL's ineptness at developing someone to bunt?
dream on. Bunting is an art that you can learn in spring training...easily...
I know where your 25 man roster comes into play...but it's not like you have 4 or 5 double switches a game...at most...2...and that's rare...
and gee...you have to be brilliant to figure out that you need to get your pitcher out of a hitters position if you are down late in the game. lmfao...
so you said that good bunters are valuable because there are less and less good bunters...which you've blamed on the DL...
so...your essentially saying that the value of employing a good bunter in the NL is directly BECAUSE of the DH...
so I guess...subliminally..you want the DH to stay...
Va...you are to smart to say that the strategy in the NL is why the DH sucks...
because any person with rudimentary understanding of the game can teach someone how to bunt...and know how to double switch...and which situations to do it in...
the ONLY time it effects the outcome of a game that may hold salt in this conversation...is if some dimwit double switches in the fifth (very rare)...and loses a player they need later in the game...
generally speaking...when the double switch is pulled...there is no strategy...
it's not an opinion...it's fact...
if it were fact...then the DH would have disappeared years ago...
I don't believe I ever said the DH sucks....
I did say, however, that I just prefer that the game be played the NL way...
I think you're focusing in too much on the bunting and the double switching...
The main point I was trying to make is that in the AL, there are very few moves made outside of the starting nine...
You don't have to take the pitcher's AB's into account, which for you as a DH fan you may think is a waste of time...
But I am what they call a baseball purist, my friend... I prefer watching all nine players on defense also hit...
Well Mr. Baseball Purist...for anyone that's ever played the game...and I did through college...I've played the game with the pitchers batting...
the strategy of a game rarely lived and died with any switches that we made...involving a double switch...unless it put in a dominating reliever...
In-game strategy 9 times out of 10 wins the game...
did you get the guy going for 2 on a run scoring single...
did you position your players correctly for a pull hitter...did you have a solid righty lineup against a lefty pitcher...
did you hold the basestealer on first.
did you hit the right cutoff guy...
and then it comes to talent after that...
The ONLY difference in a pitcher swinging the bat...is if you have a good one...
pitching to a normal shitty hitting pitcher in the majors equates to a break for everyone in the field...a double switch works out to a modified DH many times...
there is barely a difference anymore...
Hell...in the Indians game the other night both DH's batted ninth...
So, in essence, we don't really disagree too much on this, do we ??
Or am I just confused by your rants as usual ??
I think we look at it the same way...but you overvalue the NL side of it...
and I overvalue the AL side of it...
I think bunting's gone downhill because players are more worried about Home Runs, extra base hits, RBI's hence cash incentives in their contracts more than they are about moving the base runners along and winning games. I know coaches/managers call for bunts but I don'tthink many players really work at it or concern themselves with it.
Ive heard so many reasons why the DH was started all the way from
in th AL pitcher didnt hit so the rotation needed to be even or
some such stuff .
Save me hours of research or point me in the rite direction.
Why, When and What is(was) the purpose of the DH??
As long as theres not to much typing involved this question is off
subject .. thanks
Here ya go kids, This was a pretty good article on the history of the DH.
SI.com-baseball-dh
Three decades ago, Ron Blomberg, a 24-year-old first baseman and outfielder for the New York Yankees, walked to the plate at a chilly Fenway Park and dug in against the menacing mug of Red Sox pitcher Luis Tiant. And in one of those rare moments that change the face of sports, Blomberg became baseball's first designated hitter.
Now here we sit, these 30 years later. After six Yankees World Series titles, the birth of six more franchises, and some 14 Yankees managers later. And, yes, six work stoppages since that fateful day in '73.
The designated hitter is still here.
Still digging in at every American League game -- and for some All-Star games, half the interleague games and at every World Series game played in an AL park.
Here we are, too, still debating the pros and cons of the DH. Still debating whether a game with a DH is real baseball or something just akin to the real thing. Still debating which league is better: The more traditional, more nuanced National League or the bangers' league, the hitters' haven, the home of the DH, the AL.
"Has it really been that long?" asks Braves manager Bobby Cox, a DH user back when he managed the Toronto Blue Jays in the mid '80s. "Man, it doesn't seem like it."
Ah, but it has been that long. The designated hitter has been on life support a couple of times, just a vote or two away from abolishment. But it has stuck around, even flourished. It has been around long enough to change who plays the game, how it is played -- really, it has touched the whole game, from the bottom line up.
The DH has made careers. It's certainly extended many. It has become, for those who believe in it, a legitimate part of baseball.
And even for those who don't believe in it, it's a part of the game now, like it or not.
"I think it's outlived its usefulness," says Buck Martinez, a user of the DH as a manager of the Blue Jays in 2001-02.
Baseball folks had talked about getting someone to hit for the pitcher for years, maybe as far back as the late 1800s. Some minor leagues tried the DH in the '40s, and it was toyed with here and there in lower-level ball for a couple of decades.
