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Thread: The Gun Control Thread

  1. #1
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    Enforce the gun laws on the books? The NRA is FULL OF SHIT!

    This deserves it's own thread me thinks!

    License to Kill
    How the GOP helped John Allen Muhammad get a sniper rifle.


    By Brent Kendall

    Bull's Eye Shooter Supply is a warehouse-sized gun store near the waterfront in Tacoma, Wash. Boasting the Puget Sound's largest selection of firearms and ammunition, the store is a mecca for area sportsmen, who come to browse the latest hunting rifles or practice their marksmanship at the store's 12-lane shooting range. An outside wall of the store bears a hand-painted mural depicting lions, elephants, cheetahs, and water buffaloes. Some of the store's firearms, however, have felled more than big game.

    One such gun was a .223-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster XM15 rifle, which Bull's Eye received from the manufacturer on July 2 of last year. On Sept. 21, a bullet from that gun blew through the back of a liquor store manager in Montgomery, Ala. (she died in the emergency room soon after). Two days later, another bullet burrowed through the head of a beauty store manager in Baton Rouge, La., who died instantly. Between Oct. 2-3, bullets from the gun ripped through the bodies of six people in Montgomery County, Md., killing all of them. Over the next three weeks, the gun claimed seven more victims--including a bus driver, a female FBI analyst, and a 13-year-old schoolboy--killing four of them. Finally, on Oct. 24, law enforcement authorities found the Bushmaster in the back seat of a blue Chevy Caprice occupied by John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.

    Exactly how the gun got into the men's hands remains something of a mystery. Muhammad was banned by federal law from purchasing any gun because of a restraining order obtained by his ex-wife; his ineligibility would have shown up during the Brady background check that gun stores are required to run on potential buyers. Malvo was ineligible because he was a juvenile and an illegal immigrant. Bull's Eye has no record of selling the weapon, much less conducting a background check on Muhammad or Malvo for it. Bull's Eye employees have reported seeing Malvo at the store this summer, and later noticed the Bushmaster was not in its display case. But the store did not file the federally required theft report. When the store's owner, Brian Borgelt, was questioned by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), the federal agency charged with enforcing the nation's gun laws, he claimed not to have known the gun was missing until authorities traced it back to his store. Two weeks after the sniper suspects' arrests, he filed the theft report with the police and ATF.

    This wasn't the first time that Bull's Eye was caught unable to account for deadly firearms that had passed through its doors. ATF inspectors, armed with data showing that weapons used in crimes had originated from Borgelt's store, audited it three times between 1998 and 2001, and found record-keeping irregularities each time. An audit in 2000 revealed that Borgelt could not account, through sales records, for 160 guns. Being unable to account for the whereabouts of even one-fifth that many weapons would be alarming, according to former ATF agents, even for a store the size of Bull's Eye. Moreover, Borgelt hadn't filed personal income tax returns since 1995 and hadn't filed some business tax forms since 1994--this despite $1.5 million in store bank deposits.

    Yet despite all the warning signs, ATF didn't shut the store down. It didn't suspend Bull's Eye's license, or put it on probation. It didn't even administer a fine--not one $5 ticket to let the store know that the bureau meant business. Two years later, a $1,600 sniper rifle seems to have disappeared from the store like a pack of M&Ms from a convenience mart, surfacing 3,000 miles away in one of the biggest killing sprees in American history--oh, and one more thing: Bull's Eye is still open for business.

    In the wake of September 11, the CIA, FBI, and INS have all been picked apart for failing to act on information that might have prevented the terrorist attacks. So far, there has been no similar call for investigating ATF, even though experts worry that Muhammad--a member of the Nation of Islam who reportedly considered America a terrorist state--may inspire al Qaeda or other terrorist groups to conduct similar attacks with easily obtained sniper rifles.

