ron paul=awesome/kickass?

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  • FORD
    ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

    • Jan 2004
    • 58777

    Originally posted by Dr. Love
    That sounds great -- is there a line in there about reducing/ending the deficits and the ballooning national debt?
    Here ya go....

    Fiscally Responsible?

    We need to invest in our people and our future -- job opportunities, training, research and development, improved immigration laws to attract and retain talented, hard-working people from other nations, education (I have advocated for enriched pre-school opportunities for every child and free higher education (perhaps with a community service component included)), support for the arts, family planning, universal health care (and a much less expensive system, with better outcomes, as in every other nation in the industrialized world), a vastly improved infrastructure, child care, and transit opportunities. Those investments pay off in helping to restore our nation's competitive edge in relation to other nations, their employees, and their students. I also believe in creating a more equal playing field for employers and working people so that U.S. corporations are not exporting jobs to the detriment of our nation and its people. Priming the pump with government investments is crucial during a recession. The real damage was done during the Bush administration, when we were engaged in horrendously expensive (and humanly tragic) wars and, at the same time, enormous tax breaks were given to the wealthy. (It is the first time in our nation's history that we were engaged in wars and, at the same time, taxes were reduced. Insanely irresponsible.)

    Driving up the accumulated debt has been the objective of government haters like Grover Norquist, who has been preaching "Starve the beast" for years. He knows, as we are seeing now, that social programs will be the first ones to go once our debt has skyrocketed. A true fiscal conservative would make certain that there are sufficient revenues by increasing taxes -- and that we cut out the waste in the federal budget, particularly in the military budget. Next time your representative in Congress talks about being a "fiscal conservative," -- or next time he/she complains about the federal debt -- ask if he/she continued to support F-22 funding (a boondoggle that continued primarily because there were contractors or sub-contractors in 44 states and members of Congress simply wanted to take the federal bacon back home).

    Education is a core duty of government. Without an educated citizenry, our nation has no future. In fact, we have lost our competitive edge in large part because our government has not ensured that enough of our students are getting a world-class education. While other nations are investing heavily in education, their students are out-scoring and out-performing our students. And we wonder where the jobs are? We must re-commit to providing the best possible education for our students. That should include enriched pre-school programs that will make an enormous difference in the physiological development of our children's brains and in their capacity later to learn and compete. Just as our forebears had the wisdom to provide a free secondary education for every child, so too should we exercise the wisdom to provide, for all capable students, a free higher education, with perhaps a community- or national-service component included.

    Universal health care does not require the "nationalization" of any health care providers. It simply requires that we catch up with the rest of the industrialized world. Every other nation in the industrialized world provides essential health care to every citizen.No one in any other nation in the industrialized world takes out bankruptcy because of medical bills. That only happens in the U.S. Are you proud of that? Our system, by comparison to the rest of the industrialized world, is a failure: (1) Our system costs more than twice as much as the average in the rest of the industrialized world. (2) Our medical outcomes are mediocre by comparison with other nations. (3) We are the only nation where people are without essential health care. If you're proud of that, I can only say that our values are world's apart. In my view, one's economic status should not determine whether he/she -- or his/her children -- should die or suffer needlessly. We can do so much better than we do -- yet real reform has been prevented because of the rapacious for-profit insurance and pharmaceutical industries, and the elected officials who do their bidding rather than protect the public interest.

    http://www.voterocky.org/fiscal_responsibility
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

    Comment

    • Dr. Love
      ROTH ARMY SUPREME
      • Jan 2004
      • 7830

      Ok, that still sounds good... but from what I can tell he's suggesting we pay for it by a combination of taxing and reducing spending? Will that keep us at the debt/deficit we're at or does he have a plan to reduce the deficits and ultimately the debt?
      I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

      http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

      Comment

      • ELVIS
        Banned
        • Dec 2003
        • 44120

        Jesus friggin' christ Doc, Stop trying to be so fucking nice and cordial !!!

        This guy is just another big government liberal who thinks the answer is more big government programs and more taxpayer dollars...




        Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

        Comment

        • FORD
          ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

          • Jan 2004
          • 58777

          Originally posted by Dr. Love
          Ok, that still sounds good... but from what I can tell he's suggesting we pay for it by a combination of taxing and reducing spending? Will that keep us at the debt/deficit we're at or does he have a plan to reduce the deficits and ultimately the debt?
          Let me simplify it for you. (and for the record, this is my proposal, not Rocky Anderson's, but I'd guess he would probably agree)

          If we returned to the Eisenhower era tax rates, we could do the 21st century equivalence of the infrastructure improvements that were done under his administration.

