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Thread: Israel, not Hizbullah, is putting civilians in danger on both sides of the border

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    Israel, not Hizbullah, is putting civilians in danger on both sides of the border

    Israel, not Hizbullah, is putting civilians in danger on both sides of the border

    By Jonathan Cook in Nazareth

    08/03/06 "Information Clearing House" -- --

    Here are some interesting points raised this week by a leading commentator and published in a respected daily newspaper: “The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert embeds his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, ensuring that any Israeli target is also a civilian target. This is the practice the UN's Jan Egeland had in mind when he lambasted Israel’s ‘cowardly blending ... among women and children’. It may be cowardly, but in the new warfare it also makes macabre sense. For this is a propaganda war as much as a shooting one, and in such a conflict to lose civilians on your own side represents a kind of victory.”

    You probably did not read far before realising that I have switched “Israel” for “Hizbullah” and “Ehud Olmert” for “Hassan Nasrallah”. The paragraph was taken from an opinion piece by Jonathan Freedland published in Britain’s Guardian newspaper on 2 August. My attempt at deception was probably futile because no one seems to seriously believe that criticisms of the kind expressed above can be levelled against Israel.

    Freedland, like most commentators in our media, assumes that Hizbullah is using the Lebanese population as “human shields”, hiding its fighters, arsenals and rocket launchers inside civilian areas. “Cowardly” behaviour rather than the nature of Israel’s air strikes, in his view, explains the spiralling death toll among Lebanese civilians. This perception of Hizbullah’s tactics grows more common by the day, even though it flies in the face of the available evidence and the research of independent observers in Lebanon such as Human Rights Watch.

    Explaining the findings of its latest report, HRW’s executive director, Kenneth Roth, blames Israel for targeting civilians indiscriminately in Lebanon. “The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military’s disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians. Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah [sic] fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel’s indiscriminate warfare.”

    HRW has analysed the casualty figures from two dozen Israeli air strikes and found that more than 40 per cent of the dead are children: 63 out of 153 fatalities. Conservatively, HRW puts the civilian death toll so far at over 500. Lebanese hospital records suggest the figure is now well over 750, with potentially many more bodies yet to be excavated from the rubble of buildings obliterated by Israeli attacks.

    Giving the lie to the “human shields” theory, HRW says its researchers “found numerous cases in which the IDF [Israeli army] launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.”

    In fact, of the 24 incidents they document, HRW researchers could find no evidence that Hizbullah was operating in or near the areas that were attacked by the Israeli air force. Roth states: “The image that Israel has promoted of such [human] shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong. In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around.”

    The impression that Hizbullah is using civilians as human shields has been reinforced, according to HRW, by official Israeli statements that have “blurred the distinction between civilians and combatants, arguing that only people associated with Hezbollah remain in southern Lebanon, so all are legitimate targets of attack.”

    Freedland makes a similar point. Echoing comments by the UN’s Jan Egeland, he says Hizbullah fighters are “cowardly blending” with Lebanon’s civilian population. It is difficult to know what to make of this observation. If Freedland means that Hizbullah fighters come from Lebanese towns and villages and have families living there whom they visit and live among, he is right. But exactly the same can be said of Israel and its soldiers, who return from the battlefront (in this case inside Lebanon, as they are now an invading army) to live with parents or spouses in Israeli communities. Armed and uniformed soldiers can be seen all over Israel, sitting in trains, queuing in banks, waiting with civilians at bus stops. Does that mean they are “cowardly blending’ with Israel’s civilian population?

    Egeland and Freedland’s criticism seems to amount to little more than blaming Hizbullah fighters for not standing in open fields waiting to be picked off by Israeli tanks and war planes. That, presumably, would be brave. But in reality no army fights in this way, and Hizbullah can hardly be criticised for using the only strategic defences it has: its underground bunkers and the crumbling fortifications of Lebanese villages ruined by Israeli pounding. An army defending itself from invasion has to make the most of whatever protection it can find -- as long as it does not intentionally put civilians at risk. But HRW’s research shows convincingly that Hizbullah is not doing this.

