My new project, it's a "Jem" of a guitar

[indeedido]

Here I am after two coats of tung oil. I apply a coat with a rag. I rub it in not just wipe it on. Rub a dub dub. After it dries, the next day I use 0000 steel wool to remove the excess. Apply, repeat. I'm going to do 4 coats. Steel wooling in between coats allows the oil to penetrate the wood and seal it somewhat for protection from moisture. Obviously since it isn't a hard finish, technically it is not totally sealed from moisture, but it will be just fine. The wool takes off the top layer and leaves only wood with what has soaked in. After the last bit of wool hits it, it will feel nice and raw.

[indeedido]

Here is the body, it is completely finished and ready to wire up. I hope to wire the pickguard this weekend and mount. I added shielding paint in all the cavities both front and back.

[GAR]

I'll say this much more about the primer in case another DIYer wants me to lay some knowledge their way. Why do I spray primer and not jump straight to the paint? Well, for a couple of reasons: Primer helps to bond the paint to the body, like I mentioned above. Without it, you may find that your paint is doing strange things as it hits the sealer. The primer tends to make the paint stick nicely, eliminating any “funky” patches in your paint. Primer is also good to use because it allows you to see any flaws that you might’ve missed during the sealing stage. The primer acts like a sealer too, because it fills any leftover grain and/or any little dings or holes that may still be there as well as micro scratches. It can be sanded just like the sealer. Now, I'm moving on. Train back on the tracks.

Now I understand what's going on here: you know absolutely nothing about what aids or inhibits adhesion.

It's not primer, it's not sealer coatings: it is simply a clean, etched surface..

You can etch a surface with a wipe-on prep from a can, you can do it with ANY read me clearly ANY grit sandpaper AT ALL.

But you cannot aid adhesion of a new surface, by coating an older surface with a primer, or a sealer beneath that one.

I'll help you along though, with that gap in your understanding.. what you see in the way of these "patches" or "funky" anything going on, is INHIBITION of adhesion.

It happens when you get your dirty, filthy brisket fingers all over everything. And the way you get around that, is by washing your hands, keeping anything oily away from ALL PAINT materials (sandpapers, tapes, cloths, wiping rags, stir sticks, cardboard bench coverings etc) and after final sand, take your cleanest rag and inspecting with a closeup light souce (I used a simple drop light w/a 30 watt bulb) degrease the surface from any fingerprints and dust off with shots of air.

It can also happen from line contamination of your airlines, especially if you use one of those shitty pancake oilless compressors, or do not use an oil and moisture trap filter in your line before the gun.

Bottom line: if you don't know why you're using something, look it up, ask others who know, and try what they advise - but do NOT come in here professing some method you find true as you use it, to be the truth when it is not.

You use primer, and you like thick finishes. Great. They do not aid adhesion of coatings nor obscure surface contamination problems.. degreasers and traps do that!

[GAR]

I use copper foil for shielding, or at least aluminum foil - that conductive paint has lead in it and is toxic to the blood and liver, it's quite evil stuff.

[GAR]

Here I am after two coats of tung oil. I apply a coat with a rag. I rub it in not just wipe it on. Rub a dub dub. After it dries, the next day I use 0000 steel wool to remove the excess.

I would encourage you to try 320 grit to smooth the globs from the second coat of tung oil - two is overkill btw - and then add trewax or a suitable pure carnuba can wax, the buff the hell off it by hand or by machine if you are comfortable with disk speed.

[ELVIS]

If someone chooses to prime directly on the wood it has to be an alkyd based primer. two coats should suffice with a minimum 24hrs cure and sanding between coats.
Primer dries and cures considerably faster than finish coats based on its solvent content and curing agents acting as an accelerant.

Of course, thats more proper...

But you can seal wood with paint. I've done it and it's lasted over 18 years beautifully...

[Igosplut]

Bottom line: if you don't know why you're using something, look it up, ask others who know, and try what they advise - but do NOT come in here professing some method you find true as you use it, to be the truth when it is not.

Everybody in the whole thread (except Elvis) has told you they don't care about your opinion. And your the only one that doesn't agree. Why don't you fuck off and jam your so-called advice down someone else's throat that asked you for it.