    But there's a reason you won't see anyone investigating ATF: Its failings are the direct result of actions by the Republican politicians who now control both houses of Congress. At the behest of the National Rifle Association (NRA), GOP lawmakers (and some conservative Democrats) have saddled the bureau with so many legal restrictions that it has little practical power to deter sellers from allowing weapons to flow to criminals. ATF could have cracked down harder on Bull's Eye, but its lack of aggressiveness was precisely what GOP lawmakers had intended. Pro-gun-control Democrats could have made an issue last fall of how Muhammad obtained a sniper rifle, but they remained silent in the face of feared retribution at the polls by the NRA. Now, as the minority party, Democrats have little power to investigate anything, even if they wanted to.

    Convenient Lack of Suspicion

    Every year, more than 200,000 guns used in crimes are traced back to licensed gun dealers like Bull's Eye. Some are originally purchased by law-abiding citizens and later stolen. Others get sold (inadvertently) by dealers to "straw purchasers" who don't have criminal records but are acting as fronts for criminals. In many other cases, however, gun dealers eager to make an extra buck simply sell firearms to anyone who wants them, skipping background checks and falsifying paperwork to cover their tracks.

    Of the 83,000 retail firearms dealers in America, ATF shuts down only about 25 annually. These are the most egregious wrongdoers, dealers caught red-handed fencing stolen weapons or openly selling large numbers of firearms to criminals. Yet these few cases account for only a fraction of the guns that flow to criminals from licensed dealers. The bigger problem stems from hundreds of other dealers who, through laziness, sloppy inventory control, convenient lack of suspicion, or under-the-table shenanigans, wind up arming criminals.

    It is these dealers that ATF has virtually no power to control. Though it can shut a dealer down permanently--a fitting punishment only in egregious cases--ATF has no power to temporarily suspend a dealer's license, or impose a fine--steps that might remind a dealer to be vigilant about sales rules. Nor can it audit a gun dealer more than once a year, a rule that assures crooked dealers 364 days to do uninterrupted business. And because of dubious judicial precedent, the bureau's agents can't get a dealer charged with selling to a felon by going undercover and posing as felons.

    Worse still, from a law-enforcement perspective, is the fact that federal law treats all record-keeping errors by gun dealers as, at most, misdemeanors--even in cases where ATF can prove that a dealer falsified records. This makes it practically impossible to bring gun dealers to court for record-keeping violations, since federal prosecutors, already burdened with more felony cases than they can litigate, usually don't accept misdemeanor referrals.

    You'll be hard pressed to find another federal agency that, charged with enforcing laws dealing with legal but potentially dangerous products, must operate under similar handicaps. The Drug Enforcement Administration, which monitors the illegal diversion of prescription drugs, can pursue felony charges against a pharmacy for record-keeping problems; temporarily suspend the license of a problematic pharmacy; and when it has evidence of wrongdoing, mount an undercover approach to determine if a doctor is writing bogus prescriptions or if a pharmacist is illegally dispensing controlled substances. Even the Department of Agriculture, which is notoriously emasculated when it comes to enforcing federal standards, can, after a major food poisoning incident, temporarily stop production at an unsanitary meat packing plant, fine the plant, and re-visit for a new round of inspections in six months.

    Reagan's Political Trifecta

    Washington has been trying to keep deadly weapons out of criminal hands for almost seven decades. In 1934, alarmed by the violence of organized criminals like Al Capone, Congress passed the nation's first gun-control law, which gave the Treasury Department the power to tax and require owner registration of "gangster-type weapons." In 1938, it passed another measure requiring gun manufacturers and dealers to obtain federal licenses and banning the sale of firearms to known criminals. Thirty years later, in response to rising crime rates and the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King Jr., the federal government clamped down further with passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Among other things, this law mandated that sellers keep transaction records and prohibited felons, illegal aliens, and a few other categories of people from buying or possessing firearms. In 1972, Treasury designated ATF as a separate agency in the department.

    The NRA vehemently opposed the 1968 legislation, which marked the beginning of the association's transformation from its more traditional focus on training sportsmen in gun safety into the anti-enforcement, lobbying superpower we know today. Since 1968, the association has increasingly devoted more resources to waging political fights, and has constantly lobbied to minimize the power of ATF, often breathing fire when speaking of it. During the 1970s as ATF stepped up its policing of gun dealers, the NRA fought back, portraying ATF agents as "jack-booted fascists" and arguing that efforts targeting gun stores and their customers were nothing more than harassment. After all, the NRA argued, criminals don't get their guns from gun stores; they steal them from law-abiding gun-owners.

