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Thread: Most Americans say the rich don't pay enough taxes

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    Most Americans say the rich don't pay enough taxes

    By HOPE YEN | Associated Press – 19 hrs ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — As the income gap between rich and poor widens, a majority of Americans say the growing divide is bad for the country and believe that wealthy people are paying too little in taxes, according to a new survey.

    The poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center points to a particular challenge for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, whose party's policies are viewed by a wide majority as favoring the rich over the middle class and poor.

    The poll found that many Americans believe rich people to be intelligent and hardworking but also greedy and less honest than the average American. Nearly six in 10, or 58 percent, say the rich don't pay enough in taxes, while 26 percent believe the rich pay their fair share and 8 percent say they pay too much.

    Even among those who describe themselves as "upper class" or "upper middle class," more than half — or 52 percent — said upper-income Americans don't pay enough in taxes; only 10 percent said they paid too much. This upper tier was more likely to say they are more financially secure now than 10 years ago — 62 percent, compared to 44 percent for those who identified themselves as middle class and 29 percent for the lower class. They are less likely to report problems in paying rent or mortgage, losing a job, paying for medical care or other bills and cutting back on household expenses.

    The findings come at the start of this week's Republican National Convention and as both Romney and President Barack Obama seek to appeal to a broad swath of financially struggling voters who identify as middle class. Romney supports an extension of Bush-era tax cuts for everyone including the wealthiest 2 percent, and says his policies will benefit the middle class by boosting the economy and creating jobs.

    "The fact that Romney may be viewed as wealthy doesn't necessarily pose problems for his candidacy," said Kim Parker, associate director of Pew Social & Demographic Trends, noting that people see the wealthy as having both positive and negative attributes. "The challenge for Romney lies more in the fact that large majorities say if he is elected president, his policies would likely benefit the wealthy."

    The results reinforce a tide of recent economic data showing a widening economic divide. America's middle class has been shrinking in the stagnant economy and poverty is now approaching 1960s highs, while wealth concentrates at the top. A separate Pew survey earlier this year found that tensions between the rich and poor were increasing and at their most intense level in nearly a quarter-century.

    In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning over $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.

    The American income tax system has long been designed to be progressive, meaning higher earners are expected to pay a greater share of their income than those making less.

    In this year's tax battle in Washington, Obama wants to let the current top rate of 35 percent for high earners rise to 39.6 percent next year. Congressional Republicans would reduce the top rate to 25 percent, while Romney would reduce it to 28 percent. Romney and GOP lawmakers have said they would eliminate some deductions to pay for the rate reductions, but have not specified which ones.

    According to Pew's latest findings, about 63 percent of Americans say the GOP favors the rich over the middle class and poor, and 71 percent say Romney's election would be good for wealthy people. A smaller share, 20 percent, says the same about the Democratic Party. More Americans — 60 percent — say if Obama is re-elected his policies will benefit the poor, while half say they'll help the middle class and 37 percent say they'll boost the wealthy.

    "The Great Recession was not an equal opportunity disemployer," said Sheldon Danziger, a public policy professor at the University of Michigan who describes the gap between rich and poor as the widest in decades. "College graduates, whites and middle-aged workers had fewer and shorter layoffs than high school graduates, blacks, Hispanics and younger workers. And, only a small percentage of the rich work in the hardest-hit industries, like construction and manufacturing."

    About 65 percent of Americans say the gap between rich and poor has gotten wider in the past decade, while 20 percent believe it has stayed the same and 7 percent say the gap has gotten smaller. Separately, 57 percent say a widening income gap is a bad thing for society; just 3 percent say it is a good thing.

    Asked to estimate how much a family of four would need to earn to be considered wealthy in their area, the median amount given by survey respondents was $150,000. For middle class, the median amount was $70,000.

    Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hardworking (42 percent) than average Americans. But the rich are also seen as more likely to be greedy (55 percent). Thirty-four percent of those surveyed say the rich are less likely to be honest than the average person; just 12 percent say the rich are more likely to be honest.

