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Well, you've put me on the spot now!
I'd say it looks like this:
1) Ali
2) Jack Johnson
3) Holmes
If someone wanted to argue that Lennox Lewis deserves a spot up there, I wouldn't fight 'em to the death. Dull, certainly, but Lewis was very, very good.
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Dave's Bitch (06-21-2012),vandeleur (06-21-2012)
Now i was so ready to jump in on who ever was number 2 with "But what about Jack Johnson?!?!?!??!!?".That one get's a thank's because of the big ass smile on my face now
Always love when I see Johnson's name where it deserves as I am a huge fan,I get pretty tired of the conventional list of top heavy's.You guy's know the one I'm talking about
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The one i would like to have seen would be the young George Foreman against the prime Mike Tyson.
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On their day both these guys were un fightable ,the foreman who fought frasier would have given anyone a match and Tyson is a complex fighter to judge , his first few title defences he was incredible .. And technically better than he gets credit for ... The Tyson who was hypnotised by don king became a joke ... But both at their top were monsters
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In his prime, on his best nights....Evander
Not gonna argue. Just my favorite.
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I like your top two but I'd put Joe Frazier at number three. If Ali is #1, then Joe would have to be right up there with him based on the fact that they nearly fought to the death. That would kick Holmes down one notch.....or maybe two behind Foreman.
Lewis is not in the upper half of my ten, but surely he is in the lower half, the two guys (McCall and Rahman) who put his china on display were not top heavyweights.
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That's the one problem with Lewis - those two defeats. It was clear that they happened because he took those guys too lightly, but it counts against him.
He was a stinker to watch, but he was a hell of a fighter. He had everything - brilliant jab. excellent power, great combinations and - crucially - timing and movement. What we have to factor in is how BIG he was. Lewis dwarfs most of the other ATG heavies and can more than match them for speed. Take emotion out of it, and that means he is more than a match for most of them.
Oh, and Frazier would struggle to make my top 10. Love Smokin' Joe to death and he had many great moments in the ring, but take away the Ali fights and his career isn't all that stella. He was also small for a heavy - put him in with most of the other ATG and he had problems.
That being said, I'd watch him over most fighters in the drop of a hat.
You'd have to bet on Foreman. What makes me think that Tyson stands a good chance, however, is his speed and defence.
People underestimate those aspects of a prime Tyson - he was damn hard to hit. Also, he not only hit hard but he was fucking lightning fast and threw punches in bunches. Foreman would have had the edge in power, but he may have been swarmed.
The one I really want to see is Marciano-Frazier: two warriors of a similar size going at it. I can't think a better ATG match up.
Fuck it, why not?
My Top Ten heavies:
1) Ali
2) Jack Johnson (a genius of epic proportions)
3) Larry Holmes
4) Lennox Lewis
5) Joe Louis
6) Foreman
7) Tyson
8) Marciano
9) Sonny Liston
10) Gene Tuney
I've excluded the Klit brothers because they haven't retired yet. Dempsey was exciting and tough, but too crude to excel against the very best, IMO.
vandeleur (06-21-2012)
I hate top tens lol ... I've looked at yours and changed my mind a dozen times already, I struggle with the older era heavyweights ... I don't know them well enough though I am a fan of joe Louis and What he did for the sport .... Maybe we need a modern era top ten off you binnie
At what point are we defining 'modern era' as beginning?
Well that's a good question , we could have era's but I kinda meant Tunney , Johnson are hard to judge for me so I was thinking modern as Ali onwards ? Ones we have watched if that makes sense ... I might not be explaining myself very well
Last edited by vandeleur; 06-21-2012 at 07:03 PM.
Great list,I love top 10's .Mine would be something like
1)Ali
2)Jack Johnson
3)Joe Louis
4)Larry Holmes
5)George Foreman
6)Mike Tyson
7)Joe Frazier
8)Sonny Liston
9)Gene Tunney
10)Ezzard Charles
Ask me next week and it may very well be different.I had a serious debate over a few spot's,mainly 9 and 10 as I had 5 guys left but only 2 spots (and a top 13 would be stupid ).I feel honourable mentions should go to Dempsey,Marciano and Sam Langford
vandeleur (06-22-2012)
Ok, post 1960 Top Ten Heavies:
1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Lewis
4) Foreman
5) Tyson
6) Liston
7) Frazier
8) Holyfield
9) Floyd Patterson
10) Ken Norton
Once the Klit brothers retire they will mix that list up!
vandeleur (06-22-2012)
Against my better judgement , and with arguements that have more holes in them
Than a tramps vest
1.Ali
2.Holmes
3.Forman
4.Tyson
5.Holyfield
6.Lewis
7.Liston
8.Frasier
9.Norton
10a. Patterson ( but I wanna say bowe)
Last edited by vandeleur; 06-22-2012 at 05:38 AM.
There cannot be a top ten heavyweights without a young Tyson not in the top 3 but I can't stop thinking of foreman destroying Frazier and norton . Damn u champions forever video
Whilst working this out and going thru who beat who .. A quote my dad said kept coming to mind about boxing ... It was about when Lewis beat Tyson my dad said ... Son am 60 so is Ali I could murder him in a fight now , doesn't make me the greatest of all time .................
He always was a terrible cook your dad...
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vandeleur (06-22-2012)
Charles never weighed more than 200 pounds but he was a great heavyweight champion.He won the vacant belt by beating joe walcott and decisioned joe lewis to a win.Then his two epic battles with Rocky Marciano.He was also the only guy to take Marciano a full 15 rounds i believe.
