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Thread: ron paul=awesome/kickass?

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    Firstly, on all the political spectrum tests, I tend to come up as a left wing libertarian (meaning I'm more focused on civil liberties and political rights than economic ones)...

    But if we're using China as an example of how freeing up markets in a pluralistic, "mixed-but-capitalist/semi-socialist (in the case of the Chinese)" economy can be a net positive, then we need to look at the economic nightmare of instantly deregulating everything and the trauma of oligarchs and the vast majority living in abject poverty that happened in Russia after the break-up of the Soviet Union. That was sort of true economic face of libertarianism...

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    It still boils down to the quality of your citizens. There's an old saying what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I have some friends who got through the fall of the Soviet Union. They had to grow their own food and they helped each other. They actually started a barter bank where they traded skills with each other and it worked very well. Then when better times come in these people thrive.

    I think JFK had it right when he said don't ask what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country. We have been conditioned to expect the government to do everything for us. People don't take the initiative and just sit around for some government program to help them. Honestly, who would you rather hire, the go getters or the people who expect others to fix their problems? It's a no brainer knowing which group will thrive.

    Sure we need a certain amount of government but from what I see, the government is doing a real lousy job. I really don't see much success there at all. It's become a big feeding trough and in fact, some what used to be great companies have gotten lazy and complacent as well feeding from the trough. It's easier to buy influence in Washington and have government money cover your loses or supply business that it is to compete for it in the worldwide market place.

    At the end of the day failure is failure and winning is winning. I just laugh when people say we are saddling our kids with debt. Well if that actually is going to be the reality the smart kids are going to leave and then you have a country full of domesticated lazy people in a pool of debt. Not much of an asset there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Firstly, on all the political spectrum tests, I tend to come up as a left wing libertarian (meaning I'm more focused on civil liberties and political rights than economic ones)...

    But if we're using China as an example of how freeing up markets in a pluralistic, "mixed-but-capitalist/semi-socialist (in the case of the Chinese)" economy can be a net positive, then we need to look at the economic nightmare of instantly deregulating everything and the trauma of oligarchs and the vast majority living in abject poverty that happened in Russia after the break-up of the Soviet Union. That was sort of true economic face of libertarianism...

    Under the USSR everything was technically government property, including the people. Everyone was in a bread line like that under Soviet rule. If you can say that is the true face of libertarianism, I can say that 1,000 people standing in line for food is the true face of socialism. Our lines are shorter.

    It also takes a while to adjust to a new economic system. A lot of those problems were caused by the Russian government still being corrupt, failing to adjust itself to a market system, paying off Soviet debts, making new debts and the first Chechen War. I would not call what they had "libertarianism". I doubt such a concept existed there.

    Even under not so nice Putin, the tax rate actually went down and the GDP has went up over the past 10 years or so... Of course when you get into big business, it's mostly crony state capitalism. Unlike here, at least they're honest about it.

    A more relevant example would be Germany. East Germany being absorbed into a capitalist (OK, capitalist friendly) system had less trouble adapting than Russia because at least part of the government and people knew what markets even looked like. Giving a quick look to Wikipedia - the per capita income for East Germany in 1984 in 2008 dollars was $21,000 in compared to the current per capita income of Germany being $44,729. A very big difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    While it's true that these allegations about Ron Paul have been out there for years, it's probably the Newt camp that's pushing this right now, out of desperation. Newt's been bashing him in just about every way possible on FAUX and anywhere else somebody sticks a camera in his face.