    The Pew survey involved telephone interviews with 2,508 adults conducted from July 16 to 26. It has a margin of error of 2.8 percentage points.

    ___

    AP Deputy Director of Polling Jennifer Agiesta and reporter Alan Fram contributed to this report.

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    Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hardworking (42 percent) than average Americans.
    What about the ones who've inherited it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Most Americans say the rich don't pay enough taxes
    Because the corporate media propaganda machine, or CMPM© brainwashed them into thinking that...


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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Because the corporate media propaganda machine, or CMPM© brainwashed them into thinking that...


    Like Rupert Murdoch? Why would the "corporate media", owned primarily by the rich, want to brainwash anybody into forcing them to pay more taxes? Do you ever actually think about how stupid you sound when you type nonsensical bullshit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Why would the "corporate media", owned primarily by the rich, want to brainwash anybody into forcing them to pay more taxes?
    That's going into my signature you stupid fuck...



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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    That's going into my signature you stupid fuck...


    Good. Now you can be reminded about how continually retarded you sound with your dumb theories. Incidentally, Alex Jones also qualifies and "corporate media", you sister-diddler. He's making plenty of bank on dolts like you, and the Star™...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    What about the ones who've inherited it?
    Exactly....

    Paris Hilton & Chimpy Bush are certainly rich. But nobody would mistake either one for intelligent.

    And both are walking advertisements for the need of an inheritance tax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdfresh View Post
    alex jones also qualifies and "corporate media"
    lmao !!

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    I understand the idea of millionaires and billionaires paying more than 1% (which in reality is rare, unless crime is involved in which case the gov is failing us by not finding/prosecuting the crime) but when a family combines to make 250k an they pay 80k in taxes please don't expect them to find it fair and vote for the guy who wants to raise their taxes
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    I'm poor. Poor as shit. Got back more than I paid every year for years now. But I don't that that rich people should pay a higher percentage of their earnings just because they have more to give. A flat tax rate with no loopholes is the only truly fair way to tax people. Figuring out how to do this probably not so easy.
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    I am also poor as shit and I'd rather give to taxes than give money to those who choose not to work hard enough to make their own way

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherchicken View Post
    I'm poor. Poor as shit. Got back more than I paid every year for years now. But I don't that that rich people should pay a higher percentage of their earnings just because they have more to give. A flat tax rate with no loopholes is the only truly fair way to tax people. Figuring out how to do this probably not so easy.
    I understand paying any tax on a low income hurts deeply... but I also do not believe anyone should ever get back more than they paid... ever. If that's really the case then get over here and mow my damn lawn!! You owe me and lot of other people...

    A simple flat tax is really the way I think is fair. Just to make it real simple... income is income whether it's earned working or earned from investments. Also doesn't matter where it's earned here or abroad.
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    But c'mon Zah...

    Quite a few, or even most people don't know enough about the tax code and their own income to accurately determine whether or not they got back more than they paid in...

    People are stupid...

    Take asshale for example...

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    Most Americans say the rich don't pay enough taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I understand paying any tax on a low income hurts deeply... but I also do not believe anyone should ever get back more than they paid... ever.
    I agree with you on that one. You can't get back a penny more than you pay in here, and your income has to be ridiculously low to be able to get it all back. Unless you're rich, then there's more loopholes. But even then I don't think anyone above the poverty line gets it all back because the higher your income, the higher your tax bracket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    I agree with you on that one. You can't get back a penny more than you pay in here, and your income has to be ridiculously low to be able to get it all back. Unless you're rich, then there's more loopholes. But even then I don't think anyone above the poverty line gets it all back because the higher your income, the higher your tax bracket.
    I cleary said I was poor as shit. I didn't cheat on my taxes to get more back than I paid. They just gave it to me. But I don't feel bad in the least. Before I wised up and started claiming zero dependants I owed every year. No refund. Just another bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I understand paying any tax on a low income hurts deeply... but I also do not believe anyone should ever get back more than they paid... ever. If that's really the case then get over here and mow my damn lawn!! You owe me and lot of other people...
    The alternative seems to be a massive, continuing polarization of wealth and the impending destruction of the middle class. I agree this might not be the best way to address those issues in a world were corporations often pay little in taxes and people who inherent their wealth pay far less than average and the average workers' salary has remained flat since the 1970's while CEO's salaries have skyrocketed and companies are more profitable than they've ever been. But only discussing jerked-off tax policies while certain parties cut out the wider implications of the above for the future sort of plays into the hands of those swindling, er lobbying, the gov't for their own interests...


