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Thread: Uninsured Twice as Likely to Die After ER Visits

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    Uninsured Twice as Likely to Die After ER Visits

    Uninsured ER patients twice as likely to die
    New study highlights disparity of care for those who don't have coverage

    The Associated Press
    updated 4:00 p.m. ET, Mon., Nov . 16, 2009

    CHICAGO - Uninsured patients with traumatic injuries, such as car crashes, falls and gunshot wounds, were almost twice as likely to die in the hospital as similarly injured patients with health insurance, according to a troubling new study.

    The findings by Harvard University researchers surprised doctors and health experts who have believed emergency room care was equitable.

    "This is another drop in a sea of evidence that the uninsured fare much worse in their health in the United States," said senior author Dr. Atul Gawande, a Harvard surgeon and medical journalist.

    The study, appearing in the November issue of Archives of Surgery, comes as Congress is debating the expansion of health insurance coverage to millions more Americans. It could add fodder to that debate.

    The researchers couldn't pin down the reasons behind the differences they found. The uninsured might experience more delays being transferred from hospital to hospital. Or they might get different care. Or they could have more trouble communicating with doctors.

    The hospitals that treat them also could have fewer resources.

    "Those hospitals tend to be financially strapped, not have the same level of staffing, not have the same level of surgeons and testing and equipment," Gawande said. "That also is likely a major contributor."

    Gawande favors health care reform and has frequently written about the inequities of the current system.

    The researchers took into account the severity of the injuries and the patients' race, gender and age. After those adjustments, they still found the uninsured were 80 percent more likely to die than those with insurance — even low-income patients insured by the government's Medicaid program.

    "I'm really surprised," said Dr. Eric Lavonas of the American College of Emergency Physicians and a doctor at Denver Health Medical Center. "It's well known that people without health insurance don't get the same quality of health care in this country, but I would have thought that this group of patients would be the least vulnerable."

    Private hospitals more likely to transfer uninsured
    Some private hospitals are more likely to transfer an uninsured patient than an insured patient, said Lavonas, who wasn't involved in the new research.

    "Sometimes we get patients transferred and we suspect they're being transferred because of payment issues," he said. "The transferring physician says, 'We're not able to handle this."'

    Federal law requires hospital ERs to treat all patients who are medically unstable. But hospitals can transfer patients, or send them away, once they're stabilized. A transfer could worsen a patient's condition by delaying treatment.

    The researchers analyzed data on nearly 690,000 U.S. patients from 2002 through 2006. Burn patients were not included, nor were people who were treated and released, or dead on arrival.

    In the study, the overall death rate was 4.7 percent, so most emergency room patients survived their injuries. The commercially insured patients had a death rate of 3.3 percent. The uninsured patients' death rate was 5.7 percent. Those rates were before the adjustments for other risk factors.

    The findings are based on an analysis of data from the National Trauma Data Bank, which includes more than 900 U.S. hospitals.

    "We have to take the findings very seriously," said lead author Dr. Heather Rosen, a surgery resident at Los Angeles County Hospital, who found similar results when she analyzed children's trauma data for an earlier study. "This affects every person, of every age, of every race."

    © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

    Uninsured ER patients twice as likely to die - Health care- msnbc.com
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 11-19-2009 at 10:40 AM.
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    That is shocking.

    It's not a political thing, I'm honestly really confused by the people here who are against public health care for everyone.

    Usually I don't post in purely domestic US subjects but I thought I had to help alleviate the lies being told.

    I'm really depressed and shocked by the power of the lobbyists being able to own people and scare them into being against their own self interest.

    As the weather turns worse it really makes me appreciate how lucky I am not living in the US.

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    That is shocking.

    It's not a political thing, I'm honestly really confused by the people here who are against public health care for everyone.

    Usually I don't post in purely domestic US subjects but I thought I had to help alleviate the lies being told.

    That's a good policy.

    I'm really depressed and shocked by the power of the lobbyists being able to own people and scare them into being against their own self interest.

    As the weather turns worse it really makes me appreciate how lucky I am not living in the US.

