US Debt at Record $9 Trillion

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Blackflag
Well, that was long. Let me ask the question again: "please tell me how the current debt is the fault of Reagan and Bush Sr. (but not Clinton, of course!) when their debt has already been retired?"

Fuck you're stupid sometimes.

Either that or Nick is right, and you just troll for fights for the sake of argument.

BushCO has followed the legacy of Reagan and Bush the Elder of destroying the middle class for the benefit of the Uber wealthy 2%, at the expense of the economy.

Don't be such a fucking douche all the time. You damn good and well they're all playing with the same loaded deck.


And shove your strawman "you're all Democratic Sheep" argument up your ass while you're at it.

We've all been 500# shithammers on them as well since last November.


I once thought you might bring soemthing to the forum, but I'm begining to see what Nick was talking about.

I've also noticed that you never actually make any comments on your own, but rather just critique other's.

You're the guy who brings the chick to the gig, stands in the back, and tells her how much better you used to play that solo back in the day.


But thanks for the breaking newsflash that the whole system is fucked, and that neither Party is making a difference at the moment.

We hadn't noticed.

You obviously have been oblivious to who's actually been in CONTROL of DC the last 19 of 27 years.



But then what does it really matter? If by posting my threads on here I'm doing nothing, then you commenting and critiquing them is doing less than nothing.

So on the great politico online curve, I've managed to beat the Mr. Pibb whore from Yakima.

Wouldn't my parents have been proud.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Blackflag
"Well Done Republicans..."

I wonder when people will wise up and stop the 'my team is the good guys' bullshit? Until then, there will never be any accountability.

Could you provide the quote where I claimed the Dems are the good guys, and that I haven't held them accountable.

I'll be in the bar.

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


Fuck you're stupid sometimes.

So now instead of answering the question, we've devolved into simple namecalling. What does that tell you about how well thought out your positions are?

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
BushCO has followed the legacy of Reagan and Bush the Elder of destroying the middle class for the benefit of the Uber wealthy 2%, at the expense of the economy.

You said the current $9T is the fault of Reagan and Bush Sr. Was that just more blowhard bullshit, or do you have a point? Because "they're all the same kind of bad guy" doesn't really support your statement, do you think?

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
And shove your strawman "you're all Democratic Sheep" argument up your ass while you're at it.

I know you're in love with the "strawman argument" concept. But at least use the fucking term properly, ok? Please? For me?

A strawman arguement is one in which a peson proposes a hypothetical to prove you wrong, but the scenario isn't analogous to the issue you're discussing.

Calling somebody a sheep is not an argument, it's an insult. Clear? And do you think somebody who says, "Something the the Democrats are trying to stop, or at least, reduce significantly..." is anything other than a sheep?

Originally posted by LoungeMachine

I once thought you might bring soemthing to the forum, but I'm begining to see what Nick was talking about.

Boo hoo. Somebody called me on my statement and I didn't have a good response. Sound like anybody else? War?

This, my friend, is letting off steam. Do something productive and stressful with your day and you'll understand what the term means.

Until then, you can just cry and throw insults when you don't like what people say...but you know just as well as I do what that makes you...

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Could you provide the quote where I claimed the Dems are the good guys, and that I haven't held them accountable.

I'll be in the bar.

Demcrats vote in the budget. You say the republicans are to blame. Is that accountability? Save that logic for the teenagers on here in awe of you.

And just to clarify for you: "provide the quote" is a strawman argument. "YOU are a sheep" is not.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Blackflag
Demcrats vote in the budget. You say the republicans are to blame. Is that accountability? Save that logic for the teenagers on here in awe of you.

And just to clarify for you: "provide the quote" is a strawman argument. "YOU are a sheep" is not.

Who had complete control of the gov't (executive and legislative) from 2001 to 2006?

What options does the minority party have? To paralyze gov't?

[Steve Savicki]

Wonder if it's time to increase the taxes for big businesses now.

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Who had complete control of the gov't (executive and legislative) from 2001 to 2006?

What options does the minority party have? To paralyze gov't?

In 2003, the budget was split 50-50, with democrats voting for the budget.

I'm not saying what the minority party should be doing...I'm saying what the minority is doing: the same as the republican party. There is no 'minority' party. If there were, 2007 would be a different story - using your logic. But nothing changed, did it?