You use primer, and you like thick finishes. Great. They do not aid adhesion of coatings nor obscure surface contamination problems.. degreasers and traps do that!

Primers are FOR adhesion...and you no NOTHING about the truth coward.

[ELVIS]

Am I not correct Igo that you can use paint directly on wood ??

You might soak up some paint depending on the density of the wood...

But even ash which is porous, I have sanded and basically sealed it with several very thin coats of laquer (thin so it dries fast and doesn't soak a mile deep altering the good qualities of selecting ash in the first place) because it almost dries in the air while spraying it...

But Gar never did me anything (that I know of) so i still like him...

[indeedido]

Ha, Gar you crack me up you glib son of a bitch. You are a bigger train wreck than Tom Cruise schpieling propaganda at Matt Lauer. When will you learn this thread isn't about you rather the build that I'm doing. I'm not asking for your input simply sharing what I'm doing. I'm not certain what happened to you, you used to seem ok but the last several months you've been a real piece of shit. Much like Mr. T, I pity you....the fool.

[Igosplut]

Am I not correct Igo that you can use paint directly on wood ??

You might soak up some paint depending on the density of the wood...

But even ash which is porous, I have sanded and basically sealed it with several very thin coats of laquer (thin so it dries fast and doesn't soak a mile deep altering the good qualities of selecting ash in the first place) because it almost dries in the air while spraying it...

But Gar never did me anything (that I know of) so i still like him...

I never questioned that. But his statement that "primers do not aid adhesion" is total bullshit. Gar can never PROVE anything (other than being wrong) that he does, he just expounds on knowing (he thinks) more than anybody else.

Painting wood isn't rocket science, and in spite of Gar thinking he's the only one who knows Indeedido looks to be doing a great job.

[ELVIS]

get it right!

I PITY THE FOOL!

[ELVIS]

I never questioned that. But his statement that "primers do not aid adhesion" is total bullshit.

Except in the case of any chrysler vehicle from the 90's...

I had to remove it all by hand on a neon prior to having a friend repaint it...

He said I could paint it, as I had worked for him in the past, but I asked him to do it as he has more experience with car spraying, and paint aint cheep!

I did spray the new primer though...

[Igosplut]

Except in the case of any chrysler vehicle from the 90's...

Don't forget Fords for that list!

I don't do any of my own painting anymore, Have a friend that that's all he does. He has access to a modular spray-and-bake booth, and only uses Spies-Hecker (german) paints. Fabulous stuff, but very pricey....

PM me your Email and I'll shoot you some pics of what I've got going right now, You'd like it...

[GAR]

Ha, Gar you crack me up you glib son of a bitch. You are a bigger train wreck than Tom Cruise schpieling propaganda at Matt Lauer. When will you learn this thread isn't about you rather the build that I'm doing. I'm not asking for your input simply sharing what I'm doing. I'm not certain what happened to you, you used to seem ok but the last several months you've been a real piece of shit. Much like Mr. T, I pity you....the fool.

First of all, this whole site is nothing if it's not a discussion board so by definition should you disinvite my discussion, you invalidate your own thread.

Secondly, as part OF the discussion board and a member specifically having experience in retail repairs and on the OEM side of factory finishes, I'm calling you out on propogating a myth. If you don't like it? Too bad! If you disagree, prove you're correct/

Thirdly, my offerings are given for your refinement, and if you notice the criticism getting harsh there was a reason: such as name-calling or propagation of mistruths.

Lastly, primer is not made for adhesion: it is a scratch filler and a universally mute color backing for almost all colors, to blank out both bare metal sheen and the harsh pinks of bondo body filler prior to the final color coat.

[GAR]

I never questioned that. But his statement that "primers do not aid adhesion" is total bullshit... Indeedido looks to be doing a great job.

NO question, he's doing some good finishes. They're very smooth and he's not wrecking the corners and edges with his color wetsanding. But they're also unnecessily thick. Like your cranium.

The current contention is his unnecessary use of primer, as I've stated before with the wood grain filled, go straight to color.

I also disagree with his use of #0000 steel wool, because one of the things in using it fine as it is, it creates dirt that contaminates the bench and everything in the room, and it can make the neck filthy.