    At the end of the decade, the NRA found a big friend in Ronald Reagan. By being anti-ATF and supporting gun dealers, Reagan could demonstrate that he was pro-gun, pro-small business, and anti-federal regulation--the perfect trifecta for a conservative Republican. The Gipper promised to eliminate ATF, and once in office he moved to make the pledge good. When the NRA reversed its position, fearing that a proposed merger with the Secret Service would make federal firearms authority politically untouchable, Reagan backed the NRA in substituting deregulation for reorganization, signing the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which significantly curtailed ATF's enforcement powers against the firearms industry. The law limited the number of times ATF could conduct a compliance audit on a gun dealer to once a year. More importantly, it reduced all record-keeping violations--no matter whether there was one violation or a thousand, and no matter if records were falsified--to misdemeanors, thus entirely removing the threat that ATF could pursue felony charges against dealers flouting record-keeping laws and selling guns to prohibited persons under the table.

    Gunning for Reform

    Bill Clinton's election began to change the landscape in two ways. First, in 1993 the administration passed, against stiff GOP opposition, the Brady law, which required gun dealers to run background checks on all buyers. The next year, it pushed through Congress legislation banning most new assault-style weapons and prohibiting juveniles from possessing handguns. The NRA responded by declaring war on the president and the Democratic Party. The Democrats lost their majorities in both houses of Congress that year; most political experts credit NRA campaign efforts with several key GOP victories.

    By 1995, however, the Brady law was beginning to show results. In its first year, it had blocked 40,000 attempts to purchase firearms by criminals, juveniles, and other prohibited persons--evidence that in fact many criminals were looking to gun stores for their firepower. Beginning the next year, the Clinton administration directed ATF to work with local law enforcement to expand the tracing of guns recovered by police, and to invest in new tracing technologies. As a result, ATF discovered that tens of thousands of crime guns actually flowed from licensed retail dealers and pawnbrokers to the streets. Moreover, most of the guns flowed primarily from a small minority of dealers--just 1.2 percent of dealers accounted for 57 percent of those crime gun tracings (ATF shuts down only about one in 40 of these per year).

    Believe it or not, these were stunning discoveries, and they demonstrably proved that, despite decades of NRA propaganda, gun stores do play a major role in supplying criminals with guns.

    Responding to the information, the White House won big increases in ATF's enforcement and inspector ranks. But to really deter licensed sellers from violating federal laws--as opposed to just arresting them after guns hit the streets--ATF needed powers to encourage compliance: the ability to levy fines, suspend licenses, audit when necessary, and charge dealers with felony record-keeping violations when appropriate. The Clinton administration and a few lone voices in Congress, especially Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), pushed legislation to give ATF this new authority while also requiring background checks at gun shows.

    A string of high-school shootings, which peaked with the catastrophe at Columbine High School, gave the legislation enough momentum to narrowly pass the Senate in 1999, with Vice President Al Gore providing a tie-breaking vote. The House passed a weaker version of the Senate bill, and the measure died when efforts to reconcile the two versions went nowhere. Gore's highly publicized vote, according to many political analyses, was a major factor in his loss of West Virginia's five electoral votes in the 2000 election.

    In theory, the sniper shootings should have been an occasion to raise again the issue of ATF's limited enforcement powers against dealers supplying criminals with guns. But while debates have raged about whether congressionally imposed restraints on the CIA and the FBI contributed to those agencies' failures to foresee impending terrorist activity, few have asked about similar restraints that might have kept ATF from preventing the terror on the East Coast--even if it had usable information. And it's pretty obvious why. Republicans, as the architects of the current regulatory system, are directly responsible for ATF's limited powers. Democrats, still smarting from the drubbings they took in 1994 and 2000, are understandably nervous about stirring up the gun issue, even though the sniper shootings happened in the thick of an election cycle and captured nationwide attention.

