Wolfie or Mike? And Why?

[if6was9]

Originally posted by Plexi Head
Only guy I saw live pull off Alex Van Halen was Virgil Donnati, see I do get out and listen to other musicians.

Sure, you are listening to Van Halen and Van Halen cover bands. It's a big variety.

[Plexi Head]

Originally posted by if6was9
Sure, you are listening to Van Halen and Van Halen cover bands. It's a big variety.

Glad you understood the irony of my post.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by if6was9
Elvis: Yeah... the REAL understanding of music. Tell me about it, oh great guru.

Dude, I've been a guitarist for nearly 30 years and my playing speaks for itself...

I'm also a bass player and a drummer...

I have a pretty good understanding of rock music as do quite a few people on this website...

You, obviously, are not one of them...

[if6was9]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I have a pretty good understanding of rock music as do quite a few people on this website...

You, obviously, are not one of them...

As I said, the f&%king guru! The only one who understands rock music, and the one to set the standards of understanding.

Man, I'm impressed with your buffoonery.

[ELVIS]

But you're the buffoon, if you can't listen to Fair Warning and realize that the drums and bass on that album are some of the best ever caught on tape...

[if6was9]

I always wondered why you guys so uncritically repeat "Fair Waning", "Fair Warning", "Fair Warning"... Like it was the highest achievement in the history of heavy metal. This album is so pompous, so... un-VH. How about the better half of "1984": "Drop Dead Legs", "Hot For Teacher", "Top Jimmy", "Panama" and the best of them all - "Girl Gone Bad"? This is the rock band working like a machine. But AFAIK, Mike's input for this LP was marginal.

[if6was9]

BTW, As for the best drums & bass "ever caught on tape", I'd rather dig for some funk or fusion records.

[Plexi Head]

Originally posted by if6was9
BTW, As for the best drums & bass "ever caught on tape", I'd rather dig for some funk or fusion records.

Try digging on the B side. Ever heard a song called Push comes to shove?
Funk and fusion all in the one song and it's all done without masturbation. (And the best fusion solo "ever caught pn tape")

Difference between Van Halen and funk or fusion as you put is the one and only Diamond Dave singing his ass off.

Christ, have you listened to Holdsworths pitiful vocalists over the years?

The fact that you call Fair Warning un-Van Halen indicates you aint nuth'n but a fucking troll anyhow.

[if6was9]

Originally posted by Plexi Head
Try digging on the B side. Ever heard a song called Push comes to shove?
Funk and fusion all in the one song and it's all done without masturbation. (And the best fusion solo "ever caught pn tape")

Difference between Van Halen and funk or fusion as you put is the one and only Diamond Dave singing his ass off.

Christ, have you listened to Holdsworths pitiful vocalists over the years?

The fact that you call Fair Warning un-Van Halen indicates you aint nuth'n but a fucking troll anyhow.

Wow!!! So basically you believe that the only diferrence between funk/fusion and VH is Dave's voice? That's extremely interesting. Is it pure dilettantism or your "irony" again?

And what made you think that "Push Comes to Shove" has something to do with funk or fusion? The groove, the scales, the harmonies? Listen to some Marcus Miller or Bootsy Collins stuff, you'll have an overall idea.

I love "Unchained" and "Hear About It Later", but IMHO "Fair Warning" is inauthentic Van Halen, if you prefer.

[Plexi Head]

Originally posted by if6was9
Wow!!! So basically you believe that the only diferrence between funk/fusion and VH is Dave's voice? That's extremely interesting. Is it pure dilettantism or your "irony" again?

And what made you think that "Push Comes to Shove" has something to do with funk or fusion? The groove, the scales, the harmonies? Listen to some Marcus Miller or Bootsy Collins stuff, you'll have an overall idea.

I love "Unchained" and "Hear About It Later", but IMHO "Fair Warning" is inauthentic Van Halen, if you prefer.

The last good thing Marcus Miller did was fucking Tutu with Miles.
I aint heard nuth'n but fucking sanitised crap from him in recent years. How much of that shit can ya listen to without getting board. Seriously, the guy needs to lay off the compressor too, jesus.

Bootsy been god damn playing the same shit for forty years.

Dude, I do have an overall idea, that you have no idea. This is a fucking David Lee Roth site and you are fucking talking about how we should all go listen to funk and save our poor lost rock & roll souls.

You have a small opinion of yourself dontcha?

If I wanna listen to funk I listen to Prince, at least he adds some originality, creativity, interest and some fucking balls.

Fucking Marcus Miller, sheesh.

[if6was9]

It took you some time to make all this google research. Well done!

