Roth Army Gun Thread

[Jagermeister]

Don't paint any cross hairs on any one in here!


What the hell may as well have one and lets open up the curretly popular Glock 9mm





Wiki link to see some cool stuff about the round : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

About the brand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta...azine_capacity

My from memory stuff about the Glock and the 9mm round:

The pistol 9Glock)fist came on the market sometime in the 80's Thought at the time to be crap becasue it was plastic it quickly became very popular and now has some damn huge market share as far as pistols go. (It's not plastic). Very popular for law enforcement because thay are light, durable and hold alot of rounds. I have shot one before and they are very nice guns. The 9mm itself has been around for ever and really became popular thanks to Mel Gibson and his famous Berretta 9mm. Very popular because it holds 15 rounds. I have also shot one of these and they are the shit! Very nice gun. If I were to own a 9 it would be the Berretta hands down.

As far as the round goes I wouldn't own one. They are popular because you can get them in smaller size weapons that are nice for concealed carry and they typically have a large magazine capacity. More is better is the general rule. I don't subscibe to that.

The round it self is only suitable for close range self defence and at that one shot in most cases won't get ur done. Even with exotic hollow point ammo they have just don't have enough one shot stopping power for me. If I have to shoot somebody I want them down and out even if I fuck up and hit um in the leg. But many people do carry them and really like them. In fact many law enforcement's have gone from the 9mm to the better and more powerful .40 S&W. The dabate on the effectiveness of the round has gone on for ages. Please search the net if you are intersted in the debate.



I don't think we have a huge gun following here but hey if you have any others you are curious about please ask. I am no expert but have been intersted in guns since I was 10. I know alot them. It's just a hobby not some sceery thing at all.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

you should start a 2011 tour thread...

[Jagermeister]

you should start a 2011 tour thread...

I will when the time comes. It' might be 2012 though.

[chefcraig]

Not for nothing, but sadaist started a pretty nifty gun thread a while back in NON:
GUNS - firearms - weaponry

[Va Beach VH Fan]

And this is in the Locker Room because.....

[Seshmeister]

...people like to pretend guns are about the sport?

[Jagermeister]

And this is in the Locker Room because.....

Um, err I fugured you needed an excuse to put that red user name to use?

[Jagermeister]

Shooting is a sport?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Um, err I fugured you needed an excuse to put that red user name to use?

Didn't you hear? I only have that red user name to put on my resume....

[chefcraig]

Didn't you hear? I only have that red user name to put on my resume....

Are you saying your resume is in color? Well, I guess that's OK...if you are applying for a job in marketing, cosmetics or the fashion industry.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I don't know, maybe the boys on Howdy Doody Mountain need someone to get the band with the fucking 21st century....

[Jagermeister]

Didn't you hear? I only have that red user name to put on my resume....

Well it could look better on a bigger ass hole. j/k Glad to see it actually.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Didn't you hear? I only have that red user name to put on my resume....

and jagy's name is white....

[sadaist]

Long time ago I bought a whole fucking case of these Russian 9mm bullets. CHEAP. But since they were just for the target range I figured WTF. Damn things jammed a lot. Still have a couple 100 of them. But I keep 1 clip full with top of the line hollow points. That's the one by the side of the bed. For everything else the Russian crap bullets work fine.

I love the green metal ammo boxes though. Get them at the army/navy supply store for $5. I keep old fishing reels in 1, gun cleaning supplies in another, and one in the truck to carry a spare quart of oil, rags, & other road fix necessities. Great boxes.

[Jagermeister]

This is what I own in 45acp.

[Jagermeister]

like I said. If I miss and hit someone in the leg I want to make sure they still get close to death.

[Jagermeister]

I'll do a little diddty on this load tomorrow maybe. And talk about the now no longer available (mostly)Black Talon ammo.

[sadaist]

Hollow points go in the size of a quarter...and come out the size of a dinner plate. Serious stopping power. In the movies you think any bullet is gonna stop someone dead in their tracks. But it's far from that. Especially if people are using small guage. Although, I would really like to buy this if I ever have the extra money.