    Other than in a few scattered newspaper editorials, the issue of ATF enforcement has stayed off the public radar screen. By and large, people have little clue just what the laws are, and they have no idea how toothless ATF is when it comes to policing gun dealers. Even government lawyers don't know how hamstrung the bureau is. "I've sat in rooms of federal prosecutors--career prosecutors--and ATF people are explaining to them, 'This is the way firearms commerce is governed,'" says David Kennedy, a senior researcher in criminal justice policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, "and the prosecutors don't believe them. It's surreal."

    Had ATF been vested with sensible enforcement powers, the world might never have heard of John Allen Muhammad or John Lee Malvo. Had a few political fights turned out differently, the bureau would have been able to fine Bull's Eye for its previous violations, suspend its operations, or pursue felony record-keeping charges. Had the NRA and GOP not worked together to cripple the federal government's ability to enforce gun laws, bullets from that Bushmaster rifle might not have ended the lives of 10 people along the Interstate 95 corridor. Yet despite the dead, the wounded, and the terrified, little has changed politically. If horrors such as these can't spark public scrutiny and political outrage, it's hard to understand what will.

    Yup! Wouldn't want to "enforce the laws on the books" as is so much vaunted in NRA propaganda! I mean why restrict our absolutionist personal sense of entitlement so we can go, oh say, fill up our tank with gas without getting fucking shot!? NEVER!

    BTW, I am a Republican and a gun owner!
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  2. #2
    Fuck this and fuck that
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    Bullseye should have been permanently shut down for that shit. I know exactly where that store is. There's iron bars on the doors and windows. Nobody broke in that store and stole a weapon, and I seriously doubt that John Muhammad was able to stick a rifle down his pants and walk out the door with it.

    My theory has always been that it was a cash sale "under the table" with a nice bonus thrown in for the employee who didn't report the sale.

    And if that's proven to be the case, that employee should be on trial as an acessory to 10 murders.

    The gun show idiots responsible for putting weapons into the hands of Harris & Klebold at Columbine should be tried as well, even though it's probably going to be tough to prosecute a case where the primary suspects are dead.
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    I've just always gotten' pissed when I hear the 'jack-booted thug' bullshit!

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    I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

    Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

    I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

    An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

    I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

    It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

    We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

    Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

    Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.
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    Originally posted by Nitro Express
    I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

    Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

    I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

    An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

    I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

    It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

    We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

    Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

    Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.
    You make some valid points, but a scoped/accurarized AR-15/M-16A2 fires a 5.56mm round at about 1000 meters/per second, and can hit targets out to 600 or 800 meters. Accurarized versions were used by the military as intermediate, semi-auto sniper rifles ( I think they've gone back to heavier M-10/M-21 type weapons).

    But the point is, why is this gun store still open? And what if a college kid decides to buy a dozen weapons for Al-Qaida operatives?

    And finally, you cannot dismiss the statistics of 11,000+ gun deaths in the US per year.

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    Yeah, I'm aware that they shoot the 5.56 round out that far and I'm amazed the wind doesn't blow that little bullet off target more. People at my local gun club shoot accurized AR-15's. But a real sniper is going to use something heavier in my book.

    Shit, you would have thought the IRS would have shut the store down for not paying taxes. The problem with the gun battle in the US is each side is very radicle. One side wants to take all the guns and one side wants every type of firearm to be legal. Each side tottaly distrusts the other and there isn't going to be any compromise. So the politics gets dirty. you may have a real point on what's going on. Personaly I think that store should be closed down.

    Another problem is the 2nd Amendment in the US Bill of Rights, everyone interprets that different. I mean if you try and grab the guns, you are going to stir up a war. You will piss off so many Timothy McViegh types you would have another terrorist type war going on. I think the states should make their own gun laws and the federal govt. should stay out of it.

    Like I said, we are becoming more of a divided country on many issues. If you like more of a liberal lifestyle and more gun regulation, California is the place for you or maybe New York.

    This gun debate like abortion has gone on forever and will continue to go on. There are plenty of places to live with real strict gun laws in the world.

