Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

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  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49136

    Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

    Fair Tax, Flawed Tax
    Does adding 30% to the price of every house sold sound like a good idea to you?


    BY BRUCE BARTLETT
    Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:01 a.m.

    Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee's unexpectedly strong second-place showing in the recent Iowa Republican straw poll is widely attributed to his support for the FairTax.

    For those who never heard about it, the FairTax is a national retail sales tax that would replace the entire current federal tax system. It was originally devised by the Church of Scientology in the early 1990s as a way to get rid of the Internal Revenue Service, with which the church was then at war (at the time the IRS refused to recognize it as a legitimate religion). The Scientologists' idea was that since almost all states have sales taxes, replacing federal taxes with the same sort of tax would allow them to collect the federal government's revenue and thereby get rid of their hated enemy, the IRS.

    Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) and Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R., Ga.) have introduced legislation (H.R. 25/S. 1025) to implement the FairTax. They assert that a rate of 23% would be sufficient to replace federal individual and corporate income taxes as well as payroll and estate taxes. Mr. Linder's Web site claims that U.S. gross domestic product will rise 10.5% the first year after enactment, exports will grow by 26%, and real investment spending will increase an astonishing 76%.

    In reality, the FairTax rate is not 23%. Messrs. Linder and Chambliss get this figure by calculating the tax as if it were already incorporated into the price of goods and services. (This is known as the tax-inclusive rate.) Calculating it the conventional way that every other (This is called the tax-exclusive rate.)

    The distinction is confusing, but think of it this way. If a product costs $1 at retail, the FairTax adds 30%, for a total of $1.30. Since the 30-cent tax is 23% of $1.30, FairTax supporters say the rate is 23% rather than 30%.

    This is only the beginning of the deceptions in the FairTax. Under the Linder-Chambliss bill, the federal government would have to pay taxes to itself on all of its purchases of goods and services. Thus if the Defense Department buys a tank that now costs $1 million, the manufacturer would have to add the FairTax and send it to the Treasury Department. The tank would then cost the federal government $300,000 more than it does today, but its tax collection will also be $300,000 higher.

    This legerdemain is done solely to make revenues under the FairTax seem larger than they really are, so that its supporters can claim that it is revenue-neutral. But for the government to afford to purchase the same goods and services, it would have to raise spending by the amount of the tax it pays to itself. The FairTax rate, however, is not high enough to finance the higher spending it imposes. Therefore the proposal only works if federal purchases are cut by 30%, close to $300 billion--the increased cost imposed by the FairTax.

    Similarly, state and local governments would have to pay the FairTax on most of their purchases. This means that it is partly financed by higher state and local taxes. It's also worth remembering that state sales taxes now average 6%, which means that the total tax rate will be 36% on retail sales.

    State sales taxes have long exempted all but a few services because of the enormous difficulty in taxing intangibles. But the FairTax would apply to 100% of services, including medical care, thus increasing their cost by 30%. No state comes close to taxing services so broadly.

    Consumers would also find themselves taxed on newly constructed homes. Imagine paying 30% to the federal government on top of the purchase price of your next house.

    Since sales taxes are regressive--taking more in percentage terms from the incomes of the poor and middle class than the rich--some provision is needed to prevent a vast increase in taxation on the nonwealthy. The FairTax does this by sending monthly checks to every household based on income.

    Aside from the incredible complexity and intrusiveness of tracking every American's monthly income--and creating a de facto national welfare program--the FairTax does not include the cost of this rebate in the tax rate. As noted earlier, the FairTax is designed only to match current revenues and does not cover any increased spending that it may require. Since the rebate will cost at least $600 billion the first year, either federal discretionary spending would have to be cut by 60% or the rate would have to be five percentage points higher than advertised.

    Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.

    A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).

    I've emphasized problems with the FairTax rate because public opinion polls have long shown that support for flat-rate tax reforms is extremely sensitive to the proposed rate, with support dropping off sharply at a rate higher than 23%. But there are also massive technical and administrative problems with collecting all federal taxes at the checkout counter and relying entirely on state governments to collect the federal government's revenue.