    So if Israeli officials have been deceiving us about what has been occurring inside Lebanon, have they also been misleading us about Hizbullah’s rocket attacks on Israel? Should we take at face value government and army statements that Hizbullah’s strikes into Israel are targeting civilians indiscriminately, or do they need more serious investigation?

    Although we should not romanticise Hizbullah, equally we should not be quick to demonise it either -- unless there is convincing evidence suggesting it has been firing on civilian targets. The problem is that Israel has been abusing very successfully its military censorship rules governing both its domestic media and the reporting of visiting foreign journalists to prevent meaningful discussion of what Hizbullah has been trying to hit inside Israel.

    I live in northern Israel in the Arab city of Nazareth. A week into the war we were hit by Hizbullah rockets that killed two young brothers. The attack, it was widely claimed, was proof either that Hizbullah was indiscriminately targeting civilians (so indiscriminately, the argument went, that it was hitting fellow Arabs) or that the Shiite militia was so committed to a fanatical war against the Judeo-Christian world that it was happy to kill Nazareth’s Christian Arabs too. The latter claim could be easily dismissed: it depended both on a “clash of civilisations” philosophy not shared by Hizbullah and on the mistaken assumption that Nazareth is a Christian city, when in fact, as is well-known to Hizbullah, Nazareth has a convincing Muslim majority.

    But to anyone living in Nazareth, it was clear the rocket attack on the city was not indiscriminate either. It was a mistake -- something Nasrallah quickly confirmed in one of his televised speeches. The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large army camp. Hizbullah knows the locations of these military targets because this year, as was widely reported in the Israeli media at the time, it managed to fly an unmanned drone over the Galilee photographing the area in detail -- employing the same spying techniques used for many years by Israel against Lebanon.

    One of Hizbullah’s first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities -- after Israel went on a bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon -- was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel’s press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control centre built into the Galilee’s hills.

    There are hundreds of similar military installations next to or inside Israel’s northern communities. Some distance from Nazareth, for example, Israel has built a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town -- so close to it, in fact, that the factory’s perimeter fence is only a few metres from the main building of the local junior school. There have been reports of rockets landing close to that Arab community.

    How these kind of attacks are being unfairly presented in the Israeli and foreign media was highlighted recently when it was widely reported that a Hizbullah rocket had landed “near a hospital” in a named Israeli city, not the first time that such a claim has been made over the past few weeks. I cannot name the city, again because of Israel’s press censorship laws and because I also want to point out that very “near” that hospital is an army camp. The media suggested that Hizbullah was trying to hit the hospital, but it is also more than possible it was trying to strike -- and may have struck -- the army camp.

    Israel’s military censorship laws are therefore allowing officials to represent, unchallenged, any attack by Hizbullah as an indiscriminate strike against civilian targets.

    Audiences ought to be alerted to this danger by their media. Any reports touching on “security matters” are supposed to be submitted to the country’s military censor, but few media are pointing this out. Most justify this deception to themselves on the grounds that in practice they never run their reports by the censor as it would delay publication.

    Instead, they avoid problems with the military censor either by self-censoring their reporting of security issues or by relying on what has already been published in the Israeli media on the assumption that in these ways they are unlikely to contravene the rules.

    An email memo, written by a senior BBC editor and leaked more than a week ago, discusses the growing restrictions being placed on the organisation’s reporters in Israel. It hints at some of the problems noted above, observing that “the more general we are, the free-er hand we have; more specific and it becomes increasingly tricky.” The editor says the channel will notify viewers of these restrictions in “the narrative of the story”. “The teams on the ground will make clear what they can and cannot say -- and if necessary make clear that we’re operating under reporting restrictions.” In practice, however, BBC correspondents, like most of their media colleagues, rarely alert us to the fact they are operating under censorship, and self-censorship, or that they cannot give us the full picture of what is happening.

    Because of this, commentators like Freedland are drawing conclusions that cannot be sustained by the available evidence. He notes in his article that “this is a propaganda war as much as a shooting one”. He is right, but does not seem to know who is really winning the propaganda offensive.

    Link

    Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book, “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State” is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

    jcook??? Nah, it couldn't be.....
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    Um, how many times has Hezbollah warned poeple in the place they are about to attack to get out?
    Thank You, and yes, i did read the entire article before posting in case you were wondering.