    A simple flat tax is really the way I think is fair. Just to make it real simple... income is income whether it's earned working or earned from investments. Also doesn't matter where it's earned here or abroad.
    A simple flat tax would mean the poor and middle classes spend a far greater amount of their income in taxes than would the wealthy, detrimental when it is consumerism of the middle classes that drives the economy!

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    I think that Zah was meaning a flat % rate of tax, Nick. That way everyone would pay the same proportion of their income.

    That's all well in principle, but it seems to me that in a fair society, those with more should contribute more. Otherwise the rich tend to get richer, and the poor tend to get poorer.
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    How much more ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    A simple flat tax would mean the poor and middle classes spend a far greater amount of their income in taxes than would the wealthy, detrimental when it is consumerism of the middle classes that drives the economy!
    I don't agree necessarily for middle-class... poor, yes, paying something would be far greater than nothing or getting more back than they pay in.

    As Binnie clarified, thanks, I was talking a flat percentage tax. Level the playing field, eliminate all loopholes, distribute everything fairly across the board. In my idea, the core economic driver of our economy would end up paying less taxes than today and put more money back into this stalled economy.

    Example earning and tax payment:

    Today:
    Poor Motherchickenshit = ~$24k - pays 0% - (-2%)
    Middle class = $24-100K - 15-28%
    Upper Middle class = $100k - $250k - 28-33%
    Rich (employed) = $250k and up - 33-35%
    Rich (Investor) = $250k and up - 5-15%

    My plan:
    Poor Motherchickenshit = ~$24k - pays 10%
    Middle class = $24-100K - 10%
    Upper Middle class = $100k - $250k - 10%
    Rich (employed) = $250k and up - 10%
    Rich (Investor) = $250k and up - 10%

    Sure it hurts the poor some but no worse than it hurts anyone else. Remove the loopholes and a huge amount of investment income generates huge increases from the "rich".

    If we have to have some form of progressive rate then just set it flat of 10% for up to $250K, 15% for $250K - $1m, 20% for over $1million.

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    250K is not "rich."

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    Quote Originally Posted by binnie View Post
    I think that Zah was meaning a flat % rate of tax, Nick. That way everyone would pay the same proportion of their income.

    ...
    But paying the same percentage isn't really paying the same percentage, that's why Western countries have the progressive system...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I don't agree necessarily for middle-class... poor, yes, paying something would be far greater than nothing or getting more back than they pay in.

    As Binnie clarified, thanks, I was talking a flat percentage tax. Level the playing field, eliminate all loopholes, distribute everything fairly across the board. In my idea, the core economic driver of our economy would end up paying less taxes than today and put more money back into this stalled economy.

    Example earning and tax payment:

    Today:
    Poor Motherchickenshit = ~$24k - pays 0% - (-2%)
    Middle class = $24-100K - 15-28%
    Upper Middle class = $100k - $250k - 28-33%
    Rich (employed) = $250k and up - 33-35%
    Rich (Investor) = $250k and up - 5-15%

    My plan:
    Poor Motherchickenshit = ~$24k - pays 10%
    Middle class = $24-100K - 10%
    Upper Middle class = $100k - $250k - 10%
    Rich (employed) = $250k and up - 10%
    Rich (Investor) = $250k and up - 10%

    Sure it hurts the poor some but no worse than it hurts anyone else. Remove the loopholes and a huge amount of investment income generates huge increases from the "rich".