The only thing I use that for is frets, or taking rust off vintage parts with a little dab of WD40 and #0000 without scratching the chrome. I'd never ever use that for oil finished maple surfaces!

[ELVIS]

PM me your Email and I'll shoot you some pics of what I've got going right now, You'd like it...

I wish I could say the same...

I have a Neon ACR that my neighbor backed into not long after the paint job, so I kinda got discouraged. But it has a roll cage and aftermarket suspension and a few other things...

I alsi have a 78 650 Special and a parts bike i'm trying to turn into an early Triumph looking bike with open pipes and no front fender...

[jhale667]

NO question, he's doing some good finishes.

Then quit being a douche about it.

[GAR]

I don't know why anyone would want to defend an inferior finish when good could be "best" so I watch with interest his next project used without primer.

Ash is the worst to seal up, even still I would use a sanding sealer, then a clear, then built up layers to color. Sealing ash grains take a lot of sanding so I can see laziness playing a part in wanting to fill it up with grey autobody primer.. but like I said before at age 16 I found out that's not the most stable way to go.

Yes Elvis, you can paint directly over wood. The reason its not done, is the pigment is much much finer in a clear coat of anything (lacquer, enamel, acrylic, ALL) and cheaper, usually about half depending on choice.

[ELVIS]

I know that...

i wouldn't do it now. That was 18 years ago...

[jhale667]

Clear sanding sealer works great. It's like 10 bucks a can from StewMac.

ColorTone Aerosol Guitar Lacquer at Stewart-MacDonald

[GAR]

An 10 ounce aerosol can should be good for about 3 ounces of finish and 6 of thinner.

A do-it-yourselfer should use a quart of Deft lacquer wood finish of any clear kind: sanding sealer, semi-gloss, gloss - doesn't matter if you are just filling porous grain with it.

I have learned that you can reduce the sealer 2:1 with lacquer thinner, and another 10% with acetone. Acetone makes it flash real fast - skinning it over faster keep the fucking bugs off it. I use a throwaway chip brush 3" and brush on sealer, gotten fairly decent results just for building sealer coats I dont use a gun.

Ive done a couple bodies with Krylon, even so, I used spray clear first, then sanded, then color. No primer.

Took a month to dry, but then again, you get what you pay for when going all out with a pressure gun setup and lacquer.

[Igosplut]

Took a month to dry, but then again, you get what you pay for when going all out with a pressure gun setup and lacquer.

Where do you get Lacquer paint to mix in a gun there pinhead?

Lacquer has been outlawed in most all states (MA in 2000 and Cal was before that) because of the solvents released.

Another bullshit story debunked....

[kwame k]

You know what's funny...........Clay seems to think everyone needs his permission to build their real guitars. Paint it with fucking Rust-Oleum if you want, it's your guitar.

[GAR]

Cardinal Industrial Finishes Inc. | South El Monte, CA | Company Profile, Research, News, Information, Contacts

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/searc...company=589886

http://www.valspar.com/

http://www.houseofkolor.com/

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/oem/...recat_lacquer/

http://www.pittsburghpaints.com/our_...quer/index.htm

[GAR]

You know what's funny...........Clay seems to think everyone needs his permission to build their real guitars. Paint it with fucking Rust-Oleum if you want, it's your guitar.

Those bare-naked shells could use a few coats of Rust-Oleum Hammertone Silver.

[Igosplut]

Automotive Acrylic Lacquer (the kind mixed with Lacquer thinner) has been outlawed in most states because of the 80% thinners released when painting. I see your links are for interior wood Lacquers (except valspar who do not list Lacquer in their search) These Lacquers all (reading it in their product sheets) HAVE to activated with their own perspective catalyst to work/dry. NONE of them activate with Lacquer thinner, in fact two state that thinner react with the catalyst to halt it (aid to cleaning up). And all warn against mixing anything other than the catalyst in that the chemical reaction will not take place. These are not oil based (that can be cut with thinners like acetone) and not the acrylic (that are thinned and propelled with thinners). These are HAPS compliant stand-alone products.

Didn't know that. They say you learn something everyday..