    Among the problems: What possible incentive would the states have to be vigorous in their federal tax collections? What is to stop them from slacking off and giving their citizens a tax cut at federal expense? What about states with no sales taxes? What's to stop people from bypassing retail outlets and buying their goods from producers or at wholesale, tax-free?

    Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal.

    Yet all but six states now have state income taxes. So unless one lives in one of those states, this promise is an empty one indeed. In short, the FairTax is too good to be true, and voters should not take seriously any candidate who supports it.



    Mr. Bartlett was deputy assistant secretary of the Treasury for economic policy from 1988 to 1993.

    Copyright © 2008 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49136

    #2
    ...the FairTax...was originally devised by the Church of Scientology in the early 1990s as a way to get rid of the Internal Revenue Service, with which the church was then at war (at the time the IRS refused to recognize it as a legitimate religion). The Scientologists' idea was that since almost all states have sales taxes, replacing federal taxes with the same sort of tax would allow them to collect the federal government's revenue and thereby get rid of their hated enemy, the IRS.


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    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 01-08-2008, 07:42 PM.

    Comment

    • Blackflag
      Banned
      • Apr 2006
      • 3406

      #3
      A flat tax would be awesome. A federal sales tax is bull-shit. This guy can stick his spaceman tax plan.

      Comment

      • Seshmeister
        ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

        • Oct 2003
        • 35160

        #4
        Re: Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

        Originally posted by Nickdfresh
        [B][size=3]Since sales taxes are regressive--taking more in percentage terms from the incomes of the poor and middle class than the rich--some provision is needed to prevent a vast increase in taxation on the nonwealthy. The FairTax does this by sending monthly checks to every household based on income.
        This is the why it doesn't work.

        Flat rate doesn't work too well but trying to do rebates is even more crazy.

        It's just dumb.

        Comment

        • Nickdfresh
          SUPER MODERATOR

          • Oct 2004
          • 49136

          #5
          Originally posted by Blackflag
          A flat tax would be awesome. A federal sales tax is bull-shit. This guy can stick his spaceman tax plan.
          Really? And how would a flat tax be any different than Federal income taxes...

          You'd just have to create another agency to oversee what the IRS does now...

          It's a complete idiotic fantasy that benefits only the extreme wealthy while fucking the middle class, hard. It is what it is, a Utopian pipe dream...

          Comment

          • steve
            Sniper
            • Feb 2004
            • 841

            #6
            what also gets confusing in the "fair tax" discussion are definitions...

            What I understand Huckabee and Ron Paul are proposing are consumption taxes...which are bad for many reasons.

            Consumption taxes are regressive as Sesh pointed out and would hurt the poor and ESPECIALLY the poor and middle income elderly. C-taxes are so regressive that they become a stark moral argument in my opinion.

            But also the argument that C-taxes would enable the elimination of the IRS is complete bullshit. Right now most people have one income source and one itemized deduction worksheet. Imagine having to file deductions for every freaking purchase you make - the paperwork would be immense. The IRS would grow into a Terry-Gilliam-esque mess.

            Also, ever stand behind a diplomat at the drugstore trying to void his sales tax with his little card?? Then, ever just leave your toilet paper and shampoo on the ground near the checkout and leave after you are waiting 5 minutes for the manager to come up and complete their checkout? Imagine if every single person was trying to do that.

            Comment

            • knuckleboner
              Crazy Ass Mofo
              • Jan 2004
              • 2927

              #7
              Re: Re: Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

              Originally posted by Seshmeister
              This is the why it doesn't work.

              Flat rate doesn't work too well but trying to do rebates is even more crazy.

              It's just dumb.

              uh...and technically, if you have a flat tax, with rebates for some, it's effectively a graduated tax. you're just reducing the number different income brackets and you're calling it something else, but a rose by any other name...

