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Thread: The Army Boxing Thread

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    Okay, so I watched the fight....here's the reality...Pacquiao landed more punches (not bigger punches, but more punches), and he was the aggressor in the fight...moving forward (again, not saying that's a cause for the win, but he WAS the aggressor). In many ways, the fight reminded me of that long ago Haglar, Leonard fight, in which Haglar attacked...attacked...attacked...and was foiled time and time again by Leonard...who brilliantly moved around the ring until the final minute of each round, and landed several punches that had no effect, but lasted in the judges minds. It wasn't exactly the same, but you could assuredly see some of the same strategy in JMM's fight plan...and of course...the outcome went against him.

    I think this fight reminded me more of the Hopkins Calzeghe fight from a few years back...when Calzeghe landed a ton of punches that had absolutely no effect on Hopkins, and Hopkins hit the bigger punches. Calzeghe won the points fight in ridiculous fashion. Guys like Lederman always gives points to the guy he respects more. Okay...getting sidetracked...I could talk about that fight all day long. I'm not a huge Hopkins fan, but he got jobbed in that fight...similar to JMM in this fight.

    While Pacquaio was the aggressor, he wasn't dictating the pace of the fight...JMM was...clearly doing that. Pacman has had fights in which he's thrown 900+ punches (when he's dictating)...I think he threw under 600 on Saturday. JMM clearly dictated the pace. So while he wasn't the aggressor, he was definitively leading Pacman in...and getting in close to keep him from his ridiculous flurries that open up his big punches.

    I had Marquez winning round 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12...with ALL of the other rounds close.

    Did JMM get "screwed?" I thought he dictated the pace in an effective manner, and imo...won more rounds...but...

    no way he got "screwed." That was a close motherfucking fight. I really think that fight could have gone either way...but IMO...was JMM's best fight against Pacman...so he deserved at least a draw...
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    I just don't see how Pacman got the nod. He thought he'd lost - you could tell by him demeanor - Amir Khan (commenting for the UK), thought he'd lost. JMM was landing the more significant punches, they had some pop on them, and he made Pacquiao look ineffective.

    I actually think it was much less close than their second fight, in which I could see a case for the fight being scored either way. I scored the first even and gave Pacquiao 6, 10, 11, 12. I gave JMM 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10. 3 and 8 was very, very close. We saw a great fight, but got a shitty result. A loss really wouldn't have dented Pacman's greatness: but a win would have enhanced Marquez's (there's now a case for him edging all 3 of their contests!)

    No-one got 'robbed' in Calzaghe-Hopkins: it was too close to call. I remember watching it live and thinking that Hopkins had edged it as the bell rang in the 12th, before adding my scores up to see that I had Calzaghe 2 rounds ahead. It was an ugly ass fight, but Hopkins new he was losing (thus the whole 'I'll pretend he hit me low so I can take a breather' fakery). Calzaghe just out-hussled him, but neither guy really did all that much that was significant after the KD in round 1. Hopkins moved, moved, moved, and Calzaghe smothered him with ineffective punches.

    The carreer of Joe Calzaghe - impressive as it was - is a case of missed opportunity (for which his promoter must really take the blame). And I say that as a fan. Shit, whenever he got in the ring with some real talent he schooled 'em. Jeff Lacy, Chris Eubank and Mikkel Kessler being the obvious cases in point. But there are so many guys they could have made fights with: Glen Johnson, Kelly Pavlik (it could - and should - have been Joe who exposed him), Jermain Taylor, Steve Collins (who actually backed out of the fight, not Calzaghe). But caution leads with Frank Warren, who clearly didn't want to risk the cash cow. Joe had a heroic amount of defences against some very good - but far from great - opponents (Mario Veit, Charles Brewer, Omar Sheika, Byron Mitchell,) but the whole camp just wasn't ambitious enough to make him reach his potential. He's still the greatest 168lber ever, and the consensus amongst the experts seems to be that if he'd been in the 'Super Six' he'd have been the safe bet.
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    Exclamation Just got an interestig pic from the fight...