    I wonder when Newt will accuse Romney of the same thing, basing it on the long standing Mormon doctrine that black folks are descendants of the 1/3 of the angels who were too lazy to fight Satan?
    Actually Mormon Doctrine at least when I was a kid taught dark skin was a curse. The Africans were black because they were descendants of Cain. The native Americans were dark skinned because they were descendants of Laman who in the Book of Mormon was the bad guy. What's funny is suddenly the Mormon prophet had a revelation to allow people of color the priesthood after the BYU sports teams were getting protested on the road due to the church's prejudice against dark skinned people. Then if you go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City they always have some black missionaries there. They seem to like to have cute females. They also seem to like to have dark skinned missionaries in areas where they have a high Mormon population. It's all to create the illusion it's an international church now so the dolts think it's carrying forth the gosphel so they continue to give their money to the mormon god. Lately the new Mormon fad is to adopt a black kid from Haiti. So in the future lots of white geeky Mormon families are going to have at least one black kid. I notice they are phasing out Brigham Young and reinventing Joseph Smith now. Most of the old prejudice teachings were actually taught by Brigham Young. It's interesting how the unchanging gosphel of God constantly changes with the times to survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Spider View Post
    Under the USSR everything was technically government property, including the people. Everyone was in a bread line like that under Soviet rule. If you can say that is the true face of libertarianism, I can say that 1,000 people standing in line for food is the true face of socialism. Our lines are shorter.

    It also takes a while to adjust to a new economic system. A lot of those problems were caused by the Russian government still being corrupt, failing to adjust itself to a market system, paying off Soviet debts, making new debts and the first Chechen War. I would not call what they had "libertarianism". I doubt such a concept existed there.

    Even under not so nice Putin, the tax rate actually went down and the GDP has went up over the past 10 years or so... Of course when you get into big business, it's mostly crony state capitalism. Unlike here, at least they're honest about it.

    A more relevant example would be Germany. East Germany being absorbed into a capitalist (OK, capitalist friendly) system had less trouble adapting than Russia because at least part of the government and people knew what markets even looked like. Giving a quick look to Wikipedia - the per capita income for East Germany in 1984 in 2008 dollars was $21,000 in compared to the current per capita income of Germany being $44,729. A very big difference.
    I went to the USSR in 1978 with my uncle who was a Russian history professor. Most Americans have never been inside a communist country. Let me tell you what buying something was like there and that is if you found something worth buying. First you had to get permission to buy the item. Then you had to have your money approved. Then you had to get permission to move the item. Then you had to get permission to get permission to exchange money for it. You basically wasted a whole day standing in various lines dealing with a bunch of nonsense. Of course all the nonsense created jobs. When your system sucks and you really don't have a real economy, you have to create dumb things for people to do to keep them busy. Also, you ate whatever came in. There was no going to a grocery store full of food. Sometimes nothing would come in for days and then it's all potatoes. So you eat mashed potatoes and if you are lucky enough to have soup you have to spent all day with it in the community kitchen or someone will steal your soup.

    And those were the good things about the system.

    The good thing about the potatoes was you could mash them, ferment them, make a still out of a pressure cooker. You knew you had good proof when you could pour some of the still juice on the seat of a chair and light it on fire. If there is a way to get drunk, a Russian will find it.
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    The only time I've ever seen socialism work is in small communities where everyone thinks the same. I mean in Norway the taxes are very high but everyone seems to like what the government provides. But then Norway has oil to help pay for it all. It seemed to work ok. The most capitalistic place I ever lived was British Hong Kong. All the government did was run the police and fire department. You really had to hustle and the competition was fierce. There were no public schools and if you couldn't afford school you didn't go. Then boats full of people would come into the harbor from the socialist (communist) countries wanting to come in. The result of the capitalism was you could buy anything, there were huge choices of food, clothing, entertainment, and you could make a good living for yourself if you wanted to work for it. There are no free lunches in life and it's not fair and I've seen the extreme of both systems and frankly in my experience, I will choose capitalism. To be frank. I find socialist countries extremely boring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Actually Mormon Doctrine at least when I was a kid taught dark skin was a curse. The Africans were black because they were descendants of Cain. The native Americans were dark skinned because they were descendants of Laman who in the Book of Mormon was the bad guy. What's funny is suddenly the Mormon prophet had a revelation to allow people of color the priesthood after the BYU sports teams were getting protested on the road due to the church's prejudice against dark skinned people. Then if you go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City they always have some black missionaries there. They seem to like to have cute females. They also seem to like to have dark skinned missionaries in areas where they have a high Mormon population. It's all to create the illusion it's an international church now so the dolts think it's carrying forth the gosphel so they continue to give their money to the mormon god. Lately the new Mormon fad is to adopt a black kid from Haiti. So in the future lots of white geeky Mormon families are going to have at least one black kid. I notice they are phasing out Brigham Young and reinventing Joseph Smith now. Most of the old prejudice teachings were actually taught by Brigham Young. It's interesting how the unchanging gosphel of God constantly changes with the times to survive.
    The descendants of Cain argument never made a lot of sense. Because if you presume that Cain and his descendants were made black after Cain killed his brother, then those same descendants would have been wiped out in the Noah's Ark flood, as Noah and his family were descendants of Seth, Adam & Eve's third son.

