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Thread: Peyton Manning Far From the Greatest.

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    Peyton Manning Far From the Greatest.

    Manning far from greatest
    Wed, 02/10/2010 - 9:11am
    By Kerry Byrne


    Peyton Manning proved Sunday that he doesn't belong in the discussion of the Greatest of All Time. (AP)

    Peyton Manning proved Sunday that he doesn't belong in the discussion of the Greatest of All Time. (AP)
    Is the “Peyton Manning is the Greatest of All Time” debate finally over?

    Let’s hope so. It would be nice to turn on a radio or open a newspaper again without feeling nauseous.

    Never in the long, shameful history of over-indulgent and factually challenged pre-Super Bowl analysis has there been a more concerted and unfounded effort to jam a square peg of hype into the round hole of historical truth than the one we witnessed this year.

    The pigskin “pundits” tried to tell us that Manning was poised to become the Greatest of All Time heading into Super Bowl XLIV. The Cold, Hard Football Facts, of course, told us that Manning wasn’t even going to be the best quarterback on the field on Super Bowl Sunday, let alone the best ever.

    The Cold, Hard Football Facts, of course, were correct. The pigskin “pundits” were wrong. Did anybody who watched Super Bowl XLIV believe after the game that Manning was better than Drew Brees, let alone the best who ever played?

    Didn’t think so.

    But they should have known all this ahead of time. You simply had to look at the numbers from the Cold, Hard Football Facts, which flatly refutes the Manning as G-O-A-T argument.

    Sadly, though, the “Manning is the Greatest of All Time” issue will arise again next season because the football world can not let it go. The pigskin “punditry” declared Manning the Chosen One soon after he was born of the Virgin Olivia in 1976. The “punditry” has vested a lot of time, ink and energy in perpetuating the myth that he’s the best we’ve ever seen.

    So they’re committed to perpetuating this ideology rather than the truth, much like former newspapers such as The Boston Globe are more committed to perpetuating a political ideology rather than reporting the news.

    The ideology is why, for example, Manning was named NFL MVP in 2009 despite the fact that players such as Super Bowl MVP Drew Brees were better quarterbacks and had better seasons by every conceivable measure of success.

    We actually have a name for this phenomenon over at Cold, Hard Football Facts: we call it Spinal Manningitis. It’s a disease that eats away at the central nervous system of the pigskin “pundits” and renders them incapable of analyzing football or accepting the truth that Manning is a great quarterback but not even in the discussion of best of all time.

    Amnesia, meanwhile, is another symptom of Spinal Manningitis.

    Victims of SM in the sports media quickly will forget that Manning wasn’t even the best quarterback in the NFL in 2009, let alone the best of all time. They’ll forget he wasn’t even the best quarterback on the field in Super Bowl XLIV, let alone the best of all time. And they’ll certainly forget yet another in a long line of subpar playoff performances by Manning in the biggest game of the year.

    They’ll forget that the Indy offense woefully underperformed in Super Bowl XLIV, scoring just 17 points against a porous defense, and they’ll most certainly forget that, with the Super Bowl on the line in the fourth quarter, Manning threw a crushing pick-six — a moment certainly not worthy of G-O-A-T status.

    (If all this sounds familiar to you, including the selective amnesia, it should. These were also the symptoms we found among members of the Cult of Dan Marino in the 1980s and 1990s.)

    So rest assured that, some time in the 2010 season, when the Colts produce another 12- or 13-win season, the “Manning=G-O-A-T” issue will arise again.

    When it does, here are some Cold, Hard Football Facts you need to store away in your arsenal of analysis so that you can blow up that debate in about two seconds.

    1
    That’s the number of epic goal-line stands the Indy defense produced in Super Bowl XLIV. The Saints faced first-and-goal at the 3, second-and-goal from the 8 (after a penalty), third-and-goal from the 1 and fourth-and-goal from the 1 and failed to score.

    Victims of Spinal Manningitis, much like members of the Cult of Dan Marino, always blame the defense first. But the truth is that the very good Indy defense surrendered just six first-half points (and 24 overall) against the NFL’s No. 1 offense and made enough big plays — including this epic goal-line stand against the league’s best offense — to keep the Colts in the game.

    A team armed with that kind of playmaking defense and with the Greatest of All Time quarterback probably would have found a way to win.

    5
    That’s the number of times in the past eight seasons that Manning has played with a defense that ranked in the top eight in scoring. The Colts were No. 8 in the NFL in scoring defense in 2009. The Saints, for their part, ranked No. 20 in scoring defense.