          Or we could do what FDR did and spend the money neceessary, and fuck worrying about the deficit short term, because the best way to stimulate the economy is for people to spend money and buy shit. Which creates a need to make more shit for people to buy, which in turn causes the people who make that shit to need to hire more people to make it. And that in turn puts money in more people's pockets to spend on shit, and .... you get the idea.

          That's what saved us in the 30's. Doing the polar opposite since 1980 is killing us. And while Ron Paul is correct about the imperialism wars, and the corrupt banking industry, he fails to recognize the bigger picture, and because of his Randtard fairytale beliefs in deregulation, he would take away what little restraints remain against the criminals.
          Eat Us And Smile

          Cenk For America 2024!!

          Justice Democrats


          "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

          Comment

          • Dr. Love
            ROTH ARMY SUPREME
            • Jan 2004
            • 7830

            I just googled the Eisenhower tax rates:

            Income level Tax rate 2008 PPC Adjusted Income [2]
            up to $2,000.00 20% up to $37,500.00
            $2,000.01 – $4,000.00 22% $37,500 – 75,000
            $4,000.01 – $6,000.00 26% $75,000 – 112,500
            $6,000.01 – $8,000.00 30% $112,500 – 150,000
            $8,000.01 – $10,000.00 34% $150,000 – 187,500
            $10,000.01 – $12,000.00 38% $187,500 – 225,000
            $12,000.01 – $14,000.00 43% $225,000 – 262,500
            $14,000.01 – $16,000.00 47% $262,500 – 300,000
            $16,000.01 – $18,000.00 50% $300,000 – 337,500
            $18,000.01 – $20,000.00 53% $337,500 – 375,000
            $20,000.01 – $22,000.00 56% $375,000 – 412,500
            $22,000.01 – $26,000.00 59% $412,500 – 487,500
            $26,000.01 – $32,000.00 62% $487,500 – 600,000
            $32,000.01 – $38,000.00 65% $600,000 – 712,500
            $38,000.01 – $44,000.00 69% $712,500 – 825,000
            $44,000.01 – $50,000.00 72% $825,000 – 937,500
            $50,000.01 – $60,000.00 75% $937,500 – 1,125,000
            $60,000.01 – $70,000.00 78% $1,125,000 – 1,312,500
            $70,000.01 – $80,000.00 81% $1,312,500 – 1,500,000
            $80,000.01 – $90,000.00 84% $1,500,000 – $1,687,500
            $90,000.01 – $100,000.00 87% $1,687,500 – $1,875,000
            $100,000.01 – $150,000.00 89% $1,875,000 – $2,812,500
            $150,000.01 – $ 200,000.00 90% $2,812,500 – $3,750,000
            $200,000.01 or more 91% $3,750,000 or more



            Are you kidding me???
            I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

            http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

            Comment

            • Dr. Love
              ROTH ARMY SUPREME
              • Jan 2004
              • 7830

              Also:

              lol @ all of you that think that the value of the dollar hasn't essentially collapsed in the last 60 years. $2,000 in 1954 = $37,500 today ...
              I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

              http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

              Comment

              • knuckleboner
                Crazy Ass Mofo
                • Jan 2004
                • 2927

                Originally posted by Dr. Love
                I don't think you speak for an entire population, but regardless, I do believe Paul is much more progressive than Obama on a lot of issues.

                Obama supports the PATRIOT Act, Paul does not
                Obama supports the continued War of Drugs, Paul does not
                Obama supports the NDAA and indefinite detention of Americans, Paul does not
                Obama supports increased restrictions on protests, Paul does not
                Obama supports killing Americans without trial abroad, Paul does not

                The big problem I think progressives have with Paul is partly what you say -- Paul does not believe in a Nanny state, but also that progressives view Government as the solution to every problem. Every problem has the same solution: More Government. This, despite that incredibly apparent abuses by government and their corporate owners. Yes... let's give more power and authority to an organization that is already infested with corruption under the belief that somehow it won't be abused and somehow the corporations won't turn it to their advantage despite having done it in practically every other area.



                Yes, it is very laughable.
                dude, what's laughable is the presumption that progressives will flock to ron paul. they will not. no chance. if paul ran as an independent, he would guarantee an obama win. he knows this, which is why he won't run as an independent. it would torpedo any chance for rand to run later on.

                now, i won't dispute you that ron paul is more progressive than obama on a number of individual issues. but that doesn't mean progressives will support him, like the article you posted implied. reason.org is a huge libertarian outfit. so, of course they're going to jock ron paul. but it doesn't mean his chances of pulling any progressive support is any more accurate.