    Cheers
    Well because it is amazing how much infomation is left out and therefore the "lies" seem bigger than they are.

    How many emergency patients were not US citizens? Can't ask, Can't tell seems to be our policy. When you add in those costs to the "public option" the numbers are quite staggering. Illegals are patched up and sent on their way "humane emergency care", so why should they be shocked that the rate is so high? The money that MAY have been there to help the mentally ill, the infirm is going out the door to whomever walks across the border.

    This "you are so heartless" BS is just that. Common sense solutions are there. But poorly thought out and executed half baked public option plans which will not solve anything and will more than likely cause more woe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post

    How many emergency patients were not US citizens?
    What does it matter?

    Your Xenophobia is showing.

    If your child was travelling abroad and was hurt in a tragic accident, or came down with a life-threatening illness, and the foreign ER wouldnt treat them because they werent a citizen you'd be outraged and heartbroken.

    Your callousness to your fellow man is really disgusting at times, you know that?

    Of course you do.

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    I'm the Devil, and I have more "Christ like compassion" than most Repukes do.

    And they call ME the father of lies, and the source of all evil?
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    Talking Ka-blam!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoungeMachine View Post
    What does it matter?

    Your Xenophobia is showing.

    If your child was travelling abroad and was hurt in a tragic accident, or came down with a life-threatening illness, and the foreign ER wouldnt treat them because they werent a citizen you'd be outraged and heartbroken.

    Your callousness to your fellow man is really disgusting at times, you know that?

    Of course you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoungeMachine View Post
    What does it matter?

    Your Xenophobia is showing.

    If your child was travelling abroad and was hurt in a tragic accident, or came down with a life-threatening illness, and the foreign ER wouldnt treat them because they werent a citizen you'd be outraged and heartbroken.

    Your callousness to your fellow man is really disgusting at times, you know that?

    Of course you do.

    Yea, exactly. I'm just sticking to the math, I will justify myself to you sometime after the cows come home.

    If my child was TRAVELING abroad yes, he should be treated (and I'm not against emergency, life threatening healthcare. Just using it regularly AS your healthcare, which many do, since they are LIVING here illegally).

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    Think at the very least health insurance coverage should be severed from the workplace. An affordable system should be made available (don't give me that COBRA bullshit) that isn't tied to the contingency of being employed, and therefore doesn't end when employment at a company ends.

    Sadly, what really should be done re: health insurance, won't. Nobody will make any sacrifices. Not in terms of increased taxes, not in terms of anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    An affordable system should be made available (don't give me that COBRA bullshit) that isn't tied to the contingency of being employed, and therefore doesn't end when employment at a company ends.
    Totally hear ya on that one. The COBRA equivalent of my current PPO would be staggering. Don't even wanna think about that one.

    Sadly, what really should be done re: health insurance, won't. Nobody will make any sacrifices. Not in terms of increased taxes, not in terms of anything.
    It's seeming more like that daily...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    If my child was TRAVELING abroad yes, he should be treated (and I'm not against emergency, life threatening healthcare. Just using it regularly AS your healthcare, which many do, since they are LIVING here illegally).
    *backpeddle*


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    I don't see that, since I just explained to you what I see to be the problem.

    Perhaps we can actually debate when you finish your temper tantrum, cuz I'm just so mean...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    I don't see that, since I just explained to you what I see to be the problem.

    Perhaps we can actually debate when you finish your temper tantrum, cuz I'm just so mean...
    Sorry.

    I can't be as polite as Lounge.

    1."what you see to be the problem" is proof positive that you continue to pull things straight out of your ass. You're The Boy In The Plastic Douchebag. Your perception of reality is so fucked up, you think it's fact. Illegals are driving the cost of healthcare up? ...You have no data to back this up....and don't try and show us any "California statistics" because believe it or not, the United States is a much bigger place, and ran much more efficiently than that shithole state that just couldn't wait to make an Austrian bodybuilder the Governor.