    I just spoke to my UFC buddy, who watched the fight and pointed out a bit of shadiness on JMM's part: No less than 6 times did he step on Manny's right foot, preventing Manny from moving away from some combinations here and there. Never thought of Marquez as a shady fighter, but this isn't exactly kosher. He even sent me some screen shots of it....



    I mean, I was hoping for a JMM win, but this was just like....wow!
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    It's not like the 168 pound class is ripe full of talent though. They were good fighters for sure, but Calzeghe is the best of a middling division only touched upon by the truly talented on occasion. You could really make a case that Jones Jr. popped more punch in his short career as a Super Middle than Calzeghe did in much of his career. While I'm not going to argue that point, because it would ONLY be conjecture, some of Jones Jr's most impressive fights were at 168. Of course, I only think he had ten or so fights at Super Middle...

    and I know he had to go down once or twice while at 168 to defend the middleweight title.

    His fight against Toney...when Toney was the lb for lb king was legendary...total domination...and mockery of Toney in his priime.

    Had he stayed there, and not gone up to light heavy...it would have been an interesting conversation regarding the top slot.

    Had they fought five or six years earlier than their 2008 fight, it would have been a blockbuster...

    Agreed that Calzeghe is the clear top...and Jones somewhere in the 3-5 range...but the what ifs are fun to think about.

    I've never thought much of Calzeghe...perhaps out of ignorance...but ugly or not...I thought Hopkins won that fight...and should have gotten a rematch instead of that bullshit fight against a washed up Jones Jr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by POJO_Risin View Post
    It's not like the 168 pound class is ripe full of talent though. They were good fighters for sure, but Calzeghe is the best of a middling division only touched upon by the truly talented on occasion. You could really make a case that Jones Jr. popped more punch in his short career as a Super Middle than Calzeghe did in much of his career. While I'm not going to argue that point, because it would ONLY be conjecture, some of Jones Jr's most impressive fights were at 168. Of course, I only think he had ten or so fights at Super Middle...

    and I know he had to go down once or twice while at 168 to defend the middleweight title.

    His fight against Toney...when Toney was the lb for lb king was legendary...total domination...and mockery of Toney in his priime.

    Had he stayed there, and not gone up to light heavy...it would have been an interesting conversation regarding the top slot.

    Had they fought five or six years earlier than their 2008 fight, it would have been a blockbuster...

    Agreed that Calzeghe is the clear top...and Jones somewhere in the 3-5 range...but the what ifs are fun to think about.

    I've never thought much of Calzeghe...perhaps out of ignorance...but ugly or not...I thought Hopkins won that fight...and should have gotten a rematch instead of that bullshit fight against a washed up Jones Jr.
    This may be just me, but I think a lot of it has to do witth both fighters leading with the same foot. I'm guessig this happens a lot to Pac...and he didnt bitch about it, so I'm guessing it asn't an issue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by POJO_Risin View Post
    This may be just me, but I think a lot of it has to do witth both fighters leading with the same foot. I'm guessig this happens a lot to Pac...and he didnt bitch about it, so I'm guessing it asn't an issue...

    There's probably something to that, but my friend is a trained fighter (so I tend to give his opinion some extra weight amongst the rest of the office dudes), and said now that he's watched the replays a few times (apparently all the rounds are already up on YouTube) he says he's never seen JMM fight in the wider stance he was in that night (he's a fan of both JMM and Manny), and that he appeared to be watching for Manny's right foot and intentionally jumping on it... even given that he says the only reason HE thinks it wasn't a draw was that PacMan came off like the aggressor for the majority of the fight...but also agrees it was close, and Manny never dominated Marquez at any point in the fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    But if he wants another tune-up (can we call Ortiz atune up?), maybe a guy like Malignaggi would be interesting.
    Ooof...