And do you still believe Van Halen (minus Dave) used to play funk, Mr Plexi Head?

[Plexi Head]

Originally posted by if6was9
It took you some time to make all this google research. Well done!

And do you still believe Van Halen (minus Dave) used to play funk, Mr Plexi Head?

Van Halen are generally regarded as one of the first funk- heavy rock bands preceeding the likes of the Peppers and friends by years. In many songs Dave raps rather than sings.

You got me. I googled Marcus Miller and it told me how sterile and predictable his playing is.

You should run for congress because you have a knack at avoiding questions and a habit of trying to divert your studidity with inane statements and dumb accusations that have nigh on nothing to add to the thread at hand.

Don't worry, I will tire of you quickly.

[if6was9]

Before you tire completely, I'll add my 2 cents. "Push Comes To Shove" was the worst example you could give. This track lacks groove, mostly because Alex plays Charlie Watts-like gloomy beat. Mike's octave pattern with hammered on 7-8 is not sufficient to call it funk. Even Eddie's sixteenth-note riff couldn't save the groove. IMHO "Mean Streat" is much closer to funk than "Push" or any other VH's song.

[FORD]

Originally posted by if6was9


I love "Unchained" and "Hear About It Later", but IMHO "Fair Warning" is inauthentic Van Halen, if you prefer.

Uh, that would be a BIG No.

Fair Warning is different from the records that preceded it because it was the first album Van HALEN had to write from scratch (excepting the music for Mean Street, which was a combination of two older songs, "Voodoo Queen" and "She's the Woman")

In other words, almost everything on the previous three albums had been written and performed live in the clubs for literally years before it was put on an album. Indeed, Women and Children First contained 2 of Van HALEN's oldest songs, "In a Simple Rhyme" and "Take Your Whiskey Home" which were on the Cherokee Studios demo they did way back in the days before Sobolewski even joined the band. So you had songs on the radio in 1980 which were seven fucking years old by the time they were released.

You think a band might change how they write songs in seven years? How about comparing the Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" (1965) to "All Down The Line" (1972)? Bit of a difference there, isn't it? Same band (less one guitar player anyway) but a different approach to writing.

Take Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" (1971) and compare it to "Fool In The Rain" (1979). Again, there's a huge difference.

Nothing wrong with musicians expanding their vision a little, which is what Van HALEN did with Fair Warning. And in my not so humble opinion, it's the best thing they ever did.

But then, the first four albums are basically perfect anyway.......

[if6was9]

Originally posted by FORD
You think a band might change how they write songs in seven years? How about comparing the Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" (1965) to "All Down The Line" (1972)? Bit of a difference there, isn't it? Same band (less one guitar player anyway) but a different approach to writing.

This is some theory, but I'm not buying it. "Fair Warning" was different than the previous albums, but it was also different than the following albums. So I'm afraid it wasn't a result of band's gradual progress, but a single extravagance. Next year they were playing their usual stuff again - covers, tomfoolery, nice songs. The aggression came back on "1984", but only in couple of tracks. The rest was tainted by Eddie's pop shit and it became quite clear that the band - as we knew it - was doomed.

[ZahZoo]

Originally posted by FORD
I'd consider Mike an "average" bass player.

He's obviously not on the level of Billy Sheehan, John Entwistle, or Geddy Lee but on the other hand, he's not Sid Vicious or Stuart Sutcliffe either.

It's no secret that Mike's harmonies were his primary contribution to the Van HALEN sound, more than his bass playing.

I think average sells him short... you can't make a real comparison with Sheehan or Geddy unless you took the original CVH recordings and rerecorded them with those guys and turned them loose.

I look at some of the legendary power trios over the years and I put Mike right up there with his bass playing as I would with a few other legends... teamed up with a legendary guitar player. For example:

Noel Redding and especially Billy Cox behind Hendrix.

Tommy Shannon behind SRV.

James Dewar behind Robin Trower.

Dusty Hill behind Billy Gibbons.

None of those guys on bass are considered huge creative geniuses but on the other hand they laid down one hell of a lot of solid bottom-end in the history of rock music.

I strongly believe that if you took any one of them including Michael Anthony on the CVH 6 pack out of the mix and replaced them it would NOT be what it is today.

All the classic Van Halen hits were made with MA... is there a single VH hit song that really should be changed? Some damn good shit as it is... If it ain't broke... why fix it?

[DavidLeeNatra]

Originally posted by ZahZoo
I think average sells him short... you can't make a real comparison with Sheehan or Geddy unless you took the original CVH recordings and rerecorded them with those guys and turned them loose.