    I've witnessed firsthand the exploitation and so-called "emergency care" available to Illegals who get injured on the job here. They are scared shitless to go into a hospital. They opt out for some other "doctor" who speaks the language and operates out of his or her home...for a fee.-Usually another illegal. No paper trail, no accident report, no getting caught by the INS. It's fucking inhuman.

    2. There's no "debating" with you. It's pointless because shit continues to fly from your backside when logic and fact should be coming from your brain and translated onto the boards via your fingers.

    I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you a goddamned liar.

    Feel free to own me into oblivion with some truth. Just once.


    You flaming asshole...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideyoursheep View Post
    Sorry.

    I can't be as polite as Lounge.

    1."what you see to be the problem" is proof positive that you continue to pull things straight out of your ass. You're The Boy In The Plastic Douchebag. Your perception of reality is so fucked up, you think it's fact. Illegals are driving the cost of healthcare up? ...You have no data to back this up....and don't try and show us any "California statistics" because believe it or not, the United States is a much bigger place, and ran much more efficiently than that shithole state that just couldn't wait to make an Austrian bodybuilder the Governor.

    I've witnessed firsthand the exploitation and so-called "emergency care" available to Illegals who get injured on the job here. They are scared shitless to go into a hospital. They opt out for some other "doctor" who speaks the language and operates out of his or her home...for a fee.-Usually another illegal. No paper trail, no accident report, no getting caught by the INS. It's fucking inhuman.

    2. There's no "debating" with you. It's pointless because shit continues to fly from your backside when logic and fact should be coming from your brain and translated onto the boards via your fingers.

    I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you a goddamned liar.

    Feel free to own me into oblivion with some truth. Just once.


    You flaming asshole...
    Your (past tense implied within the thought composition of the sentence construction) the Skizzo!

    You seem to think your post makes all those -Illegals Innocent- of fukking this country out of the Billions they send back to Mexico.

    FIGHT THE POWER!
    Last edited by thome; 11-20-2009 at 12:09 PM.
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    You'RE a moron.

    Quote Originally Posted by thome View Post
    Your the Skizzo!
    Says the guy that can't use a contraction properly...


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    IT'S "YOUR" PAST TENSE YOU FUKKING KOKK! NOT PRESENT AGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

    SUKKIT YOU GEENUSSES AND YOU'R HORSE RODE IN ON!!!

    Hale, you ..cool rat bastard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thome View Post
    IT'S "YOUR" PAST TENSE YOU FUKKING KOKK! NOT PRESENT AGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
    And that would be relevant how exactly...?



    Hale, you ..cool rat bastard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    And that would be relevant how exactly...?






    See what you're "soon" (present and future tense implied within the sentence construction) "to be doing" Nickie D Frakkie is gonna give us our own thread and move it to the dump....


    and tell us to get a room.....:tongue0011:

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    I can tell you in MA if you show up at a private hospital's ER without insurance, they'll spin you around and shove you back through the door (provided you are ambulatory). If not, they bodily remove you. No insurance and you are a trespasser, no shit...

    Flip side of that, is everybody in MA is required to have insurance (you get a heavy fine on your taxes if you don't). The State has plans if you can't afford a regular company. BUT most private doctors refuse to take it because of the loopholes in the payments. And I believe some private hospitals as well reject State-insured patient plans....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    That is shocking.

    It's not a political thing, I'm honestly really confused by the people here who are against public health care for everyone.

    Cheers

    Because we don't believe the Government has our best interests at heart and it tramples our freedom, what little is left...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideyoursheep View Post
    Sorry.

    I can't be as polite as Lounge.

    1."what you see to be the problem" is proof positive that you continue to pull things straight out of your ass. You're The Boy In The Plastic Douchebag. Your perception of reality is so fucked up, you think it's fact. Illegals are driving the cost of healthcare up? ...You have no data to back this up....and don't try and show us any "California statistics" because believe it or not, the United States is a much bigger place, and ran much more efficiently than that shithole state that just couldn't wait to make an Austrian bodybuilder the Governor.

    What's the point of debating you? What you see to be the truth, is, so I'm not trying convince you of shit. I'm here to express my opinion. That you don't like it isn't my problem. I'm still waiting to see "Your data., of which you have never even tried to present.