    Guns are just part of American culture and will continue to be. It's a cultural thing and some may think it's stupid but it's there and will always be there. What's funny is both the liberals and conservatives distrust authority. Right wingers don't want gun regulation because they don't trust the govt. Left wing environmentalists don't trust big oil companies or Bush appointed EPA secretaries. It really boils down to a distrust of authority and that makes any negotiation impossible.

    There's a lot of gun owners who in a real sense would welcome higher saftey measures, regulation but they don't trust the system. That's the real problem. They are afraid if it's once in some data base, then they can become targets later on as the people in power change. People in Germany could own firearms and then Hitler made gun registration manditory. The govt. later paid you a vistit and asked for your gun.

    I guess many Americans are willing to tollerate some gun deaths over the potential of opening pandoras box to loosing their right to bear arms. It's been that way for a long time and isn't going to change anytime soon.

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    http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...15/1039387.asp

    Bulletproof gun industry
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Legislation would protect manufacturers, dealers no matter how negligent they are

    4/15/2005
    In most cases, a responsible gun dealer - or manufacturer, for that matter - should not be at risk for what a customer does with a firearm. But that common-sense policy is being stood on its head by an irrational bill about to be taken up by Congress.

    The legislation essentially handcuffs the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and makes it harder to sue gun dealers and manufacturers. The bill, introduced by Idaho Republican Sen. Larry Craig and Rep. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla., virtually makes the gun industry bulletproof even when negligence on the part of dealers or manufacturers results in death.

    The bill would quash all lawsuits against the gun industry, except where there is absolute evidence that the gun dealer knowingly broke the law. The problem, of course, is knowing what's in a person's mind. The bill essentially would give almost blanket protection against gun makers and dealers from suits seeking damages.

    Gun advocates contend the legislation would prevent frivolous lawsuits. They further maintain that laws already on the books prohibit illegal activity. Every retail gun sale, for example, has to undergo an FBI background check.

    We don't see a problem with protecting dealers from broad class-action lawsuits based solely on what someone does with a gun purchased from a responsible dealer. But this bill would also protect irresponsible dealers.

    In addition to stopping cities and states from filing lawsuits against the gun industry, it would preclude civil lawsuits like the ones filed by the families of the victims of the Washington, D.C., snipers, who used a rifle that was among the 283 guns "lost" by a Tacoma gun dealer over a three-year period. When was the last time a retailer lost 283 of anything? Yet this bill would protect that dealer from lawsuits.

    This misguided legislation could end up harming gun users themselves. A hunter, for example, would not be able to sue even if a poorly made gun blew up in his face.

    This page has no problem with Americans owning guns. But we do have a problem with gun advocates who block any legitimate effort to make sure guns don't get into the wrong hands.

    According to FBI and state records, 35 people whose names appeared on terrorism watch lists were permitted to buy guns. That's how surreal the situation has become. It seems there is no limit to efforts to protect anybody and everybody involved in the manufacture and sale of firearms.

    This legislation is another in a long litany of efforts to prevent any gun legislation that would increase public safety. President Bush signed a law in January 2004 to allow the government to destroy all records from background checks of gun purchasers after 24 hours. Of course, dealers at gun shows in most states can sell their wares without a background check.

    Gun advocates view any limits on gun sales or liability for negligence as an assault on their rights as citizens. That is far from the case.

    What this bill would do is give the gun industry the kind of immunity enjoyed by no other industry. It does not deserve passage.

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    What?

    im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them. u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/re...s3.3Screen.pdf
    and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault? FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless. i strongly suggest all of u listen to what Diamond DLR has to say on the radio on monday and tuesday here on the site. maybe it will open ur eyes up. DLR is the man listen and learn from what he has to say and check out the site above.
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    i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted

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    Re: What?

    Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
    im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them....
    Heheheh...very funny sentence, thanks! Care to actually debate some of the facts of the first article in this thread? No, you really can't can you?

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    Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
    i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted
    Yup! Can't fly on an airliner but little Achmed can sure still buy his Chinese made AKM knock-off!


    Tell that to the families who lost their loved ones in the D.C. Sniper case...I bet they were pretty terrorized!