    The 2005 Colts ranked No. 1 in scoring defense; the 2007 Colts ranked No. 1 in scoring defense. Neither team won a playoff game.

    But blaming the defense is the old crutch of the excuse-makers. For example, you probably didn’t know that Dan Marino twice played with the No. 1 scoring defense in the NFL. It doesn’t fit the storyline of the heroic gunslinger victimized by the bad defense.

    Same goes for Manning: Noting that he’s spent half his career playing with a Super Bowl champion-caliber defense doesn’t fit the storyline.

    0-8
    That’s the record of quarterbacks who throw a pick-six in the Super Bowl. Manning now joins that inglorious list with the likes of Fran Tarkenton, Kerry Collins and Kurt Warner, who did it not once but twice, first against the Patriots in Super Bowl XXXVI and last year against the Steelers in Super Bowl XLIII.

    A pick-six in the Super Bowl is a death sentence. And it’s a death sentence that was issued by Manning himself in the biggest moment of Super Bowl XLIV.

    9-9
    That’s Manning’s record as a postseason quarterback. That’s .500, and last we checked, .500 was considered “very average” not “Greatest of All Time.”

    Here’s how some other notable contemporary and all-time great quarterbacks:

    Bart Starr — 9-1 (.900)
    Ben Roethlisberger — 8-2 (.800)
    Tom Brady — 14-4 (.778)
    Joe Montana — 16-7 (.696)
    Troy Aikman — 11-5 (.688)
    Drew Brees — 4-2 (.667)

    In each case, these quarterbacks won more frequently in the postseason than they did in a regular season. In other words, their teams were better in the playoffs than they were in the regular season. 

The all-time great teams and quarterbacks step it up in the playoffs. Manning and his teams clearly step down in the playoffs.

    14.0
    This is one number that, all by itself, refutes the notion of Manning as the G-O-A-T.

    It’s the pathetic number of points the Colts have averaged in their nine Manning Era playoff losses. That’s bad, real bad, especially when you consider that the Colts routinely head to the playoffs with an elite regular-season offense.

    Manning apologists can and will blame the defense for Indy’s playoff woes. Heck, 48 hours after the Super Bowl, Manning cultist Colin Cowherd was on his radio show already blaming the defense for Manning’s playoff woes.

    But the 14.0 PPG figure says it all pretty clearly: the Colts lose playoff games because their quarterback and their offense go in the tank each and every postseason.

    Super Bowl XLIV was a classic example. The Colts averaged a very good 26.1 PPG in 2009; they were up against one of the worst defenses in the league, a Saints unit that had surrendered 21.3 PPG (20th in the NFL).

    Yet when push came to shove in the biggest game of the year, Manning and the habitually underachieving Indy offense produced just 17 points, including a meager seven points over the final three quarters.

    Once again, Manning’s performances fell drastically when the games counted most.

    19
    That’s the number of interceptions Manning has thrown in 18 playoff games, including the back-breaking pick that was returned for a touchdown by Saints cornerback Tracy Porter in Super Bowl XLIV.

    We’ve discussed the importance of playoff picks here and elsewhere over the past couple years. Quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. The math could not be simpler.

    INTs=losses

    And Manning throws picks in the playoffs, better than one per game.

    Drew Brees, No. 2 all time in postseason passer rating, has thrown just two picks in six playoff games and 225 pass attempts (0.89 percent). That’s the lowest playoff INT rate in history.

    Bart Starr, the greatest playoff quarterback in history, threw just three picks in 10 playoff games and 213 pass attempts (1.41 percent). That was the lowest playoff INT rate in history for four decades, until Brees broke the mark this year.

    Manning, not even in the discussion of all-time postseason passer rating leaders, has thrown 19 picks in 18 playoff games and 692 attempts (2.75 percent). It’s actually fairly consistent with his INT rate in the regular season: He’s thrown 181 picks in 192 games and 6,531 attempts (2.77 percent).

    But, once again, you’d expect the G-O-A-T to improve the playoffs. Once again, Manning does not improve in the playoffs.

    19.2
    The number of points the Colts defense surrendered per game in 2009, No. 8 among scoring defenses.

    21.3
    That the number of points the Saints surrendered per game in 2009, No. 20 among scoring defenses.

    The Greatest QB of All Time managed to put up just 17 points against that defense in the Super Bowl, including just one touchdown over the final three quarters.

    And if anyone could have leaned on a porous defense as an excuse, it would have been Drew Brees and the Saints.