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    Looks like Manny "The Fraud" Pacquiao will attempt to fuck Marquez for a 4th time, fitting seeing he knows Floyd would beat his ass
    http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id...ven-talk-fight
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    Quote Originally Posted by POJO_Risin View Post
    Okay, so I watched the fight....here's the reality...Pacquiao landed more punches (not bigger punches, but more punches), and he was the aggressor in the fight...moving forward (again, not saying that's a cause for the win, but he WAS the aggressor). In many ways, the fight reminded me of that long ago Haglar, Leonard fight, in which Haglar attacked...attacked...attacked...and was foiled time and time again by Leonard...who brilliantly moved around the ring until the final minute of each round, and landed several punches that had no effect, but lasted in the judges minds. It wasn't exactly the same, but you could assuredly see some of the same strategy in JMM's fight plan...and of course...the outcome went against him.

    I think this fight reminded me more of the Hopkins Calzeghe fight from a few years back...when Calzeghe landed a ton of punches that had absolutely no effect on Hopkins, and Hopkins hit the bigger punches. Calzeghe won the points fight in ridiculous fashion. Guys like Lederman always gives points to the guy he respects more. Okay...getting sidetracked...I could talk about that fight all day long. I'm not a huge Hopkins fan, but he got jobbed in that fight...similar to JMM in this fight.

    While Pacquaio was the aggressor, he wasn't dictating the pace of the fight...JMM was...clearly doing that. Pacman has had fights in which he's thrown 900+ punches (when he's dictating)...I think he threw under 600 on Saturday. JMM clearly dictated the pace. So while he wasn't the aggressor, he was definitively leading Pacman in...and getting in close to keep him from his ridiculous flurries that open up his big punches.

    I had Marquez winning round 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12...with ALL of the other rounds close.

    Did JMM get "screwed?" I thought he dictated the pace in an effective manner, and imo...won more rounds...but...

    no way he got "screwed." That was a close motherfucking fight. I really think that fight could have gone either way...but IMO...was JMM's best fight against Pacman...so he deserved at least a draw...
    Just another chapter in the hype machine that is Pacman, reality will hit if he ever gets in the ring with Floyd, I've said it for years now, Floyd can and will destroy him, wouldn't even be close.

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    You know what sucks about the whole PacFraud/Marquez thing? After 3 fights that could have went Marquez's way if he does agree to a 4th he will likely fight in a different manner and the Fraud will finally get a clean win over him. This whole thing blows, boxing needs saving from shit like this, I remember begging Mick to record fights for me when I was a kid because I was into it big time, loved watching anything I could get my hands on and while their was plenty of controversy back then to it just seems to get worse by the year, pisses me off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFM_Dale View Post
    You know what sucks about the whole PacFraud/Marquez thing? After 3 fights that could have went Marquez's way if he does agree to a 4th he will likely fight in a different manner and the Fraud will finally get a clean win over him. This whole thing blows, boxing needs saving from shit like this, I remember begging Mick to record fights for me when I was a kid because I was into it big time, loved watching anything I could get my hands on and while their was plenty of controversy back then to it just seems to get worse by the year, pisses me off.
    Dude. I SO want to man hug you right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by POJO_Risin View Post
    It's not like the 168 pound class is ripe full of talent though. They were good fighters for sure, but Calzeghe is the best of a middling division only touched upon by the truly talented on occasion. You could really make a case that Jones Jr. popped more punch in his short career as a Super Middle than Calzeghe did in much of his career. While I'm not going to argue that point, because it would ONLY be conjecture, some of Jones Jr's most impressive fights were at 168. Of course, I only think he had ten or so fights at Super Middle...

    and I know he had to go down once or twice while at 168 to defend the middleweight title.

    His fight against Toney...when Toney was the lb for lb king was legendary...total domination...and mockery of Toney in his priime.

    Had he stayed there, and not gone up to light heavy...it would have been an interesting conversation regarding the top slot.

    Had they fought five or six years earlier than their 2008 fight, it would have been a blockbuster...

    Agreed that Calzeghe is the clear top...and Jones somewhere in the 3-5 range...but the what ifs are fun to think about.