I look at some of the legendary power trios over the years and I put Mike right up there with his bass playing as I would with a few other legends... teamed up with a legendary guitar player. For example:

Noel Redding and especially Billy Cox behind Hendrix.

Tommy Shannon behind SRV.

James Dewar behind Robin Trower.

Dusty Hill behind Billy Gibbons.

None of those guys on bass are considered huge creative geniuses but on the other hand they laid down one hell of a lot of solid bottom-end in the history of rock music.

I strongly believe that if you took any one of them including Michael Anthony on the CVH 6 pack out of the mix and replaced them it would NOT be what it is today.

All the classic Van Halen hits were made with MA... is there a single VH hit song that really should be changed? Some damn good shit as it is... If it ain't broke... why fix it?

yeah...

[ELVIS]

Awesome post FORD and 100% on the money...

Same goes for ZahZoo...

I think Michael Anthony is a great bass player...

Judging his playing from his crazy live bass solos is ignorant...

His playing on the CVH albums is pretty much perfect for every song and his performances on every boot I have or have heard is great...

No, his live solo was not technically impressive, but I will say again, it sounded really cool when witnessing it live...

[lonnieg5]

I'm not sure if6was9 is even a Van Halen fan... Seems all he wants to do is bash them.

[if6was9]

Originally posted by lonnieg5
I'm not sure if6was9 is even a Van Halen fan... Seems all he wants to do is bash them.

I beg your pardon! Can you think for yourself, you zealot? It doesn't hurt.

[ZahZoo]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I think Michael Anthony is a great bass player...

Judging his playing from his crazy live bass solos is ignorant...

His playing on the CVH albums is pretty much perfect for every song and his performances on every boot I have or have heard is great...

No, his live solo was not technically impressive, but I will say again, it sounded really cool when witnessing it live...

That pretty much sums it up. To me it's all solid bass playing and it really takes talent even for what most perceive as "simple" bass lines. It ain't as easy as it looks and technically it takes cajones to make it work especially live.

Judging MA by his solo is plain ignorant... who the fuck critiques bass solos anyways?

A good portion of the Sappy Headed Ho's here weren't even around to witness a CVH concert. NO you can't get the real vibe watching boots either... traditionally known as the "Lou Syndrom"...

[if6was9]

Originally posted by ZahZoo
A good portion of the Sappy Headed Ho's here weren't even around to witness a CVH concert. NO you can't get the real vibe watching boots either... traditionally known as the "Lou Syndrom"...

It's not my fault I was born and had to live behind the fucking Iron Courtain, without a chance to see them live when they were still together. It was impossible even to buy their albums, buy I meneged to get them somehow. Think twice before you write something like this again, Mr. Arrogant.

[if6was9]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Judging his playing from his crazy live bass solos is ignorant...

If he could have played any better, he certainly would have. We would hear it sooner or later (but we didn't). You claim to be a musician, so you should know it. If I were him, I'd blush for shame after playing shit like that. But no, he used to play the same crap for so many years, like he wasn't able to learn anything else. So maybe he wasn't. Do you think making fool of himself has been the part of his contract?

You say he was a GREAT bass player. So where is his greatness, 'cos I can't see it? You don't even know wether his bass lines were really his. Maybe they were composed by Eddie and Mike only played them. I can't see anything special in his music, nothing revealing, nothing inspiring, nothing I could remember, admire, or just say "wow!". Simple rhythmic patterns, simple harmonies (too simple). Everyone could make them up and play, probably even you and me. He was efficient and solid, but this is the best I can say about him. Maybe it was enough for Van Halen, however it's not the reason to call him GREAT.

BTW, If Mike was so great, why Eddie & Dave wanted to replace him with Billy Sheehan or Jeff Berlin in the early 80s? AFAIK it was Alex who opposed.

[Little Lamont]

Man, this dude is out there for sure. Say you managed to get the "impossible to get" records then talk all this shit about Mike. I'm with g5 on this one. You ain't no fan. What you are is an argumentative little motherfucker trying to stir up some shit.

I say we all ingore him and let him go away. Not one more post on this thread. And I'm starting right... now.

[if6was9]

Dude, you scared the shit out of me. I'll do anything, just don't put me on ignore!!!

Just kidding.

[lonnieg5]

Leave my name out of your posts Lamont. I may have questioned his loyalty, but he's entitled to his opinion as much as you are.

if6was9, call me a zealot if you want, that's fine. But I wouldn't change one note on those first 6 albums.

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by kamaboko
Just what the fuck do you think any other base player would have done?

What is a base player?