    Hezbollah has broken every law of war, brother, you can't gloss over that fact. Yet, everyone else is basically trying to minimize innocent people from being hit and that means nothing.

    The ocean sure gives people a false sense of reality in this country, that's a fact.
    But how much of this shit would you support if Lebanon was our neighbor?
    I bet you think we wouldn't be dealing with the same thing, and that we'd just sit here with our thumbs up our butt.

    WRONG!

    P.S. There is no such thing as a "respected" newspaper anymore...which is why I pay little attention to the media and have learned to read between the lines.
    There is very little difference between a blogger and an actual journalist.
    Last edited by Cathedral; 08-04-2006 at 01:41 PM.
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    Originally posted by Cathedral
    Um, how many times has Hezbollah warned poeple in the place they are about to attack to get out?
    As I've said many times, warning fliers don't mean shit when you have already bombed ever highway, railroad track, and airport leading out of town.

    Perhaps they should have dropped some fliers before they bombed the shit out of the infrastructure? Or better still, NOT FUCKING BOMBED CIVILIANS AT ALL??

    Thank You, and yes, i did read the entire article before posting in case you were wondering.

    Hezbollah has broken every law of war, brother, you can't gloss over that fact. Yet, everyone else is basically trying to minimize innocent people from being hit and that means nothing.
    Clearly, Israel doesn't give a flying rat's ass how many innocent people they kill. That's been proven repeatedly. Not that Hezbollah are any saints either, but let's stop pretending there are ANY "good guys" in this mess, because (aside from the civilians who don't support any of these murderous bastards) there aren't any.

    The ocean sure gives people a false sense of reality in this country, that's a fact.
    But how much of this shit would you support if Lebanon was our neighbor?
    I bet you think we wouldn't be dealing with the same thing, and that we'd just sit here with our thumbs up our butt.

    WRONG!
    If the "Army of Celine Dion" was launching rockets at me from inside the Canadian border, then I would locate them and take them out. I wouldn't bomb the shit out of Vancouver or Victoria in order to do so though. Nor would I kill the few decent highways they have up there.. Neither does a damn thing to punish the guilty and only creates enemies among the innocent.

    P.S. There is no such thing as a "respected" newspaper anymore...which is why I pay little attention to the media and have learned to read between the lines.
    There is very little difference between a blogger and an actual journalist.
    Aside from the obvious Murdoch, Mellon-Scaife, and Hollinger/Black franchises, there are still some credible newspapers out there. Unfortunately not many based in the US.

    The Guardian is usually reliable. Sydney Morning Herald is a great alternative to most of the Murdoch crap from down under. And Haaretz Daily is probably the closest thing you'll find to an honest newspaper in Israel.

    As far as bloggers go, if they can back up their story, then why not take them seriously? If the corporate whore media refuses to do their job, then somebody has to, right?

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    Both sides are needlessly, and intentionally, putting civilians at risk. And it's fucking sickening!
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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Both sides are needlessly, and intentionally, putting civilians at risk. And it's fucking sickening!
    Agreed...

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    The whole "(not) targeting civilians" angle has been worn out. This is a war and innocent civilians on both sides are going to be killed.

    Israel with it's great technologically advanced war machine kills civilians in almost every attack. Whether their technology is faulty, their intelligence lacking or if Hezbollah is dug in doesn't really matter. Civilians die in war. It sucks.

    Hezbollah, on the other hand, is being accused of actually targeting civilians while at the same time we're all being told that their missiles aren't accurate enough to be targeted. How can a civilian population be targeted when the weapons involved lack this level of precision? Hezbollah is being attacked from the south so they send their missiles to the south. Hitting their enemy (there can't be much doubt that Hezbollah's enemy is Israel, military or civilian). It's war...and it sucks.

    The war propaganda marches on unabated and the battle for public opinion of who is, or is not, "targeting civilians" continues to be irrelevant, at least to me.

    M
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    Originally posted by m_dixon1984
    The whole "(not) targeting civilians" angle has been worn out. This is a war and innocent civilians on both sides are going to be killed.

    Israel with it's great technologically advanced war machine kills civilians in almost every attack. Whether their technology is faulty, their intelligence lacking or if Hezbollah is dug in doesn't really matter. Civilians die in war. It sucks.