[binnie]

Have any of you ever had to use your guns in a real situation?

[Jagermeister]

Have any of you ever had to use your guns in a real situation?

Nope. Not me.

[sadaist]

Have any of you ever had to use your guns in a real situation?

Once

I didn't "use" it, just pulled it. It was not glamorous like the action movies. I didn't feel tough afterward. In fact it took me about an hour at least just to stop trembling and the nausea to go away. It is not a good feeling.

It was dusk and I was at the corner gas station. I was slowly pulling out situating my drink & smokes and I hear screaming from outside. Off in the distance at far end of a mostly empty parking lot between gas station and fast food place was a young guy & 2 young girls (high school age girls. Guy looked college). I look over and they are really screaming at each other.

Then WHAM! Dude knocks the fuck out of 1 girl and she drops like a sack of potatoes. At this point I floor the gas and head that direction. Weird cause I usually flee from conflict. But my body just did it. He turns to the other girl and starts stepping towards her. I hit the brakes and yell at him hey asshole or something. He looks and starts to step towards my car....until he sees my gun aiming at him. He stops dead.

I say something along the lines of get the fuck out of here, you don't fucking hit women, I hate women too but you don't hit them, etc... He leaves.

The girl is now helping her knocked down friend up & both looking at me scared shitless. I put the gun away and STAYED IN THE CAR. I didn't want to freak them out anymore. I told them I would sit here until they walked inside the fast food place to make sure he didn't come back. The one girls says something like "It's ok, that was my ex-boyfriend". Ugh...typical right?

I said he shouldn't be hitting you. And I watched them walk into food place. Then I high tailed it quick in case someone called cops.

All this happened in maybe 2 minutes tops. Felt like eternity. I still get sick a little when I think about it. What if I shot him? What if he charged at me? Could I have pulled the trigger? What if I miss & he gets the gun from me? Now he takes me out & both girls. A million things play out in my head and scare me about the incident.

I'm not a very big dude. Always been on the thin side and not real muscular. Basically I'm not a scrapper. Only been in 2 fist fights my whole life & 1 of those I lost. So I doubt I could have stopped this guy on my own. When you are built like me, you really gain expertise in avoidance and getting out of bad situations.

Point is I got extremely lucky in the 1 time I did "use" my gun in a bad situation. EXTREMELY LUCKY. It wasn't fun and I don't ever want to do that again.

Anyways, that's the gist of it. A little fuzzy because adrenaline is pumping so fast & it comes out like a fuzzy dream when I try to think about it. Guy smacking on girls, I got him to leave. No one got seriously hurt.

[sadaist]

Now I just take these in the car with me. Best protection ever. (except for the stinky flatulence & drool...not the kids) Although, they were supposed to be "protecting" my truck whil I ran into the grocery store. I came out & while a mom was loading her groceries, her toddler behind her was reaching up & feeding them french fries. So not sure how violent they could be if you had food on you.

[Seshmeister]

I wouldn't say what you did was wrong but to me it's unnecessary to have a firearm in that situation. You could just have called the cops and shouted to the asshole that you had. No need to start waving guns around, someone could have got killed in a situation that wasn't life threatening prior to the guns being involved.

The UK is a pretty violent place but our murder rate is much much lower than the US and a lot of the reason is that when there is a conflict usually there isn't a killing device to hand so people survive.

[sadaist]

I wouldn't say what you did was wrong but to me it's unnecessary to have a firearm in that situation. You could just have called the cops and shouted to the asshole that you had. No need to start waving guns around, someone could have got killed in a situation that wasn't life threatening prior to the guns being involved.

I totally agree. I don't ever carry it with me since then. It was scary even though it turned out ok and still bothers me when I think about it. Although calling the cops with the reply time around here wouldn't have done much. But he did knock the fuck out of the one girl. I'm not kidding when I say she dropped cold & didn't move after that. Scared the shit out of me.

