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Thread: 200 Million Million Jesus's

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    200 Million Million Jesus's

    On a moonless night when 'the stars look very cold about the sky, and the only clouds to be seen are the glowing smudges of the milky way, go out to a place far from street light pollution, lie on the grass and gaze up at the sky.

    Because of light's finite speed, when you look at the great galaxy in andromeda you are seeing it as it was 2.3 million years ago and australopithecus stalked the high veldt. You are looking back in time.

    Shift your eyes a few degrees to the nearest bright star in the constellation of Andromeda and you see Mirach, but much more recently, as it was when Wall Street crashed. The sun, when you witness its colour and shape, is only eight minutes ago. But point a large telescope at the sombrero galaxy and you behold a trillion suns as they were when your tailed ancestors peered shyly through the canopy and india collided with asia to raise the himalayas. A collision on a larger scale, between two
    galaxies in stephan's quintet, is shown to us at a time when on earth dinosaurs were dawning and the trilobites fresh dead.

    Name any event in history and you will find a star out there whose light gives you a glimpse of something happening during the year of that event. Provided you are not a very young child, somewhere up in the night sky you can find your personal birth star. Its light is a thermonuclear glow
    that heralds the year of your birth. Indeed, you can find quite a few such stars (about 40 if you are 40; about 70 if you are 50; about 175 if you are 80 years old). When you look at one of your birth year stars, your telescope is a time machine letting you witness thermonuclear events that are actually taking place during the year you were born. A pleasing conceit, but that is all. Your birth star will not deign to tell anything about your personality, your future or your sexual compatibilities. The stars have larger agendas in which the preoccupations of human pettiness do not figure.

    Your birth star, of course, is yours for only this year. Next year you must look to the surface of a larger sphere one light year more distant. Think of this expanding sphere as a radius of good news, the news of your birth broadcast steadily outwards. In the einsteinian universe in which most
    physicists now think we live, nothing can in principle travel faster than light. So, if you are 50 years old, you have a personal news bubble of 50 light years' radius. Within that sphere (of a little more than a thousand stars) it is in principle possible (although obviously not in practice) for news of your existence to have permeated. Outside that sphere you might as well not exist; in an einsteinian sense you do not exist. Older people have larger existence spheres than younger people, but nobody's existence extends to more than a tiny fraction of the universe.

    The birth of jesus may seem an ancient and momentous event to us as we reach his second millenary. But the news is so recent on this scale that, even in the most ideal circumstances, it could in principle have been proclaimed to less than one 200 million millionth of the stars in the universe. Many, if not most, of the stars out there will be orbited by planets. The numbers are so vast that probably some of them have life forms, some have evolved intelligence and technology.

    Yet the distances and times that separate us are so great that thousands of life forms could independently evolve and go extinct without it being possible for any to know of the existence of any other.
    Richard Dawkins - Unweaving the Rainbow
    Last edited by Seshmeister; 12-20-2010 at 08:49 PM.

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    It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

    In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

    This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.

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    This message will take the form of a simulated discussion between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.

    Chris: Joe can you explain to me why Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas?

    Joe: Sure, Chris. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas because we do not participate in pagan celebrations, and we know that Jesus was not born on December 25.

    Chris: Why do you call Christmas a pagan celebration? Certainly celebrating God's gift of his son would not qualify as a pagan celebration.

    Joe: December 25 is the date of the winter solstice and Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was strong at Rome.

    Chris: So what you are saying is that Christians celebrated a pagan celebration and just continued to do so by changing its name.

    Joe: That's right, Chris.

    Chris: Were you aware that this is not what the Watchtower originally taught was the origin of Christmas?

    Joe: What do you mean?

    Chris: In The Time is at Hand, Vol. 2 of the Studies in the Scriptures on page 61 it discusses the date of the birth of Christ. It says "...we could not be certain that the exact day might not be in September about the 27th, but October 1st, B.C. is about correct. Nine months back of that date would bring us to about Christmas time, 3 B.C., as the date at which our Lord laid aside the glory which he had with the Father before the world was made and the taking of or changing to human nature began. It seems probable that this was the origin of the celebration of December 25th as Christmas Day. Some writers on Church history claim, even, that Christmas Day was originally celebrated as the date of the annunciation by Gabriel to the virgin Mary." Joe, the Watchtower at one time agreed with Church history that the origin of Christmas was the celebration of the gift of God's son from his conception. Just because this conception happened around a pagan celebration does not make it pagan. If celebrating the gift of God's son is so wrong, how come God allowed the celebration for so long before the Watchtower ever declared it wrong?

