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Thread: U.S. to Completely Withdraw from Iraq by January

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    Thumbs up U.S. to Completely Withdraw from Iraq by January

    AP: U.S. drops keeping troops in Iraq

    BAGHDAD (AP) – The U.S. is abandoning plans to keep U.S. troops in Iraq past a year-end withdrawal deadline, The Associated Press has learned. The decision to pull out fully by January will effectively end more than eight years of U.S. involvement in the Iraq war, despite ongoing concerns about its security forces and the potential for instability.

    By Maya Alleruzzo, AP

    The decision to pull out fully by January will effectively end more than eight years of U.S. involvement in the Iraq war.

    The decision ends months of hand-wringing by U.S. officials over whether to stick to a Dec. 31 withdrawal deadline that was set in 2008 or negotiate a new security agreement to ensure that gains made and more than 4,400 American military lives lost since March 2003 do not go to waste.

    In recent months, Washington has been discussing with Iraqi leaders the possibility of several thousand American troops remaining to continue training Iraqi security forces. A Pentagon spokesman said Saturday that no final decision has been reached about the U.S. training relationship with the Iraqi government.

    But a senior Obama administration official in Washington confirmed Saturday that all American troops will leave Iraq except for about 160 active-duty soldiers attached to the U.S. Embassy.

    A senior U.S. military official confirmed the departure and said the withdrawal could allow future but limited U.S. military training missions in Iraq if requested.

    Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

    Throughout the discussions, Iraqi leaders have adamantly refused to give U.S. troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans have refused to stay without it. Iraq's leadership has been split on whether it wanted American forces to stay. Some argued the further training and U.S. help was vital, particularly to protect Iraq's airspace and gather security intelligence. But others have deeply opposed any American troop presence, including Shiite militiamen who have threatened attacks on any American forces who remain.

    Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has told U.S. military officials that he does not have the votes in parliament to provide immunity to the American trainers, the U.S. military official said.

    A western diplomatic official in Iraq said al-Maliki told international diplomats he will not bring the immunity issue to parliament because lawmakers will not approve it.

    A White House spokesman, Tommy Vietor, said discussions with Iraq about the security relationship between the two countries next year were ongoing.

    Pentagon press secretary George Little said the U.S. remains "committed to keeping our agreement with the Iraqi government to remove all of our troops by the end of this year."

    "At the same time we're building a comprehensive partnership with Iraq under the Strategic Framework Agreement including a robust security relationship, and discussions with the Iraqis about the nature of that relationship are ongoing," Little said.

    The Strategic Framework Agreement allows for other forms of military cooperation besides U.S. troops on the ground. Signed at the same time as the security accord mandating the departure deadlines, it provides outlines for the U.S.-Iraqi relationship in such areas as economic, cultural and security cooperation.

    Iraqi lawmakers excel at last-minute agreements. But with little wiggle room on the immunity issue and the U.S. military needing to move equipment out as soon as possible, a last-minute change between now and December 31 seems almost out of the question.

    Regardless of whether U.S. troops are here or not, there will be a massive American diplomatic presence.

    The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad is the largest in the world, and the State Department will have offices in Basra, Irbil and Kirkuk as well as other locations around the country where contractors will train Iraqi forces on U.S. military equipment they're purchasing.

    About 5,000 security contractors and personnel will be tasked with helping protect American diplomats and facilities around the country, the State Department has said.

    The U.S. Embassy will still have a handful of U.S. Marines for protection and 157 U.S. military personnel in charge of facilitating weapons sales to Iraq. Those are standard functions at most American embassies around the world and would be considered part of the regular embassy staff.

    When the 2008 agreement requiring all U.S. forces leave Iraq was passed, many U.S. officials assumed it would inevitably be renegotiated so that American forces could stay longer.

    The U.S. said repeatedly this year it would entertain an offer from the Iraqis to have a small force stay behind, and the Iraqis said they would like American military help. But as the year wore on and the number of American troops that Washington was suggesting could stay behind dropped, it became increasingly clear that a U.S. troop presence was not a sure thing.

    The issue of legal protection for the Americans was the deal-breaker.

    Iraqis are still angry over incidents such as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal or Haditha, when U.S. troops killed Iraqi civilians in Anbar province, and want American troops subject to Iraqi law.

    American commanders don't want to risk having their forces end up in an Iraqi courtroom if they're forced to defend themselves in a still-hostile environment.