Whatever, man. You guys are too hard core to discuss with. If you say something in disagreement, it ends up in namecalling...like angry retards who don't know what they're pissed off about.

p.s. Steve Savicki is my idol.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Blackflag
In 2003, the budget was split 50-50, with democrats voting for the budget.

A budget that was largely imposed on them by the elected majority. Any real legislation proposed by Democrats was squashed with an almost unprecedented "in your face bitch!" attitude by the Republicans whilst there own bills were thrust onto the floor, with token pork handouts to insure Democratic votes...

It's not about statistics of how many voted, it's about the nuances of the whole process....

They made deals to get the best deals they could get.

But who was sponsoring these bills?

I'm not saying what the minority party should be doing...I'm saying what the minority is doing: the same as the republican party. There is no 'minority' party. If there were, 2007 would be a different story - using your logic. But nothing changed, did it?

Wow. What massive oversimplifications. Should I expect anything more from you?

No minority party? Orelly?

So, both "democrats" and "republicans" split the Houses 50-50?

So, things with the "do-nothing" Republican congress that challenged nothing that Bush ever did and completely shut out "democrats" from legislative sessions and marginalized them to an extent that was so bitter, petty and personal - it was reminiscent of an earlier, less civilized age, would be the same if Democrats would be in charge?

I guess you haven't really read a fucking newspaper in years...

But then, you'd have to avoid "facts" like the GOP Congressmen (as the "party of fiscal responsibility") under Gingrich were the ones that made the fiscal "contract with Amerika," in which they've violated nearly every supposed sacred tenet of since 1996, despite their ludicrous grandstanding...

Whatever, man. You guys are too hard core to discuss with. If you say something in disagreement, it ends up in namecalling...like angry retards who don't know what they're pissed off about.

p.s. Steve Savicki is my idol.

"Name-calling...angry retards?"

Wow, is this a troll or are you always so, hypocritical, self-contradicting and nullifying? it's almost like a Bush-conservative talking about fiscal responsibility...

The "problem" is that you're making over-generalizations that have little bearing in truth.

I'll agree that going Democrats is hardly the panacea of all our problems, or that they are blameless. Nor do I advocate mindless partisan balloting. But I don't think one can have lived through eight years of Clinton and then eight years of the monkey-asshat we have now and claim it was "the same."

The party that controls congress and the White House is the one that holds the agenda. It's about emphasis and direction of the leadership. The Republicans are a clear fail here for the past six-to-sixteen years, from taking the congress in the 90s to handing the White House to the anointed one. The Republicans are the party espousing supposed "fiscal responsibility," and morality, and have shown themselves to be inept hypocrites on both counts.

Here's a refresher for you in case you missed it:

"The Worst Congress Ever"

Here's an extract:

But the 109th Congress is no mild departure from the norm, no slight deviation in an already-underwhelming history. No, this is nothing less than a historic shift in how our democracy is run. The Republicans who control this Congress are revolutionaries, and they have brought their revolutionary vision for the House and Senate quite unpleasantly to fruition. In the past six years they have castrated the political minority, abdicated their oversight responsibilities mandated by the Constitution, enacted a conscious policy of massive borrowing and unrestrained spending, and installed a host of semipermanent mechanisms for transferring legislative power to commercial interests. They aimed far lower than any other Congress has ever aimed, and they nailed their target.

"The 109th Congress is so bad that it makes you wonder if democracy is a failed experiment," says Jonathan Turley, a noted constitutional scholar and the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington Law School. "I think that if the Framers went to Capitol Hill today, it would shake their confidence in the system they created. Congress has become an exercise of raw power with no principles -- and in that environment corruption has flourished. The Republicans in Congress decided from the outset that their future would be inextricably tied to George Bush and his policies. It has become this sad session of members sitting down and drinking Kool-Aid delivered by Karl Rove. Congress became a mere extension of the White House."

The end result is a Congress that has hijacked the national treasury, frantically ceded power to the executive, and sold off the federal government in a private auction. It all happened before our very eyes. In case you missed it, here's how they did it -- in five easy steps:

[Blackflag]

Your whole post ignores the bald facts ("oversimplified") and struggles to read between the lines so that you can continue to have faith in your "party." Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

Tell me - why does the democratic congress continue to spend billions on Iraq? Why have they taken no steps to draw down the troops? Why have they done - well, nothing?

