Bill O'Reilly - The Moron Strikes Back!

[steve]

So on Bill O'Reilly's radio show this afternoon, he began comparing "post war" Iraq to post war Japan - contrasting the two by saying that...upon occupation the Japanese were demoralized and beaten. He went on to say this was a result of losing a generation of young men and dropping two atomic bombs on the country - the peolpe had lost the will to fight.

He next suggested that we had not done this in Iraq (demoralized the people and totally beaten down their will to fight) and "this" is what we need to do now to these Shiite radicals in Iraq.

After that I used that magic new George Foreman invention (his second after the inclined plane) called the "on/off switch".

Never again...never again shall I listen to that conserva-nazi extremist republican piece of shit.

[Ally_Kat]

Every now and then when I think of Iraq, the thought of Germany after ww1 and going into ww2 comes to mind. I don't know why...

[Satan]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
Every now and then when I think of Iraq, the thought of Germany after ww1 and going into ww2 comes to mind. I don't know why...

Maybe because the same guys who enabled Hitler AND who enabled Hussein are the ones making a bigger mess out of IraqNam right now?

[ELVIS]

What do you suggest Steve.. that we talk to and try to understand the Shiite radicals ??

[steve]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What do you suggest Steve.. that we talk to and try to understand the Shiite radicals ??

I suggest that talking about nuking and firebombing cities - killing hundreds of thousands of innocents - as a panecea is fuckin' evil.

It's no different than Bin Laden - who reasons that all women and children and civilians are fair game - in his and Al Queda's efforts to demoralize us.

As a neccesity and as a choice as a lesser of two evils (which is what Hiroshima was) when you are under attack in your home country - as were were from the nation state of Japan in World War II.

We are not under attack in our home country from Shiites in Iraq.

To suggest that we need more troops and to better police Iraq and that the shutting of the Newspaper was not wise - that's logical.
To suggest we need to raid some towns and arrest those that fire on US soldiers...logical.

To say that US soldiers in Iraq are scared and pissed off right now and some messy bloody things wil happen in teh next few weeks...most unfortunately likely.

To suggest that the cure is to bomb all these brown people into oblivion so they are scared of us...that's fuckin' evil.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by steve
So on Bill O'Reilly's radio show this afternoon, he began comparing "post war" Iraq to post war Japan - contrasting the two by saying that...upon occupation the Japanese were demoralized and beaten. He went on to say this was a result of losing a generation of young men and dropping two atomic bombs on the country - the peolpe had lost the will to fight.

He next suggested that we had not done this in Iraq (demoralized the people and totally beaten down their will to fight) and "this" is what we need to do now to these Shiite radicals in Iraq.

After that I used that magic new George Foreman invention (his second after the inclined plane) called the "on/off switch".

Never again...never again shall I listen to that conserva-nazi extremist republican piece of shit.

I didn't watch O'Reilly's show last night since I was in class, but I doubt O'Reilly said it like that or advocated using nukes. You gotta remember that talk shows are intended to be provocative at times.

[SilvioDante]

Hey I am for whatever works.

I live in a military town and I have totally 180'ed on my feeliings about this. If we are gonna be over there, and we are, we have an obligation to make sure that our military have the tools to come home safely. Pure and simple. To hell with winning.

Hell, they are all just waiting for the day they can meet their God anyway, let them have it. If a few civilians die, oops, sorry. A civilian from where I am from was murdered just last week and his body was mutilated and drug thru the street.

BLOW'EM THE FUCK UP AND GET OUR GUYS HOME!!!!

[Dr. Love]

I watched the Factor and O'Reilly's point was that there was no way to reason with these people and that we had to break their spirit (the ones fighting).

I agree with him. Hearts and minds is not going to work. Those people only understand fear and death.

[steve]

You see...when you words like "those people" - to me, that is scary talk.
If you or O'Reily were to refer specifically to the Shiite al-Sadyr group, that would be one thing.

But I figure it like this. I love America - it's a great country in a lot of ways (not to say it does not have it's problems - it hass a lot) and it was built on a great set of principles...

However - a lot of America's strength is derived from SHEER LUCK -in that we had a whole continent of available land - land that enabled a large, wealthy, powerful middle class to develope.
It was also ONLY SHEER LUCK that I was born here - the richest/free-est country on the face of the earth.