    It is highly unlikely that Iraqi lawmakers would have the time to approve a U.S. troop deal even if they wanted to. The parliament is in recess on its Hajj break until Nov. 20, leaving just a few weeks for legislative action before the end of year deadline.

    Going down to zero by the end of this year would allow both al-Maliki and President Barack Obama to claim victory. Obama will have fulfilled a key campaign promise to end the war and al-Maliki will have ended the American presence in Iraq and restored Iraqi sovereignty.

    The Iraqi prime minister was also under intense pressure from his anti-American allies, the Sadrists, to reject any American military presence.

    An advisor close to al-Maliki said the Americans suggested during negotiations that if no deal is reached in time, U.S. troops could be stationed in Kuwait.

    With the U.S. military presence in Iraq currently at about 41,000 and heading down to zero, almost all of those forces will be flowing out of Iraq into Kuwait and then home or other locations.

    A western expert in Iraq said it is conceivable that if the Iraqi government asks early next year for U.S. troops to return, there will be forces still in Kuwait able to come back and do the job.

    But he stressed that the core problems still remain on the Iraqi side about what types of legal immunity to give the American troops and whether parliament can pass it.

    USAToday.com

    Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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    About fucking time........
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    Amazing what can get done in an election year
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    Very cynical but true

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    Hell, I'm more cynical than that, given the COMPLETE BULLSHIT story that broke a few days ago -the extremely vague and mysterious attempt to connect Iran with "Mexican drug cartels" (on the BCE/CIA payroll), allegedly to kill some Saudi douchebag, so World War III can begin and NuttyYahoo won't have to take the blame for it, despite the fact that he's the fucking piece of shit with a hard-on for killing Iranians.

    Gotta free up the manpower and the weapons for the NEXT useless war that has NOTHING to do with this country.
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    FORD wins......Cynic of the year.

    Look at how much money that'll save us http://costofwar.com/en/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwame k View Post
    FORD wins......Cynic of the year.

    Dammit. I didn't even know the nominations had gone out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    COMPLETE BULLSHIT story that broke a few days ago -the extremely vague and mysterious attempt to connect Iran with "Mexican drug cartels" (on the BCE/CIA payroll),


    Be careful. Obamas guy Holder is also connected to Mexican drug cartels too. Fast & furious. Seems like those drug cartels have their fingers in a lot of pies right now.

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    Fuck Eric Holder. He's been far worse of a disappointment than Obama himself. Elliot Spitzer or John Edwards would have made a far better Attorney General (which is why I don't think either one's "sex scandals" were a coincidence. Not that I absolve either of their stupidity, but why was it suddenly a public issue?)

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    When I heard Obama was sending advisors to Uganda I immediately researched to see if there is oil there. There is and oddly enough, George Soros has interests in energy companies in that region of Africa. I guess we are going to protect George's oil interests more than anything. I never buy the humanitarian, spreading freedom excuse anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadaist View Post
    Be careful. Obamas guy Holder is also connected to Mexican drug cartels too. Fast & furious. Seems like those drug cartels have their fingers in a lot of pies right now.
    Yeah and they supposedly get Bin Laden and have no proof they did and then the Seal Team responsible for getting him get killed in an accident. Frankly, it all looks like a lie and coverup to me. Nobody trusts this president or his administration anymore. It's starting to look like they are just a bunch of mobsters basically.

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    I know this is sounding like a guy wondering if we won a football game or not.

    but, did we actually win this war? Not sure what the goal was exactly, but I guess we freed their people from an oppressive dictator and put in place some form of a democracy, and we're leaving now under our own free-will not just because we're cutting our losses.

    Kind of confused now of what to think of this anymore. I mean it made us look like assholes on the international scale in general, but what will people think of this 50 years from now?
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    Iraq was invaded because Saddam was a threat to the US Dollar position as being the world's trade currency. What allowed the Federal Reserve to issue so many dollars with nothing backing them is that the world had to convert their currency into US Dollars in order to buy oil. When Saddam started accepting other currencies for his oil and since Iraq was such a large oil producer, we invaded Iraq.

    I think the overall goal of the neocons was to use military force to control the world's oil supply. China was becoming too powerful, it would allow the dollar to keep going, and give the US great power to black mail other countries. That is why they wanted to attack Iran and create a situation in the caucuses so they could control the Caspian basin.

    Where the plan went wrong was Putin tossed the western oil oligarchs out of Russia and Iraq turned out to be a harder country to control than initially thought.