To answer Lounge's point earlier about destroying the middle class, I ask: who proposed nafta? Who signed it into law? This is one group acting together to accomplish a single agenda.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Blackflag
Your whole post ignores the bald facts ("oversimplified") and struggles to read between the lines so that you can continue to have faith in your "party." Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

Really? What's my "party?"

"Bald facts?" Like you ignore my entire post?

Tell me - why does the democratic congress continue to spend billions on Iraq? Why have they taken no steps to draw down the troops? Why have they done - well, nothing?

Oh I don't know - because their majority isn't big enough to meet the threashhold to override neither the Republican minority or the Presidential veto...

Do I really have to explain that to you?

And they haven't "taken steps?" They've in fact sponsored many of the bills doing exactly that, but have failed to pass or they've been vetoed...

To answer Lounge's point earlier about destroying the middle class, I ask: who proposed nafta? Who signed it into law? This is one group acting together to accomplish a single agenda.

NAFTA wasn't just Clinton's baby. He was facing a Republican majority in congress. If he had shot down NAFTA, he would have looked like the anti-business liberal...

In any case, we're talking about today's recent Congress, are we not?

[Redballjets88]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
What do you mean?

Foreign Aid? Loans?

loans etc... not forgein aid, although we did totally fund the rebuilding of europe after WW2, maybe we can go back on our word.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Blackflag
So now instead of answering the question, we've devolved into simple namecalling. What does that tell you about how well thought out your positions are?



You said the current $9T is the fault of Reagan and Bush Sr. Was that just more blowhard bullshit, or do you have a point? Because "they're all the same kind of bad guy" doesn't really support your statement, do you think?






I know you're in love with the "strawman argument" concept. But at least use the fucking term properly, ok? Please? For me?

A strawman arguement is one in which a peson proposes a hypothetical to prove you wrong, but the scenario isn't analogous to the issue you're discussing.

Calling somebody a sheep is not an argument, it's an insult. Clear? And do you think somebody who says, "Something the the Democrats are trying to stop, or at least, reduce significantly..." is anything other than a sheep?




Boo hoo. Somebody called me on my statement and I didn't have a good response. Sound like anybody else? War?

This, my friend, is letting off steam. Do something productive and stressful with your day and you'll understand what the term means.

Until then, you can just cry and throw insults when you don't like what people say...but you know just as well as I do what that makes you...

LMAO

Pot? Kettle.


And you do use strawman all the time. You will posit that that I hold dems blameless, and defend and support them, so that you can bloviate about how they're one in the same...


All the while ignore my countless posts/threads calling out the dems.

My "well done republicans" subtext is my opinion that the Republican party/mindset of Reagen "voodoo economics", and the spending of the Republican controlled Congress has made a mockery of today's Republicn "conservatives"

This dogma and mindset has allowed King George to reign over the nighmares we're facing now.

Don't agree? Fine. Make your case. But your only goals are to pick fights with Nick or myself. That's why you seldom bother to reply to anyone else's posts. You certainly don't bring your own takes to the table.

I stand by my statements, and like I said I'm begining to see where Nick was coming from. I misjudged you. I thought you were actually going to bring something to the table.

But hey, every form of entertainment needs critics. Knock yourself out.

I look forward to some brilliant insights and solutions we mortals have yet to see. I know you've just been sandbagging, and warming up by trolling Nick and myself.

But before you try and claim we're taking this shit seriously, or thinking it matters in the real world, or are shilling for the Dems, do your research. Or not.

But if your argument is that the Dems are somehow just as guilty as the Big Government / Privitize the Military / Cut Taxes in War Time Republican Party....... welp, you're nuts.

And for the record, I'm anti-nafta. Like it matters.

[LoungeMachine]

THE DESTABILIZING FOREIGN POLICIES OF BUSHCO ARE ABOUT TO COME HOME TO ROOST.

Under BushCO fuel prices more than triple....








$100 Oil May Mean Recession as U.S. Economy Hits `Danger Zone'

By Simon Kennedy and Joe Richter

Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Rising fuel prices that businesses and consumers took in stride earlier this year may now be near the point of pushing the weakened U.S. economy into recession.

``We are in a danger zone,'' says Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at Global Insight Inc. and a former Federal Reserve economist. ``It would take two shocks to bring the economy to its knees. We got one shock in the form of the credit crunch. Oil could be that second shock.''

