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Thread: Life Harder Now for Middle Class Than Ever?

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    Life Harder Now for Middle Class Than Ever?

    Life is harder now, experts say
    Generation gap: After paying the bills, middle-class pockets are emptier

    By Bob Sullivan
    Technology correspondent
    MSNBC
    Updated: 7:12 a.m. ET Oct 16, 2007

    Shopping malls are packed every weekend. Restaurants can't open fast enough. Everyone seems to be wearing designer shoes, jackets and jeans and sipping $4 lattes. Credit card commercials constantly advocate splurging and, it seems, U.S. consumers are all too ready to comply.

    So what's the problem? Why do so many middle class Americans with so much stuff say they feel so squeezed? If they are dogged by debt, isn’t it their own fault?

    Perhaps, some experts say, things are not as they appear.

    Bankruptcy law expert and Harvard University Professor Elizabeth Warren spent a lot of time crunching consumer spending numbers for her popular books, "The Fragile Middle Class” and “The Two-Income Trap.” In both, she makes this point: Despite all those $200 sneakers you hear about and the long lines at Starbucks, consumers are actually spending less of their income — much less — on discretionary items like clothing, entertainment and food than their parents did. In fact, after taking care of essentials like housing and health care, today’s middle class has about half as much spending money as their parents did in the early 1970s, Warren says.

    The basics, according to Warren, now take up close to three-fourths of every family's spending power (it was about 50 percent in 1973), leaving precious little left over at the end of the month — and leaving many families with no cushion in case of a job loss or health crisis.

    Warren's theories fly in the face of conventional wisdom and those crowded malls. But the premise is simple: Even though household incomes have risen about 75 percent from 1970, most of that is the result of a second earner — generally a woman — joining the work force. And that added income has been swallowed by rising fixed expenses, such as child care and housing costs, Warren argues. The average family pays at least twice as much for housing compared to its counterpart in the 1970s, Warren says, and in some competitive areas with good schools, housing costs have risen by as much as 600 percent.

    Without savings, at risk of job loss
    Now consider these factors: Four in 10 Americans don't have even one month's worth of savings for use in case of an emergency, according to a survey by HSBC Bank published in 2006. And with two incomes built into the family budget, the odds of a household getting hit by a layoff have doubled in the last generation. This combination — high housing debt, rising health care costs, lack of savings and greater exposure to unemployment — leaves many families in a precarious financial position.

    Yet before Warren can get policymakers to talk about the middle-class squeeze, or at least middle-class worry, she often finds she has to beat back the notion that overconsumption is to blame for the rise in consumer debt — and in middle-class anxiety.

    "A growing number of families are in terrible financial trouble, but no matter how many times the accusation is hurled, Prada and HBO are not the reason," Warren says in her book “The Two-Income Trap.”

    There is no arguing that most Americans have more gadgets in their living rooms and more clothes in their closets than ever before. Consider the explosion of the closet-organizer business.

    But government spending data paint a different picture. Take the often-cited evidence of culinary extravagance. While it's true that Americans are eating out much more than ever — nearly half of all dollars spent on food now go to dining out — overall food costs have plunged in recent decades. Americans now spent only about 10 percent of their money on food each year, compared to nearly 20 percent in the 1970s, according to data collected by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    And despite the designer brands they buy, the average family of four spends about 20 percent less on clothes today, according to Warren's analysis. Think about your last trip to Target: Thanks in part to the entry of inexpensive imported textiles from China and other trading partners, it's possible to buy a Friday night outfit for under $40. This shows up in BLS data too: On average, Americans spent nearly 7 percent of their money on clothes in 1973, compared to about 4 percent in 2005.

    Two weeks work for a fridge?
    In fact, many consumer goods are much cheaper than they were in the 1970s. A look at 1971 Sears catalog offers a glimpse of some plummeting prices. In 1971, a basic Sears refrigerator cost $399. Adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2,000 in 2005 dollars, or nearly 10 times the $297 price of a basic fridge in today’s Sears catalog. Put another way, a fridge costs more than two week’s work for an average earner in 1971, but less than two day’s labor today.

    Other household items were similarly expensive in 1971 — an 18-inch TV cost $429 (the equivalent of $2,150 today) and a 24-inch dishwasher cost $249 ($1,200 today).

    Lower prices are, of course, a boon for the middle class, which now enjoys many conveniences and luxuries that were formerly reserved for the well-to-do. This is the cornerstone point for those who argue that the middle-class squeeze is a myth.