    Hezbollah, on the other hand, is being accused of actually targeting civilians while at the same time we're all being told that their missiles aren't accurate enough to be targeted. How can a civilian population be targeted when the weapons involved lack this level of precision? Hezbollah is being attacked from the south so they send their missiles to the south. Hitting their enemy (there can't be much doubt that Hezbollah's enemy is Israel, military or civilian). It's war...and it sucks.

    The war propaganda marches on unabated and the battle for public opinion of who is, or is not, "targeting civilians" continues to be irrelevant, at least to me.

    M
    Yeah, but the Israeli gov't is making themselves look like murdering terrorists in the eyes of the world. Sycophants not withstanding...

    They're losing the battle of hearts and minds against Hezbollah.

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Yeah, but the Israeli gov't is making themselves look like murdering terrorists in the eyes of the world. Sycophants not withstanding...

    They're losing the battle of hearts and minds against Hezbollah.
    You're right...the Israeli propaganda is failing. I've been confused a lot in the past few years about how propaganda is used and how ineffective it's been. Israel accuses Hezbollah of intentionally targeting civilians to try and sway national and international opinion when they should have known their own military actions would cause as much or more civilian casualties. Thus making their entire argument worthless and in this case making them look much worse (at least to some people).

    The US gov't swears to the US and the world that Iraq has WMDs, which would then make any invasion or attack's success dependant on that one specific thing...finding WMDs. The US gov't, Republican Party, should have paid greatly for this gaff but while support for the invasion dropped it wasn't enough to affect a leadership change. Despite all the horror Saddam put his country through the US invasion will always be seen as a failure to find WMDs regardless of what Iraq's future brings.

    It's far better to ensure that your propaganda is generic and not dependant on specifics. That way you avoid the obvious disparity between your words and your actions when failures occur. I've certainly stopped listening to or reading much of the information or opinion on who's targeting civilians or who isn't. It was a non-issue right from the start - just propaganda being used in a futile attempt to cover the horrors of war. When civilians are dying on both sides it seems quite pointless to keep bringing it up...and for some reason Israel can't stop answering the "tageting civilians" question. It should have be answered once with a "we're sorry that inocent people will die during our war against Hezbollah. Next question." Instead they keep insisting, well they were up to a few days ago, that they in no way target civilians, while civilians keep dying. Israel is certainly doing nothing to gain support for their cause, sycophantic nations still not withstanding (although I suspect that as the length of this war increases, sychophancy will decrease)

    M

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    What Israel should have done/be doing is the type of operation they mounted deep in Lebanon, where they sent heliborne commandos to storm a hospital and capture Hezbollah guerrillas deep behind the lines. Instead, they mount a huge ground assault on Hezbollah's strong points. The best Israeli operations, the ones that even make the Arabs admirers, where the Entebbe style raids, not strategic bombing campaigns. That's just my $.02.

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    Israel's propaganda will always fail with Arab countries and the UN, which is a worthless body. The paper they put their 'resolutions' on are about as meaningful as the Charmin I wipe my ass with on a daily basis, because they cannot back them up with any force.

    This war wouldn't have happened if the Lebanese government would have done it's job correctly six years ago.

    Who started the current confrontation? Israel? Nope.
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    Originally posted by Warham
    Israel's propaganda will always fail with Arab countries and the UN, which is a worthless body. The paper they put their 'resolutions' on are about as meaningful as the Charmin I wipe my ass with on a daily basis, because they cannot back them up with any force.

    This war wouldn't have happened if the Lebanese government would have done it's job correctly six years ago.

    Who started the current confrontation? Israel? Nope.
    There was no Lebanese Gov't six years ago, or what "gov't" there was was a puppet regime for the Syrians. The Autonomous Lebanese Gov't has existed for less than one year.

    Israel didn't start it, but they sure as hell started the dropping of bombs on civilians. Lebanon have a weak "symbolic" Army divided along sectarian lines, and political posts are divided up into partitions to all Muslim/Christian factions.
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08-04-2006 at 07:33 PM.

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    but they sure as hell started the dropping of bombs on civilians.
    And you believe that's their intent, or main objective ??