    If we have to have some form of progressive rate then just set it flat of 10% for up to $250K, 15% for $250K - $1m, 20% for over $1million.

    It hurts the poor and is a complete boon for the rich who basically just sit on their money. The flat tax is just a really bad idea that sounds great until you actually think about it and do the research. As far as the whoa the rich taxes argument, they pay far less than they did under Ike in the 50's and recycle far less of their income back into society than the middle class does....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    It hurts the poor and is a complete boon for the rich who basically just sit on their money. The flat tax is just a really bad idea that sounds great until you actually think about it and do the research.
    OK, we're listening.
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    It's really simple.....

    Back when the rich had to actually pay taxes, the best way to avoid paying taxes was to put the money back into their business, which could be deducted.

    And even if Glass Stegal didn't exist at the time, there would have been no Las Vegas casino speculation on Wall Street, because what would be the point in swindling millions of dollars if 91% of it went to taxes?

    We really need to return to the Eisenhower era tax rates on the rich, in order to kill the Gold Mansacks beast which is destroying this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    As far as the whoa the rich taxes argument, they pay far less than they did under Ike in the 50's and recycle far less of their income back into society than the middle class does....
    As far as taxes under IKE: The top marginal rate during WWII was like 91%. Taxes, even under Ike, slowly but steadily dropped. They really dropped under Kennedy/Johnson. Don't people think that taking 70-91% of a person's income is immoral?

    As it stands, raising the rates another 4% to where they were under Slick Willy WILL NOT solve our deficit problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    As far as taxes under IKE: The top marginal rate during WWII was like 91%. Taxes, even under Ike, slowly but steadily dropped. They really dropped under Kennedy/Johnson. Don't people think that taking 70-91% of a person's income is immoral?
    What is far more immoral, are rich bastards who sit on trillions of dollars (collectively) rather than put it back into the economy, because they know they won't be taxed on it. Or severely undertaxed on what they can't dodge. And what's even more immoral than that are the speculating cocksuckers at Gold Mansacks and similar shitholes who produce nothing, contribute nothing, yet drive the prices up on EVERYTHING. If they had to pay 91% tax, or even 70%, this bullshit would stop immediately.

    As it stands, raising the rates another 4% to where they were under Slick Willy WILL NOT solve our deficit problem.
    Slick Willy left the White House with a surplus. If Chimpy's tax "cuts" for tax dodgers and Chimpy's wars were ended, it would instantly cut the deficit in half.

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    FORD, have you read that book on economics yet? Evidently not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    As far as taxes under IKE: The top marginal rate during WWII was like 91%. Taxes, even under Ike, slowly but steadily dropped. They really dropped under Kennedy/Johnson. Don't people think that taking 70-91% of a person's income is immoral?
    I never said it wasn't. However, read Ford's caveat. Most weren't dumb enough to actually pay that and kept most of their wealth by reinvestment and deductions...you really think the frigging Rockefellers ever paid 91%?

    As it stands, raising the rates another 4% to where they were under Slick Willy WILL NOT solve our deficit problem.
    Neither will bullshit cuts of entitlement programs, although by cutting such programs one is actually reducing disposable income from the poor and seniors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    OK, we're listening.
    Turning to flat tax would be unfair
    Published 8:00 p.m., Sunday, November 13, 2011

    Thirty years ago, about 10 percent of total income went to the top 1 percent of Americans. As of 2005, more than 20 percent of total income went to the top 1 percent. Furthermore, tax rates on the top 1 percent of Americans are lower than they were 30 years ago.

    The wealthiest 20 percent of American households own 85 percent of our nation's wealth.

    Since America has so much debt, logic would suggest that we raise taxes on the very top, have more tax brackets and treat all sorts of income the same. Capital gains require no labor, and the capital gains tax is a big loophole because it's taxed at 15 percent. Our tax code honors earnings of capital gains more than it honors the earnings of labor. Real tax reform would treat all taxes exactly the same.