    Not that the "Mark of Cain" thing originated in the Mormon church, of course. Probably still some fundagelical churches down south preaching that same racial lie.

    The "too lazy to fight Satan" argument must have been before your time in the church, but apparently that was the original explanation that Joe Smith came up with....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    The good thing about the potatoes was you could mash them, ferment them, make a still out of a pressure cooker. You knew you had good proof when you could pour some of the still juice on the seat of a chair and light it on fire. If there is a way to get drunk, a Russian will find it.
    Knowing Russians, a lot of the fun for them would be the setting something on fire part.

    I think there's some kind of natural selection for ADHD going on in that country. If they're bored, something stupid or dangerous is going to happen. I've had several accounts of this. Doesn't even need alcohol. If they're trying to do something stupid and there's alcohol involved, keep a distance of 300 feet, at least.

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    For the most part I like Russians. They pride themselves on being survivors and very tough. They appreciate the little things in life probably more than anyone else. I think the people who like to set things on fire are the Chinese. To celebrate anything they start lighting up the fireworks and if you are on a crowded street during Chinese new year you are fair game. You might have a fire cracker go off in your face. It's all in good fun. We have forgotten how to have fun in this country. The media, the government, and school systems have turned everyone into sludge. I get so tired of hearing why I can't do something.

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    It's to protect you from you...
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    The thing about the Mormon church is the top leaders know it's a fraud. They will spend a fortune buying up old records that paint the church in a less than favorable light and hide them. One guy who worked for the church called Mark Hoffman wised up to this and started selling forgeries to the church for huge sums of money. Since the internet you can find the evidence against the church easy. It's easy to prove Joseph Smith didn't have clue about some Egyptian records he suppossedly translated into new scripture. The whole thing can easily be proven a fraud but even with that evidence, you are shattering someone's system they are engrained in.

    Now they re remaking Joseph Smith. Instead of being the fat pudgy guy with the huge ugly nose as many paintings show him to be, the modern church is making him to look like a handsome hunk. Also the church has gone completely corporate and Salt Lake takes all the money from the local wards so they don't have the fun activities they used to have because the have no money now. The big Christmas dinners are pretty pathetic now. Someone is sucking the money out of the church and not giving much back and without those activities to bind the members, many will bolt. They don't seem to care because they have billions of dollars to reinvest now and frankly don't need the members as much as the early church did.

    Great point on the descendants of Cain. They would have been killed in the flood. But then the church is acting like they don't remember that old doctrine. Like I said, having a black Haitian kid, a harp in the living room, and a Steinway in your McMansion are the new Mormon status symbols.

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    That's some interesting bullshit...

    Makes me want to look into it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    That's some interesting bullshit...

    Makes me want to look into it...
    Questions about Mormonism are answered here by one of Elohim's most famous spokesmen. (No not Mittens!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    That's some interesting bullshit...

    Makes me want to look into it...
    You want some interesting reading look up Mark Hoffman and the Salamander letters. I was only a block away when one of those bombs went off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Spider View Post
    Under the USSR everything was technically government property, including the people. Everyone was in a bread line like that under Soviet rule. If you can say that is the true face of libertarianism, I can say that 1,000 people standing in line for food is the true face of socialism. Our lines are shorter.

    ...
    I was talking about the period of about 1991 to the early 2000's...

    And Germany is a "capitalist state," referred to as a mixed economy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I was talking about the period of about 1991 to the early 2000's...
    So was I. Just not in that paragraph.