    It wasn't about restoring democracy it was about oil. As time goes on this period of US history will be known as the petroleum wars. I think many war crimes will start to surface and we may see some people brought to trial. It will be a black mark and known as a very dismal time looking back at it. It will be viewed as a huge waste and the politicians who sold it will be viewed as monsters. One of the most corrupt periods of US history. George W. Bush and Barrack Obama will go into the history books as being the worst presidents in US history. Their actions may also come back to haunt them as the truth comes forward and may be facing international courts and possible jail time. Only deserving for the nazis they are.

    The only reason we are pulling out of Iraq is Obama knows his chances of re-election will be better if we do so. The overall mission was a failure and the contractors made a lot of money during the past decade. Like Vietnam it takes about a decade to get out but man oh man the money you can make on the war.
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 10-29-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Well, the BCE themselves might have been motivated by the whole oil/currency thing, but that's not why the authors of PNAC wanted him gone. Their goal was -and still is - to remove anyone from the Middle East who can in any way challenge the military supremacy of Israel. Those Likudist cocksuckers were plotting to get rid of him since NuttyYahoos first term as Israel's PM in 1995.

    And that's when PNAC's Richard Perle & Douglas Feith, along with several NuttyYahoo advisers and other neocon shitbags created a document called "A Clean Break:
    A New Strategy for Securing the Realm"
    which was essentially PNAC agenda 1.0, designed as a manifesto for the NuttyYahoo regime. While the document mentions the Likud obsession with Syria actually more than it does Iraq, it specifically mentions their desire to remove Saddam from power.

    PNAC then turned around and sent letters to President Clinton and to Congress in 1998. When they failed to provoke either one into another war with Iraq, they decided that they needed to become the US government, in order to implement their murderous plan for global fascism, which would require "a new Pearl Harbor" to kick it into gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunisinuS View Post
    Not confused it's that they pissed off too many bank customers. Honestly, I have no idea why people bank with these big banks. I noticed when I was in San Jose, CA most the banks were Wells Fargo or Bank of America. No small banks. Maybe in some places that's the only choice.

    I had a piece of commercial property that Wells Fargo bought the mortgage and when I went to sell it they didn't have any of the paperwork. What should have been a simple deal became a nightmare. If you think about it selling mortgages without the consent of the original parties involved should be illegal. A mortgage is a contract between parties and when you sell a mortgage and someone else becomes the owner legally you should have to negotiate a whole new mortgage because the name of one party on the contract has changed.

    It's amazing how sloppy banking has gotten on the legal side of things. The people have just gotten fed up with it. Plus these big banks are still full of toxic assets on their books they are trying to saddle us for while they steal from their regular customers. Basically these institutions are still broke and they should fail. Good riddins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Elliot Spitzer or John Edwards would have made a far better Attorney General (which is why I don't think either one's "sex scandals" were a coincidence.
    Yes! It was obviously the Ghost of Christmas Past that made both of them go out and fuck women other than their wives. FORD, you say some nutty things but saying that an affair is not the fault of the one who got his hand caught in the cookie jar is one of your best.
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    Like I said, I don't excuse either one for their stupidity, I just wonder why diaper head Vitter still has his job, and they don't?

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    John Edwards is a world class cunt by all accounts. Even for a politician.
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    I actually think the entire Iraq invasion was much more simplistic...

    I always go back and remember something that Bush said in a press conference about Saddam, saying "this is a guy who tried to kill my Dad".....

    So while the WMD excuse works too, I think part of the reason Bush pushed towards invading Iraq was the failed assassination attempt on Bush 41 while he was in Kuwait in 1993....

    Completely serious....
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    Remember the chat from the ex president in South America though.

    Bush had it in his head that wars are good for the economy. Someone had told him it was a win-win.

    Even ignoring the staggering lack of morality in that position it's also been proved to be completely fucking wrong.

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    There we go.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_592444.html

    President George W. Bush argued in 2004 that the best way to grow the U.S. economy was by waging war, according to former Argentine Prime Minister Néstor Kirchner.

    Kirchner, in a meeting with Bush, suggested that the United States replicate the successful nation-building strategy it implemented at the end of World War II.

    "And he stood up from his chair and got angry. He told me, 'A Marshall plan! No! That's a crazy idea from the Democrats. What needs to be done here, and the best way to revitalize the economy is -- the United States has grown based on wars,' he told me. That's what he told me," Kirchner recounted.

    Bush added, said Kirchner, that "all the economic growth that the U.S. had had, had been based on the different wars it had waged."