[if6was9]

Originally posted by lonnieg5
if6was9, call me a zealot if you want, that's fine. But I wouldn't change one note on those first 6 albums.

Do you think I would? I love them as they are. It's just interesting to imagine how (and if) VH's music would change if they replaced Mike with someone else. Maybe we'll be given a chance to hear it?

[DavidLeeNatra]

Originally posted by if6was9
Do you think I would? I love them as they are. It's just interesting to imagine how (and if) VH's music would change if they replaced Mike with someone else. Maybe we'll be given a chance to hear it?

I wouldn't call it "a chance"

[indeedido]

Mikey is a fine bass player. He plays bass, not an overly complicated instrument. He is an easy target to make fun of, like drummers. He has great background harmonies and sits in the pocket with his bass playing. He keeps the rythmn with the drums. that is his job. Not everyone should play like Sheehan. I admire Sheehan's skill, but hate to listen to him tap on a bass, it sounds rediculous. I say bring Mike back in.

[if6was9]

Originally posted by indeedido
Not everyone should play like Sheehan. I admire Sheehan's skill, but hate to listen to him tap on a bass, it sounds rediculous. I say bring Mike back in.

You don't have to chose only Mike's style or Billy's style. There is entire ocean of bassists between Mike and Billy. Plus a small lake of bassists beyond Billy. Bass is not as simple instrument as you think. In fact it's not simple at all, although it's got less strings (well, most of them) than a guitar.

[Plexi Head]

Originally posted by if6was9

BTW, If Mike was so great, why Eddie & Dave wanted to replace him with Billy Sheehan or Jeff Berlin in the early 80s? AFAIK it was Alex who opposed.

Exactly!

You defeat your own argument.
The guy most likely to want to replace the bass player would more than likely be the other half of the rhythm section.

You talk about Eddie wanting to replace Mike? The guy who every six months has "a new best friend"

Cherone was his soul mate, Sammy his greatest bud, the guy is eratic at the best of times.
Ernie Ball are ""the best guitars ever!" Oh no, Peavey are the only guys that really get it right!"
Wait a minute....Fender are the only company that "Really listens"

To say Eddie was going to replace Mike with Jeff Berlin is total crap.
Eddie jammed with him a couple of times and Berlin played bass on the Holdsworth Warners album that Ed was "supposed" to produce but never fronted to the sessions.

Yep, Berlin would have fit right into to the mighty Van Halen, porno stauche and all.

You don't have a clue so shut the fuck up for two minutes.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by if6was9
Bass is not as simple instrument as you think. In fact it's not simple at all, although it's got less strings (well, most of them) than a guitar.

Just as Plexi said, you defeat your owm argument...

[ZahZoo]

Originally posted by if6was9
Do you think I would? I love them as they are. It's just interesting to imagine how (and if) VH's music would change if they replaced Mike with someone else. Maybe we'll be given a chance to hear it?

I'll go out on limb here and venture that you aren't a musician... right?

Changing the bass player in Van Halen's music won't have the impact you are thinking of. It won't improve... period.

Why? Well let Mr Arrogant tell you...

The key component of VH's song writing is based upon Edward's rhythm playing style. He uses a wide variation of power chords, melodic runs, fills and oddball key manipulations up and down the fretboard within a song. While the basic chordal structure of a given song may be Am, D, G... you won't catch Ed playing traditional chords or strumming structures like most players for more than half a measure. Ed got bored with that years ago.

Combine Ed improvisation style with Al's drums. While a lot of guitar players key off the bass... Ed keys mostly off of the drums. The combination of Ed and Al make up 80% of the song structure from a melodic perspective.

The underlying thing that pulls Ed and Al together are Mike's bass lines. While they may look simple... the interplay within that structure is very very complex in order to produce the right tension between the 3 instruments and sonic range. In majority of the cases... it's a very precarious zone that requires impecable timing, attack and finess to pull it off and fill the right places and time slots within the registers.

OK music lesson is over for the day... Now for the non-musician who continues this assinine prospect that Sheehan would make an impact. Go listen to the EEAS boots where they play CVH tunes and with an honest face tell me the songs sounded better due to the bass..??? Right... bullshit.

To my ears they sounded like shit... Drums weren't there, Vai will never touch Ed and Sheehan didn't bring anything stellar to the table either to make it all better...

Back on subject... Wolfgang Van Halen is at least 15-20 years away from having the experience and talent to hold down bass duties touring with Van Halen. It don't matter about DNA... the 2004 tour appearances Wolfie made sounded like a 13 year old who learned the basic chords while Dad wanked... there was NOT ONE OUNCE of indication this kid was gifted musically in any way, shape or form. He sure as hell didn't go out and rip Eruption better than Dad's worst drunken moments!!! Just Ed's kid playing a few chords... end of fucking story. Hugs, kisses and sappy campy family moment.