    And Germany is a "capitalist state," referred to as a mixed economy...
    I didn't exactly say that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Spider View Post
    Under the USSR everything was technically government property, including the people. Everyone was in a bread line like that under Soviet rule. If you can say that is the true face of libertarianism, I can say that 1,000 people standing in line for food is the true face of socialism. Our lines are shorter.

    It also takes a while to adjust to a new economic system. A lot of those problems were caused by the Russian government still being corrupt, failing to adjust itself to a market system, paying off Soviet debts, making new debts and the first Chechen War. I would not call what they had "libertarianism". I doubt such a concept existed there.

    Even under not so nice Putin, the tax rate actually went down and the GDP has went up over the past 10 years or so... Of course when you get into big business, it's mostly crony state capitalism. Unlike here, at least they're honest about it.

    A more relevant example would be Germany. East Germany being absorbed into a capitalist (OK, capitalist friendly) system had less trouble adapting than Russia because at least part of the government and people knew what markets even looked like. Giving a quick look to Wikipedia - the per capita income for East Germany in 1984 in 2008 dollars was $21,000 in compared to the current per capita income of Germany being $44,729. A very big difference.
    Did you just use the per capita of East Germany in 1984 and compare it to Germany as a whole 25 years later? Nuts.

    East Germany is still not doing well at all, incomes are a third less than the rest of Germany despite massive investment by the West.

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    The facts are pretty straightforward.

    The finance sector lobbied governments for years saying they wanted deregulated.

    When I say lobbied I mean a mixture of legal bribery and pressure using arguments built on academic expert arguments who they also legally bribed.

    This started way back and governments of both sides went along with it. Then when the whole thing goes to fuck the finance sector are saying it's not their fault it's the government/the system which made them do it. Everyone apart from the finance sector picks up the bill.

    The fucking bizarre response to all of this is to want MORE DEREGULATION???

    Fucking mental. Absolutely fucking mental.

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    Also going back to Paul, I know it can't be entirely blamed on him but you worry about someone who has brought up a son who is a fucking mental crazy wackjob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    The facts are pretty straightforward.

    The finance sector lobbied governments for years saying they wanted deregulated.

    When I say lobbied I mean a mixture of legal bribery and pressure using arguments built on academic expert arguments who they also legally bribed.

    This started way back and governments of both sides went along with it. Then when the whole thing goes to fuck the finance sector are saying it's not their fault it's the government/the system which made them do it. Everyone apart from the finance sector picks up the bill.

    The fucking bizarre response to all of this is to want MORE DEREGULATION???

    Fucking mental. Absolutely fucking mental.
    The situation we have now in the US is the big corporations who have bought enough influence in the government have no regulation on them but they are using the government agencies to regulate their competition and put them out of business. So it's corrupt selective regulation. Regulation is only as good as the government that is doing it. I knew something was in the fix when a CEO would literally ruin a company, get fired with a huge severance package and then end up getting a job at another company. Of course many times government money would cover the losses. Then it continued to get worse and worse with derivative speculation becoming legal and a hundred times leverage. Since the big boys are tied to an eternal money machine they want lots of debt. The scheme now is to make everything so expensive people have to buy on credit and then they get the whole country into debt as well. As long as they can get prolonged payments it works but I think people are wising up to the central banking scam. When people refuse to pay the debt or better yet refuse to use the money period, the system collapses.

    The problem with reforming the system is it's just another group that wants to control it. So what needs to be done is the creation of money needs to be an open public utility. Banking in general needs to be that way. The financial system is just too damn secretive and they purposefully make it so complicated and esoteric the average person doesn't understand it anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Also going back to Paul, I know it can't be entirely blamed on him but you worry about someone who has brought up a son who is a fucking mental crazy wackjob.
    He was one of the seven senators that refused to vote for the defense bill that allows our military to arrest you with no trial and hold you indefinitely. The US Constitution forbids the US military being used as a domestic police force and also states everyone is innocent until proven guilty and have the right to a public fair trial.

