Elly's First Flame

[Ellyllions]

I know we don't like talking about religion. And in another thread about the war between Israel and Hezbollah spiraled into religion but as it was explained to me religion is the driving force behind what's going on.

Here's how I was taught...(don't bitch slap me if I'm wrong please and try not to argue symantecs...you get the gist of what I'm saying here even if I'm unable to tell the story perfectly)

Abraham had a wife who went into her 90's without bearing Children. God repeatedly told Abraham that she would and renamed her. Abraham gets impatient and gets one of her handmaid's pregnant. The handmaid has a son. Shortly thereafter his wife bears him a son. According to the traditions of that time, the first born son inherits all of his father's property and such. Abraham denied the handmaid's child as his first born and gave everything to his wife's son.

The handmaid's son was bitter.

According to what I was taught...the handmaid's sons lineage was Muhammed. And down Abraham's lineage with his wife was...........Jesus.

The fight between the Arabs and Jews stems from this division. After 2000 years, Muhammed's followers believe that all of the Middle East was the birth-right property of the handmaid's child. Supposedly the two opposing religions stemmed from this ancient tradition and confusion over who was Abraham's first born son and which was entitled to all of Abraham's inheritance.

Now, the Muslims and the Christians went to war. There was a great Jewish temple in Israel (forgive me for not knowing specifics). Legend has it that it was the place where the Ark of the Covenant was hidden. Well, during another earlier battle, the Muslims captured the temple and built a Mosque on top of the Jewish temple. Then Israel prevailed and took it back. Now supposedly the Muslims claim that the Jews "took" a Islamic Mosque.

See how this is going....based on this explanation it is a battle of religion, and it has been going on for centuries. So to avoid talking about religion when talking about this battle is missing part of the reason it's even happening.

Of course, the modern world can't comprehend what it's all over because the modern world (especially the US) doesn't see how or why people should die over this kind of battle. The Baptists and the Catholics aren't bombing each other over here, so it doesn't make much sense to us. But for them, the hatred and the reasons for the war is very real. The Muslims fully believe that the land that the Jews occupy is part of a rightful inheritance to their prophet by "father Abraham".

[LoungeMachine]

Watch the West Wing Episode entitled "Issac and Ishmael"

There's a great scene dealing with this.



It was actually using it as a parable to 9/11

Good episode opening the 3rd season.

[Ellyllions]

Ok, I'll check it out.

Ya know, when you look at it from the standpoint of birthright inheritance and family arguments...it kind of depletes the importance of the "spritiual" implications that both parties spout doesn't it.

[LoungeMachine]

Quite.

[FORD]

Elly, your description of the conflict, or at least the religious side of it, is pretty much accurate. God's promise to Abraham was to make him a "father of many nations" and it was in that context that God gave this huge piece of land to Abe and his children. And since neither Ishmael or Isaac had been born yet at that point, then it's assuming facts not in evidence to say that God only meant ONE of Abe's kids.

Then there's the little fact that the handmaiden's name was Hagar. Is it possible that Sammy is descended from the Ishmael family line? I think it's safe to assume that Isaac is David Lee Roth's ancestor

[Ellyllions]

Well the tradition was that the first born son was to receive all inheritance. The conflict is over whether or not the "illegtimate" son born to the handmaid was the rightful first born or not.

This goes even further doesn't it?
Doesn't the FreeMason's believe that the "sons" of the US were direct descendants to Issac? Thereby being a "sister" to the Jews?

That thickens the plot quite a bit doesn't it?

[thome]

Why don't you Bible Quoteing Gentlemen do me a favor..

When you need a book on a subject you want to learn ,you visit the library..Yes/No ?

When you need your 99 Porche worked on you seek out a qualified
mechanic, Yes ? No ?

Why dont you find a nice Church of some denomination you feel qualified about and walk in, in the Middle of the Day, any day.

Get down on your knees in the empty sanctuary or tabernacle or
just sit on one of the benches take a deep breath exhale and
ask the concept of your choice if i needed answers who should i ask.

