Pentagon Says U.S. Citizens With Terrorism Ties Can Be Targeted in Strikes

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  • Dr. Love
    ROTH ARMY SUPREME
    • Jan 2004
    • 7832

    Pentagon Says U.S. Citizens With Terrorism Ties Can Be Targeted in Strikes

    Pentagon Says U.S. Citizens With Terrorism Ties Can Be Targeted in Strikes

    By CHARLIE SAVAGE
    WASHINGTON – The Obama administration’s top Pentagon lawyer on Wednesday said that American citizens who join Al Qaeda can be targeted for killing and that courts should have no role in reviewing executive branch decisions about whether someone has met such criteria.

    “Belligerents who also happen to be U.S. citizens do not enjoy immunity where non-citizen belligerents are valid military objectives,” said Jeh C. Johnson, the Defense Department general counsel, in a speech at Yale Law School.

    Mr. Johnson’s remarks offered an unusually comprehensive and public declaration of the Obama administration’s national security legal policy views in the war against Al Qaeda and its allies. While the outlines of those views have been aired in pieces before, officials usually discuss such matters only on condition of anonymity.

    In raising the targeted killing of an American citizen, Mr. Johnson emphasized that he was not talking about any particular operation. The administration has declined to discuss its killing last September of Anwar Al-Awlaki, a New Mexico-born radical Islamist cleric who died in a drone strike in Yemen that technically remains a covert operation.

    Still, Mr. Johnson invoked a lawsuit filed by Mr. Awlaki’s father before the killing that had sought an injunction against targeting his son, citing with approval a district judge’s decision to dismiss the case and saying that targeting decisions are not suited to court review because they must be made quickly and based on fast-evolving intelligence.

    “Within the executive branch the views and opinions of the lawyers on the president’s national security team are debated and heavily scrutinized, and a legal review of the application of lethal force is the weightiest judgment a lawyer can make,” he said. “And, when these judgments start to become easy, it is time for me to return to private law practice.”

    Mr. Johnson also emphasized that even though the conflict is against an unconventional force, the administration believes that it must apply conventional legal principles – like the Geneva Conventions, international laws of armed conflict, and traditional ways of interpreting domestic wartime statutes – in waging it.

    Still, he described a broad interpretation of the authorization by Congress to use military force against the perpetrators of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, saying that nothing in that statute limited the ability to wage war against Al Qaeda and its allies to the so-called “hot” battlefield zone of Afghanistan.

    “The legal point is important because, in fact, over the last 10 years Al Qaeda has not only become more decentralized, it has also, for the most part, migrated away from Afghanistan to other places where it can find safe haven,” Mr. Johnson said.

    Mr. Johnson explained that in deciding whether an armed Islamist group that is not part of Al Qaeda counts as an “associated force” – meaning it is part of the war, so its members can be targeted or detained without trial – the administration is using a two-part test: such a group must have aligned itself with Al Qaeda, and it must have specifically started fighting the United States and its allies.

    “Thus, an ‘associated force’ is not any terrorist group in the world that merely embraces the Al Qaeda ideology,” he said. “More is required before we draw the legal conclusion that the group fits within the statutory authorization for the use of military force passed by the Congress in 2001.”

    Mr. Johnson also told the Yale Law School audience that it was true that he had sometimes disagreed with the school’s former dean, Harold Hongju Koh, who is now the top State Department lawyer. But he praised Mr. Koh and said it was a good thing that such lawyers were thrashing out difficult legal issues together rather than succumbing to “group think.”

    One of the disputes between Mr. Koh and Mr. Johnson, as reported last year by The Times, was whether the United States’ war against Al Qaeda extended to every member of the Islamist groups in Yemen and Somalia, or just to high-level leaders who were focused on attacking the United States rather than parochial concerns.

    That dispute may have been partly settled earlier this month when a video surfaced in which Ayman al-Zawahri – who took over as Al Qaeda’s leader after United States forces killed Osama bin Laden last year – said that the Shabab, a militant Islamist group in Somalia, had formally joined Al Qaeda.
    The Obama administration’s top Pentagon lawyer on Wednesday said that American citizens who join Al Qaeda can be targeted for killing and that courts should have no role in reviewing executive branch decisions about whether someone has met such criteria.
    I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

    http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif
  • Seshmeister
    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

    • Oct 2003
    • 35196

    #2
    So the US government can execute it's citizens based on intelligence.

    The same intelligence that said there were WMDs in Iraq and that Al Qaeda lived in massive James Bond villain complexes underground in Afghanistan.

    We should at least try and make some good come out of this. Has anyone else heard the rumor that Sammy Hagar has joined Al Qaeda?

    Comment

    • Dr. Love
      ROTH ARMY SUPREME
      • Jan 2004
      • 7832

      #3
      Yep... all they have to do is decide you're a terrorist, and send the drones for you.
      I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

      http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

      Comment

      • Dr. Love
        ROTH ARMY SUPREME
        • Jan 2004
        • 7832

        #4
        Here's a good area for Obama to override them and prove that he's a President of the people, and not just another GWB.
        I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

        http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

        Comment

        • Nickdfresh
          SUPER MODERATOR

          • Oct 2004
          • 49205

          #5
          I don't think this is such a cut-and-dry, easy issue. I'm not sure, but I think actually a guy who lived in the Buffalo/Lackawanna (as in "Lackawanna Six/Seven", as there is a large Yemeni community nearby) area and was a citizen was killed in Yemen by a drone Hellfire strike. I'm pretty sure he was actually up to his ass with plotting with al Qaida, unlike the actual Lackawanna Seven, whom I believe are just patsies of paranoia and the gov't illusion of rounding of phantasm cells of Islamic extremists that largely are non-existent...