Michael Anthony is the bass player for Van Halen... the right one too.

[FORD]

Originally posted by 4moreyears
What is a base player?

This guy was one of the more famous ones, yet not in the Hall of Fame.......

[if6was9]

Originally posted by Plexi Head
The guy most likely to want to replace the bass player would more than likely be the other half of the rhythm section.

Or perhaps the possibility of playing with Sheehan and Berlin scared the shit out of Alex. Without Mike, he would become the weakest link in the chain. Mike was always dominated by other members of the band. Do you think Billy, Jeff or any other bass player (except Wolfie) would be so submissive, too?

[DavidLeeNatra]

Originally posted by FORD
This guy was one of the more famous ones, yet not in the Hall of Fame.......

what great start in the day...

[if6was9]

Originally posted by ZahZoo
I'll go out on limb here and venture that you aren't a musician... right?

You got me here!

Originally posted by ZahZoo
The underlying thing that pulls Ed and Al together are Mike's bass lines. While they may look simple... the interplay within that structure is very very complex in order to produce the right tension between the 3 instruments and sonic range. In majority of the cases... it's a very precarious zone that requires impecable timing, attack and finess to pull it off and fill the right places and time slots within the registers.

Complex structures? Oh, c'mon. What surprises me most in VH's music is the gap (or rather abyss) between Ed's progressive & visionary style and Mike's absolutely archaic concept of playing bass. Most of the time he just follows Eddie's riffs, or plays the root notes with the bass drum, or tries to play simple walking patterns. All of this plus timing, attack and intonation is bassist's ABC. Almost every time he tries to add something and "decorate" the bass line, it sounds outdated, like a music from the 60s or early 70s. Constrained counterpoints, poor polyrhythmia, twanging strings. It's a bit tiresome and boring, don't you think? Bass players made unbelievable progress since then, but Mike seemed not to realize this simple fact and musically stopped in his school days. Though I must admit he had some good moments on "Diver Down".

BTW, Wasn't it Ed who claimed that Mike's musical input for VH's music was ZERO? Van Halen without Mike is still Van Halen. But who is Mike without Van Halen?

Originally posted by ZahZoo
Combine Ed improvisation style with Al's drums. While a lot of guitar players key off the bass... Ed keys mostly off of the drums. The combination of Ed and Al make up 80% of the song structure from a melodic perspective.

OK music lesson is over for the day... Now for the non-musician who continues this assinine prospect that Sheehan would make an impact. Go listen to the EEAS boots where they play CVH tunes and with an honest face tell me the songs sounded better due to the bass..??? Right... bullshit.

To my ears they sounded like shit... Drums weren't there, Vai will never touch Ed and Sheehan didn't bring anything stellar to the table either to make it all better...

You miss the point again. Van Halen wasn't about Eddie's improvisations + Al's drums, but about Eddie's magic riffs. Everything else was secondary. EEAS wasn't riff-based, but voice-based, probably bacause Vai couldn't make up good riffs. This "small" distinction completely changes the very concept of the band, the position of the bassist and the drummer are not the same as in VH. Besides, EEAS wasn't VH cover band, it was a different animal. Listen to their original material, you'll have an idea what was going on between Billy and Gregg. They were eaons ahead of Mike and Al.

[kamaboko]

Hell, Ed wouldn't know what to do with a great bass player. Like it or not, Ed's music is about ED. How long do you think Sheehan would have lasted with Ed? Maybe a tour at best.

Listen to Ed's rhythm guitar tracks. They require a constant thump, thump, thump damn near 70% of the time. For instance, what the hell would Sheehan do to any of the songs on the 1st album? His shit would fuck them up. Mike is perfect for this band.

Christ, some of you people talk like VH would be the next Rush or something. Sorry, Ed isn't that good (b/c he's used the same fucking riffs for the past 20 years), and Mike is definitely not up to the challenge.

[if6was9]

Originally posted by kamaboko
For instance, what the hell would Sheehan do to any of the songs on the 1st album?

I have no idea, but I'm curious. If you missed something, we're not talking here about Sheehan playing the 1st album. The 1st album has been recorded ages ago, this is history.

It's funny how some of you guys seem to know everything about things that never happened, without asking any questions. You just know it. Thank God, life is full of surprises, especially when it comes to Eddie Van Halen - the most unpredictable man in show business.