    The illegals aren't my problem, the government that isn't doing anything is.


    I've witnessed firsthand the exploitation and so-called "emergency care" available to Illegals who get injured on the job here. They are scared shitless to go into a hospital. They opt out for some other "doctor" who speaks the language and operates out of his or her home...for a fee.-Usually another illegal. No paper trail, no accident report, no getting caught by the INS. It's fucking inhuman.

    2. There's no "debating" with you. It's pointless because shit continues to fly from your backside when logic and fact should be coming from your brain and translated onto the boards via your fingers.

    I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you a goddamned liar.

    Feel free to own me into oblivion with some truth. Just once.

    That was excellent, all I need to say is ditto. Much appreciated saving me the time.

    You flaming asshole...
    Stop being a fucking child. So you or Lounge don't like me personally doesn't mean you can't be a fucking grown up and discuss things. You don't like what I say, fine. Can just leave it at that and say so. Has to go into this childish bullshit, then I respond and off the rails it goes.
    Last edited by Big Train; 11-20-2009 at 08:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Because we don't believe the Government has our best interests at heart and it tramples our freedom, what little is left...
    I forgot about that, and how the insurance companies have our interests at heart, like when they refuse to cover people with preexisting conditions. Or charge women up to 40% more than men for the same coverage...

    Get your head out of your ass, and quit being such a bitch...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    Stop being a fucking child.Fuck you. You made another bullshit statement, and I'm calling you on it...again.

    So you or Lounge don't like me personally doesn't mean you can't be a fucking grown up and discuss things."Personal" has nothing to do with it.And in case you've forgotten, I'M THE ONE ASKING YOU TO VERIFY YOUR BULLSHIT POSTS!! DAmn, you're thick-headed. You don't like what I say, fine. Can just leave it at that and say so.I don't like when you flat-out lie, and expect us to accept your nonsense as truth. Why do you think we're all stupid enough to go along with it? Does asking for truth upset you? Fuck you again. Double fuck you. Man up. Has to go into this childish bullshit, then I respond and off the rails it goes.
    Yeah..childish...

    Like I said, feel free.

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    How can I fuckface? You "won't accept" California or LA county data (where I live and where the numbers are staggering), so tell me what would be considered "acceptable" to you. If the County of LA's numbers are "lies", then no logical argument will suffice.

    Which also would mean, I couldn't sit here with the calculator and figure it out for the other 49 states. You want a thesis out of me, but present nothing for your argument other than a story about a guy at a jobsite you were on once.
    Last edited by Big Train; 11-22-2009 at 08:26 PM.

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    Well, I guess it's cool if you want to dance with my social disease.

    Or as stated in the compliance entry thread title you could blame e it on the system.

    Like Nikkie and Loungie and THE FRONT.

    FIGHT THE POWER!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    How can I fuckface? You "won't accept" California or LA county data (where I live and where the numbers are staggering), so tell me what would be considered "acceptable" to you.
    What would be acceptable would be for California to return to it's rightful status as part of Mexico. It was Spanish longer than it's been part of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    What would be acceptable would be for California to return to it's rightful status as part of Mexico. It was Spanish longer than it's been part of the US.
    It looks like it's headed that way, as does Texas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    How can I fuckface? You "won't accept" California or LA county data (where I live and where the numbers are staggering), so tell me what would be considered "acceptable" to you. If the County of LA's numbers are "lies", then no logical argument will suffice.

    Which also would mean, I couldn't sit here with the calculator and figure it out for the other 49 states. You want a thesis out of me, but present nothing for your argument other than a story about a guy at a jobsite you were on once.
    OMFG..

    Try again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hideyoursheep View Post
    OMFG..

    Try again...
    Nah....

    That's the best he's got. His A-game.



    dont bother.....

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    I guess so...I can't simplify it any further for you retards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    I guess so...I can't simplify it any further for you retards.
    Is your whole premise that it is illegals who have ruined health care and are costing us billions of dollars, stripping away decent coverage and care.....Nationwide?