No American human being is any better than any goat hearder or starving famine victim. So to talk of using the means which would bring total fear into whole populations - those means can only be accomplished with hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths.

If the US were to use enough means to put TOTAL FEAR into all the brown people as Bill O'Reily says, the only way that could be accomplished would be to drop a few nukes or firebomb a whole city or two into oblivion.

Given the current situation - this would be evil.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by steve

No American human being is any better than any goat hearder or starving famine victim. So to talk of using the means which would bring total fear into whole populations - those means can only be accomplished with hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths.

so what you're saying is that it's okay for them to do it but, even if stopping to their level can help alleviate this, we shouldn't do it

[SilvioDante]

Well, in the immortal words of Dennis Miller (on terrorism):

"If that means they win now that we have stooped to their level, fine, they win. But it will be nice to know that a few of their boys won't be at the trophy ceremony!!"

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
so what you're saying is that it's okay for them to do it but, even if stopping to their level can help alleviate this, we shouldn't do it

Define "them".

Stooping to the level of terrorism and bombing innocent people will make terrorists out of people that would have been otherwise peaceful. Creating the problem you wished to avoid in the first place.

Now, if we're talking about Iraq, our government struck them (the Iraqis) first. They see our government as the terrorists and I'm not sure that I can argue with them on that.

[Ally_Kat]

you mean to tell me that you don't believe there are groups working within Iraq to convince them to attack?

[Pink Spider]

Be more specific. Do you mean Al-Queda?

No. I don't believe Al-queda is responsible for much of anything that goes on in Iraq. There's very little proof that they are.

[Ally_Kat]

outside groups. I think there are more than just AL-Queda out there. Just random groups banded together to make life difficult and they could be from outside countries looking to get power for thier objective or Saddam loyalists still looking to regain thier power

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by steve
You see...when you words like "those people" - to me, that is scary talk.
If you or O'Reily were to refer specifically to the Shiite al-Sadyr group, that would be one thing.

But I figure it like this. I love America - it's a great country in a lot of ways (not to say it does not have it's problems - it hass a lot) and it was built on a great set of principles...

However - a lot of America's strength is derived from SHEER LUCK -in that we had a whole continent of available land - land that enabled a large, wealthy, powerful middle class to develope.
It was also ONLY SHEER LUCK that I was born here - the richest/free-est country on the face of the earth.

No American human being is any better than any goat hearder or starving famine victim. So to talk of using the means which would bring total fear into whole populations - those means can only be accomplished with hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths.

If the US were to use enough means to put TOTAL FEAR into all the brown people as Bill O'Reily says, the only way that could be accomplished would be to drop a few nukes or firebomb a whole city or two into oblivion.

Given the current situation - this would be evil.

I was referring to the armed groups trying to mount an insurrection.

[diamondD]

I think he was too busy looking for a way to be offended to understand what you meant.

[steve]

Originally posted by diamondD
I think he was too busy looking for a way to be offended to understand what you meant.

No, I wasn't looking to be offended.

In fact, I think as a strategist, Bill O'Reilly is correct. If we were to use the amount of force it would take to striek total fear into our enemies, then we would win. But to win by total fear would be to use an amount of force taht would make us freaking evil bastards no better than Hitler of Stalin or Saddam.

Bill O'Reilly said he thinks we need to drive "these people" into total fear. My point is that, if that is really his opinion, he (O'Reilly) doesn't realize what he has said.

To win by fear-mongering is the stuff of Stalin, Hitler, and Saddam. To really accomplish putting TOTAL FEAR into your enemy is more than arresting Al-Sdyr (or however it is spelled...) militiamen.

The only road to winning through fear is the stuff of geniocide and mass-murder.

I argue that O'Reilly is a moron - he doesn't raelize the level of force it would take to place this "fear" he uses as the centerpeice of his argument.

look at Israel. The Israelis have been going tit for tat and killing off militiamen left and right for the past 4 years and it has not struck "fear" into Hamas and or suicide bombers at all - it has made them more ambitious.

So what would it take for Israel to truley strike fear into the Arab community. Surely, if they dropped an atomic weapon on Gaza, the level of annihilation would cross a threashold that would psychologically make them submit - if history is any guide (Hiroshima, Dresden, Stalin's purges, The Holocaust) this would be the case.