Odds are in the favor of the priest or minister of the veryplace you are sitting.

Then get up see if he or she is around and ask if you may speak about a few questions that have been keeping you up at night.

You see they study the bible and every other incarnation of the
belief systems of the whole world.It's thier job, usually they have
a lifetime of study involved.

You need a mechanic for you soul this is where you must go for the tune-up.

Oh, and by the way, i have done ,same, a couple of time .

[Ellyllions]

Thome....I was raised in church. I firmly believe that my grandfather went straight to heaven when he died not because he was an elder in our church for most of his life, but because he kept an open mind about how that Holy Bible played out in human nature and history.

He taught me everything I came to know about Spirituality and how it relates to the soul. He also taught me that some of the knowlege you get from being Spiritual isn't given to you by a voicebox (minister, priest, whatever name they choose to be called by)...but more from your own heart when studying the Verses.

So you shouldn't be telling everyone that they need another human being to tell them what is right and wrong. The Bible plainly says that it's so easy that even a child can comprehend. And that's all we need to know. Over the centuries all messages become tainted with greed, power, and figurehead influences. I believe our concept of all Holy writings have had the same done to them. The truth is in one's heart, and each shall be judged by those truths as opposed to being led one way or another by a "leader".

Furthermore, just because someone else may not be Spiritual doesn't give any of us the right to decide if they're wrong or not. And to speak that way will lead them in the opposite direction.

You get more flies with honey goes a long way in a lot of places.

[thome]

Some are not posesed of a -old soul- as you are and need some guidance to stop thier madness and push them just a little further
out of the endless loop of unanswerd question they see to
find, no help with.
\
Sometimes, you alone are not enough -the pennatant man sees god-
the old saying means to me you need to -ask- for some help.

that is very hard for some, the humiliation of asking and then afterwards
the realization is there is no humiliation in it, at times... really -asking-
for some words of guidance.
From of all people a man of the cloth.not your bud or the dude on
the barstool.. left. Just bite your proud bottom lip and walk in the door.

[Ellyllions]

Ok...I'm not getting into this with you. This is not the intention of the thread and if I keep going on, so will you. You obviously didn't even comprehend my last post.


Back to the subject at hand, please?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Well the tradition was that the first born son was to receive all inheritance. The conflict is over whether or not the "illegtimate" son born to the handmaid was the rightful first born or not.

This goes even further doesn't it?
Doesn't the FreeMason's believe that the "sons" of the US were direct descendants to Issac? Thereby being a "sister" to the Jews?

That thickens the plot quite a bit doesn't it?

I don't keep up with the Masonic conspiracies very much. One of my grandfathers was a Mason, and it certainly hasn't opened any "secret doors" for me. I think I got ripped off. I want my secret organization benefits package, damn it!

Unfortunately, I never talked to him about it that much, so I don't know much about the Masonic doctrine.

I do know that a lot of former Presidents have been Masons, but none of them from the group that has dominated the White House for 30 of the last 50 years. (i.e. Bush, his daddy, Reagan, Nixon, etc.)

[thome]

I think my post is spot on on your topic You seem to be asking question of the wrong people.

---------
Furthermore, just because someone else may not be Spiritual doesn't give any of us the right to decide if they're wrong or not. And to speak that way will lead them in the opposite direction.
-----------
Saying someone is not spiritual is like saying i only drive Chevrolets
but if i was stranded i would not accept a ride from a guy in a Toyota.

In even the conflicts of missundrstood dogma there is spirituality.

Arguing over the concepts of Non - believers or retributions of two
thousand year old grievances must come from a base of the belief system.

You can take it back to Cain and Able if you want to believe there
was a Mohammed and Abraham.

Sorry if you think i changed the Direction of you thread My concepts of your post are written here and above if you would preffer i don't post in your thread say so and i will back out.

[Little Texan]

Originally posted by FORD
I do know that a lot of former Presidents have been Masons, but none of them from the group that has dominated the White House for 30 of the last 50 years. (i.e. Bush, his daddy, Reagan, Nixon, etc.)