    The former Argentine leader, whose wife now heads the country, made the comments in an interview with Oliver Stone for his upcoming documentary "South Of the Border."

    The film is co-written by Tariq Ali, a British intellectual, and Mark Weisbrot of the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Economic and Policy Research. The film opens in theaters June 25th.

    Kirchner held a 50-minute meeting in Monterrey, Mexico with Bush in January, 2004.


    The charge startled even Oliver Stone. "War? He said that?" Stone asked Kirchner, who was among a wave of progressive leaders elected in Latin America over the last decade.

    "He said that, word for word," Kirchner assured Stone.

    Stone followed up: "Is he suggesting that Latin America should go to war?"

    No, said Kirchner. "Well, he was talking about the United States, never said South America. That the United States -- that it was a misunderstanding of the Democrats, that all the economic growth that the U.S. had had, had been based on the different wars it had waged."

    The Kirchner interview is done through a translator and the subtitles on the screen don't exactly match what Kirchner was saying, but more closely reflect how his comments were being translated at the time. The Huffington Post had three separate native Spanish speakers translate Kirchner's remarks. His comments above are the result of those translations.

    If Kirchner is accurately relaying the comments, that would make Bush the highest-ranking public official to state outright that war is and has been good for the American economy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchainme View Post
    Kind of confused now of what to think of this anymore. I mean it made us look like assholes on the international scale in general, but what will people think of this 50 years from now?
    You can never really forecast how history will play out. 50 years on will read much different than the swipe we were taught about World War II in that it's the victors who get to tell the story. Problem here is, there is no victory, no objective, nothing. And despite what we are being told/programmed this won't ever be a "complete" pullout (oooh, that sounded so dirty) in that there will always be "advisors" goons and Blackwater type thugs running a Wizard of Oz show behind the curtains.

    Iraq will by far have more lingering effects than Veit Nam ever will. Not only did the US government (and I'll say government over military even though the military did the dirty work) destroy innocent lives as well as infrastructure we almost wiped out their culture as a bonus replacing it with a propagandized mindset of reeducation and yes, religion. Problem is, it obviously failed - just like in Afghanistan and like it will in Libya and Iran, North Korea or anyone Hillary & Co, decide to bomb if they get a hair up their collective assholes about not liking the current regime.

    Maybe I sound like a paranoid New World Order conspiratist but take a look around you - there is no more democracy, at least not in the traditional sense. The US government brought anything but that to the Iraqi table.
    Last edited by Kristy; 10-29-2011 at 01:15 PM.
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    If Bush really wanted to kick start the economy with some form of pseudo gov't spending, he should invested it in the space exploration.

    being dead serious here.

    look at all the technological innovations that came from the Apollo missions,

    either that or invest that money towards public works projects due to the fact that the US did have a pretty hefty surplus at the time.

    or improving our healthcare.

    there's three easy ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Well, the BCE themselves might have been motivated by the whole oil/currency thing, but that's not why the authors of PNAC wanted him gone. Their goal was -and still is - to remove anyone from the Middle East who can in any way challenge the military supremacy of Israel. Those Likudist cocksuckers were plotting to get rid of him since NuttyYahoos first term as Israel's PM in 1995.
    ....
    If that's they're intention Ford, then they mightily fucked up to the extent that your theory makes no sense. Saddam's Army was little threat to anyone and barely was enough to deter Iran from incurring into Iraq's borders...It had more to do with a Neocon fantasy of setting up an 'oasis of democracy' in the Middle East, which actually makes less sense than many of your BCE conspiracy theories...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    Yes! It was obviously the Ghost of Christmas Past that made both of them go out and fuck women other than their wives. FORD, you say some nutty things but saying that an affair is not the fault of the one who got his hand caught in the cookie jar is one of your best.
    So is having an affair the problem, or getting caught having the affair the problem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    ...

    Iraq will by far have more lingering effects than Veit Nam ever will....
    Not really. Over ten times more Americans died is Southeast Asia than in Iraq...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Remember the chat from the ex president in South America though.

    Bush had it in his head that wars are good for the economy. Someone had told him it was a win-win.