    I've never thought much of Calzeghe...perhaps out of ignorance...but ugly or not...I thought Hopkins won that fight...and should have gotten a rematch instead of that bullshit fight against a washed up Jones Jr.
    I'd pretty much agree with this, although I think Calzaghe's longevity trumps Jones's resume at 168lbs.

    Had they met at 168lbs in their primes, Jones wins all night. It wouldn't be a cake walk because Joe was fast and a real pressure fighter (the sort Roy never fought) but I think in RJJ we're talking about the best of the best. Speaking of careers that never reached their potential.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    There's probably something to that, but my friend is a trained fighter (so I tend to give his opinion some extra weight amongst the rest of the office dudes), and said now that he's watched the replays a few times (apparently all the rounds are already up on YouTube) he says he's never seen JMM fight in the wider stance he was in that night (he's a fan of both JMM and Manny), and that he appeared to be watching for Manny's right foot and intentionally jumping on it... even given that he says the only reason HE thinks it wasn't a draw was that PacMan came off like the aggressor for the majority of the fight...but also agrees it was close, and Manny never dominated Marquez at any point in the fight.
    I think that, as Pojo says, this has much more to do with a southpaw meeting an orthodox guy.

    If we're going to speak fairness, I'd say Pacman making a guy come up 2 weight divisions is stacking the deck somewhat. If I'd have been JMM I'd have been thumbing his eye and calling his mom a whore every time he came close!

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    I think that, as Pojo says, this has much more to do with a southpaw meeting an orthodox guy.

    If we're going to speak fairness, I'd say Pacman making a guy come up 2 weight divisions is stacking the deck somewhat. If I'd have been JMM I'd have been thumbing his eye and calling his mom a whore every time he came close!

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    And on that note, I've just noticed that this thread is nearing 25000 views!

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    Yep, we're all people of simple tastes here: CVH, having a good time, women, booze.... punching people in the face...

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    If i was JMM i would certainly fight Pacman again because he is not going to make a bigger payday. However, i would stipulate it by making the fight in Mexico City. If Pacman refuses then that pretty much tells you what the deal is. I haven't seen the buy rate yet for the PPV but i would imagine it did pretty well.
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    Chances are there'd at least be two more draws if not Manny defeats had those fights taken place in Mexico City. Check this out though - my buddy just sent me another email, this time with a video recap of all the foot-stomps... 17 total! Harder to chalk that up to conflicting styles alone...seems intentional, but again never thought of JMM as a "dirty" fighter...


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    I watched the replay of the fight. I had the fight scored with JMM winning by 1 round. To me the fight was fairly boring. Pac's shots were pitter patter compared to JMM. Ok, i get that Manny has good footwork and he was moving forward the entire fight but was it really effective aggression? I'm not sure. Also, there were about 3 rounds which i really had no idea who won. I scored one of them 10-10. I think this truly was a fight in which it is all in the eye of the beholder. I can't say that it was a bad decision but it just didn't feel right in my book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonrisa salvaje View Post
    I watched the replay of the fight. I had the fight scored with JMM winning by 1 round. To me the fight was fairly boring. Pac's shots were pitter patter compared to JMM. Ok, i get that Manny has good footwork and he was moving forward the entire fight but was it really effective aggression? I'm not sure. Also, there were about 3 rounds which i really had no idea who won. I scored one of them 10-10. I think this truly was a fight in which it is all in the eye of the beholder. I can't say that it was a bad decision but it just didn't feel right in my book.
    I watched it this weekend too, and had it a draw. Manny did not decisively beat him, I agree. Nor was his aggression effective for the most part - every time he advanced, Marquez caught him with something. I think it's funny that all this fight did was make pundits more likely to believe Mayweather will DESTROY Manny if they do indeed fight, as Marquez was still giving PacMan fits the whole night...Manny looked concerned he'd lost at the end, and 64% of HBO's audience polled thought he HAD...but it proved once again that Manny can't deal with dudes with effective counter-punching and defense - and Mayweather's is still the best in the game.

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    Given that Roach has said that 'Marquez deserves an immediate rematch' I think he's now very wary of a Mayweather fight. He also said 'I need to do my job better' in regard to teaching Manny how to deal with counter-punchers.