    “I can’t hazard a guess as to why there is such a malaise in this country about current living conditions, but ... we have never had it better,” economist Arthur B. Laffer wrote in response to a question from a Gut Check America reader. Laffer is one of a large group of economists and policy-makers who point to crowded malls and high stock market returns as evidence that middle class America has little to complain about.

    But Amelia Warren Tyagi, co-author of “The Two-Income Trap,” and also Warren’s daughter, said weekend shopping trip receipts aren’t the best way to examine the state of the middle class.

    "Yes, people are spending more on home electronics, but the dollars just aren't that big," Tyagi said. "Maybe they spend a couple of hundred dollars more on stereo equipment. But they are spending less on tobacco. This is not to say that there's no frivolous spending going on, but as you add it all up, there's no more frivolous spending than there was a generation ago."

    The source of the anxiety
    With government data showing that Americans are spending much less than they did 35 years ago on clothes, food, and even entertainment, Tyagi says the anxiety they are feeling comes from somewhere else: the exploding costs of housing, health care and education.

    In housing, recent data is most striking. Household incomes have largely stagnated in recent years, even shrinking 2.8 percent from 2000 to 2006. Housing costs skyrocketed 32 percent in that time.

    Even more striking is the amount of income most families are paying to stay in their homes. Banks have long had a standard that said mortgages should not be approved unless the monthly payment was 25 percent or less of the buyer’s income. That limitation clearly is long gone. The U.S. Census Bureau defines “house poor” as spending more than 30 percent of income on housing expenses. In 1999, 26.7 percent of U.S. households were considered house poor. By 2006, the number had jumped to 34.5 percent.

    Because of difference in government data collection methods, it's hard to reach back to the 1970s for a precise comparison point. But the rise in house-poor mortgage holders is striking by any measure. A 1975 Census report showed that only 8.9 percent of mortgage holders spent 35 percent or more of their income — including insurance, property taxes, and utilities — on housing.

    The number of households spending half their income on housing — an amount that for most would be fiscal suicide — also has dramatically increased, from 10 percent in 2000 to 14 percent in 2006.

    The cost of education has similarly spiked. Pre-school was largely non-existent in the 1970s, but today many families pencil in $1,000 a month for child care and early childhood education. On the other end, college costs have easily outpaced the cost of inflation. For example, the average bill for attending a four-year public college rose 52 percent from 2001 to 2007.

    Health care costs have climbed steadily as well. According to the BLS, the average household spent 4.7 percent of its income on health care in 1984, and 5.7 percent in 2005.

    In the end, the portion of an average family’s budget spent on fixed costs like housing has risen much faster than wages and inflation, while spending on discretionary items has declined. That means mortgages, more than lattes, are the source of middle-class anxiety, says economist Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute, a generally liberal think tank that focuses on the interests of low- and middle-income Americans.

    ‘They feel squeezed because they are squeezed’
    "Consumers are asking, ‘If the economy is doing so well why am I feeling so squeezed?’” he said. “Well, they feel squeezed because they are squeezed."

    Identifying the source of the squeeze requires more than simply comparing overall inflation to overall wage growth, Bernstein said.

    "You have to look at a basket of key goods,” he said, like housing and college costs. “If you compare income growth to growth in prices of key goods, that stuff is growing 10 percent faster than income. ... Perhaps (consumers) are beating overall inflation but are they beating inflation in key components of their market basket? No."

    More to the point, Bernstein said, rising housing costs have quietly broken a social contract with consumers that promised that a good job with a good income would guarantee a good place to live. While that may have been true in the 1970s, it is often not true today, he said.

    "Lodged in the minds of those who come from the middle class is the idea that the middle class is a safe haven. It's not," he said.

    That notion is changing. People no longer feel certain they will be better off than their parents, for example. "What really messes with your economic mind is when your expectations and aspirations are violated, Bernstein said. “You think, my parents died in a much better home than they grew up in. Will I?"

    Generational trade-offs
    Bernstein is not as pessimistic as Tyagi in his interpretation of the data. A comparison of then vs. now needs to be a little more subtle, he said. Clearly, middle class Americans are better off in some ways: larger homes and availability of what were once luxury items, like air conditioning, for instance.

    “If a person is arguing that middle class families are worse off in every way, that person hasn't spent enough time at the mall,” he said. “But these are things you don't see at the mall: housing, health care, child care, saving and saving for college. The price of those (are) rising more quickly than inflation in general, rising more quickly than family income. And they are largely responsible for the squeeze that families report feeling."