                Comment

                • ELVIS
                  Banned
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 44120

                  Only because of the media blackout of anything related to Paul...


                  Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

                  Comment

                  • Dr. Love
                    ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 7830

                    Originally posted by knuckleboner
                    dude, what's laughable is the presumption that progressives will flock to ron paul. they will not. no chance. if paul ran as an independent, he would guarantee an obama win. he knows this, which is why he won't run as an independent. it would torpedo any chance for rand to run later on.

                    now, i won't dispute you that ron paul is more progressive than obama on a number of individual issues. but that doesn't mean progressives will support him, like the article you posted implied. reason.org is a huge libertarian outfit. so, of course they're going to jock ron paul. but it doesn't mean his chances of pulling any progressive support is any more accurate.
                    It's surprising that more progressives didn't like Bush. Obama is just like him. People let the corporate parties control them too much with issues that only seem to come up every 4 years, like gay marriage. How easily manipulated.

                    However, I read the article again. It doesn't talk about progressives flocking to Obama at all. What it says is that Paul is right of the republican party and left of the democratic party depending on the issue you look at.

                    It says in that in some respects, he's more progressive than Obama (and he is). It also goes on to outline why most progressives don't/won't support him. So the article seems pretty fair to me (claims on what Obama hates not-withstanding).

                    So the idea that seems laughable, where progressives flock to Ron Paul, seems to be your idea, not the article's.
                    I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

                    http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

                    Comment

                    • FORD
                      ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                      • Jan 2004
                      • 58777

                      Originally posted by ELVIS
                      Jesus friggin' christ Doc, Stop trying to be so fucking nice and cordial !!!

                      This guy is just another big government liberal who thinks the answer is more big government programs and more taxpayer dollars...
                      No, the answer is remembering what government is, and what it's supposed to be.

                      What's the first three words of the Constiution again?

                      WE THE PEOPLE

                      Not "We the corporations". Not "We the bloated corrupt defense industry" or "We the greedy fucking thieves on Wall Street" or "We the foreign agents of AIPAC and the ChiCom lobbyists".

                      The solution isn't bigger government or smaller government. It's smarter government working for the people and not the 1% criminals. Not wasting money on useless wars that have nothing to do with the United States. Or useless weapons like "Star Wars" and the F-22. Or subsidizing the worst industries on the planet, like big tobacco, greedy oil bastards, and franken food producers like MonSatan. It doesn't actually cost more to produce organic food than it does GMO crap "food". But MonSatan gets the subsidies, and that's why the nutritionally void crap is cheaper in the grocery stores. Shouldn't we be subsidizing actual food instead? As for the tobacco industry, there shouldn't be one anymore. Let alone a subsidized one. I'm not a prohibition advocate, so I'm not saying you need to ban the shit from the planet. Just encourage farmers to grow something else. Like sugar cane, where the climate permits it. If MonSatan was no longer subsidized, you wouldn't see high fructose corn poison in everything, so we would need more. Some of these farms could also grow hemp. No, not just the smokeable kind, though there would be nothing wrong with that either. Hemp for fabric. Hemp for biofuels (far more effecient than MonSatan corn) etc.

                      We really need to roll back all this BCE bullshit of the last 32 years, and go back to the policies that saved this country from fascism the last time, and will do so again.
                      Eat Us And Smile

                      Cenk For America 2024!!

                      Justice Democrats


                      "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                      Comment

                      • Nickdfresh
                        SUPER MODERATOR

                        • Oct 2004
                        • 49181

                        Originally posted by Dr. Love
                        It's surprising that more progressives didn't like Bush. Obama is just like him. People let the corporate parties control them too much with issues that only seem to come up every 4 years, like gay marriage. How easily manipulated.

                        However, I read the article again. It doesn't talk about progressives flocking to Obama at all. What it says is that Paul is right of the republican party and left of the democratic party depending on the issue you look at.

                        It says in that in some respects, he's more progressive than Obama (and he is). It also goes on to outline why most progressives don't/won't support him. So the article seems pretty fair to me (claims on what Obama hates not-withstanding).

                        So the idea that seems laughable, where progressives flock to Ron Paul, seems to be your idea, not the article's.
                        Um, progressives aren't flocking to Ron Paul...

                        Comment

                        • knuckleboner
                          Crazy Ass Mofo
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 2927

                          Originally posted by Dr. Love
                          It's surprising that more progressives didn't like Bush. Obama is just like him. People let the corporate parties control them too much with issues that only seem to come up every 4 years, like gay marriage. How easily manipulated.

                          However, I read the article again. It doesn't talk about progressives flocking to Obama at all. What it says is that Paul is right of the republican party and left of the democratic party depending on the issue you look at.