    I've always thought Mayweather has the edge in a Pacquiao fight. I can see Manny's southpaw style causing a few problems early on, and I doubt it'd be completely one-sided, but I imagine Floyd winning a wide UD. I'd like to see him push for a stoppage, but I imagine Floyd is too cautious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    Given that Roach has said that 'Marquez deserves an immediate rematch' I think he's now very wary of a Mayweather fight. He also said 'I need to do my job better' in regard to teaching Manny how to deal with counter-punchers.

    I've always thought Mayweather has the edge in a Pacquiao fight. I can see Manny's southpaw style causing a few problems early on, and I doubt it'd be completely one-sided, but I imagine Floyd winning a wide UD. I'd like to see him push for a stoppage, but I imagine Floyd is too cautious.
    I agree. Especially watching the replay the other night, it is difficult to imagine how Manny would be able to stay in a competitive fight with Floyd, let alone defeat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonrisa salvaje View Post
    I agree. Especially watching the replay the other night, it is difficult to imagine how Manny would be able to stay in a competitive fight with Floyd, let alone defeat him.
    He wouldn't - unless by some cosmic accident he managed to catch Floyd with something, which is highly unlikely. Better chance he hangs in for the first few rounds, then gets BADLY humilated - worse with every advancing round by Floyd, and loses the decision by a wide margin. It'd be interesting to see Floyd knock him the F out, but agree Floyd will probably be too cautious for that to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    He wouldn't - unless by some cosmic accident he managed to catch Floyd with something, which is highly unlikely. Better chance he hangs in for the first few rounds, then gets BADLY humilated - worse with every advancing round by Floyd, and loses the decision by a wide margin. It'd be interesting to see Floyd knock him the F out, but agree Floyd will probably be too cautious for that to happen.
    I'm not so sure. If Floyd were to get into a position to get Manny out of there i think he may press to do it in order to make a statement. After all, he really has nothing else to prove to anyone other than to Pacman, Manny's fans, and the press who think Manny is better. I feel like Floyd has been hearing about Manny for so long that he is the one fighter who Floyd would salivate over knocking out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonrisa salvaje View Post
    I'm not so sure. If Floyd were to get into a position to get Manny out of there i think he may press to do it in order to make a statement. After all, he really has nothing else to prove to anyone other than to Pacman, Manny's fans, and the press who think Manny is better. I feel like Floyd has been hearing about Manny for so long that he is the one fighter who Floyd would salivate over knocking out.
    You might be right...I expected him to just work over Ortiz for 12 rounds (or until Vic quit), but after the headbutt I think he was like "F this guy." and dropped him. Perhaps he will want to make a statement by kncoking Manny the F out...I'd love to see it. I still think it's telling that 64% of the HBO boxing audience - presumably with a heavy PacMan fan majority - thought Manny lost. He definitely didn't win convincingly by any stretch of the imagination. If anything betting seeing that motivates Floyd even more.

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    I think Floyd has too much respect for Pacquiao to push for a KO. If the opportunity presented itself he'd take it, for sure, but the plan would be a 12 round unpicking.

    I reckon we'll probably see Pac-Marquez IV first, to be honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    I think Floyd has too much respect for Pacquiao to push for a KO. If the opportunity presented itself he'd take it, for sure, but the plan would be a 12 round unpicking.

    I reckon we'll probably see Pac-Marquez IV first, to be honest.
    I don't think we will ever see it as long as Pac is with Bob Arum. Also, Bob Arum said that if the fight did happen the PPV price would be anywhere from $75 to $100. Now i love boxing and i would love to see this fight happen, but there is no way in hell i am going to pay that to watch it live. Never underestimate the promotors' ability to consistently screw the fans.

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    There are so many obstacles to the fight, and I think the notion of either guy fearing the other is the least of them:

    1) Floyd HATES Arum; and Arum HATES Floyd.

    2) The issue of 'the test' - it is my understanding that were he to give in to Floyd's demands of random testing, Pacman would pretty much have to all of his training in the US (which he doesn't normally do).