    85.4
    That’s Manning’s passer rating in two Super Bowls — 10 points below his regular-season average.

    The Greatest of All Time would raise his game in the Super Bowl. Manning has had two chances now and has underperformed in both Super Bowls.

    87.6
    That’s Manning’s passer rating in 18 playoff games — nearly eight points below his regular-season average.

    Once again: bigger games, lower performances.

    95.2
    That’s Manning’s regular-season passer rating, fourth all time behind Steve Young (96.8), Philip Rivers (95.8) and Tony Romo (95.6).

    It’s a great number for Manning, and he’s done it over far more games, years and attempts than those other quarterbacks high on the leaderboard. But if you consider “stepping it up” in the playoffs something required of the Greatest of All Time,” then Manning certainly fails badly in that respect.

    In fact, his performances decline dramatically in the playoffs.

    103.7
    That’s Brees’ postseason passer rating, the second-best mark in history. Brees, in other words, has stepped up his performances in the playoffs.

    104.8
    That’s the postseason passer rating of the great and completely underrated Bart Starr, and that’s No. 1 in history.

    Starr was considered something of a role player on talent-laden Packers teams. But the truth is that he’s the only quarterback in history with a ring for every finger of his throwing hand because he passed the ball better in the playoffs than any quarterback in history.

    It’s a also a number that puts Manning’s 87.6 postseason passer rating to shame. Manning plays most of his games indoors or in warm weather and has the benefit of rules intended to favor the passer. Starr played outdoors, often in mind-numbing cold, and played in an era when defenders could maul receivers and quarterbacks.

    Yet Starr clearly was a much better and more productive quarterback in the playoffs than Manning.

    If Manning had produced in the playoffs like Starr did, he probably be sporting five rings himself these days. But he didn’t. And he’s not.

    Here’s what Manning is:

    He’s a future Hall of Fame quarterback with an accurate arm and quick mind who’s had the benefit of playing his entire career with great receivers and pretty good defenses in a stat-inflating dome. He’s a great quarterback and a good guy who has a long list of people across the nation invested in touting him the best ever. He makes funny commercials and seems to have a great family. He’s a Hall of Fame quarterback who plays very well in the regular season but not so hot in the postseason.

    He’s a great quarterback, in other words. But simply not in the discussion of Greatest of All Time.

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    mmmmm..sort WEEI, is a Boston fan site, is it not?

    a bit bias. It'd be like asking a Browns fan his opinion of Ben Roethlisberger.
    Still waiting for a relevant Browns Team

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    bart starr=the greatest. numbers don't lie.
    Another one of those classic genius posts, sure to generate responses. You log on the next day to see what your witty gem has produced to find no one gets it and 2 knotheads want to stick their dicks in it... Well played, sir!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PETE'S BROTHER View Post
    bart starr=the greatest. numbers don't lie.
    Otto Graham and his ten straight championship game apperances would kindly like to disagree with you,

    Though, I do admire Starr and those 60's Packers as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PETE'S BROTHER View Post
    bart starr=the greatest. numbers don't lie.

    Take all the numbers you want. With the game on the line, 1 minute left, and a final shot at the lead...there is only one QB I would want leading that charge....




    Joe Montana.
    “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    mmmmm..sort WEEI, is a Boston fan site, is it not?

    a bit bias. It'd be like asking a Browns fan his opinion of Ben Roethlisberger.
    Oh, please do !!

    Ben Roethlisberger — 8-2 (.800)

    Two Super Bowl Rings.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    Oh, please do !!

    Ben Roethlisberger — 8-2 (.800)

    Two Super Bowl Rings.....
    Did I say anything bad about the guy? . It was a general blanket statement that most Browns fans aren't exactly fans of the guy, so their opinion of him would be fairly negative.

    I think he's auctually the 2nd coming of this guy, bro.



    Personally, I despise the guy, and consider him a traitor to the Buckeye state , BUT, that doesn't mean I don't think he's a great player at the moment and deserves to be in the conversation with Manning, Brady and Brees.

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    Don't most Browns fans hate, well, everyone ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    Don't most Browns fans hate, well, everyone ???
    lets see..

    we hate:

    Art Modell
    Anything related to the Steelers
    Anything related to the Rats
    John Elway
    Belichick (though that's sort of erroded)

    You guys don't hate the Browns back? Damn, gotta have them win a couple more games to whip that rivalry back into shape. Though knocking you guys out of the playoffs sort of helped .