    The problem with the congress and the president passing legislation that is anti-constitutional is it makes the government criminal. The constitution of the land is above the congress and president and if they aren't going to enforce the law and even illegally break it, then we the people have to step in and take charge. That becomes a potential powder keg. Now that's crazy and the current batch of lawmakers are bringing us closer and closer to a dangerous situation. If it continues without being able to be fixed with elections, then the government will start to divide along certain lines and the states will divide along certain lines and we will be in a situation we haven't been in since the civil war. If people thought this country was coming apart in the 1960's they have no idea how bad the situation can get in just a few short years from now.
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 02-09-2012 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Did you just use the per capita of East Germany in 1984 and compare it to Germany as a whole 25 years later? Nuts.
    Fair enough. I admit that I probably should have looked it up further. I don't really know much about the current economy of Germany because it's not really relevant to anything I've come across before. Perhaps it was nuts... I don't claim to know everything.

    The facts are pretty straightforward.
    The fucking bizarre response to all of this is to want MORE DEREGULATION???

    Fucking mental. Absolutely fucking mental.
    So, basically everyone that disagrees with your opinion of things is just "fucking mental" or "crazy" or "nuts" or whatever. I get it. I've heard it about 3 or 4 times now. Maybe not all directly aimed at me...but enough. My apologies for wanting to discuss and maybe learn something.

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    Passive aggressive hyperbole whatever...

    There is a deeply held at times irrational belief that many Americans have which is that government is always the problem and less of it is always better.

    Go back try and get an open mind and think about it.

    Bear in mind I have nothing to gain either way and only give the smallest tiny fuck what you end up thinking either way unlike most of the media and all of the politicians who offer an opinion to you.

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    Why not for example deregulate high street branch banking security?

    Let's lobby the government to make it legal to do bank robberies. So it's fine to go in with a gun and rob banks.

    I think if you did that then a lot more banks would get robbed. A fuck of a lot more.

    I think it's pretty fucking likely though that a fuck of a lot less money would have gone missing than with the recent crises.

    And it would have been more spread out and with nicer people...

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    The debate between the size of the government needed is as old as this country is. It all boils down to trust doesn't it. I mean the best government would be a benevolent dictatorship. It would be efficient and things would get done but good luck finding one. I've never seen big government work well in big countries like this one. So many parts are so different I really do think we would be better off giving the states more power to regulate themselves as they see fit. Then live in the state that best suits your interests. It's the same problem why a world government would never in reality work, too many different philosophies and interests. Socialism tends to work best in smaller countries where the population tend to want the same things. In big diverse countries it just doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Also going back to Paul, I know it can't be entirely blamed on him but you worry about someone who has brought up a son who is a fucking mental crazy wackjob.
    [citation needed]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Why not for example deregulate high street branch banking security?

    Let's lobby the government to make it legal to do bank robberies. So it's fine to go in with a gun and rob banks.

    I think if you did that then a lot more banks would get robbed. A fuck of a lot more.

    I think it's pretty fucking likely though that a fuck of a lot less money would have gone missing than with the recent crises.

    And it would have been more spread out and with nicer people...
    I think our government already has made bank robbery legal. When MF Global ended up with lot's of it's clients money missing the CEO just shrugged and said he had no idea where the money went and nothing happened to him. Plus, the government should have taken over the banks in trouble instead of just giving them blank checks. There is no auditing being done and no real investigation. It's a pimper's paradise right now and some of the biggest crooks are in the government itself. So the main question is not regulation but who do you trust? Who's trustworthy? The corruption is complete. A modern paper economy is nothing more than a bunch of IOU's. Once the trust is gone in the system it no longer works. Just the other day I saw a guy come into a bank branch and ask if they had any gold. This was a commercial bank and the teller did have some gold coins and he bought several of them. I said I didn't know you guys sold gold and she goes oh, we do now because the demand is up. Why is this? People are losing their trust in the paper system. People don't trust the government either. One reason we have so many banking problems is the government allowed the old banking rules to be deregulated because the banks bought the politicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    The facts are pretty straightforward.

    The finance sector lobbied governments for years saying they wanted deregulated.

    When I say lobbied I mean a mixture of legal bribery and pressure using arguments built on academic expert arguments who they also legally bribed.