    All data points to bad/corrupt billing practices, overpriced/under insured people, costs of Health Care way higher than other Industrial Nations but less care for the average person who has insurance or sky high deductibles. This is from the AMA and other non-partisan groups!

    Giving a Micro-wave mentality that it's all the Mexican's fault......you're treading on dangerous ground there.....blaming one ethnic group for all our troubles, to a given situation!!!!!!

    I seem to remember a guy from Germany doing just that
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwame k View Post
    Is your whole premise that it is illegals who have ruined health care and are costing us billions of dollars, stripping away decent coverage and care.....Nationwide?

    I don't know about nationwide, but certainly within my state and my county, these are not small costs. I don't believe they are "stripping away decent coverage" but they are causing a great deal of costs and stress on the local hospital system. That cannot be denied.

    All data points to bad/corrupt billing practices, overpriced/under insured people, costs of Health Care way higher than other Industrial Nations but less care for the average person who has insurance or sky high deductibles. This is from the AMA and other non-partisan groups!

    I agree. When I say that there are things within the existing system that should be fixed first to control costs BEFORE we go all out on a government system, this is precisely the kinds of things I mean.

    Giving a Micro-wave mentality that it's all the Mexican's fault......you're treading on dangerous ground there.....blaming one ethnic group for all our troubles, to a given situation!!!!!!

    I seem to remember a guy from Germany doing just that
    Yes, I must be being racist because I'm pointing out something about the system that is out of whack. If you think I "hate Mexicans", you are sorely mistaken.
    Last edited by Big Train; 11-23-2009 at 07:09 PM.

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    You don't hate them, you just want them to die.

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    I asked was your whole premise based on illegals were destroying Health Care and never once called you a racist, unless you actually believed that only illegals and no other factors have ruined health care.

    Look I know you guys in Cali have a huge problem with illegals, so do most border States. They were working as far North as Michigan, so every State most likely has a problem with illegal aliens.

    How many illegals versus citizens do you think there are in this country.......just a ballpark percentage, 5 or 10 million.......say 20 million. There are over 308 million people in the US right now; US & World Population Clock even giving you that 20 million are here illegally that small of a percentage is not what is ruining Health Care!

    In Michigan, if you couldn't afford Health Insurance and got injured or sick and couldn't pay back the cost of your Hospital visit there was public assistance available, as long as you were poor enough. So using your illegal's are ruining Health Care stance, you have to add the poor, the young and anyone else that can't/won't get Health Insurance.

    So what you're really saying is that everyone should be mandated to get Insurance because of the burden it puts on the rest of us, right
    Last edited by kwame k; 11-23-2009 at 08:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwame k View Post
    I asked was your whole premise based on illegals were destroying Health Care and never once called you a racist, unless you actually believed that only illegals and no other factors have ruined health care.

    You never said it, but when you invoke Hilter, I kind of have to make sure we are straight about it.

    Look I know you guys in Cali have a huge problem with illegals, so do most border States. They were working as far North as Michigan, so every State most likely has a problem with illegal aliens.

    Exactly, it is a huge cost burden. I don't know what is across other states, but I'd imagine it is something in every state and a huge amount in some of the most populated states.

    How many illegals versus citizens do you think there are in this country.......just a ballpark percentage, 5 or 10 million.......say 20 million. There are over 308 million people in the US right now; US & World Population Clock even giving you that 20 million are here illegally that small of a percentage is not what is ruining Health Care!

    Kwame, my stance, all I'm saying, is that COSTS are what is ruining Health Care. Illegals are a big part of that cost structure that needs to be minimized or eliminated. Controlling those costs (the ones you mentioned above are just as important to me) is the first step to "reform", not governmental control.

    In Michigan, if you couldn't afford Health Insurance and got injured or sick and couldn't pay back the cost of your Hospital visit there was public assistance available, as long as you were poor enough. So using your illegal's are ruining Health Care stance, you have to add the poor, the young and anyone else that can't/won't get Health Insurance.