You're wrong there, Ford. I believe I saw somewhere on the web a while back when I was doing some research on the masons that Gerald Ford was a Freemason.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Little Texan
You're wrong there, Ford. I believe I saw somewhere on the web a while back when I was doing some research on the masons that Gerald Ford was a Freemason.

OK, but it's not like he was in office long enough to enact any "secret Masonic conspiracy". And of course, he was never elected President (or Vice President) either. I believe his only elected position was congressman, and I don't know what the numbers are on Masons who have served in Congress.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions TO THOME
Ok...I'm not getting into this with you. This is not the intention of the thread and if I keep going on, so will you. You obviously didn't even comprehend my last post.


Back to the subject at hand, please?

Elly just discovered the thome factor.

cheap beer + glue + propane fumes = incoherent posts

[Nickdfresh]

Well, the beer, glue, and propane help anyways...

[Ellyllions]

So the President of Iran believes that chaos between the Muslim and the Jews will bring about the return of the Muslim messiah?

Would that be the rise of the Anti-Christ?

See, my intentions for this thread isn't to try to bring people to religion...it's an attempt to figure out what is going on by thinking the same way the Muslim extremeists are thinking in being at war with Israel.

To catch a thief you need to think like one right?

[Warham]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Thome....I was raised in church. I firmly believe that my grandfather went straight to heaven when he died not because he was an elder in our church for most of his life, but because he kept an open mind about how that Holy Bible played out in human nature and history.

He taught me everything I came to know about Spirituality and how it relates to the soul. He also taught me that some of the knowlege you get from being Spiritual isn't given to you by a voicebox (minister, priest, whatever name they choose to be called by)...but more from your own heart when studying the Verses.

So you shouldn't be telling everyone that they need another human being to tell them what is right and wrong. The Bible plainly says that it's so easy that even a child can comprehend. And that's all we need to know. Over the centuries all messages become tainted with greed, power, and figurehead influences. I believe our concept of all Holy writings have had the same done to them. The truth is in one's heart, and each shall be judged by those truths as opposed to being led one way or another by a "leader".

Furthermore, just because someone else may not be Spiritual doesn't give any of us the right to decide if they're wrong or not. And to speak that way will lead them in the opposite direction.

You get more flies with honey goes a long way in a lot of places.

Amen, sister!

[Nickdfresh]

Actually, it all began in 1948...

[Ellyllions]

Care to elaborate?

I'm a brunette so I love to read!

[diamondD]

I'm guessing he's referencing the 1948 creation of the state of Israel and the other surrounding countries' failure to recognize their existance.


If it really all goes back to this first born crap, this stuff is beyond stupid.

[FORD]

What they should have done in 1948 is establish TWO states, not just one.

[Ellyllions]

According to what I was taught, it does go back to the first born stuff. According to my grandfather, it was the beginning of the division of the Arabs and the Jews. And the reason that to this day they refuse to live in harmony.

The Muslim Arabs believe that the Holy Land (all of it) belonged to Muhammed and that it's a sin for anyone who is not Muslim to walk on it. Including the soldiers who ran Saddam's forces out of Kuwait....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


And the reason that to this day they refuse to live in harmony.

Ahh, living in harmony.

Much like the Europeans, and the Native Americans they slaughtered......

Much like the Australians and the Aboriginals

The British and the Indians.

Whites, and the ancestors of the slaves their forefathers owned.


My point being, just where in the world is this "living in harmony" taking place between peoples?

I'd like to book a trip and see it for myself.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
According to what I was taught, it does go back to the first born stuff. According to my grandfather, it was the beginning of the division of the Arabs and the Jews. And the reason that to this day they refuse to live in harmony.

The Muslim Arabs believe that the Holy Land (all of it) belonged to Muhammed and that it's a sin for anyone who is not Muslim to walk on it. Including the soldiers who ran Saddam's forces out of Kuwait....

Now we're getting into Osama's list of "grievances". What supposedly flipped him from America loving CIA agent to America hating terrorist was the presence of "infidel" troops on the holy land, especially near Mecca & Medina, the holiest locations in all of Islam.