    3) Money. 50/50 will be a sticking point because of ego.

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    Cotto-Margarito II is hotting up.

    Despite the fact that they are both past their best (Cotto less so, I think) there is plenty to make this interesting: revenge/redemption (the former for Cotto, the latter for Margo); a question mark over Margo's eye-socket; and a question mark over the 'legitimacy' of his first win.

    Personally, I find it hard to believe that Margo had dodgy wraps in many of his fight before Mosely. Given that the other corner gets to witness hand-wrapping, it seems that there must a lot of very negligent 'top flight' trainers out there if Margo was packing something dodgy all of these years. I think Cotto just fought the wrong fight, retreating backwards (rather than circling) which allowed all of Margo's weight to go into those shots. Cotto has never been good defensively - it's not uncommon for his opponents to land 50% of their shots, which is high.

    However, I expect Cotto to move more this time and not be dragged into a war. He'll also target the eye socket. Skills wise he has the advantage, but I'm not sure he's ever looked all that convincing at 154, a weight that really, really suits Margo (who'll be nearing 170 on the night, I imagine).

    Could be another classic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    Cotto-Margarito II is hotting up.

    Despite the fact that they are both past their best (Cotto less so, I think) there is plenty to make this interesting: revenge/redemption (the former for Cotto, the latter for Margo); a question mark over Margo's eye-socket; and a question mark over the 'legitimacy' of his first win.

    Personally, I find it hard to believe that Margo had dodgy wraps in many of his fight before Mosely. Given that the other corner gets to witness hand-wrapping, it seems that there must a lot of very negligent 'top flight' trainers out there if Margo was packing something dodgy all of these years. I think Cotto just fought the wrong fight, retreating backwards (rather than circling) which allowed all of Margo's weight to go into those shots. Cotto has never been good defensively - it's not uncommon for his opponents to land 50% of their shots, which is high.

    However, I expect Cotto to move more this time and not be dragged into a war. He'll also target the eye socket. Skills wise he has the advantage, but I'm not sure he's ever looked all that convincing at 154, a weight that really, really suits Margo (who'll be nearing 170 on the night, I imagine).

    Could be another classic.
    I'm with you here. This is the fight i have been looking forward to and will likely buy on ppv. I like Margarito to KO Cotto again.

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    Just depends what either guy has left. Margo has endured some long layoffs, but Cotto has taken some big beatings.

    Alvarez Ko'd Cintron last night. Cintron's time near the top is over.

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    Anyone seen Tommy Gun Morrison, lately? He looks like he has full blown AIDS from all of the recent pictures I've seen of him.



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    Damn. Not so much a had been as a never was. Lots of power, But there was always something lacking in Tommy.

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    Cotto-Margo II tonight. Who ya got?

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    the doctor halted the fight after 9 rounds because of Margo's eye. Cotto boxed smart tonight, but it was really a fight between a guy who is on the slide and as guy who is shot.

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    any one catch the khan vs peterson fight ....people getting hot under the collar about dodgy decison , thought it was the lazy rounds that cost him it to be honest .
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    I didn't see it (rare for me).

    I'm hunting around for it at the moment, but from what I'm reading Khan started to gas and ran out of ideas, before fouling repeatedly.

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    Ok, I#ve seen it now.

    Khan fought the wrong fight: Peterson out-toughed him, went to the body well and exposed some huge defensive floors. It was a close run thing, and the points deductions Khan endured for pushing were BS. But then again, the knock down Peterson endured was BS too.

    Goldenboy can cry all day, but this was a close fight.

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    Yeah , maybe lazy was the wrong word maybe indisciplined suites how he fought better , khan is not the type to push or hold the head down and i agree the the point deductions were BS .
    Guess in the end you have to give credit to peterson .. tho maybe a draw would have been a fairer result .

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    I didn't have a problem with the decision though i thought Kahn edged it out. The referee was equally bad in all areas and negatively affected both fighters. I hate it when a good fight with world class fighters has a Bush league referee.

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