              Comment

              • LoungeMachine
                DIAMOND STATUS
                • Jul 2004
                • 32555

                #8
                Re: Re: Re: Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

                Originally posted by knuckleboner
                uh but a rose by any other name...
                homo.



                Go Hawks !!!
                Originally posted by Kristy
                Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
                Originally posted by cadaverdog
                I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

                Comment

                • LoungeMachine
                  DIAMOND STATUS
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 32555

                  #9
                  Originally posted by steve


                  Also, ever stand behind a diplomat at the drugstore
                  Sure, happens all the time here.

                  Just the other day I was behind the Ambassador from Equatorial Kundu at the AM PM

                  He was getting 2 corndogs for .99

                  Originally posted by Kristy
                  Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
                  Originally posted by cadaverdog
                  I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

                  Comment

                  • Guitar Shark
                    ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 7576

                    #10
                    Originally posted by LoungeMachine
                    Just the other day I was behind the Ambassador from Equatorial Kundu at the AM PM

                    He was getting 2 corndogs for .99
                    ROTH ARMY MILITIA


                    Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
                    Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

                    Comment

                    • Nickdfresh
                      SUPER MODERATOR

                      • Oct 2004
                      • 49136

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LoungeMachine
                      Sure, happens all the time here.

                      Just the other day I was behind the Ambassador from Equatorial Kundu at the AM PM

                      He was getting 2 corndogs for .99

                      LOL Actually Steve is quite dead on, that's a NoVirginia thing I guess.

                      But in fact there are diplomats in my compound, and every time you see a diplomatic license plate one avoids those fuckers at all cost...

                      Comment

                      • steve
                        Sniper
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 841

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Nickdfresh
                        LOL Actually Steve is quite dead on, that's a NoVirginia thing I guess.

                        But in fact there are diplomats in my compound, and every time you see a diplomatic license plate one avoids those fuckers at all cost...
                        It's not all THAT prevalent where I live, but when I used to work at CVS in high school you'd see it happen once a month or so and some character from Argentina would try to get his 4.5 cents off a snickers bar and damn was it annoying.

                        Also lost in the whole "flat tax vs graduated tax" and income vs consumption tax" debate is the fact that the size of IRS is a result of lobbying and not due to the mode of tax. And lobbying for tax deductions on behalf of constituances (for good AND bad reasons...) will never ever stop...ever...because we have freedom of speech.

                        And for best or worst, you can't say agro-farmers shouldn't lobby the government, but then tell alternative energy industry advocates they can - you've got to apply the law equally.
                        Last edited by steve; 01-09-2008, 03:51 PM.

                        Comment

                        • knuckleboner
                          Crazy Ass Mofo
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 2927

                          #13
                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Huckabee's "Fair Tax" just Scientology Bullshit?

                          Originally posted by LoungeMachine
                          homo.



                          Go Hawks !!!
                          if i am pricked, do i not bleed? (anally?)

                          Comment

                          • Nitro Express
                            DIAMOND STATUS
                            • Aug 2004
                            • 32797

                            #14
                            The politicians don't like sales tax because the pain is too visiable and they can't play games with it. Plus, income tax and the Internal Revenue System gives the govt. an obscene amount of control over citizens by garnishing their earnings, intimidating them. Plus, income tax processing is a $80 billion industry that creates a huge number of jobs.
                            No! You can't have the keys to the wine cellar!

                            Comment

                            • LoungeMachine
                              DIAMOND STATUS
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 32555

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nitro Express
                              Plus, income tax processing is a $80 billion industry that creates a huge number of jobs.
                              Gee, imagine how much "socialized medicine" could be administered with 80 billion dollars.....

                              Funny what this country deems worthy of our tax dollars.

                              Like blowing up countries who have never attacked us, and then paying private companies [who happen to be huge contributors] to do a shitty job rebuilding it......

                              Or billions in corporate welfare.

                              Originally posted by Kristy
                              Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
                              Originally posted by cadaverdog
                              I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

                              Comment

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