          There's a fine line between terrorism being a "law-and-order issue" and the use of the dark arts of counterinsurgency. I think Northern Ireland is a good example of this where IRA members who were ostensibly still "British citizens" were at times shot dead in military ambushes conducted by British Army SAS hit teams with no pretension of trying to arrest them...

          Comment

          • Dr. Love
            ROTH ARMY SUPREME
            • Jan 2004
            • 7832

            #6
            Then they were wrong, as well.

            Look, if Americans are with the enemy (in this case, Al Qaeda), shooting and attacking our soldiers, then yes ... they should be shot.

            If we think they are plotting and committing treason, and aren't engaged in a shoot out with our forces, and aren't resisting, they should be taken into custody if at all possible, put on trial, and, if found guilty, executed.

            Otherwise, we have to simply trust the government that the people they think are guilty of doing bad things are guilty of doing bad things without ever bothering to investigate or try to person. I don't like that idea. I think it's not the country we are; I think it's not the country we want to be.
            I've got the cure you're thinkin' of.

            http://i.imgur.com/jBw4fCu.gif

            Comment

            • ELVIS
              Banned
              • Dec 2003
              • 44120

              #7
              Give up your rights! Al qaeda is everywhere...


              Comment

              • Nickdfresh
                SUPER MODERATOR

                • Oct 2004
                • 49205

                #8
                Originally posted by Dr. Love
                Then they were wrong, as well.

                Look, if Americans are with the enemy (in this case, Al Qaeda), shooting and attacking our soldiers, then yes ... they should be shot.

                If we think they are plotting and committing treason, and aren't engaged in a shoot out with our forces, and aren't resisting, they should be taken into custody if at all possible, put on trial, and, if found guilty, executed.

                Otherwise, we have to simply trust the government that the people they think are guilty of doing bad things are guilty of doing bad things without ever bothering to investigate or try to person. I don't like that idea. I think it's not the country we are; I think it's not the country we want to be.

                I agree with this, however I think it would be a slight exaggeration to say that U.S. citizens are getting routinely zapped by Hellfire missiles...


                Off-topic but interestingly related, I once heard a story on NPR about gov't concerns that the drone operators or remote pilots flying them from USAF bases on the continental United States were actually legitimate military targets even in the US...

                Comment

                • Nickdfresh
                  SUPER MODERATOR

                  • Oct 2004
                  • 49205

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ELVIS
                  Give up your rights! Al qaeda is everywhere...


                  No one said that. But I do believe I once swore an oath to "protect the Constitution from ALL enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC."

                  I'm long out of the Army, but I still believe I adhere to that oath today...

                  Comment

                  • ELVIS
                    Banned
                    • Dec 2003
                    • 44120

                    #10
                    Does that include made up propaganda bullshit enemies ??

                    Comment

                    • Satan
                      ROTH ARMY ELITE
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 6664

                      #11
                      If the US government was really serious about taking out actual terrorists on US soil, they would send a drone to this building......

                      Eternally Under the Authority of Satan

                      Originally posted by Sockfucker
                      I've been in several mental institutions but not in Bakersfield.

                      Comment

                      • Nickdfresh
                        SUPER MODERATOR

                        • Oct 2004
                        • 49205

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ELVIS
                        Does that include made up propaganda bullshit enemies ??
                        Define "made up." Exaggerated, definitely. Or is that silly, ironically named "Truther, Inc." cottage-industry bullshit again?

                        Comment

                        • Seshmeister
                          ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                          • Oct 2003
                          • 35196

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Nickdfresh
                          There's a fine line between terrorism being a "law-and-order issue" and the use of the dark arts of counterinsurgency. I think Northern Ireland is a good example of this where IRA members who were ostensibly still "British citizens" were at times shot dead in military ambushes conducted by British Army SAS hit teams with no pretension of trying to arrest them...
                          The difference there though is it was a secret conspiracy, never put in writing and when it became public there was a huge fucking stink, public enquiries, compensation and all sorts.

                          Also I know it's not a brilliant distinction but at least shooting them didn't involve all the collateral(murder of definitely innocent) casualties that you get with drones.

                          Comment

                          • gbranton
                            Veteran
                            • Aug 2005
                            • 1847

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Seshmeister
                            Has anyone else heard the rumor that Sammy Hagar has joined Al Qaeda?
                            Same hair:

                            "Don't want 'em to get you goat, don't show 'em where it's hid." - David Lee Roth

                            Comment

                            • Nickdfresh
                              SUPER MODERATOR

                              • Oct 2004
                              • 49205

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Seshmeister
                              The difference there though is it was a secret conspiracy, never put in writing and when it became public there was a huge fucking stink, public enquiries, compensation and all sorts.

                              Also I know it's not a brilliant distinction but at least shooting them didn't involve all the collateral(murder of definitely innocent) casualties that you get with drones.
                              There isn't always collateral damage with drones. In fact, in cases where U.S. citizens got waxed by a drone, they were with other adult males who were al Qaida or direct sympathizers IIRC...

                              Here's the story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...O9K_story.html

                              Comment

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