Bottom line is you would of had me, except the way you describe mixing them (with incompatibles). If you had left that out, I might of thought you were telling the truth about something. But this is more "Close, but no cigar"....

[GAR]

Doooooode... no product named "lacquer" requires a hardener to activate it.

Lacquer is naturally-aspirated, meaning the pigments and plasticisers are melted together in a fluid that when the volatile solvents flash off, they lock together forming a film that dries
down thru all layers.

VOC's aren't banned, they're regulated. Nitrocellulose based lacquer is dangerous and explosive because it comes from natural fibers, and acrylic pigments come from petroleum pigments - ie man-made.

There's no difference in thinners, both lacquers are the same, neither is banned.

Nitrocellulose-based is now so expensive you wouldn't want to paint a car or motorcycle with it. Acrylic works but fades.

[jhale667]

VOC's aren't banned, they're regulated. Nitrocellulose based lacquer is dangerous and explosive because it comes from natural fibers, and acrylic pigments come from petroleum pigments - ie man-made.

There's no difference in thinners, both lacquers are the same, neither is banned.

Nitrocellulose-based is now so expensive you wouldn't want to paint a car or motorcycle with it. Acrylic works but fades.

Think you're actually right (statistically it has to happen once in a while) there. I can get the canned Stew Mac Nitro in CA, just can't have it shipped to me Next Day Air or anything, because it's considered "Hazardous".

You could still do a basic clear or solid for under $100 with their stuff.

[GAR]

sheeeyett.. I used to use PPG acrylic waterclear lacquer, $14 per quart.

That was back in 87 though, last I bought.. 100 is nuts! I could do 7 or 8 bodies in clear final coat with a quart!!

[jhale667]

Why would you do Acrylic if you can get Nitro?

[kwame k]

Why would you do Acrylic if you can get Nitro?

....because that's what the message board said where he steals his info from

[Igosplut]

Doooooode... no product named "lacquer" requires a hardener to activate it.

Read your own links dipshit, that's where I got the info..

Lacquer is naturally-aspirated, meaning the pigments and plasticisers are melted together in a fluid that when the volatile solvents flash off, they lock together forming a film that dries
down thru all layers.

VOC's aren't banned, they're regulated. Nitrocellulose based lacquer is dangerous and explosive because it comes from natural fibers, and acrylic pigments come from petroleum pigments - ie man-made.

HERE"S a quote from a professional auto painting website:

Lacquers: Paints that dry by evaporative loss of solvent. The film remains susceptible to attack by the same or similar solvents. Lacquers can be based on nitrocellulose or acrylic resins. These paints are illegal according to V.O.C. regulations in almost every state in the U.S


There are other sites that have that info that I found.
And thats why the links you gave me were different compound- based Lacquers for wood that had to have activators....

There's no difference in thinners, both lacquers are the same, neither is banned.

See above

Nitrocellulose-based is now so expensive you wouldn't want to paint a car or motorcycle with it. Acrylic works but fades.

Most modern paints leave Lacquer paint in the dust. First thing you've said right all day..

[GAR]

Why would you do Acrylic if you can get Nitro?

Well, acrylic is a little more durable and easier to maintain.. less susceptible to cracking checking and hazing and doesn't yellow so badly as nitro.

And if what you're quoting for prices on nitro, cheaper.

PC Guardsman Lacquers used to be the one to use in the 80s and they were really good nitro lacquers, but they got bought out and are now called "Guardsman Chemical Inc." and I don't think they make it anymore.

[Diamondjimi]

You keep painting your houses, let's leave the guitar finishes to those who actually spray stuff..

alkyd=google goggles

Alkyd ,big word for ya ,eh?

FYI, I own and use a Graco 4900 HVLP (that's high pressure,low volume- just saving ya some Google time ,Bish) and a Graco 495 airless prayer for different types of spraying that I do.

GARunich, since you have shown NO proof of you actually owning a guitar, your Google drivvel holds no water in this forum. Everything you speak of is in past tense. Your post's reek of envy and jealousy directed to those of us here that actually own,build and post gear pic.'s.
Your blabbering ,run on ,jibber jabber post's are about as interesting to read as Blaze or Thomes on med days.
You own nothing , you play nothing. you know nothing ,you are nothing...