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    Quote Originally Posted by PETE'S BROTHER View Post
    bart starr=the greatest. numbers don't lie.
    Bart Star - almost like a porno name. Before porno names became popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    Bart Star - almost like a porno name. Before porno names became popular.
    No, it's Bart StarR, with two r's, baby...

    Incidentally, I think Otto Graham may have been perhaps the world's worst porno name if it were ever adopted by a porn star...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Incidentally, I think Otto Graham may have been perhaps the world's worst porno name if it were ever adopted by a porn star...
    I dunno Nick, kinda hard to top Dirk Diggler...









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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    lets see..


    You guys don't hate the Browns back? Damn, gotta have them win a couple more games to whip that rivalry back into shape. Though knocking you guys out of the playoffs sort of helped .
    Nobody hates the Browns. They're too busy laughing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    mmmmm..sort WEEI, is a Boston fan site, is it not?

    a bit bias. It'd be like asking a Browns fan his opinion of Ben Roethlisberger.
    I didn't see a bias against the Booger Picker in the article. It's all true.
    Manning is a great QB (hall of fame certain) but he gets sooo much smoke blown up his ass by the media he's like a fucking chimney.
    And besides, he's kind of a choke artist.

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    Johnny U was the best and its really not close !! He had to throw a bigger ball !! Didn't have all the pussy rule's to save his ass from getting killed on every drop back. won championships and retired with all the passing records !! Joe Montana is probably second because he didn't have the Q.B.S are pussies rules so don't hit them either. And he won alot of big games. The first 2 Super Bowls tell me alot. No Rice or Roger Craig. I don't think the ring's are the tell all though, otherwise Bradshaw would be up there too. He was good but not great. Aikman was average at best. I did like him but he was no Elway or Marino. Those guys were awsome. Brady and Manning are in the top ten but at the bottom of the list. Unitas, Elway, Montana, Graham and Favre are my top 5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    With all due respect, no fucking way Big Ben's the second coming of Elway.

    He's got a lot more to do to be there.

    Fine, two rings but he's definitely not as clutch as Elway.

    As far as the modern era goes, Brady's still the QB I'd want if I were down with a minute to go. He's proven more than a couple of times that he can get it done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAX View Post
    With all due respect, no fucking way Big Ben's the second coming of Elway.

    He's got a lot more to do to be there.

    Fine, two rings but he's definitely not as clutch as Elway.

    As far as the modern era goes, Brady's still the QB I'd want if I were down with a minute to go. He's proven more than a couple of times that he can get it done.
    I don't know man.

    YouTube - Big Ben's Big Drive - Superbowl 43

    That Super Bowl XLII drive, sort of confirmed my fears and elevated him to that status, add the Packers game this year, and I've seen him break Browns fans hearts a couple of times.

    YouTube - Pittsburgh Steelers Game Winning Touchdown against Green Bay Packers HD 12-20-09

    If there's anybody out of this group of QB's who I'd say are as good as Elway, it's gotta be him. He may have a long way to go, but he's getting there pretty quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadaist View Post
    Take all the numbers you want. With the game on the line, 1 minute left, and a final shot at the lead...there is only one QB I would want leading that charge....

    Joe Montana.
    Nail on the head!

    Quote Originally Posted by MAX View Post
    As far as the modern era goes, Brady's still the QB I'd want if I were down with a minute to go. He's proven more than a couple of times that he can get it done.
    Nail on the head!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    I don't know man.

    YouTube - Big Ben's Big Drive - Superbowl 43

    That Super Bowl XLII drive, sort of confirmed my fears and elevated him to that status, add the Packers game this year, and I've seen him break Browns fans hearts a couple of times.

    YouTube - Pittsburgh Steelers Game Winning Touchdown against Green Bay Packers HD 12-20-09

    If there's anybody out of this group of QB's who I'd say are as good as Elway, it's gotta be him. He may have a long way to go, but he's getting there pretty quick.
    Even though you either weren't alive or you still hadn't decided which end of the playpen smelled the worst, I DID witness the "drive" along with countless other game winning drives. There's a reason Elway holds the record for most fouth quarter comebacks. They might not have been in huge games like Montana but he's still the most clutch QB of all time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAX View Post
    Even though you either weren't alive or you still hadn't decided which end of the playpen smelled the worst,
    I still havn't. . In all seriousness, the only thing I have to go off Elway was the Super Bowls towards the end of the 90's, it doesn't mean I havn't watched the NFL films of "The Drive" and "The Fumble"

    Damn, I've heard reports from Cleveland fans prior to "The Drive", saying the stadium was rocking with chants of "Pasadena" after the Brennan TD catch, my dad says up in Akron, where he was living at the time, you could bounce a basketball across the interstate, they all thought that it was the year..and then...well...