    Middle-class squeeze skeptics often point to rising credit card debt as evidence that consumers have themselves, and their spending habits, to blame for any economic anxiety. But there’s a problem with that theory too — it’s an exaggeration, says Liz Pulliam Weston, author of “Deal With Your Debt” and an MSN Money columnist. The majority of American consumers carry no credit card debt from month to month and very few carry large balances, she notes.

    Last year, Americans held about $900 billion in credit card debt, leaving the average household with a bill of about $9,300, according to Federal Reserve data. That sounds like a lot, but a few consumers with very large debts can skew the average. The median balance is — the point at which half of consumers have more debt, and half have less — is a better indicator. The median credit card balance is $2,200, a fairly manageable amount. Only 8.3 percent of households owe more than $9,000 on their credit cards. Meanwhile, one-quarter of all Americans don’t even have credit cards, and another 30 percent pay them off in full every month.

    Notion of heavy credit card debt called overblown
    “Our national discussions about consumer indebtedness and bankruptcy are being distorted by the idea that we're waddling around with four- and five-figure credit card debts,” Weston wrote recently. “That makes us sound like spendthrifts, when that's not the norm."

    Nevertheless, overconsumption and excessive credit card spending persist as explanations for middle-class debt angst. Tyagi has a theory why.

    “Frivolous spending is visible, and it’s easy to pass judgment on, she said. “There is a comforting notion that if you are not spending wildly you are safe. If you are deeply invested in the belief that if everyone can solve their problems on their own, then there's no systematic problem, it would be important to think that if anyone is in trouble financially it’s because they did something stupid.”

    It might be something their parents would never have done, such as taking out a negative-amortization mortgage or taking out a $100,000 home equity loan to pay for a child’s college, or spend as much money on child care as food.

    But you can’t blame that on extravagant living, Warren said.

    “Perhaps the most important thing we can do is persuade people that it's not about the lattes,” she said. “I think the "latte factor" is a way to distract people from real changes in the economy. Those who shake their fingers over lattes can feel good about themselves, both for their own economic prosperity and for the fact that those who are in trouble are there because of their own personal failings.”

    © 2007 MSNBC Interactive

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    Ronnie started the assault on the middle-class, and it's been getting worse ever since.

    A strong middle-class threatens the Neo-Con agenda.
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    Originally posted by LoungeMachine
    Ronnie started the assault on the middle-class, and it's been getting worse ever since.

    A strong middle-class threatens the Neo-Con agenda.

    Can it not be said that the middle class is where the money comes from though?

    The middle class for the most part has set goals of where they want to be...and what they want out of life.
    You are less likely to give up...you just keep working to reach those goals.

    The reason I think that is for the most part my Provincial government has been far left...and they hammer the crap out of us in taxes.

    High corporate tax has kept many businesses from putting shop here...they go west or east where the incentives are higher.

    Us workers...for the most part do not move...we have our homes and families and keep plugging away.

    Only recently with the prospect of losing power they have started talking of benefits not tied to your income...and tax relief for every property tax payer.

    You are not going to get much out of lower income people...the state would only be taking back it's own money and cause more hardship.

    The rich...well...there is another topic in itself.
    Tax relief is always easier if you can afford to buy those loopholes or benefits.
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    Originally posted by WACF
    Can it not be said that the middle class is where the money comes from though?

    Indeed,

    But now it takes 2-3 jobs/incomes for a family of 4-5 to remain "middle-class"

    Too busy to see how screwed they are...

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    http://www.thomhartmann.com/screwed/author.htm



    BuzzFlash Reviews


    Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class -- And What We Can Do About It (Hardcover)
    Thom Hartmann




    Thom Hartmann is probably the most productive person we know.

    He's an accomplished author, Air America syndicated radio host, journalist, specialist in childhood psychological disorders, voracious reader, and just about the most knowledgeable person we have come across while publishing BuzzFlash.

    Somehow, he even manages to squeeze in a monthly book review for the Buzz, Thom Hartmann's "Independent Thinker Book of the Month."

    And he has three children and a wife, who works with him.

    So, how does he keep finding the time to author terrific books, with fascinating insights?

    We don't know, but we're sure thankful that Thom is drinking his V-8 Juice, because "Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class" is another impassioned, enlightened look at American society, this time focusing on the shrinking middle class.

    While the radical GOP extremists have been diverting the attention of America's middle class with demagogic, divisive emotional "values" issues, the Republican Party has been picking their pockets, reducing their opportunies, and dismantling their support systems.

    As the book illustrates, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle calss is getting screwed.