                          It says in that in some respects, he's more progressive than Obama (and he is). It also goes on to outline why most progressives don't/won't support him. So the article seems pretty fair to me (claims on what Obama hates not-withstanding).

                          So the idea that seems laughable, where progressives flock to Ron Paul, seems to be your idea, not the article's.
                          nope, not mine. the article's:

                          Originally posted by reason.org
                          Yet despite Paul’s impeccable Tea Party credentials on tax and spending issues, he would be an even more appealing choice to progressives dissatisfied with President Obama
                          that's just insane. progressives disillusioned with obama, and there are a number, would never, in a million years, go for ron paul.

                          that's not a value judgment on ron paul's positions. but it IS an attack on a libertarian article from a heavily libertarian publication trying to assert something that they know is not accurate.

                          Comment

                          • Dr. Love
                            ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 7830

                            Originally posted by Nickdfresh
                            Um, progressives aren't flocking to Ron Paul...
                            No shit. I'm not claiming they would be (nor is the article).
                            I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

                            http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

                            Comment

                            • Dr. Love
                              ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 7830

                              Originally posted by knuckleboner
                              nope, not mine. the article's:



                              that's just insane. progressives disillusioned with obama, and there are a number, would never, in a million years, go for ron paul.

                              that's not a value judgment on ron paul's positions. but it IS an attack on a libertarian article from a heavily libertarian publication trying to assert something that they know is not accurate.
                              That doesn't say "progressives would flock to Ron Paul".

                              Here's how I read it: Ron Paul should appeal to right-wingers. But even more so, there are issues that he has that appeal more to left-wingers (especially those upset with Obama). Not that he appeals to progressives in general more than Obama, but that he probably has more to appeal to those that care about civil liberties/the warfare state/etc

                              And then it goes on to enumerate the areas where progressives would have a choice if those issues were paramount to them vs where it is today (Obama and Romney are essentially the same). And it also enumerates the areas progressives disagree with Ron Paul and why they don't "flock" to him.

                              So yes, yours, not the article's.
                              Last edited by Dr. Love; 05-27-2012, 04:06 PM.
                              I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

                              http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

                              Comment

                              • Dr. Love
                                ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                                • Jan 2004
                                • 7830

                                Originally posted by FORD
                                No, the answer is remembering what government is, and what it's supposed to be.

                                What's the first three words of the Constiution again?

                                WE THE PEOPLE

                                Not "We the corporations". Not "We the bloated corrupt defense industry" or "We the greedy fucking thieves on Wall Street" or "We the foreign agents of AIPAC and the ChiCom lobbyists".

                                The solution isn't bigger government or smaller government. It's smarter government working for the people and not the 1% criminals. Not wasting money on useless wars that have nothing to do with the United States. Or useless weapons like "Star Wars" and the F-22. Or subsidizing the worst industries on the planet, like big tobacco, greedy oil bastards, and franken food producers like MonSatan. It doesn't actually cost more to produce organic food than it does GMO crap "food". But MonSatan gets the subsidies, and that's why the nutritionally void crap is cheaper in the grocery stores. Shouldn't we be subsidizing actual food instead? As for the tobacco industry, there shouldn't be one anymore. Let alone a subsidized one. I'm not a prohibition advocate, so I'm not saying you need to ban the shit from the planet. Just encourage farmers to grow something else. Like sugar cane, where the climate permits it. If MonSatan was no longer subsidized, you wouldn't see high fructose corn poison in everything, so we would need more. Some of these farms could also grow hemp. No, not just the smokeable kind, though there would be nothing wrong with that either. Hemp for fabric. Hemp for biofuels (far more effecient than MonSatan corn) etc.

                                We really need to roll back all this BCE bullshit of the last 32 years, and go back to the policies that saved this country from fascism the last time, and will do so again.
                                How about we don't subsidize any of them and leave them on an even playing field with no special favors? Let the people decide which product they want to buy and let them buy it.

                                Government is corrupt. More government is more corrupt. The more power the government has, the more special interests will try to corrupt it. I agree with Paul: The answer isn't to regulate everything. Let the people choose what products they want to buy. If a company is polluting the air or environment, let the people sue them and fight it out in court. No company has the right to abuse the environment, but by regulating it and giving so much power to the government, the power will be bought and turned to serve the very groups they are supposed to "protect" us from.

                                Make it easier for the people to control corporate behavior with their wallets. This isn't much different than what happened recently: The banks decided to hike their fees, and a mass exodus of customers got their attention and changed their behavior.
                                I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

                                http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

                                Comment

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