    The IRS found that the 400 richest families in America are sitting on a total wealth that is greater than the total wealth of the bottom 150 million families. They have huge incomes, but are paying on average a 17 percent tax rate, because of the capital gains loophole.

    Our tax system isn't progressive, it's regressive. Poor people are paying huge shares of their income in Social Security, payroll taxes and sales taxes. It's unfair and a flat tax would make it even more so.

    Jim O'Leary

    Read more: Times Union



    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    FORD, have you read that book on economics yet?
    Have you?

    Evidently not.

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    Brian doesn't understand big words, so here's something he can understand..... cartoons!



    This is how it used to work, before the BCE fucked it all up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    250K is not "rich."
    That is the problem with the whole argument. 'Rich' and 'poor' are very subjective terms, so we'll never agree on where the tax boundaries should be.

    To me, $250K is certainly wealthy. That's doctor and lawyer money where I'm from, and around 6 times higher than the average wage in the UK. But 'rich'? Who knows.....

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    My neighbor makes that kind of money and has nine kids...

    They're by no means rich...

    My wife and I have more play money than they do...

    But it's funny watching these libs decide what should be done with other peoples money, claiming that all wealthy people do is sit on their money...

    Idiots...



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    I know I used that "rich" term in my simplistic tax plan post... Obviously "rich" is subjective and there's no financial scale to classify someone in the $250K income range.

    There's a clear differentiation between a single person making $250k and a family with 9 kids... I'd put the single unit at damn well off or damn close to rich.

    Where the family of 11... average middle class. But the sad part is if both parties earn that rate via employment rather than investments... they are paying the highest tax rates in the US. The family w/ 9 kids is no better off because the child tax credits start getting cut at $110k and disappear at about $170k no matter how many kids you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I know I used that "rich" term in my simplistic tax plan post... Obviously "rich" is subjective and there's no financial scale to classify someone in the $250K income range.

    There's a clear differentiation between a single person making $250k and a family with 9 kids... I'd put the single unit at damn well off or damn close to rich.

    Where the family of 11... average middle class. But the sad part is if both parties earn that rate via employment rather than investments... they are paying the highest tax rates in the US. The family w/ 9 kids is no better off because the child tax credits start getting cut at $110k and disappear at about $170k no matter how many kids you have.
    The simple answer here would be not to have 9 kids. Or only have the kids you can acutally afford on your income (which seems the responsible thing to do).

    Of course there are varities with individual examples and so on, but it seems fair that those who earn more should pay more (within reason). As with most political debates, however, emotive language - 'rich'/'poor' - becomes involved and reason goes out of the window.

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    Or make sure you don't make too much money just to hand it over to the federal charity system...

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    Or if you make $250K, don't try to live like you make $300K...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    My neighbor makes that kind of money and has nine kids...
    If somebody has nine kids without already being rich beforehand, then the correct term for such a person is "batshit crazy".

    And considering such a person is likely Mormon, Catholic, or some other contraception-phobic church, religiously batshit crazy would be more accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    If somebody has nine kids without already being rich beforehand, then the correct term for such a person is "batshit crazy".

    And considering such a person is likely Mormon, Catholic, or some other contraception-phobic church, religiously batshit crazy would be more accurate.
    Black or Mexican. Historically large families/lacking on the birth control front

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redballjets88 View Post
    Black or Mexican. Historically large families/lacking on the birth control front
    Well, the Mexicans would definitely be Catholic, so as I said..... religiously insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherchicken View Post
    I cleary said I was poor as shit. I didn't cheat on my taxes to get more back than I paid. They just gave it to me. But I don't feel bad in the least. Before I wised up and started claiming zero dependants I owed every year. No refund. Just another bill.
    I didn't say you cheated, I said that in Canada you cannot get back more than you paid...

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