I also wanted to include Joe Walcott somewhere.10 is not enough.i could maybe do a top 15
Man I struggled with 10 ... The combination of who I thought was better than who was bad enough with 10 - 15 would just have me sitting in the corner rocking
Last edited by vandeleur; 06-22-2012 at 09:19 AM.
Dave's Bitch (06-22-2012)
I would switch these two around myself.I have a hard time puttin Marciano in the top 10.His perfect record seems to gloss completely over the quality of his opponents.his most notable fights were Jersey Joe who was 37 and Ezzard Charles who was past his best,and both guys made a mess of him.Don Cockell had been fighting middleweights most of his career.Joe Louis was a shadow of himself and Archie Moore,well who the hell know's how old he was.I understand Rocky had tremendous heart and a hell of a punch but I think more is made of him than should be.I am not saying he was nothing special but the hero worship he get's is not due.To be honest i could see the argument for most boxer's listed here beating Marciano,As well as the otherwise listed Klit brothers and Dempsey.I would put Marciano in the top 15
*Wow does it come off like i hate Marciano.I don't hate him i just think he is a little overrated
Last edited by Dave's Bitch; 06-22-2012 at 09:50 AM.
Well, this comes down to whether you rank on achievements or ability. Are we talking 'Greatest' (achievements) or 'Best' (ability, or who would in a head to head match up). I tried to balance both.
Put it this way: The Klit brothers would probably beat most guys in our top 10 because they are so fecking big. 6'7" and 250lbs is a different ball park to 6'2'' and 220. Add into that there freakish power and Wladmir's speed of foot, and they are a nightmare. But are they the 'Greatest'? No - there just hasn't been the opposition around to earn that. Both of them beat the shit out of Marciano (who wouldn't have been a heavy today) or Walcot, or Frazier, or any of the other little guys. But they are not greater than them.
Marciano had freakish power and strength. And he never learned how to lose. Charles, Moore and Walcott are very good scalps, and he destroyed Walcot in the rematch.
It's the Tyson argument - it's not who you beat but how you beat 'em.
With boxing its a tough call ...
I aint an expert on the older era boxers ....am sure db is lying about her age to know all the stuff she does on the wrinklies
But we all except thats its fun but really impossible to compare boxers of differnet era's ... size , training techniques etc etc distort any conclusion.
Possibly the only judgement is achievement but is it better to reign like the klitchko bros were there digging up fat middle weights and reign for years ..or by champion for a short time in the golder era of the 70's ... you pay yout money you make your choice.
Certain boxers for me trancend the sport.
Ali .. stood as more than just a sports man .
Joe louis .. helped in a similar way to what ali did later on .. he effected attitude and culture of the day .
Boxing historically was a suspect if not bent sport thats main purpose was or main intrests were for people to gamble and was populated by thugs .. People like louis and others am sure made it more of a sport as we would see it.
Other boxers ...am thinking people like dempsy ... who wasnt that interested in boxing he just liked to fight people but he helped raise the popularity of boxing to then un seen hights.
All these guys are greats its just what part of their career appeals to you ..
am sure ive lost my train of thought. THough i do need to read up more on the older era fighters me thinks .
binnie (06-22-2012),Dave's Bitch (06-22-2012)
Manny Pacquiao wins WBO after defeat by Timothy Bradley
Manny Pacquiao has won a WBO review into his split-decision defeat by Timothy Bradley earlier this month.
On the night two judges scored the bout 115-113 in the American's favour, prompting boos around the MGM Grand.
The WBO has now met with five international judges to evaluate a video of the fight and they unanimously scored it in favour of Pacquiao.
The original result still stands as the WBO does not have to power to overturn it, but a rematch could be ordered.
It was a first defeat in seven years for Philippines fighter Pacquiao, who landed 94 more punches than Bradley.
Pacquiao is already guaranteed a rematch because of a clause in his contract.
According to Bob Arum, the promoter for both fighters, 33-year-old Pacquiao has indicated he would prefer the rematch over Bradley forfeiting the WBO welterweight title.
And so the hype train begins......
I just read alot of boxing book's and seen a lot of old footage.Boxing history is really interesting
I suggest you star with Jack Johnson.He was the first black heavyweight champ and a defensive master.The guy was Ali before Ali was.The best book i read on him is "Unforgivable Blackness:The rise and fall of Jack Johnson".Some of the stuff will make your head spin
vandeleur (06-22-2012)
I would suggest starting with Jack Johnson, too. I think he was genius - totally different from anyone who came before.
Then read up on Joe Louis - doing so will introduce you loads of other great fighters he fought like Max Schmeling, Jim Braddock and Max Baer (who is chronically underated).
vandeleur (06-22-2012)
I agree with you about Max Baer. I heard his son, who most people know played Jethro in the Beverly Hillbillys, in an interview a few years ago around the time the movie Cinderella Man came out. He was not happy about the way his father was portrayed in the movie. He said he understood Hollywood had to portray the champion as a bad guy to build up Braddock as the underdog but he thought they made Baer out to be a complete jerk which was not truthful. He said he was hurt by that. Just an interesting tidbit i thought i would pass on. Wait....did i really use the word tidbit? I guess i have to give up my man card.
Guys, a lot of you may know about boxrec.com but if you don't it is the easiest site to look up any fighter and view their records inclusive of an entire list of their fights in chronological order with dates and results. Each opponent's name is a link to go to their record as well.
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sonrisa salvaje (06-26-2012)
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