[Seshmeister]

I've just seen too many situations with domestic fights where they both end up turning on the good Samaritan. I just wouldn't risk my life getting in the middle of something that probably goes on every other day in any case. I appreciate you couldn't know what the relationships were but cops are trained to deal with situations like that and that's what they're paid for.

If he was kicking her in the head while she was down I guess I would have to get involved but I would really rather not.

I appreciate your honesty in this thread.

It does kind of point to the argument that all this self defence thing with the guns is a bit of a myth though and the figures seem to back it up. The cases where someone defends them self successfully from the bad guy are a lot less common than those where little Jimmy finds a gun and accidentally shoots himself or someone else. Maybe it acts as a bit of a general deterrent to burglary and I can see that playing with them on ranges and so on would be fun but that's about it on the positive side.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

I say something along the lines of get the fuck out of here, you don't fucking hit women, I hate women too but you don't hit them, etc... He leaves.

.

awesome

[Jagermeister]

As a general rule i don't put myself in situations where I would need a gun. That being said I pitty the fool that thinks he is going to make my family a victim of a home invasion which are a real problem around here.
A. They won't get in the door without the dogs going ape shit B. They won't get more than one step in the door before being shot.

The one thing I hear on the radio here to often after an unsuccessful home invasion is" The suspect is in critical condition in a local hospital" Fuck that. That sum bitch could care less if you live or die don't give him the option. If you are going to shoot in self defense make sure you kill the mother fucker. I know that sounds harsh but I mean it. I can live with it as long as I know my family was in danger. No problem for me. That guy or guys ain't going to the hospital.

Around here if you call 911. The first thing they will ask you is if you have a gun. I'll call 911 tell them I have a gun and then use it to the best of my ability. My eyes are not as good as they use to be but I can still shoot pretty damn good becasue I have done it all my life.

[Seshmeister]

I think the home invasion is a bit of a myth.

I would estimate the chances of an average family suffering one is over a million to one.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

I think the home invasion is a bit of a myth.

I would estimate the chances of an average family suffering one is over a million to one.

i wouldn't:tongue0011:

[Jagermeister]

I think the home invasion is a bit of a myth.

I would estimate the chances of an average family suffering one is over a million to one.

Fuck that's bullshit. I hear about one on the news damn near everyday dude.

[Jagermeister]

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/...g&pstart=6&b=1

[PETE'S BROTHER]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-arrested.html

http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Phoe...ox&Form=IE8SRC

[Jagermeister]

As promised some info on the Black Talon. Let it be know some are still around in fact I have some in 45acp. FYI It is not illegal to posess them

http://thegunzone.com/black-talon.html

Winchester Black Talons
The handgun ammo that was just "too good" to survive the pants-wetters.
On Thursday, 1 July 1993, 55-year-old mortgage broker Gian Luigi Ferri entered the San Francisco law offices of Pettit&Martin and opened fire with two Intratec TEC-DC9s and a Colt .45 ACP pistol1. Ferri killed eight and wounded six before turning the gun on himself. Moving through the office, he fired the TEC-9s which were loaded with a combination of Black Talon and conventional ammunition. Ferri ended the lives of some of the wounded with Black Talon rounds from his Colt pistol. Faced with financial problems, Ferri held a grudge against Pettit&Martin because the law firm had represented him in a 1980s trailer-park transaction that had gone bad.

Contemporaneous news reports cited the Black Talons' "razor sharp claws," and the resulting wounds as "devastating and non-survivable." However, a year later at an International Wound Ballistics Association conference, the San Francisco Medical Examiner, Boyd Stevens, M.D., who had conducted the post mortems of the shooting victims stated that the wound trauma produced by the Black Talon was "unremarkable."2

Five months and six days after the Ferri shootings, Colin Ferguson, a native of the Caribbean island of Jamaica, went on a murderous rampage on the Long Island Railroad (NY) with a questionably purchased3 Ruger P89 loaded with 9 X 19mm Black Talon 147-grain rounds, approximately one month following Olin's decision to remove the entire Black Talon brand of ammunition from the Winchester commercial catalogue.