    Even ignoring the staggering lack of morality in that position it's also been proved to be completely fucking wrong.
    Yep. Immoral, and completely ignorant of actual history where draining wars have largely fostered economic malaise such as Vietnam did resulting in an off-again-on-again recession that lasted into the 1980s. Of course, many of these Republi'tards, with their self-deluded faux histories, are referring to the Great Depression ending with the onset of WWII, while ignoring that the Depression was largely ending over a year before America's direct involvement and that the U.S. economy was a staggering industrial juggernaut even AFTER the Depression had gutted the middle and working classes. So much so, that according to Adam Tooze in The Wages of Destruction, the prime mover of Hitler's policies was to acquire the Soviet Union and use it as an eventual industrial base so he could match American industrial production level in a foreseeable long war. Things didn't quite work out as he planned...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    If that's they're intention Ford, then they mightily fucked up to the extent that your theory makes no sense. Saddam's Army was little threat to anyone and barely was enough to deter Iran from incurring into Iraq's borders...It had more to do with a Neocon fantasy of setting up an 'oasis of democracy' in the Middle East, which actually makes less sense than many of your BCE conspiracy theories...
    Benji NuttyYahoo is a paranoid fascist. It doesn't have to make sense (and it doesn't) but that bastard (and his fellow Likudists in Mossad and the Israeli military) literally believe there's a new potential Hitler hiding behind every rock in the Middle East. Hell, just look at their propaganda campaign about Iran's fictional "nuclear weapons" for example. Even though Chimp and Darth even admitted that was all complete bullshit by 2007 or so, they ramped up the propaganda again the minute Obama took office, and sadly neither he nor Hillary seems interested in debunking what even a warmonger like Cheney already admitted was a lie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Not really. Over ten times more Americans died is Southeast Asia than in Iraq...
    I was talking more on a global scale. So sorry for the confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    I was talking more on a global scale. So sorry for the confusion.
    I still don't a agree. But to be fair you're a lot younger than I am and while Vietnam was well before my time, the 1980's obsession with it and the Veterans of the conflict--and the Vietnamese Civil War in general--were not. I appreciate the fact that you don't really have much point of comparison though. But one must say that the fallout form the clusterfuck war we fought in Southeast Asia caused an enormous ripple-effect in the U.S. culture, politics, and the economy. It also had a very appreciable effect internationally with the perception of an America run by a bunch of ruthless bastards not only willing to incinerate Vietnamese "to save a village," but willing to let American soldiers and draftees be sent to their deaths knowing we couldn't really win and our side in South Vietnam was run by a bunch of corrupt fuckwit cowards (whether that's really a fair perception or not, as many of the Vietnamese on both sides were complete bastards with no predilection against incinerating each other and the Russians and Chinese who supported them were as well).

    I think if you did a little research, you'd find the fallout was rather massive and the perception of the U.S.A. as the pristine, virginal Paladin selflessly fighting for good and justice was gone forever, not that we ever really were that Paladin to begin with. We have always been ruthless when it served our ends, and the Iraq War may have actually been a much lessor example of the savagery we're capable of. Just Google about the American occupation of the Philippines and the 'counterinsurgency' war fought there around 1903...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 10-29-2011 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    It also had a very appreciable effect internationally with the perception of an America run by a bunch of ruthless bastards not only willing to incinerate Vietnamese "to save a village," but willing to let American soldiers and draftees be sent to their deaths knowing we couldn't really win and our side in South Vietnam was run by a bunch of corrupt fuckwit cowards (whether that's really a fair perception or not, as many of the Vietnamese on both sides were complete bastards with no predilection against incinerating each other and the Russians and Chinese who supported them were as well).
    It's not surprise that any war the US have been involved has been corporate-funded in in way or another. The difference between Iraq and Viet Nam is that one was fought over unfounded paranoia and the other for oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I think if you did a little research, you'd find the fallout was rather massive and the perception of the U.S.A. as the pristine, virginal Paladin selflessly fighting for good and justice was gone forever, not that we ever really were that Paladin to begin with. We have always been ruthless when it served our ends, and the Iraq War may have actually been a much lessor example of the savagery we're capable of. Just Google about the American occupation of the Philippines and the 'counterinsurgency' war fought there around 1903...
    Another difference here is Viet Nam was more of a localized conflict - mainly the US against Soviet-sponsored Communism where we pretty much less knew who the enemy was and what their ideologies were no matter if the US kept the war machine going by distorting those ideologies. To me, Viet Nam was a set stage for international war if the US wanted to push a invasion into the heart of Moscow to rid the world of all that anti-American pie "pinko fascism." If you take into account that Korea was more or less a stalemate by the US military, you knew that under the likes of Papa Bush, Kissinger, Nixon et al who saw Communism as a global threat weren't about to make the same mistake.