    Hartmann always grounds his contemporary analysis in the context of the origins of our nation, our Constitution, and revolutionary history.

    Do people or profits come first in our society?

    Are we a nation that is interested in advancing the public good and interest of the many? Or are we an oligarchy, in which the many must sacrifice their futures for the benefit of a privileged few?

    The latter sounds a lot like a monarchy, doesn't it?

    And wasn't the American Revolution a result of the rule of an unjust, tyrannical monarchy?


    From the Publisher:

    "The American middle class is on its deathbed. Ordinary folks who put in a solid day's work can no longer afford to buy a house, send their kids to college, or even get sick. If you're not a CEO, you're probably screwed.

    America wasn't meant to be like this. Air America Radio host Thom Hartmann shows that our Founding Fathers worked hard to ensure that a small group of wealthy people would never dominate this country--they'd had enough of aristocracy. They put policies in place to ensure a thriving middle class. When the middle class took a hit, beginning in the post-Civil War Gilded Age and culminating in the Great Depression, democracy-loving leaders like Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, and Dwight Eisenhower revitalized it through initiatives like antitrust regulations, fair labor laws, the minimum wage, Social Security, and Medicare.

    So what happened? In the last twenty-five years, we've witnessed an undeclared war against the middle class. The so-called conservatives waging this war are only interested in conserving--and steadily increasing--their own wealth and power. Hartmann shows how, under the guise of "freeing" the market, they've systematically dismantled the programs set up by Republicans and Democrats to protect the middle class and have installed policies that favor the superrich and corporations.

    But it's not too late to return to the America our Founders envisioned. Hartmann outlines a series of commonsense proposals that will ensure that our public institutions are not turned into private fiefdoms and that people's basic needs--education, health care, a living wage--are met in a way that allows the middle class to expand, not shrink.

    America will be stronger with a growing, prospering middle class--rule by the rich will only make it weaker. Democracy requires a fair playing field, and it will survive only if We the People stand up, speak out, and reclaim our democratic birthright."

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    Originally posted by LoungeMachine
    Indeed,

    But now it takes 2-3 jobs/incomes for a family of 4-5 to remain "middle-class"

    Too busy to see how screwed they are...

    That is a fact...

    It takes a dual income family to provide the same as a single income did in the '50s.

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    Screwed: Hartmann on the War Against the Middle Class
    Published September 3rd, 2006 in Articles

    An excerpt from Air America Radio’s Thom Hartmann’s new book, “Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class — And What We Can Do About It

    Labor goes back a long way in U.S. history. In 1874 unemployed workers were demonstrating in New York City’s Tompkins Square Park. Riot police moved in and began beating men, women, and children with billy clubs, leaving hundreds of casualties in their wake. The police commissioner said: “It was the most glorious sight I ever saw.”

    Three years later, on June 18, 1877, ten coal-mining activists were hanged. That same year a general strike in Chicago — called the Battle of the Viaduct — halted the movement of U.S. railroads across the states. Federal troops were called up, and they killed thirty workers and wounded more than a hundred.
    In September 1882 thirty thousand workers marched in the first-ever Labor Day in New York history. In 1884 the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions was established, and it passed a resolution stating that eight hours should constitute a legal day’s work. Hundreds of thousands of American workers began following that rule.

    In May 1, 1886, the Knights of Labor took to the streets to call for an eight-hour day. Eighty thousand workers shut down the city of Chicago. On May 4 three thousand workers gathered in Haymarket Square. A bomb was thrown that killed seven policemen. Eight of the people present were rounded up, tried for murder, and sentenced to death. The Haymarket riot became the symbol of labor injustice in America.
    This is but a fragment of the history of the labor movement in the United States.

    Matters improved when labor got organized — but not much. In fact, by the 1920s things looked a lot like they do today: the robber barons were in charge, and the situation for working people was bleak. The rich were incredibly rich, and the few middle-class workers were deeply in debt. The labor movement appeared virtually dead.
    It took the Republican Great Depression to wake people up. It took Franklin D. Roosevelt to speak the truth. If a politician said the same things today that Roosevelt did in the 1930s — openly accusing big business of being anti-American and antiworker — he’d be accused of socialism and communism. Very few national figures have the courage to speak out today the way FDR did back then.
    Roosevelt provided courageous leadership. In his first term, he had sent to Congress the National Industrial Recovery Act, which set standards for wages and working hours and established the right of laborers to organize. This set the stage for labor groups to bargain for wages and conditions. Thanks in large part to FDR’s work on behalf of labor, in the twenty-five years after World War II the real incomes of the middle class doubled.