But at what price?
And are the circumstances the same?

[diamondD]

First off, these people (yes, I said it) are killing Americans. That's the bottom line. We can roll over and look soft in order to not look "too evil" to these people that are burning our civilians or we can take the fight to them.

I'm not saying nuke them, yet. It hasn't gotten near that far. We can take them out with air and ground strikes no problem.

[BrownSound1]

First of all. to compare Iraq to Vietnam is ridiculous. The amount of soldiers that we have lost in this war is nothing compared to the rate we were loosing them in Vietnam. I really cannot believe the things I hear some of you folks say. Did any of you really think bringing down Iraq's government was going to be a cakewalk? I sure as hell didn't, and I cannot think of a single time that there was a change like this in any nation's history that didn't have bloodshed. Also, there are going to be people who resist change, be it for good or bad whenever you have a situation like this.

Now my opinion of the Middle East is this, those fuckers have been fighting since the beginning of time, and there will always be instability in that region. However, if we can minimize the instability some, then we will ALL be a little safer. This war has had some positive effects, i.e. Libya fessing up about their WMD's. I think that is great...even though I still don't trust those bastards any farther than I can throw them.

[John Ashcroft]

I say "Nuke 'em all!"

There, it's said. You've got your devil, now bring it on.

[steve]

The problem is...
you drop one nuke in the middle east and the feces hits that spinning thing.
Pakistan erupts into civil war and the 30 or so nukes they have are stolen by various terrorist organizations...nukes never to be seen again until, over the next 15 years, bombs go off in cities accross north america.

worst case scenario, yeah - but entirely possible.

muslim extremists think death is winning.
they think death in battle is the ultimate signal of devotion to God.
they think "death" is merely a wormhole to paradise.
they lose NOTHING by dying.

a lot of folks in the secular world do lose something, namely, their linear, terminal existance. most Europeans don't neccessarily believe in an afterlife and more and more americans don't neccessarily.

[ELVIS]

Bullshit!

More and more americans DO neccessarily have faith in God, and that happens to include an afterlife.

The problem is people like YOU who create bullshit in your feeble little minds just like your last post shows...

Muslim extremists lose nothing by dying ??

GOOD!

When they are ALL dead they won't have shit to lose and the world will be a safer place...

[steve]

Alright Daffy...calm down and get a mop - your spit is all over the place.

If you want a religious war, fine.

Perhaps people like me will get together with our scientists and use our "religion" (science) to build a new world on the moon. And then we can watch the Christian/Muslim holy war from there.
And after the dust and nuclear winter settles, we, the true meek, shall inherit the earth.

[John Ashcroft]

Actually, the moon might make a good "Nucular" launch pad...

Good idea steve. We could institute "Star Wars take 2".

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[steve]

All said, I don't hate religion inheriently.

Whatever one needs to get through the day, be it Christianity, Islam, David Lee Roth...whatever, it's all good.

However...afterlife-driven religion presents a problem in that it makes life merely a pretext to entering a wormhole to immortality.

And when the religion becomes a vehicle to harm others that disagree with you - as Christianity has become time and time again and as many sects of Islam are now...well, dee shit be scary.

That is not to say that making oneself into a God (as Hitler and Stalin did) is any better, of course.

[ELVIS]

I hear ya...

Good post.

[lucky wilbury]

back to the main point the japanese were demoralized because of the a bombs being dropped and the fact they were losing. thats point one and the second more important point is the japanese fell into line because their emperar (sic) told them too. after they surrendered he basically told them to listen to them americans and not stir touble. he was their "supreme being" in thier country and held that sway. you didn't have that in germany or iraq which is why their were attacks after the end of the wars by both the remnents of the iraqi and german regimes.

[ELVIS]

I don't know about that...

[lucky wilbury]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I don't know about that...

this is what Hirohito told his people to do

http://www.taiwandocuments.org/receipt.htm

Surrender Rescript of Emperor Hirohito

2 September 1945

On the order of General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, Emperor Hirohito issued the following Proclamation prior to the signing of the Instrument of Surrender.