    Joe: I know that the Watchtower used to celebrate Christmas but when they learned that it was tied into paganism, they stopped celebrating it.

    Chris: In the December 15, 1903 Watchtower, Charles Russell wrote concerning Christmas that even though he did not agree with the date which he said wasn't important, he said "..we may properly enough join with all whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Saviour." Both Charles Russell and Joseph Rutherford your first and second presidents celebrated Christmas and even encouraged others to participate in the celebration and to give Watchtower books as gifts. All this was at a time when the Watchtower says that Jesus was inspecting all churches to see which he would pick as the only "faithful and wise servant". How is it that celebrating the gift of God's son was alright back then but now is such a bad thing that a person can lose his everlasting life? How is it that God allowed Christians for almost two thousand years to honor the gift of his Son and then suddenly changed his mind?

    Joe: I'm not sure how to answer you. I know that I used to celebrate Christmas as a small child before my family became Witnesses and I never thought it was wrong then. But now I have learned things like the wise men were dupes of Satan, led by a Satanic star. The whole Christmas scene was led by
    Satan not God.

    Chris: I would be interested in talking with you about the star of Bethlehem and the wise men. Could we get together next week to discuss this?

    Joe: Sure.
    Go to part two: Is the Star of Bethlehem Satan's star?

    http://www.jwinfoline.com/Documents/...tmas_pagan.htm




    Why not celebrate Christmas or Jesus birth?
    In: Christmas,



    ANSWER

    Christmas is not actually the celebration of Jesus birth. It is actually a pagan celebration to the sun god. It was the early Catholic Church about 400 years after Jesus died that took the pagan celebration, changed the name to "Christ's Mass," and called it "Christian." We have a problem with that, because we believe as the Bible says at 2 Corinthians 6:14-16, that God will not have anything to do with what is associated with unclean worship. So, we do not engage in celebrations that come from pagan sources.

    We do not celebrate Jesus birthday, or birthdays in general because of the pagan sources that birthday celebrations also come from. Jesus and the disciples and even the first Christians did not celebrate birthdays. They regarded them as pagan. Birthday celebrations actually originated in pagan religion. They were celebrated as a way to appease the god of the astrological sign that a person was born under. Even the "birthday wish" was made to that pagan god or godess. Since these gods of the constalations are rival gods to the true GOD, ancient Jews and early Christians did not engage in birthday celebrations for fear that t would violate GOD's law on exclusive worship and devotion to HIM.(Exodus 20:3) Likewise today, JW's follow this same line of reasoning. We do not want to compromise our devotion and worship to the only one a true GOD, Jehovah.

    For further reading click on RELATE LINKS (below)

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:

    "The date of Christ's birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month. According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the "dies natalis Solis Invicti" (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274 A.D., Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. {(1967), Vol. III, p. 656}. So, the date Dec. 25 was chosen to coincide with Sun worship.

    As an illustration: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman's home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He doesn't favor the celebration of birthdays. He doesn't like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man's enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? How would you feel? Would you want to be a party to it? Jehovah's Witnesses follow the Bible completely, taking into consideration how God feels about false worship and how Jesus taught us to live our lives. This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations.