Representative of the anti-gun, anti-Black Talon hyperbole of the period was this over-wrought description of the carnage Ferguson wreaked on unarmed citizens:

“Perhaps a prayer can stop a Black Talon. But a pocketbook probably will not. The bullet is designed to unsheathe its claws once inside the victim's body and tear it to pieces. That's what Colin Ferguson was firing, to the right, then the left, as he walked backward through the third car of the 5:33 train to Hicksville, New York, last Tuesday night. And the passengers who crushed toward the exits or dove under their seats or tried to hide behind their handbags did not stand much of a chance.
– Time Magazine, 20 December 1993
”One can not unreasonably argue that "Black Talon" never really had a chance either... except in the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit: McCarthy v. Olin Corp., 119 F.3d 148 (2d Cir. 1997) which ruled...

“The Black Talon is a hollowpoint bullet designed to bend upon impact into six ninety-degree angle razor-sharp petals or "talons" that increase the wounding power of the bullet by stretching, cutting and tearing tissue and bone as it travels through the victim.

. . .

[P]laintiffs failed to allege the existence of a design defect in the Black Talon because the ammunition must by its very nature be dangerous to be functional. ... The risk of the Black Talon arises from the function of the product, not from a defect in the product.

. . .

The very purpose of the Black Talon bullet is to kill or cause severe wounding.

. . .

Because we hold that the Black Talon bullets were not defectively designed, we must affirm the dismissal of appellants' strict liability claims.”
And that's where the Black Talon issue rests today.

[Jagermeister]

It was the Winchester Ammunition Company's BIG announcement for the 1991 SHOT Show: "Black Talon" handgun ammunition, the first major munitions maker's response to the post-11 April 1986 hysteria over the "ammo failure" in the notorious FBI Firefight.

The trade publication, Shooting Industry, awarded the design two years running:

1992 Winchester Black Talon handgun ammunition
1993 Winchester Black Talon rifle ammunition
In Fall 1993, Winchester took their Black Talon brand of hollow-point ammunition off the commercial market after the rounds were singled out during a particularly intense period of concern about gun violence.

Winchester officials used research to show that the Black Talon was no more deadly4 than any of the other hollow point bullets on the market, but they pulled the ammunition from the shelves to quiet public concern. Black Talon was the first product Winchester had ever removed from the market for reasons other than manufacturing defects in the almost 130-year history of the company.

"It is a hazard and shouldn't be used," Dr. Edward Quebbeman, professor of pediatric5 surgery at the Medical College of Wisconsin and a general surgeon in Milwaukee hospitals was quoted in the September/October 1993 issue of thed radical-Liberal Mother Jones Magazine. "At an absolute minimum, I would like to see it banned from the civilian population."

So too did the eloquent and blustering Democratic senior Senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan6, who told a visibly horrified Jane Pauley, "It's designed to rip your guts out!" in response to a question from the bopolar interviewer on WNBC's "Live at Five" television show.

Within the week, then Winchester Ammo President Gerald W. Bersett, having been ambushed in his own driveway one morning by a TV crew intent on some headline-making "gotcha journalism," ordered the rounds taken out of the commercial distribution chain.

For all intents and purposes, the "Black Talon" brand was dead from that moment forward.

What it is/was...
The original Black Talon7 line of handgun ammunition was introduced at the 1991 SHOT Show in Dallas, and was marked by a black-colored projectile seated in a nickel-plated case, which made for a very "sexy" round! With the black bullets and gleaming cases, they looked as if they were the "official handgun ammo" of the Oakland Raiders professional football team.

The bullet's black molybdenum disulfide coating... Winchester's proprietary name for which is "Lubalox..." was applied for increased lubricity. The tip of the projectile utilizes six serrations on the hollow cavity's nose (meplat). Upon introduction at a specific velocity into soft tissue, the projectile's jacket expanded along those six pre-stressed lines forming the "talon."