PROCLAMATION


Accepting the terms set forth in the Declaration issued by the Heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China on July 26th, 1945 at Potsdam and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, We have commanded the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign on Our behalf the Instrument of Surrender presented by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and to issue General Orders to the Military and Naval Forces in accordance with the direction of the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers.


We command all Our people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms and faithfully to carry out all the provisions of Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder.


Article by article, here is what Japan agreed to do under the terms of the surrender:

First, adopt all provisions of the Potsdam Declaration.

Second, surrender unconditionally all armed forces.

Third, cease hostilities forthwith and preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft and military and civil property.

Fourth, command Imperial General Headquarters to issue orders to all field commanders everywhere to surrender their forces unconditionally.

Fifth, see that all civil, military, and naval officials obey and enforce all orders of the Supreme Allied Commander.

Sixth, responsible Japanese controlled military and civil authorities will hold intact and in good condition, pending further instructions from the Supreme Commander for Allied Powers, the following:

A - All arms, ammunitions, military equipment, stores, and supplies and other implements of war of all kinds and all other war material (except as specifically prescribed in Condition 4 of this order).

B - All land, water, and air transportation and communication facilities and equipment.

C - All military installations and establishments, including airfields, seaplane bases, anti-aircraft defences, ports and naval bases, storage depots, permanent and temporary land and coast fortifications, fortresses and other fortified areas, together with plans and drawings of all such fortifications, installations and establishments.

D - All factories, shops, research institutions, laboratories, testing stations, technical data, patterns, plans, drawings, and inventions designed or intended to produce or to facilitate production or use of all implements of war and other material and property used by or intended for use by any military or part military organization in connection with its operations.

Seventh, Japanese Imperial General Headquarters shall furnish to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (within time limit of receipt of this order) a complete list of all items specified in Paragraph B and D of Sixth above indicating numbers, types and locations of each.

Eighth, manufacture and distribution of all arms, ammunition and implements of war will cease forthwith.

Ninth, with respect to United Nations prisoners of war and civilian internees in the hands of the Japanese or Japanese controlled authorities:

A - The safety and well being of all United Nations prisoners of war and civilian internees will be scrupulously preserved to include administrative and supply service essential to provide adequate food, shelter, clothing, and medical care until such responsibility is undertaken by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers.

B - Each camp or other place of detention of United Nations prisoners of war and civilian internees, together with its equipment, records, arms, and ammunition will be delivered immediately to the command of the senior officer designated as the representative of prisoners of war and civilian internees.

C – As directed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, prisoners of war and civilian internees will be transported to places of safety where they can be accepted by Allied authorities.

D - Japanese Imperial General Headquarters will furnish to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (within time limit of the receipt of this order) complete lists of all United Nations prisoners of war and civilian internees, indicating their location.

Tenth, all Japanese and Japanese-controlled military and civil authorities shall aid and assist the occupation of Japanese-controlled areas by forces of the Allied Powers.

Eleventh, Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and appropriate Japanese officials shall be prepared, on instructions from Allied occupation commanders, to collect and deliver all arms in the possession of the Japanese civilian population.

Twelfth, this and all subsequent instructions issued by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Forces or other Allied military authorities will be scrupulously and promptly obeyed by Japanese and Japanese-controlled military and civil officials and private persons.

Any delay or failure to comply with the provisions of this or subsequent orders and any action which the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers determines to be detrimental to the Allied Powers will incur drastic and summary punishment at the hands of the Allied military authorities and the Japanese Government.


This second day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of SHOWA.



| Seal of the Empire |

Signed: H I R O H I T O

Countersigned: Naruhiko O
Prime Minister

Mamoru Shigemitsu
Minister of Foreign Affairs

Iwao Yamazaki
Minister of Home Affairs

Juichi Tsushima
Minister of Finance

Sadamu Shimomura
Minister of War

Mitsumasa Yonai
Minister of Navy

Chuzo Iwata
Minister of Justice

Tamon Maeda
Minister of Education

Kenzo Matsumura
Minister of Welfare

Kotaro Sengoku
Minister of Agriculture and Forestry

Chikuhei Nakajima
Minister of Commerce and Industry

Naoto Kobiyama
Minister of Transportation

Fumimaro Konoe
Minister without Portfolio

Taketora Ogata
Minister without Portfolio

Binshiro Obata
Minister without Portfolio