    Addition: The reason christianity adopted christmas was because their efforts to convert the pagans were failing. So they adopted their winter celebration, put Christ in the center and there you go- Christmas


    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Jeh...#ixzz18hyf7gZi



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    Annie Christian wanted
    To be number one
    But her kingdom never comes
    Thy will be done

    She couldn't stand the glory
    She will be second to none
    The way Annie tells the story
    She's his only son

    Annie Christian wanted
    To be a big star
    So she moved to Atlanta
    And she bought a blue car

    She killed black children
    And what's fair is fair
    If you try and say you're crazy
    Everybody say electric chair
    Electric chair

    Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    Until you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs
    Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    'Til you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs

    Annie Christian was a whore
    Always looking for some fun
    Being good was such a bore
    So she bought a gun

    She killed John Lennon
    Shot him down cold
    She tried to kill Reagan
    Everybody say gun control
    Gun control

    Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    Until you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs
    Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    'Til you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs

    Liar, liar, liar
    Gotcha in a jam
    Put your head on the block
    Somebody say ABSCAM, ABSCAM

    Annie, Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    Until you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs
    Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
    'Til you're crucified
    I'll live my life in taxicabs
    "I have heard there are troubles of more than one kind. - Some come from ahead and some come from behind. - But I've bought a big bat. I'm all ready you see. - Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!" ~ Dr. Seuss
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Winning a theological argument with a Jehovah's witness is a bit like beating a 4 year old at chess. After cutting the kids hands off.

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    I just report it, Sesh....
    The fact that Dec 25 is not Jesus birthday is old news.

    So, how is the family, Sesh? Has the winter treated you to any memories?

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    Angry

    I am worried about that hostile race out there that discovered classic Van Halen four years ago and has been cranking it while conquering planets ever since. They are going to be PISSED when they hear of the breakup and are going to come here looking for answers.
    I can hear the intergalactic space reporter now,
    "Eddie Van Halen gets earth destroyed...More Milky Way news after this..."
    ~Only you can prevent low volume~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

    In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

    This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.
    My son, why do ye trouble yourself making up all these reasons to doubt My story? Have ye read "The Martian Chronicles" by Ray Bradbury? There's an interesting account in there of how I might have revealed Myself to a form of life different to you mortals of Earth.

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    All the people in the universe live here on earth...

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    Why do ye thinketh that, Gregory?

    For verily I say unto you, that if ye believeth that Dad & I created the Universe and all that is in it, then why would We make 99.999999999999% of it without life?

    Trust Me, We aren't that bored that We would just create a bunch of lifeless galaxies for no reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    All the people in the universe live here on earth...
    I think that is the only explanation that fits with the Christian mythology.

    But if that is the case why would your god create 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 other suns with no one there?

    It makes it pretty fucking hard to feel special doesn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

    In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

    This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.
    Sorry I had been out for a few beers when I posted this and it may be the most wrong thing I've ever said.

    I posted we would need 200 000 000 Jesus's when of course I should have said 200 000 000 000 000 Jesus's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus Christ View Post
    Why do ye thinketh that, Gregory?
    Because God wanted it that way...

    God put his greatest creation here...on EARTH!

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    So all the other billions of planets out there are just sitting there for no reason at all?

    Sorry, I can't believe that. It's also actually insulting to God if you believe this fucked up planet is the best He could do.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Because God wanted it that way...

    God put his greatest creation here...on EARTH!
    aw shucks, thanx...
    Another one of those classic genius posts, sure to generate responses. You log on the next day to see what your witty gem has produced to find no one gets it and 2 knotheads want to stick their dicks in it... Well played, sir!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    So all the other billions of planets out there are just sitting there for no reason at all?

    Sorry, I can't believe that. It's also actually insulting to God if you believe this fucked up planet is the best He could do.
    We seriously need a JACKASS button...


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    Guess who it gets used on first?

    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    We seriously need a JACKASS button...

    Yep, for when idiots like you make arrogant statements like "We're alone in the universe" or that we're "God's greatest creation"...

    Actually, not sure if statements like that are more arrogant than they are short-sighted - to the point of retardation. It's fucking moronic to think we're unique in the universe, ESPECIALLY when scientists and astronomers are finding more galaxies with Earth-similar planets with increasing regularity.

    But of course, zealots can't accept it (or even consider the possibility) because it flies in the face of their superstitious BULLSHIT..."I know that cain't be true cuz the Baaaaahble sez so!"

  17. #17
    Fuck this and fuck that
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    He can't even use the Bible as an excuse now, because Jesus Himself said so right here in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    All the people in the universe live here on earth...
    is it so hard to believe that an infinitely loving God would have the capacity for more than just 6 billion beings to love?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    All the people in the universe live here on earth...
    Possibly quite true. But Predators aren't "people".