Why the fuck are you still here... oh yeah, you're banned from every DLR forum on the internet....

Of course, thats more proper...

But you can seal wood with paint. I've done it and it's lasted over 18 years beautifully...

Yes it can be done and work out. Using finish paints directly to unprimed wood ,as you've experienced, has a longer curing time thus leaving the wood surface softer until proper curing has taken place. Which means more time between coats .
Primer has better penetration and dries hard as stone

[rustoffa]

I alsi have a 78 650 Special and a parts bike i'm trying to turn into an early Triumph looking bike with open pipes and no front fender...

Put a knobby tire on the front for extra style points!!!

[GAR]

I moved up from the 390 to the 495, and it does kick ass.. but I'm ready for the Graco 650 - I know every part of an airless and I got my eye on one in a pawn shop down in Lomita for $300 - even if it needs a new pump, my 495 cost me brand new $1700 so this is a steal.

[letsrock]

Am I not correct Igo that you can use paint directly on wood ??

You might soak up some paint depending on the density of the wood...

But even ash which is porous, I have sanded and basically sealed it with several very thin coats of laquer (thin so it dries fast and doesn't soak a mile deep altering the good qualities of selecting ash in the first place) because it almost dries in the air while spraying it...

But Gar never did me anything (that I know of) so i still like him...

yes you can paint directly on wood. There is no law against it.

[indeedido]

Here is a quick sidebar related to my build.

In my travels to find a body and a neck, I came across this guy at Legacy One Guitars. He markets on ebay under Deep 6. Turns out the guy is a crook and a HUGE piece of shit. There are hundreds of pages under a thread at jemsite.com about this guy. He is the one I bought my original neck from and went round and round with my CC company to eventially get my money back. More on that story in a moment.

Here is the part you may find interesting. On his website, Welcome to Legacy One Guitars, he has many guitars he's made and offers. most of the pics look great. Inlay work looks good. More on that later....Any way, click on guitars and then the one titled IbanED. He has posted his discussion with Edward's lawyers. Check it out and discuss.

[indeedido]

The Ultimate Embarrassment VH Guitar

Not for sale!

Although Ed is a very nice, fan loving, talented,
non-drug using-incredible role model, he doesn't want you to own a red, black and white guitar.

I've been told this many times by Tracy Taub of ELVH, Inc.

My latest conversation with Tracy went EXACTLY, WORD FOR WORD, like this:

From: Tracy Taub
To: Deep 6
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 5:01 PM

Chris,

Please remove the following black and yellow striped guitar from your site for sale.
This is a violation of another ELVH, Inc copyright (Franky Design VAu 544-060).

MY RESPONSE.....

From: Deep 6 [mailto:deep6@2legacy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:54 PM
To: Tracy Taub
Subject: Re: Van Halen Guitars for the masses!

Are you serious.... That son of a bitch just cancelled $1500 worth of concert tickets (3 VIP Tickets for the 4/5/2008 show) becauce he can't keep off the drugs long enough to finish a tour, but he still has enough clarity to worry about a 3 year old guitar body I found in my basement. You guys must be proud of your clients. They are super classy.

Luckily "I LOVE ALL ACCESS" is a class act, and they refunded my money. You're company and CLIENTS could learn a lot from them.

Tracy as I've always said, "I'm sure you're personally not the devil." That being said, I hope you like working for him.

Tell Ed, well never mind don't tell him anything, and yes, I will remove the body from my site.

Have a nice day. It's always a pleasure hearing from you.

Chris

TRACY'S RESPONSE

Chris,

None of the dates were cancelled, and the new concert dates were just announced yesterday.

None of this had to do with drugs, and that being said, thank you for your cooperation.

And yes, I do enjoy working for EVH.

Tracy

Tracy Taub
ELVH, Inc.
ttaub@nksf.com



So let me recap the fun parts......

Chris-Tracy as I've always said, "I'm sure you're personally not the devil." That being said, I hope you like working for him.

Tracy-yes, I do enjoy working for EVH.

That's awesome.

[indeedido]

Now for the guys' work. See anything unusually wrong with these pics of the neck I bought from him????