    I used to work for a wizened Viet Nam vet who repeatably told me that "we were kicking their asses - and we would have kicked them all the way back to Moscow if the politicians have let us" made be a bold statement but it does prove your point that the US is not the Yanky Doodle Dandy fighting for good as so many of us were duped to believe. The Hanoi bombing campaign whether you agree with it or not was largely successful bringing the North Vietnamese to the peace talks table. The only downside being it was shown on the evening news with all those innocent women and children being blown to bits by B-52 raids.

    This is why Iraq is a different animal in the for one it was a media-controlled war. There was no known uniformed enemy so anyone could be considered a potential target. Who knows how many women and children were killed in Baghdad alone with the likes of Fox and CNN foregoing showing any carnage instead spoon-feeding us horseshit that this was bringing "democracy" and "liberation' to one of the world's worst shitholes. The only shit we did see is when the Marines but the smackdown on a insurgency in Falujah and the brutal reality of doing so. Once again, the politicians intervened and stopped it thus prolonging our stay there. Plus, there was more at stake than Communist paranoia - there was oil and any western country that wanted their share had to play by Bush & Co rules. That meant "coalition forces" which is what I mean by Iraq having a larger global impact in a future 50 year history lesson. The lingering effects of Iraq haven't begun to show up yet

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    The US basically transformed itself from a consumer products economy to a war economy. We need wars to keep it going and we need to control the oil so the world has to buy US Dollars to finance the wars. It's that simple. As soon as that circle breaks the US is no longer a super power unless it becomes a consumer product exporter again.

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    Iraq=1.5 million dead people, radiation pollution, and someone made a lot of money off of it all. End of story.

    It's safe to think the fake patriotism has worn thin. Toby Keith doesn't even seem so gung ho anymore.

    Communism was a product of the west. I sometimes think the people who promoted communism were the same people behind fighting it. Talk about a money maker there and oh how you could use paranoia to steer the public treasury towards your war industries. I think the whole war on communism was a bit derived as this war on terror is.
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 10-29-2011 at 07:42 PM.

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    Oh, and I apologize for my word typos - I don't have my glasses with me.*


    *yeah, let's just go with that.

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    What's interesting is when you go outside of Europe and North America the world economy grew 7%. My sister is back living in South America and it's just booming down there in places. It's the fucking central banks in the west that fucked the economies in Europe and North America and now they want to saddle the tax payers with centuries of debt just to keep the whole broken shit thing going. The Euro has turned out to be a joke. It's not going to last. The only card the bankers have is to flame some more wars. It's all they can do so the public needs to be wary of this.

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    What's even funnier is that the country in Europe with the highest growth at the moment is Belgium.

    15 months ago at their election the vote was split among a few different parties and they haven't been able to come to an agreement to form a coalition.

    In other words since then Belgium has had no government. I'm sure you'll be hearing about this a lot from libertarians in the US as soon as one of them notices.

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    A German told me the Euro was like having a joint banking account with a cousin who doesn't work very hard and spends too much. I mean it's just not sustainable. All I know is someone is going to get burned. We can't pay off all this debt so I guess the battle is over who gets burned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Communism was a product of the west. I sometimes think the people who promoted communism were the same people behind fighting it. Talk about a money maker there and oh how you could use paranoia to steer the public treasury towards your war industries. I think the whole war on communism was a bit derived as this war on terror is.
    There is at least a little bit of truth to that....

    Samuel P. Bush (father of Prescott the Nazi) took his profits from the Rockefeller railroad swindles and bought into the Remington Rifle company. Great Grandaddy Bush then sold guns all over Europe, effectively arming both sides of World War I and the Soviet Bolsheviks at the same time. Thus you could say the BCE had a role in creating the USSR, though obviously not as direct as their role in creating the Nazis or Al Qaeda..

    Meanwhile Fred Koch (father of the idiots trying to control this country right now) made his fortune by selling oil equipment to Joe Stalin, then taking part of those profits to fund the fascist John Birch Society and claiming to hate the commies who made him rich.

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    You mean the Harrimans. They were into the railroads more than the Rockefellers were. Basically when you get into high level finance it's beyond any country's borders. To the layman international finance was a very new concept in the 1970's. To the upper tier it was nothing new. David Rockefeller was doing business with the Chinese way before Nixon went over and the 1980 open up. Armand Hammer was doing business in the Soviet Union before the wall ever came down. Upper tier finance people have access to areas where even our highest politicians don't.

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