Crude-oil prices are poised to cross the $100-a-barrel mark while the U.S. economy is still reeling from a surge in corporate borrowing costs. Europe and Japan are vulnerable as well, after the U.S. subprime-mortgage collapse contaminated their credit markets.

Even before the latest jump in energy costs, economists expected U.S. growth to slow to less than 2 percent in the fourth quarter -- half the third quarter's pace. Andrew Cates, an economist at UBS AG in London, said his models suggest a 45 percent chance of a U.S. recession next year, up from 33 percent last month, as oil prices prove a ``growing concern.''

Japan risks its fourth recession since the early 1990s, with its index of leading economic indicators falling to zero for the first time in a decade. The European Commission last week cut its 2008 growth forecast for the 13 nations that share the euro to 2.2 percent from 2.5 percent, partly because of costlier crude. The economy grew 2.8 percent last year.

Energy Efficiency

The world economy may still dodge recession as emerging markets continue to expand. A report last week by Deutsche Bank AG said gains in energy efficiency mean the effect of more expensive oil will ``remain muted.''

Even so, gloom is spreading at a speed that suggests ``we're walking a really fine line,'' says John Silvia, chief economist at Wachovia Corp. in Charlotte, North Carolina. ``Even a month ago, you probably wouldn't have thought we'd be seeing a sustained credit problem and oil holding up above $85 a barrel.''

Crude oil traded at a record $98.62 last week on the New York Mercantile Exchange and ended the week at $96.32, bringing its increase this year to 58 percent. Prices adjusted for inflation exceed the previous record, set in 1981 when Iran cut exports.

The dilemma for central banks is how to balance oil's drag on their economies against the risk of higher inflation. Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke told Congress Nov. 8 that oil prices threaten both ``renewed upward pressure'' on inflation and ``further restraint on growth.''

Accelerating Inflation

Such concerns prompted the European Central Bank to keep interest rates on hold last week, and President Jean-Claude Trichet said he still sees a danger that inflation will accelerate.

Clayton Jones, chief executive officer at Rockwell Collins Inc., says central bankers should err on the side of supporting growth. Jones, whose Cedar Rapids, Iowa-based company makes aircraft-cockpit instruments, said in an interview that he's ``much more worried about recessionary impacts rather than inflationary impacts.''

Manufacturers are among the first to feel the pinch: Rising energy prices are increasing their costs while drooping consumer and business confidence erodes demand.

In the U.S., the Institute for Supply Management's manufacturing index fell to a seven-month low in October as gauges of orders and production declined.

Lower Profits

Peoria, Illinois-based Caterpillar Inc., the world's biggest maker of bulldozers and excavators, cut its profit forecast on Oct. 19 and said the economy would be ``near to, or even in, recession'' in 2008.

The pain doesn't stop there. Rising jet-fuel prices are forcing airlines to curtail expansion plans. Chicago-based UAL Corp.'s United Airlines said it may cut capacity in 2008 to make up for higher fuel costs. Cologne-based Deutsche Lufthansa AG is raising fuel surcharges on long-haul flights.

Dallas-based Southwest Airlines Co. is ``reconsidering our growth rate for next year,'' because of ``very significant'' cost increases, Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly said Nov. 7.

Meanwhile, U.S. shoppers, who helped propel most of the current expansion, may cut back as gasoline and home-heating costs rise. Retail-sales growth from November through January may be the slowest since 2002, consultant Ernst & Young estimates. Consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of the U.S. economy.

`A Huge, Real Shock'

Fuel costs are ``a huge, real shock'' to consumers, says Nouriel Roubini, chairman of Roubini Global Economics LLC and a professor at New York University. ``High oil prices are going to remain with us until we go into a recession.''

Europe's manufacturers are contending not only with increased energy costs but also the euro's rise to a record against the dollar, which is hobbling exports.

An index of manufacturing growth in Europe dropped to the lowest level in more than two years in October, and confidence among executives in Germany fell to a 20-month low.

Morgan Stanley's model of activity in the euro zone is now flashing the ``risk of manufacturing recession,'' according to Chief European Economist Eric Chaney, a former official at the French ministry of finance. He says the area's economy may run close to its ``stall speed'' of about 1 percent in the first quarter, and ``oil is not making things easier.''