    You don't suppose they could possibly be targeting Hezbollah ??
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    I don't believe in civilians anymore.
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    Do you believe in terrorist organizations ??

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    Originally posted by Dr. Love
    I don't believe in civilians anymore.
    Wow that's a hell of a statement. I think the Israeli government agrees with it.

    The attitude now seems to be if a couple of pricks fire an RPG in the direction of Israel and then run into a towerblock the Israelis level the tower block.

    I think thats completely immoral. It's as immoral as convincing a suicide bomber to blow themselves up on bus in Tel Aviv.

    A lot of threads here seem to be falling into some black/white, one side is ok the other isn't bullshit.

    They're both as bad as each other. Bush and Blair should have the guts to say as much. Another bunch of bombs came on a plane from the US stopping for fuel at an airport 20 miles from me the other day on their way to Israel. The US gives Israel a $3 billion free account in arms each year. At this stage I don't see any difference between that and Syria providing arms to Hezbollah.

    Just about everything that Bush and his puppet Blair has done since 9-11 has lost us the high ground, any sort of moral superiority and has made things much much worse.

    Blair will be gone within the year thank fuck. He''s lost the plot completely and the support of his cabinet and party.

    It won't make much difference globally but at least I won't feel the blood is on our hands so much.

    Cheers!

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    Hezbollah is intentionally targeting civilians...

    Is that blood somehow on Israel's hands too ??

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    And you believe that's their intent, or main objective ??

    You don't suppose they could possibly be targeting Hezbollah ??
    Since they deliberately attacked relief columns, and are targeting Lebanese civilian infrastructure, yes, yes I do. And so do a lot of other people. They've killed nearly 1000 people, I think a quarter of them are under twelve, that's not just "human shields."

    Did you even read the article?

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    Of course I did...

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    Do you believe in terrorist organizations ??
    Define the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist.

    It's always difficult. I tend to think that to be a freedom fighter you have to have a moral cause, you have had your land stolen or invaded, you have to minimise any civilian casualties, you have to suffer persecution and racism under the new regime, you have to have no other option and you have to have a popular mandate amongst the repressed.

    To me a terrorist is someone who's cause is unjust, who is trying to terrorise a majority by acts of evil for a cause which is supported by a small minority. A terrorist acts with disregard to civilian or innocent people.

    Both sides in this conflict tick many boxes in both definitions here so can we stop the childish good guy bad guy shit please?

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Since they deliberately attacked relief columns, and are targeting Lebanese civilian infrastructure, yes, yes I do. And so do a lot of other people. They've killed nearly 1000 people, I think a quarter of them are under twelve, that's not just "human shields."

    Did you even read the article?
    The key word throughout this has been disproportianate.

    How can you possibly justify killing 250 children because a couple of your soldiers got kidnapped?

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    Well, Hezbollah IS a terrorist organization...

    The Israeli government is not...

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    If you act immorally in retaliation to terrorism it vindicates the original act.

    By your logic George Washington was a terrorist.

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    How can you possibly justify killing 250 children because a couple of your soldiers got kidnapped?
    So, you're saying the Israeli government targeted and murdered 250 children because two soldiers were taken hostage ??

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    Well, Hezbollah IS a terrorist organization...

    The Israeli government is not...
    Tell that to the residents of Sabra, Shatila, or Jenin. Just to name a few examples of Likud terrorism.

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    No I'm saying they don't give a fuck about Arab children, just like Hezbollah don't give a fuck about Israeli civilians.

    So don't give the Israeli government arms.

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    If you act immorally in retaliation to terrorism it vindicates the original act.

    By your logic George Washington was a terrorist.
    And according to the Brits at the time, I'm sure he was.

    Hell, the Pharisees even tried to convince the Romans that Jesus was a terrorist!!

    Wonder what Elvis says about that one....

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    Also could someone explain to me the US 'Christian' right attitude of fuck the Jews Passion of the Christ thing but give Israel bombs?

    Is this a lesser of two evils argument with the superstitious?

    Or is it just fucked up hypocrisy nonsense?

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    Fuck the Jews Passion of the Christ thing...:confused:

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    Also could someone explain to me the US 'Christian' right attitude of fuck the Jews Passion of the Christ thing but give Israel bombs?