    Why We Need a Labor Movement Today

    Today America is regressing. Middle-class income has stopped growing. The net worth of those who earn less than $150,000 per year (which includes everybody from the working poor to the highest end of the most well-off of the middle class) is down by 0.6 percent.
    The problem isn’t the economy. Corporations are making more money than ever. The real income of people whose net worth exceeds $100 million is doubling.
    What’s happening is simple: the rich are getting richer and the entire spectrum of the middle class is disappearing.
    We can easily trace this decline to Reagan’s first public declaration of war on the middle class when he went after the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) in 1981. He broke the back of the air-traffic controllers’ union and began the practice of using the Department of Labor — traditionally the ally of workers — against organized labor and working people.
    Reagan liked to say he was against “big government.” What he really meant was that he was against Roosevelt’s New Deal. He was against Social Security, the minimum wage, free college education (he ended that in California as its governor), and programs like the WPA. He believed in the discredited concept of “trickle-down” economics — the theory that if you create a corporatocracy, the rich will nobly spend some of their money to help the rest of us.
    The American people don’t need handouts. Our workers just want to be paid a living wage for a fair day’s work. We can’t count on the corporatocracy to give us what we earn, so we need a strong labor movement to give us the power to negotiate our wages and benefits.
    Ultimately, it’s all about power.
    Workplaces are not democracies — in the United States they’re run more like kingdoms. Employers have the power to hire and fire, to raise or lower wages, to change working conditions and job responsibilities, and to change hours and times and places. Workers have only the power to work or to not work (known as a strike).

    The strike — a tool that can effectively be used only by organized labor — is the only means by which workers can address the extreme imbalance of power in the workplace. And because organized labor is a democracy — leadership is elected and strike decisions and contracts are voted on — unions bring more democracy to America. We spend about half our waking lives at work — at least we can have some democracy in the workplace; and a democracy means a strong middle class.

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    ...I'll have to take a listen to Thom Hartman on XM...

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    The man is brilliant, and the war on the middle-class is one of his favorite subjects....

    *dont mean to hijack your thread D*

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    The only way the government can affect this is by lowering taxes.
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    Originally posted by WACF
    That is a fact...

    It takes a dual income family to provide the same as a single income did in the '50s.
    Too bad my soon to be ex-wife never paid any of the bills!
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    Originally posted by scamper
    The only way the government can affect this is by lowering taxes.
    And by not taking corporate payoffs to vote against the interests of the middle class. But then, many in the middle class vote against their own interests...

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    Originally posted by jharp84
    Too bad my soon to be ex-wife never paid any of the bills!

    Ouch...

    I feel for ya....I've been there.

    Don't let it get to you.

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    Thanks bro! Didn't mean it to be a bitch session! I've done that way too often here! Just being sarcastic! Ya know - I've seen the light! The Brown light(whiskey) and the white light(vodka)! Anyway! Goin to see my band tonight! Only took 22 years! I have learned patience!

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    And by not taking corporate payoffs to vote against the interests of the middle class. But then, many in the middle class vote against their own interests...
    Are there any caps on how much any corporation can "donate" to any of your parties?

    Whether it be a donation to the party or a donation to a running candidate.

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    Originally posted by jharp84
    Thanks bro! Didn't mean it to be a bitch session! I've done that way too often here! Just being sarcastic! Ya know - I've seen the light! The Brown light(whiskey) and the white light(vodka)! Anyway! Goin to see my band tonight! Only took 22 years! I have learned patience!



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    Originally posted by scamper
    The only way the government can affect this is by lowering taxes.
    Bingo!
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    Originally posted by scamper
    The only way the government can affect this is by lowering taxes.

    Originally posted by WAR
    Bingo!

    It is a bit bigger than that though.

    A government can cut taxes...but it also has to put it's spending in check.

    What are you(we) as a tax payer paying for.

    Is the budget balanced...or is there a deficit.

    Until the government controls it's spending you will not see a tax cut...unless it raises corportate taxes or cuts services...
    Last edited by WACF; 10-16-2007 at 03:55 PM.

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    I'm all for smaller government, cutting bloated programs and entitlements.

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    Originally posted by WAR
    I'm all for smaller government, cutting bloated programs and entitlements.
    Yep

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    Originally posted by scamper
    The only way the government can affect this is by lowering taxes.
    ....on the middle class, while also making the rich actually PAY theirs for once, by eliminating the ridiculous loopholes in the tax code.