    This started way back and governments of both sides went along with it. Then when the whole thing goes to fuck the finance sector are saying it's not their fault it's the government/the system which made them do it. Everyone apart from the finance sector picks up the bill.

    The fucking bizarre response to all of this is to want MORE DEREGULATION???

    Fucking mental. Absolutely fucking mental.
    Deregulation is pointless without the reintroduction of risk. Banks know they can gamble and get bailed out with taxpayer money AND not be tried for their crimes. Take away that safety net and I am positive they act differently. There are a lot of companies that aren't highly regulated AND don't have that safety net that are successful (and a lot that fail).

    My own company's vertical recently became more heavily regulated. It cost us a fair amount of money to become and stay compliant, and a lot of decisions we make now are based in part on how the government has worded/ruled on certain standards.

    The interesting part is that it hurt our competition much, much worse, and ultimately drove many of them out of business. Now we don't have much competition... if you want services like ours, you're going to have to pay whatever we want to charge, and no one can really get into the market because it's just too difficult anymore unless you're entrenched, like we are.

    I don't think that Ron Paul would say every regulation should be rescinded, but I do think he would say that regulations should be just and smart. Liberty is about being able to do whatever you want AS LONG AS it doesn't harm anyone else. What the banks did in 2007/2008 was very harmful to a lot of people, and they should be held responsible for any criminal actions which they committed, and there should be laws against harmful and deceptive practices. Those that break the law should be tried and sent to jail.

    Once the government cracks down on Wall Street and shows them that they will let them go bankrupt, and they will send CEOs and other employees to jail, and that NO ONE is above the law, then they will change their ways. But as long as we allow the banks to lobby and influence the officials that then write the regulations on them, or worse, let them write the regulations themselves, nothing will change. Remove government control/influence, you remove the motivation for people to corrupt the government to control that influence.

    There should be laws, but they should be targeted, and be intelligent, and be limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Love View Post
    Deregulation is pointless without the reintroduction of risk. Banks know they can gamble and get bailed out with taxpayer money AND not be tried for their crimes. Take away that safety net and I am positive they act differently. There are a lot of companies that aren't highly regulated AND don't have that safety net that are successful (and a lot that fail).

    My own company's vertical recently became more heavily regulated. It cost us a fair amount of money to become and stay compliant, and a lot of decisions we make now are based in part on how the government has worded/ruled on certain standards.

    The interesting part is that it hurt our competition much, much worse, and ultimately drove many of them out of business. Now we don't have much competition... if you want services like ours, you're going to have to pay whatever we want to charge, and no one can really get into the market because it's just too difficult anymore unless you're entrenched, like we are.

    I don't think that Ron Paul would say every regulation should be rescinded, but I do think he would say that regulations should be just and smart. Liberty is about being able to do whatever you want AS LONG AS it doesn't harm anyone else. What the banks did in 2007/2008 was very harmful to a lot of people, and they should be held responsible for any criminal actions which they committed, and there should be laws against harmful and deceptive practices. Those that break the law should be tried and sent to jail.

    Once the government cracks down on Wall Street and shows them that they will let them go bankrupt, and they will send CEOs and other employees to jail, and that NO ONE is above the law, then they will change their ways. But as long as we allow the banks to lobby and influence the officials that then write the regulations on them, or worse, let them write the regulations themselves, nothing will change. Remove government control/influence, you remove the motivation for people to corrupt the government to control that influence.

    There should be laws, but they should be targeted, and be intelligent, and be limited.
    Great point. The best regulator is failure. It also makes more wise customers. Once these institutions know they are going to get bailed out they go to seed. Without that government safety net, they know failure means out of business for good. When the investors know there are no bailouts, they really check where they put their money. It's the free market at work.