Winchester described this as:

“Six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips.”
Winchester's Dave Schluckebier8 and Alan Corzine designed the Black Talon in the late '80s with what they termed a "reverse-taper jacket;" i.e., unlike conventional hollowpoint handgun projectile construction, the copper jacket is thicker at the nose than at the base. This heavier gauge provides the necessary structural stiffness to the "talons" after expansion so they remain in optimal position to slice through tissue as it parts around the mushroomed skirt of the bullet.

The Scandal and Beyond
The controversy over the Black Talon took place in an era when the public was largely uninformed about the reality of the new bullet technology developed in response to the FBI-facilitated Wound Ballistics Seminar at Quantico in September 1987.

To complicate matters, sentiment was already being heavily influenced by the efforts of anti-gun organizations such as Handgun Control, Inc. The issue blew into a firestorm, with HCI, the media, and even some in law enforcement vilifying the rounds and inflaming the public with such near hysterical statements from a surgeon in a Houston, Texas Emergency Room that the rounds were...

“...being designed to explode inside a person like a thousand razor blades, (with) most people having almost no chance of survival.”
Little wonder that Ms. Pauley looked a little pasty around the gills.

And HCI, having worked Josh Sugarmann's extraordinarily prescient "strategy of confusion"9 so well in the aftermath of the Patrick Purdy schoolyard shooting in Stockton, California almost five years earlier, reconfigured that campaign to "help" the public believe that the Black Talons were "deadly Cop-Killer Bullets."

At that point it was an understandable "corporate decision" for Winchester's Bersett to hit the panic button as a damage control measure.

[Jagermeister]

So after reading that let it be know that removing them from the market didn't do shit. Fact is while it is without a doubt a bad ass bullet, so is just about any well made jacketed hollow point. Is the Black Talon a killer? Fuck yes. But many others will still do the job. The Federal Hydra Shock is one that I like. Designer bullets are cool.

[Jagermeister]

“Perhaps a prayer can stop a Black Talon. But a pocketbook probably will not"

lol

[chefcraig]

I think the home invasion is a bit of a myth.

I would estimate the chances of an average family suffering one is over a million to one.

And you'd be very wrong in that estimation. According to a study conducted by the company asked us to remove this link.org, there are 8,000 home invasions in the U.S. daily.


EDIT by Sesh:-

The company who provided your figures got into trouble over their content and asked us to remove it.

[sadaist]

Fuck that's bullshit. I hear about one on the news damn near everyday dude.

Well...1 in a million. 300 million people in US. Almost enough for 1 per day.

Anyways, regardless of how many there are, they are scary fucking shit. Referring to the very recent case of the mom and 2 daughters that were raped & burned in their home. Dad survived barely. The 2 guys that did it are gonna fry hard. Sick doesn't even begin to describe it.

Once again, here is where having big dogs can come in handy. Anytime my wife was home alone for the evening she kept both boxers in the room with her. But then who wants to get sued because your dog bit the ass off a burgler?

Chihuahuas only count if you have more than 6. Vicious little fuckers have to attack the burgler like a school of piranhas.

[Jagermeister]

Well...1 in a million. 300 million people in US. Almost enough for 1 per day.

Anyways, regardless of how many there are, they are scary fucking shit. Referring to the very recent case of the mom and 2 daughters that were raped & burned in their home. Dad survived barely. The 2 guys that did it are gonna fry hard. Sick doesn't even begin to describe it.

Once again, here is where having big dogs can come in handy. Anytime my wife was home alone for the evening she kept both boxers in the room with her. But then who wants to get sued because your dog bit the ass off a burgler?

Chihuahuas only count if you have more than 6. Vicious little fuckers have to attack the burgler like a school of piranhas.

I have labs. One is young and sceery when she gets mad. But you know a dog most likely wont stop two guys who want something. They may slow um down and give you some time but a hollow point well they wont get past that.

[sadaist]

Some dogs do more than slow the bad guys down.




(not mine...from the Internets. I couldn't afford to feed this beast.)