    So what you're really saying is that everyone should be mandated to get Insurance because of the burden it puts on the rest of us, right
    If you have ins. or cash, great. If you have EXISTING government help (Medicare, whatever state help you get) fantastic. Tightening up the existing system is a much saner way of approaching this problem then trying to invent a government program out of thin air.

    In the case of illegals, it should be limited emergency care (to be humane) only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    You don't hate them, you just want them to die.
    No asshole, I don't.

    I'd like to see them return to their home country, get healthy, get their paperwork in order and then return as a guest worker if they like or apply to be a citizen.
    Last edited by Big Train; 11-23-2009 at 08:40 PM.

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    I guess we'll have agree to disagree on this. I don't feel illegals are more of a burden on the system than the citizens themselves are.

    Insurance companies are only out for a buck and could give less than a fuck about you....you are not a person but a number, a risk/reward scenario, period. They don't care about giving you Health Care, they care about profit. That billions are wasted every year because of billing errors.....Fucking Billions, is beyond criminal. They have made it so anyone who can't get job sponsored insurance is fucked. I paid over a thousand a month for piss ass Health Insurance for my two step-kids. Shitty fucking medical and piss poor dental....that was it. Add on my ex-wife's and mine....catastrophic insurance with a high deductible and we were well over $1,500 a month. When my step-daughter had an extended stay in the hospital not only did it cost me $2,000 but I had to pick 80% of the prescription costs.

    I was self-employed, how and the fuck can the working poor or the people just above poor or even the Middle Class handle that. How as a business owner can I afford to give my employees insurance and if I can it's suck ass Insurance at best.

    Are we going to ask the Insurance Companies to regulate themselves? How about the Drug Companies? Worked well on Wall Street.

    Sorry but the fucking sickness of greed that has infected the Health Care Industry has got to go. Oh yeah, the fucking criminal rates that Hospitals/Doctors charge.....dislocated my shoulder, ER dude set it, knocked me out for an hour and I was on my way! $2,000 fucking dollars for that. Since I didn't have Insurance and to see if they could squeeze any more money, they told me I might have a spur on the bone and I needed to see a Specialist. When I called to make the appointment the cunt on the phone told me three fucking time you have to pay the $100.00 office visit first before you even see the doctor. Now being a drummer and an all around active guy my shoulder was a huge concern and I had the cash to burn, so I went. He took some x-rays and said everything was fine. I asked about rehabbing my shoulder and he said and I quote, "Oh, just move your arm as high up as you can until it doesn't hurt anymore". Now had I had Insurance I would of been going to rehab my shoulder three times a week.

    That's what's fucking wrong with Health Care in this country, not if small percentage of Illegals who might go to the ER.

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    The THEFT and FRAUD commited by Big Insurance, dwarfs any "abuse" by undocumented aliens.



    duh.

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    Kwame

    Was a pleasure Discussing it with you.

    I don't disagree with you about many of the Ins. related reforms that need to take place. For example, pre-existing condition exemptions are BS. They should go.

    I just feel we should start with the obvious and the burden of illegals on the healthcare system needs to be addressed as part of this process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    Kwame

    Was a pleasure Discussing it with you.

    I don't disagree with you about many of the Ins. related reforms that need to take place. For example, pre-existing condition exemptions are BS. They should go.

    I just feel we should start with the obvious and the burden of illegals on the healthcare system needs to be addressed as part of this process.
    That's fine, man. I don't disagree about the illegals but the way to change that is to make easier for them to get ID'd and put into our databases. Tax and tag 'em.

    No matter what, the only one who is going to reform or even tighten up on the abuses is our Government. So in essence whether Congress passes some laws or regulation, it will be Government ran Health Care or Regulate Health Care!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Train View Post
    Kwame

    Was a pleasure Discussing it with you.

    I don't disagree with you about many of the Ins. related reforms that need to take place. For example, pre-existing condition exemptions are BS. They should go.

    I just feel we should start with the obvious and the burden of illegals on the healthcare system needs to be addressed as part of this process.
    Would you consider a $60 tongue depressor more or less of a problem than illegals?



    Fuckface.

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