Jerusalem is the third holiest, which is why the Muslims have as much of a claim to that city as the Jews do. Unfortunately, it's not easy to draw a line between two states when both claim the same city.

The obvious solution is to take Jerusalem completely off the table. Make that city its own state, much like the Vatican is. Jews, Muslims, and Christians are all welcome, but none of the three controls the city.

Once that question is settled (even though both parties will bitch about it) drawing the borders of a Palestinian state will probably be relatively easy.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Actually, it all began in 1948...

In Roswell.


Alians crashed, but before they died they predicted this would happen

[FORD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


My point being, just where in the world is this "living in harmony" taking place between peoples?

I'd like to book a trip and see it for myself.

<div align="center"><embed src="../midi/small_world.mid" Autostart=TRUE Width=144 Height=56 Loop=true TYPE="audio/midi"></embed>
</div><br>

It's a world of laughter
A world of tears
It's a world of hopes
And a world of fears
There's so much that we share
That it's time we're aware
It's a small world after all

There is just one moon
And one golden sun
And a smile means
Friendship to ev'ryone
Though the mountains divide
And the oceans are wide
It's a small world after all

It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small, small world

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Ahh, living in harmony.

Much like the Europeans, and the Native Americans they slaughtered......

Much like the Australians and the Aboriginals

The British and the Indians.

Whites, and the ancestors of the slaves their forefathers owned.


My point being, just where in the world is this "living in harmony" taking place between peoples?

I'd like to book a trip and see it for myself.

Point well made and taken, but still you're settling on symantics.
At least you and I could go outside and have a relatively shitty day by our own accord, without getting shot because we're not wearing a burka.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...there is no one people on this planet that hasn't suffered from discrimination. And most definitely, discrimination has a lot to do with why the Arabs and Jews can't seem to co-exist.

@FORD, yes Bin Laden is the ultimate in extremeist Muslim beliefs and that honestly makes me wonder if he isn't the Anti-Christ. Here in the US there are religions that follow the Old Testament to the letter believeing that the New Testament is yet to be fulfilled properly. Bin Laden follows and teaches the Quaran in it's most literal sense of every word...furthering the push for the prophecies to be fulfilled. He is honestly recruiting on the basis of fearing Muslims into believing that if they don't do exactly as it's written they'll be banished to torment.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
Now we're getting into Osama's list of "grievances". What supposedly flipped him from America loving CIA agent to America hating terrorist was the presence of "infidel" troops on the holy land, especially near Mecca & Medina, the holiest locations in all of Islam.

But he needed help. He needed the Infidels to cooperate.

He needed some Cowboy to play into his hands.......




Who could he get?

Hmmmmmmmm

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by diamondD
I'm guessing he's referencing the 1948 creation of the state of Israel and the other surrounding countries' failure to recognize their existance.


If it really all goes back to this first born crap, this stuff is beyond stupid.

Or the land-grab achieved through: ethnic cleanings, psychological-warfare rapes, assassinations, massacres, terrorist bombings, and other assorted anti-social behaviors that the Zionists used to create Israel.

And the Arabs weren't innocent by any means, but the heroic Zionists on white horses is a bullshit, self-serving myth.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions




Bin Laden follows and teaches the Quaran in it's most literal sense of every word...furthering the push for the prophecies to be fulfilled. He is honestly recruiting on the basis of fearing Muslims into believing that if they don't do exactly as it's written they'll be banished to torment.

NOW LETS READ THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH WITH A FEW CHANGES, SHALL WE?


BUSH follows and teaches the BIBLE in it's most literal sense of every word...furthering the push for the prophecies to be fulfilled. He is honestly recruiting on the basis of fearing CHRITIANS into believing that if they don't do exactly as it's written they'll be banished to torment.


Same crusade, different names......

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Point well made and taken, but still you're settling on symantics.

Really?

How so:confused:



This whole mindset that if we just wiped out the other guys, or got them to think, act, and believe like us, the world would be just fine is a joke.