    “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by knuckleboner View Post
    is it so hard to believe that an infinitely loving God would have the capacity for more than just 6 billion beings to love?

    Love? Any being that would allow anything to burn in agony for an eternity certainly has no capacity for love.

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    back in '85, i used to talk shite and play cvh over the cb radio.
    those radio waves are still out there, 25 light years away!

    awesome.

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    Plus, remember these recent news as well...there are way more stars than previously found. It multiplies the previous numbers with at least three...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11888362

    Astronomers say the Universe may contain three times the number of stars as is currently thought.

    Their assessment is based on new observations showing other galaxies may have very different structures to our Milky Way galaxy.

    The researchers tell the journal Nature that more stars probably means many more planets as well - perhaps "trillions" of Earth-like worlds.

    The Yale University-led study used the Keck telescope in Hawaii.

    It found that galaxies older than ours contain 20 times more red dwarf stars than more recent ones.

    Red dwarfs are smaller and dimmer than our own Sun; it is only recently that telescopes have been powerful enough to detect them.

    According to Yale's Professor Pieter van Dokkum, who led the research, the discovery also increases the estimate for the number of planets in the Universe and therefore greatly increases the likelihood of life existing elsewhere in the cosmos.

    "There are possibly trillions of Earths orbiting these stars," he said. "Red dwarfs are typically more than 10 billion years old and so have been around long enough for complex life to evolve on planets around them. It's one reason why people are interested in this type of star."
    Originally posted by Cato
    Golden, why are you FAT?
    Originally posted by lesfunk
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    Mind-boggling!

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    Billions and Billions and Billions.....

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    It's weird that when discussing the universe we try to wrap our minds around billions & trillions. But when a government throws those numbers around regarding money, it hardly even phases us that they are talking about real dollars and quantities.

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    Christmas is on December 25 because emperor Constantine said so. He decided to spice up the old Roman paganism with a double shot of Christianity and so he called the traditional pagan solstice holiday the Christ mass or as we call it today, Christmas. Simple as that folks.

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    the solar system at scale

    the universe is a big, big place.
    Last edited by ashstralia; 12-27-2010 at 02:34 AM. Reason: link more obv.

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    That's funny I was just saying last night that I was going to do this soon in the local park. The link you posted is the best version I've seen.

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    cheers sesh. worth noting too; the distance to the NEAREST star, proxima centauri is about 250000x the earth-sun distance.


    whoa.

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    So by the scale above where the Earth is a peppercorn the next nearest star is about 4000 miles away.

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    Just a curious bit of info related to this: With current technology, it would take a space craft aprox 2.5 years to reach Mars...one way. No, we're not going there anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    So by the scale above where the Earth is a peppercorn the next nearest star is about 4000 miles away.

    yeah, mindbending ay?

    brian, if only 10% of all the defence budget were spent on space exploration....

    edit; i used this as a guide, hope i got it roughly correct. earth sun= 1 au
    http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/...uestion19.html
    Last edited by ashstralia; 12-28-2010 at 07:45 AM.

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    "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."

    Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Because God wanted it that way...

    God put his greatest creation here...on EARTH!
    Finally, we are in complete agreement...










    “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
    ― Stephen Hawking

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    haha! 'what's so unpleasant about being drunk?' 'ask a glass of water'.

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    craig, i can't believe you guys eat that garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashstralia View Post
    craig, i can't believe you guys eat that garbage.
    Bizarre, isn't it ash? I honestly can not get my mind around which is worse...someone having the warped temerity and outright cynicism to market this abomination to people, or the public themselves for thinking this is a great idea and long overdue.

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    hehehe.. guess i'm getting old, when i was a 17 yr old pot head that would have been the best 'food' ever

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    Quote Originally Posted by chefcraig View Post
    Bizarre, isn't it ash? I honestly can not get my mind around which is worse...someone having the warped temerity and outright cynicism to market this abomination to people, or the public themselves for thinking this is a great idea and long overdue.


    They're actually pretty damn good - though I imagine the "grilled" version would be slightly "healthier"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chefcraig View Post
    Finally, we are in complete agreement...

    You really think We created that thing??

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