    The fact is that the rich, for the most part, pay very little or no tax at all, which forces the tax burden on to the middle class.

    It ain't Halliburton, Exxon, or Blackwater that are paying for this clusterfuck of a war, but they're the ones pocketing the money from it.
    Last edited by FORD; 10-16-2007 at 05:37 PM.
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    Originally posted by FORD
    ....
    It ain't Halliburton, Exxon, or Blackwater that are paying for this clusterfuck of a war, but they're the ones pocketing the money from it.
    Especially when they're allowed to move their corporate offices to FUCKING DUBAI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

    But I'm sure WAR sees nothjing wrong with war profiteers moving to Dubai to avoid taxes.

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    Our former PM had his shipping companies head office in the Bahamas to avoid paying tax to his own country.

    Things need to change...

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    Originally posted by LoungeMachine
    Especially when they're allowed to move their corporate offices to FUCKING DUBAI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

    But I'm sure WAR sees nothjing wrong with war profiteers moving to Dubai to avoid taxes.
    The reason businesses move out of our country is because of our own government and it's ridiculous regulations.

    Cut back on government, and the businesses stay here.

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    Originally posted by WAR
    The reason businesses move out of our country is because of our own government and it's ridiculous regulations.

    Cut back on government, and the businesses stay here.
    What a crock of utter bullshit.

    Halliburton moved to Dubai over "ridiculous regulations" ???????

    Just how stupid and/or Limbaughed are you these days?

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    Originally posted by WAR
    The reason businesses move out of our country is because of our own government and it's ridiculous regulations.

    Cut back on government, and the businesses stay here.
    LOL And thus, the arch-Conservative arguments take hold, and get the suckers to vote against there economic interests...

    And corporations are allowed to exploit loopholes US tax laws and yet still use the infrastructure which they need to survive. This all while hoisting ever more benefits onto the individual while driving up health care costs, retirement, and America is thrust ever forward to a polarized plutocracy..

    And the whole "tax cut" stuff is a crock of shit. The federal gov't merely has increasingly shifted the tax burden onto states, but yet, spending and deficits still skyrocket...

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    Let's suppose the federal government actually eliminated ALL taxes and shifted them on to the states.

    How would Chimpy's war machine be funded??

    And how would most of the red states, which have no significant income of their own survive?

    Microsoft, Starfucks, and Boeing would keep my state alive.

    What's going to keep Dumbfuckistan running??

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    It's called wages haven't kept up with inflation. One reason the middle class has borrowed so much money from the banks. Now the Bilderberg own them.

    When the central bank can create wealth from nothing and then charge intrest on it, it's the begining of the end for all except the insiders who run the central banking system. It's the main reason a sound currency is backed by a commodity like gold and/or silver. The banks have to aquire the commodity to print notes. The wealth has to be there. Now all they have to do, is print more notes creating trillions of dollars of wealth that is actually worthless.

    The central bankers then take this printed wealth and buy real estate, politicians, raw resource production, factories, agrucultural land, then they create a deppression and ruin everybody after they have cashed out and then they buy more cheap.

    One reason Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln kicked the Rothchild bankers out of the US. They are were smarter in those days.
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    Originally posted by Nitro Express

    One reason Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln kicked the Rothchild bankers out of the US. They are were smarter in those days.
    How did they miss the Rockefellers?? Or was Standard Oil not that big yet?

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    Originally posted by FORD
    How did they miss the Rockefellers?? Or was Standard Oil not that big yet?
    Exactly. The Rockefellers came later. Central banking as we know it today started with the Rothchilds in Germany and they are still the largest banking family in the world today. The Rockefellers are the Rothchilds of North America and both families are who started Bilderberg in 1954 in the Bilderberg Hotel.

    The Rothchilds in the latter part of the 18th century found it was more profitable to loan money to monarchys and dictatorships. They would play govts. off of each other. One thing they loved doing is starting a war and then offering govts. financing to pay for the war. Once the govt. was broke from the war, they would take their profits and buy cheap.

    The Rothchilds were given a 20 year charter in the US in the late 1700's. It was not renewed and the Rothchilds were kicked out of the US. They used their influence with the British to start the war of 1812.

    The Rothchilds after the war again set up banking in the US. Andrew Jackson did not like the way they did business and kicked them out.

    The Rothchilds approached Abraham Lincoln about finanacing the civil war. He told them to go to hell and financed the war with gold out of California, Nevada, and Idaho instead. Lincon once said he was hated by the central bankers more than the southern states.

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