Just like BushCO spreading "democracy and freedom" in the Middle East at the end of a rifle.



There is no difference between any "war on terror" or "war on the infidels"

It's charismatic leaders furthering their own agenda by spilling the blood of others.


In my mind, what Bush, Perle, Wolfowitz, Cheney, et al did was no worse than any other "terrorist" act in the last 20 years.

Except they slaughtered TENS of thousands of innocent civilians.

[Ellyllions]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all.

I don't see how Iraq had been left the way it was for so long in the first place. Celebs stomping around holding whole concerts for Africa when the people of Iraq were living in just as much squalor. Do we pick and choose who we help? If so, how do we make that distinction?

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers is contaminated because 40 years of raw sewage being dumped into it. People had to bathe, drink, and cook with that water under Saddam while he had food testers, all the medicines he needed, and bathed in gold plated bathtubs.

I agree that it didn't turn out like it should've, but I don't agree that it shouldn't have taken place. Just because the two cultures can't understand each other doesn't make it wrong. And as far as civilian casualties....that's a sad fact of war. Saddam had 1 1/2 years to keep it from happening. But he didn't comply with the UN resolutions because HE didn't care about casualties.


But time and distance builds complacency...

[Nickdfresh]

Well, U.S. airstrikes did target sewage treatment plants during the Gulf War I... Some would say that that is a form of biological warfare...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


Do we pick and choose who we help? If so, how do we make that distinction?

Yes, dear. We do.

Always have.

How did we make the distinction this time?

Well, just look at the 14 permanent military bases and the world's largest embassey being built.


Sorry, but I don't recall saving the Iraqis from "squalor" as ever being a reason cited for the invasion and occupation.

And 3 years later, the water, sewer, power.....fuck the whole damn infrastructure is worse than before. But now you can get blown up much quicker and easier.

And flying in private contractors while Iraqis go unemployed and hungry doesn't exactly boost your theory either.

If you think this WAR is about any "humanitarian" motive then you're right, we will never agree.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Well, U.S. airstrikes did target sewage treatment plants during the Gulf War I... Some would say that that is a form of biological warfare...

Yeah, and if this war was such a humanitarian endeavour as Elly would like to believe, what did we do in Gulf I, the prequel to help the Iraqi people other than get them slaughtered by abandoning them after telling them if they rose up we'd be there.

C'mon Ell.

[Ellyllions]

I just see the humanitarian side of it. From the people that I know over there. They would literally bend over backwards for the Iraqi's after being there since Saddam was captured.

My problem with the anti-Iraq war stance is that it's got tunnel vision. People get so into the possible and "what-if's" that they fail to see anything but Bush and Rumsfeld and the oil fields. When there honestly was so much more to it from the beginning.

Failed intelligence isn't one person's fault....but the whole thing could've been avoided if Saddam had given what he was asked for in the 1 1/2 years before the shooting started. But it's so typical of our society not to place any blame on the offended. When right now, Saddam's defense team is in danger of being killed by their own people. That should say something to the American public.

Bottom line is that it's done and we're there. We honestly should be doing MUCH more in word and deed in getting it overwith and out. Instead of constantly rehashing a 5 year old argument.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions



The Tigris and Euphrates rivers is contaminated because 40 years of raw sewage being dumped into it. People had to bathe, drink, and cook with that water under Saddam while he had food testers, all the medicines he needed, and bathed in gold plated bathtubs.

Is that why we invaded?

really?

It wasn't mushroom cloud like WMDs and 9/11?


Well, we should be invading Darfur any day now, right?

And let's declare war on New Orleans while we're at it. They're still living in squalor.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I just see the humanitarian side of it.

That's nice that you do, sincerely......

But do you really believe for ONE FUCKING MOMENT that BushCO gave a rat's ass about any humanitarian motive?

Just answer that honestly, please.

[Ellyllions]

Too bad Brad Pitt and Bono haven't done something to benefit the pre-war Iraq.

Badgering me isn't going to make me believe differently Lounge. It's really not necessary or helpful.