By 1968, pitchers were absolutely handcuffing hitters in the major leagues. Denny McLain won 31 games for the Detroit Tigers that year. Bob Gibson went 22-9 with a 1.12 ERA for the St. Louis Cardinals. Cincinnati's Pete Rose hit .335, but the top hitter in the AL, Boston's Carl Yastrzemski, hit just .301.
The dominance of pitchers prompted some rules changes, including the lowering of the mound. And it forced the AL to look into the DH a little more closely.
The AL was, in many ways, the junior circuit: The NL scored more runs, drew more people and generally was considered the better product. So, in January of 1973, the AL voted to institute the DH on a three-year trial basis.
Thirty years later, the DH has made the AL, clearly, the more offensive league. In every year since Blomberg stepped to the plate in Boston -- he drew a four-pitch, bases-loaded walk from Tiant that first time up -- the AL has had a higher batting average than the NL.
The impact of the rule was immediately felt. Some of the greatest players in the history of the game became DHs over the last few years of their careers. Home run king Henry Aaron spent two years in Milwaukee at the end of his career (in 1975 and '76, when the Brewers were in the AL), playing more than 200 games as a DH and slamming 32 homers. Tigers great Al Kaline played the last year of his Hall of Fame career (1974) as a DH, hitting .246 in 146 games -- and collecting his 3,000th hit.
Professional Hitters
Recipients of the Associated Press Outstanding Designated Hitter Award:
Year Player, Team
1973 Orlando Cepeda, BOS
1974 Tommy Davis, BAL
1975 Willie Horton, DET
1976 Hal McRae, KC
1977 Jim Rice, BOS
1978 Rusty Staub, DET
1979 Willie Horton, SEA
1980 Hal McRae, KC
1981 Greg Luzinski, CWS
1982 Hal McRae, KC
1983 Greg Luzinski, CWS
1984 Dave Kingman, OAK
1985 Don Baylor, NYY
1986 Don Baylor, BOS
1987 Harold Baines, CWS
1988 Harold Baines, CWS
1989 Dave Parker, OAK
1990 Dave Parker, MIL
1991 Chili Davis, MIN
1992 Dave Winfield, TOR
1993 Paul Molitor, TOR
1994 No Award Issued
1995 Edgar Martinez, SEA
1996 Paul Molitor, MIN
1997 Edgar Martinez, SEA
1998 Edgar Martinez, SEA
1999 Rafael Palmeiro, TEX
2000 Edgar Martinez, SEA
2001 Edgar Martinez, SEA
2002 Ellis Burks, CLE
Eddie Murray finished with 3,255 hits in a Hall of Fame career but probably wouldn't have broken 3,000 if not for spending the last four years primarily as a DH. Hall of Famers Dave Winfield and Reggie Jackson were DHs, too.
Still, the best DHs were not one-dimensional sluggers or hitters on their last legs. Hal McRae played in more than 1,400 games as a DH with Kansas City from 1973-87.
"Hal, he could hit, hit with power, he could run, steal a base," says Pat Corrales, who managed DHs with Texas in 1979 and '80 and in Cleveland from '83-'87. "If you got a guy like McRae, great. But that's the DH. It's a good rule if you have a good DH."
Paul Molitor is another of the all-time great DHs. He spent the last eight years of a 21-year career DHing almost exclusively, finishing with nearly 1,200 games as a DH and a lifetime .306 batting average. He was the first DH to steal more than 20 bases. He, too, probably would not have broken the 3,000-hit barrier (he had 3,319) without the DH rule.
Then you have a guy like Tom Paciorek. In 1978, he had already been cut twice by the Braves, and was playing for the Seattle Mariners when manager Darrell Johnson stuck him in as a DH against Milwaukee ace Mike Caldwell. Paciorek went 4-for-4 that day, including a home run, and hit another homer the next day.
On the verge of being cut, he stuck with the Mariners, hit .299 and played for nine more years in the big leagues.
"I owe the last nine years of my career to the DH," he says.
These days, Edgar Martinez of the Mariners is considered the class of the DHs. He's been the team's DH every year since 1995, hitting .325 since then. In '95, he hit .356, becoming the only DH ever to win the batting title.
Though DHs often are viewed as part-time players, guys like Martinez don't make part-time money. He made $9 million last season and will make an estimated $6 million for 2003.
Despite the fact that it's been around longer than most players, the DH still is a controversial topic, and it's not just the should-there-or-shouldn't there-be arguments. In 1999, Texas DH Rafael Palmeiro hit .324, slammed 47 home runs, drove in 128 runs -- and was named the AL Gold Glove winner at first base. He had played only 28 games there.
There are those who continue to call for the abolishment of the rule, though after 30 years, it would seem almost unfathomable to see that now. And for all the proponents of the DH -- people who would rather see a hitter than a pitcher come to the plate -- there are still a multitude of old-schoolers who prefer baseball the way it originally was played.
"I like baseball as it was. I just think it's a better game," says Atlanta's Cox. "If I'm going to pay to see a game, this [in the NL] is just the better game."
That, like much about the DH, is up for debate. And probably will be for the next 30 years.
Chainsaw Muthuafucka
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