    Is this a lesser of two evils argument with the superstitious?

    Or is it just fucked up hypocrisy nonsense?
    It's based around a prophecy made by Jesus Christ shortly before His crucifixion.

    Jesus said that the generation which witnessed the "time of the Gentiles being fulfilled" in Jerusalem would be the last generation before the "end of the world".

    This refers to Israel regaining control of Jerusalem, which took place in 1967 (though the Arabs obviously dispute the claim)

    A "generation" in the old Hebrew terminology meant approximately 40 years.

    Which basically means the religious reich types think they can "force" Christ's return by escalating war in the Middle East, even though Jesus himself said that only His Father would know the day and the hour of the second coming.

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    Originally posted by FORD
    And according to the Brits at the time, I'm sure he was.

    Hell, the Pharisees even tried to convince the Romans that Jesus was a terrorist!!

    Wonder what Elvis says about that one....

    Hey don't get me wrong fuck the Hanovarian cunts. They tried to wipe out my ancestors culture, stole their land forcing them to emigrate and slaughtered thousands.

    All you guys got an unfair tax on tea...

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    Originally posted by FORD
    Which basically means the religious reich types think they can "force" Christ's return by escalating war in the Middle East
    Which basically is absolute BULLSHIT...

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    Jesus considered the Jewish people His family. Jesus said (Matthew 25:40) "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren (the Jewish people… Gentiles were never called His brethren), ye have done it unto me."

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    Originally posted by FORD
    It's based around a prophecy made by Jesus Christ shortly before His crucifixion.

    Jesus said that the generation which witnessed the "time of the Gentiles being fulfilled" in Jerusalem would be the last generation before the "end of the world".
    The bible has been manipulated and rewritten so many times to suit the people in power I bet the original prophecy was "the time of my genitals being fulfilled".

    So it's 2007 now FORD?

    LOL.

    There's a big cult for 2012 you should get ready for that too when 2007 doesn't happen.

    Google end of the world prophecies. This shit has been going on every few years since the middle ages...

    It makes people feel important because they fully expect they will be there when it happens. It's a way of dealing with the unimaginal pointlessness of it all.

    You're born, you get a pretty pointless job, you die, you rot. Within 40 years after that you don't exist because anyone that gave a fuck about you and knew you is dead too. Understandably a lot of people don't like that thought and look to religions, end of the world prophecies or a combination of both.

    Time to wise up big guy...

    I dunno I don't have the answers. Maybe you should go and breed or something. It's definately a distraction if nothing else...

    Cheers!


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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    Which basically is absolute BULLSHIT...
    Tell that to the freaks at www.raptureready.com :eek:

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    I feel a troll coming on.

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    The bible has been manipulated and rewritten so many times to suit the people in power I bet the original prophecy was "the time of my genitals being fulfilled".

    So it's 2007 now FORD?

    I don't know. Though I can't see the world going the direction that it has gone this decade for much longer without major disasters taken place.

    Jesus' prophecy could not have been fulfilled at any other time previously, because the nation of Israel did not exist, and could not have controlled Jerusalem. Also the "mark of the beast" cashless economic system, obviously reliant on computers, wouldn't have been possible until the last decade or so.

    Does that mean Jesus is coming next week, next month, next year, or next decade. I don't know. What I do know is that SOMEONE has to save us from these fucking corporatist-fascists, and damn soon

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    Originally posted by FORD
    Tell that to the freaks at www.raptureready.com :eek:

    Do the freaks even realise the rapture isn't in the bible and was invented by some drunk nutcase little Scottish woman?

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    I realize it's not really in the Bible...

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    You're born, you get a pretty pointless job, you die, you rot. Within 40 years after that you don't exist because anyone that gave a fuck about you and knew you is dead too. Understandably a lot of people don't like that thought and look to religions, end of the world prophecies or a combination of both.



    Cheers!


    Believe it or not, I would prefer that to be true...

    Unfortunately, It's not...

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    Jesus considered the Jewish people His family. Jesus said (Matthew 25:40) "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren (the Jewish people… Gentiles were never called His brethren), ye have done it unto me."
    Are Arab children not 'the least of his brethern'?

    Hey you're supporting killing the babies of Jesus you sonofabitch!

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