    Was curious, what's the Denver fan perpestive on it? Did you guys even have a doubt Elway would do it and the Browns would choke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAX View Post
    Fine, two rings but he's definitely not as clutch as Elway.

    As far as the modern era goes, Brady's still the QB I'd want if I were down with a minute to go. He's proven more than a couple of times that he can get it done.
    You mean like Big Ben did in the Super Bowl to win it ??

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    Stats are great, but what did they ever get Dan Marino?

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    How many times has Peyton been sacked ??
    Seems like he is a Chinese Panda, when he has the ball
    he is a protected species, protected by large black dudes.

    Man, how cool would it be ??
    Accurate thrower who can spot offensive dudes
    (running backs)
    catching zone... And the whole team protecting ya !
    Bit different to Aussie Rules where everyone gets
    smashed equally...

    I can see how it would be so cool to be a high profile
    quarterback...
    In hard football, the mannings seem a little light in the loafers
    Last edited by Panamark; 02-11-2010 at 03:10 AM.
    BABY PANA 2 IS Coming !! All across the land, let the love and beer flow !
    Love ya Mary Frances!

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    Comparing Big Ben to Elway is laughable at best IMO.

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    Well, RIGHT NOW, I would probably agree...

    Let's see how he does in the next 10 years....

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    Agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    You mean like Big Ben did in the Super Bowl to win it ??
    Well, Big Ben and the officials.

    Sorry, grudge-holding Seahawks fan here...
    ROTH ARMY MILITIA


    Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
    Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

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    You are probably talking about the other SB anyway, but I couldn't resist!

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    Manning is all right for a dork. A uber rich dork who will sell his soul to just about any product out there. His numbers are impressive, his playing unmatched but geeeesh what a sore incapacitated loser.


    "Kiss me"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    Manning is all right for a dork. A uber rich dork who will sell his soul to just about any product out there. His numbers are impressive, his playing unmatched but geeeesh what a sore incapacitated loser.


    "Kiss me"
    that snl skit with the kids was fuckin' funny tho

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Shark View Post
    Well, Big Ben and the officials.

    Sorry, grudge-holding Seahawks fan here...

    Oh for Christ sakes, here we go again....



    For the last time, it was a fucking touchdown !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    Oh for Christ sakes, here we go again....



    For the last time, it was a fucking touchdown !!
    YouTube - Seahawks got screwed

    What about the Pass Interference call on Darrell Jackson (which would have been? or when Haggans was offsides, and the OT had to grab him in order to slow him down and make sure he didn't het to Hasselbeck?

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    This one?

    <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ch-erbmxO4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ch-erbmxO4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

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    yup, thanx. my internet usage is limited here at work.

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    They were both push-offs, they should have been penalties....

    Funny you don't mention the others...

    How come they couldn't stop Parker on a 75 yard TD run ?

    How come they couldn't stop Randle El on the TD pass to Ward ??

    Yet they still comeback with the pass interference....

    Learn some objectivity and answer those questions FIRST....

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    I would go with either Elway or Montana. I saw both of there careers in there entirety. Both those guys were simply unbelievable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    You mean like Big Ben did in the Super Bowl to win it ??
    I'd still take Brady. He's shown thus far to be a hell of a lot more consistant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_R View Post
    Comparing Big Ben to Elway is laughable at best IMO.
    Amen to that 'ol buddy.

    IF and only IF these Steelers pull off another title will I start gleaming in their glory. However, I do not accept them as the sheeoootttt just cos of their claim to six titles.

    I'll certainly give credit where it's due and that's to the Steelers of the 70's and not this version.

    There's no comparisson whatsoever!!!

    Viva Lambert, Greenwood, Webster, Bradshaw, Blier, Harris, Stallworth, Greene, Swann, Knoll and the rest!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Shark View Post
    Well, Big Ben and the officials.

    Sorry, grudge-holding Seahawks fan here...
    It's happened before. Ask any Oiler fan about the touchdown that was taken away in the '79 AFC Championship.

    Bad calls are bad calls and the SB with the Hawks was an extremely poorly officiated Super Bowl.

    This is coming from an unbiased fan who couldn't have given a rat's ass which team won. The Seahawks were undoubtedly called for both any and every ticky tack foul the ref's could manage.

    End of story!!!

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