Biggest Decline

Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG, the world's largest maker of printing machines, last week reported its quarterly profit dropped by almost half, triggering the biggest decline in its shares since 2004. ``Energy and raw-material costs have made life difficult,'' says Dirk Kaliebe, chief financial officer of the Heidelberg, Germany-based company.

The pain extends to China and India as governments pare energy subsidies, putting more of the burden on companies and consumers. China increased fuel prices by as much as 10 percent Nov. 1, and India may follow as soon as this week.

``The stage is set for a significant slowdown in global manufacturing,'' says Joseph Lupton, a former Fed economist now at JPMorgan Chase & Co., which predicts industrial-production growth worldwide will decelerate by more than half before the end of this year, to about 3 percent.

The speed of the latest jump in oil prices tests the resilience of economies that weathered previous increases, says David Hale, president of Chicago-based Hale Advisors LLC.

``We've had stages in which the price has gone up over a period of two or three years,'' he told a Nov. 7 teleconference. ``The recent price spike from $85 to $96 has happened in just a few weeks, so this will pose more of a risk.''

The longer prices remain high, the greater the threat, says Neal Soss, chief economist at Credit Suisse Holdings Inc. in New York.

While Soss doesn't expect a recession, he compares the danger to ``driving on an icy road: You may get away with it for a while, but the risk of having an accident has gone up.''

To contact the reporters on this story: Simon Kennedy in Paris at skennedy4@bloomberg.net ; Joe Richter in Washington Jrichter1@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: November 11, 2007 19:02 EST

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
LMAO

Pot? Kettle.


And you do use strawman all the time. You will posit that that I hold dems blameless, and defend and support them, so that you can bloviate about how they're one in the same...


All the while ignore my countless posts/threads calling out the dems.

My "well done republicans" subtext is my opinion that the Republican party/mindset of Reagen "voodoo economics", and the spending of the Republican controlled Congress has made a mockery of today's Republicn "conservatives"

This dogma and mindset has allowed King George to reign over the nighmares we're facing now.

Don't agree? Fine. Make your case. But your only goals are to pick fights with Nick or myself. That's why you seldom bother to reply to anyone else's posts. You certainly don't bring your own takes to the table.

I stand by my statements, and like I said I'm begining to see where Nick was coming from. I misjudged you. I thought you were actually going to bring something to the table.

But hey, every form of entertainment needs critics. Knock yourself out.

I look forward to some brilliant insights and solutions we mortals have yet to see. I know you've just been sandbagging, and warming up by trolling Nick and myself.

But before you try and claim we're taking this shit seriously, or thinking it matters in the real world, or are shilling for the Dems, do your research. Or not.

But if your argument is that the Dems are somehow just as guilty as the Big Government / Privitize the Military / Cut Taxes in War Time Republican Party....... welp, you're nuts.

And for the record, I'm anti-nafta. Like it matters.

See, now that last post really started to hurt my feelings. Did you ever stop and think that maybe Blackflag has a tender side, too?

Why do you have to take everything so personally and get so wound up? Why don't you just take your meds and relax for a while?

I just asked what the basis of your statement was - that Reagan was responsible for the $9T. You still have no answer...but that's cool - we all get caught saying stupid shit occasionally. Nothing to get all defensive about.

BTW - that still isn't a strawman argument, I'm sorry to say. Your homework assignment is to reread the definition of a strawman until you understand it.

[LoungeMachine]

Actually, I've given the Reagan answer repeatedly.....

You just refuse to accept it, which is your right.

If you can't see the conections with Reagan's policies, and what BushCO has slung for 7 years, that's not my issue.....

Jesus, my good man, they've even stooped to HIRING fucks with the names Poindexter Rumsfeld, Cheney, Armitage, et al......

Even the Neo-Con Shitbags that used to haunt this place worhipped the fucking vegetable..... and I don't mean ketchup.


I could not possibly care less if you agree with ANYTHING I say, I'd just like for once for you to actually live by your superior "code of internet wackjobs" you love to spout...

We already have 1 Baby's On Fire, two is redundant.....


And no, to answer your question, I've never stopped to consider your feelings. I figure anyone as smart and calculating, and above the fray such aas yourself is completely devoid of those silly human frailities.....


As for the meds, welp..... I'm no stranger to self medication if that's your point.




Now, can you tell us all how Bill and Nafta are to blame for the $9T ?