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  38. Thanked Dr. Love for this KICKASS post:

    Nitro Express (02-10-2012)


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    Democratic Republics don't work well with a lazy uninformed population. The US traditionally never was the mecca for the lazy. We used to be a nation of informed workers and the wealth from that just made us complacent and lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Love View Post
    Ron Paul is popular with people who know without getting the Federal Reserve under the control of the government and opening it up to public scrutiny, nothing is going to change. Whoever controls the money controls everything else and we have an out of control central bank tied to overseas banks. Much of our bailout money went overseas. If you want to talk regulation, Ron Paul wants to regulate the FED. He just doesn't want the government meddling in the free market system to the point of where it ruins the dynamic of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Ron Paul is popular with people who know without getting the Federal Reserve under the control of the government and opening it up to public scrutiny, nothing is going to change. Whoever controls the money controls everything else and we have an out of control central bank tied to overseas banks. Much of our bailout money went overseas. If you want to talk regulation, Ron Paul wants to regulate the FED. He just doesn't want the government meddling in the free market system to the point of where it ruins the dynamic of it.
    but he DOES want the government meddling around with the federal reserve. the last thing i want is congress screwing around with the money supply.
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Love View Post
    [citation needed]
    <object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/ci3L40EL3Cc?version=3&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/ci3L40EL3Cc?version=3&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Love View Post
    Deregulation is pointless without the reintroduction of risk. Banks know they can gamble and get bailed out with taxpayer money AND not be tried for their crimes.
    Kind of a red herring statement. Cunt bank executives were not "gambling" because they thought taxpayers would 'bail them out.' They were 'gambling because they saw it as high reward "risk" and a party that would never get shutdown. And the gov't may have stepped in to shore up some banks, but we had record bank failures IIRC. The ones that were "too-big-to-fail" were shored up.

    It was deregulation, beginning in the late 1970s under Carter, and ratcheted up in the 80s under Reagan and Bush, that fucked us to begin with...

    There are a lot of companies that aren't highly regulated AND don't have that safety net that are successful (and a lot that fail).
    What do you mean? Define "safety net."

    My own company's vertical recently became more heavily regulated. It cost us a fair amount of money to become and stay compliant, and a lot of decisions we make now are based in part on how the government has worded/ruled on certain standards.

    The interesting part is that it hurt our competition much, much worse, and ultimately drove many of them out of business. Now we don't have much competition... if you want services like ours, you're going to have to pay whatever we want to charge, and no one can really get into the market because it's just too difficult anymore unless you're entrenched, like we are.
    Don't worry, your owners will become fat and complacent. They always do...

    But then again, what you advocate here will result in oligarchy and monopolies, so what is the fricking difference?

    I don't think that Ron Paul would say every regulation should be rescinded, but I do think he would say that regulations should be just and smart. Liberty is about being able to do whatever you want AS LONG AS it doesn't harm anyone else. What the banks did in 2007/2008 was very harmful to a lot of people, and they should be held responsible for any criminal actions which they committed, and there should be laws against harmful and deceptive practices. Those that break the law should be tried and sent to jail.
    Seems a rather nebulous philosophy lacking specifics and actual stated policy directives. Without regulation, there aren't really any laws to break, are there? Remember Robber-Baron capitalism? Anyone up for a cannibal-lard sandwich? Yum motherfuckers!

    Once the government cracks down on Wall Street and shows them that they will let them go bankrupt, and they will send CEOs and other employees to jail, and that NO ONE is above the law, then they will change their ways. But as long as we allow the banks to lobby and influence the officials that then write the regulations on them, or worse, let them write the regulations themselves, nothing will change. Remove government control/influence, you remove the motivation for people to corrupt the government to control that influence.
    Well, they wouldn't need to influence a gov't that largely doesn't exist, would they? Ever hear of Robber-Baron capitalism?

    There should be laws, but they should be targeted, and be intelligent, and be limited.
    Or completely socially Darwinist...

    The funny thing is if we actually adopted the retro-cunt Robber Baron, social Darwinism economic model you actually advocated, we'd probably not have this internet to correspond on, as it was actually gov't research devoid of the gnarly, myopic profit-motive that allow it to come to fruition...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 02-10-2012 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Democratic Republics don't work well with a lazy uninformed population. The US traditionally never was the mecca for the lazy. We used to be a nation of informed workers and the wealth from that just made us complacent and lazy.
    Yeah, we need a strong leader to make the trains run on time...

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