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    Re: What?

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
    im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time

    Obviously. In your case, spelling a three letter word is a "waste of ur time"

    if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them.

    Unlike "u" who gets all "ur" propaganda from FAUX, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent records.

    u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/re...s3.3Screen.pdf

    I checked out the site, and it turns out the guy who runs it is such an extremist that he was banned from the extremist website "Free Republic". If even RimJob thinks this guy's a wacko extremist, I ain't taking his word for shit. Let alone his illiterate toady.

    and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault?

    It could be. If the brakes or the steering failed on the truck, and that was the cause of the accident, then the company should be liable.

    FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

    Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

    just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.

    No, that would be the fault of an irresponsible gun owner, whether it was a redneck militia fuck who sold a gun to a kid at a gun show, or a homeowner who was too goddamn stupid to lock up his weapons in a gun safe.

    its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless.

    Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter.

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    Re: Re: What?

    Originally posted by FORD
    Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter. [/B]

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    Re: Re: What?

    Originally posted by FORD


    FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

    Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

    . [/B]
    I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet
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    Re: Re: Re: What?

    Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
    I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet
    A sports team keeping their equipment in a locker in between games is a completely reasonable practice.

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    GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE yes overused but true.

    oh im sorry i didnt know we were typing essays here jackass. obviously ur priorities are missplaced seeing as ur more woried about spelling than whats being said, maybe u should stop cryin because JFK lost, its over W is prez for a few more years get over it. hey someone got shot by a carzy guy boo hoo cry about it so lets blame guns. i blame boeing for 911. that site isnt the only one u can check facts on either but i guess u dont really know how to use Google. LISTEN TO DLR on the radio. like dlr says knives work better than guns they have silencers on em and work well in crowded areas. so u want to blame them too, kinda like australia...um they're doin real good with crime now a days arent they? i tell u what its a good thing ur not the future b/c this country would really be screwed. hey heres a good idea lets take all guns away b/c they cause crime and murder like pencils cause misspellings and then we can all frollic in the meadows together and everything will be peachy. or if u want to come to reality use the internet if u can handle that and do some research on how Brittan's doin on crime since they started banning guns. or do some research on Nazi germany, they started banning, confinscating guns from the people, and registering them just before they started kilin everyone. maybe run a search for some facts unstead of turning on the 5:00 news or one of those Michael Moore movies tonight. "It could be. If the brakes or the steering failed on the truck, and that was the cause of the accident, then the company should be liable"....hows that relate to the frivilous lawsuit shit we were discussing? WAY OFF! u made a bigger ass of ur self rambling on ignorantly like that than i do makin spelling erors oops theres one now. "Yup! Can't fly on an airliner but little Achmed can sure still buy his Chinese made AKM knock-off!" yep b/c its sooo easy to get guns eh???? funny u mention the ak like its a bad ass gun. ha its the cheepest most inacurate piece of shit out there ur little Achmed pal would be better off buyin a hunting riffle, shoots the same, semi auto but more accurate. AKs are pieces but u probably see em shootin fully auto in the movies and think there dangerous bullet spewing assualt weapons. how many times have they used em to carry out terrorist attacks here? Oh. isnt there ways for the goverment to check for whos buyin guns? oh ya there is,background checks...that little yellow sheet u have to fill out on the spot before u can even think of pickin up a gun.
    i posted facts but if u dont like them u can just keep gettin urs from FOX news and CNN its ok you'll die before me and i can make ur wrongs right. if u dont like guns dont buy em and when u get em all from the criminals than u can have mine. hey maybe we should make murder and robbery illegal and focus on that before we worry about other things. or we can start banning hands and feet first than move on to guns and knives b/c more crimes are committed with bare hands and feet than weapons. enjoy the spelling....

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    The above post is evidence of why David Lee Roth and John Mellencamp couldn't wait to get the fuck out of Indiana.

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    Originally posted by FORD
    The above post is evidence of why David Lee Roth and John Mellencamp couldn't wait to get the fuck out of Indiana.
    Maybe you are one of the reasons why Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley couldn't wait to get out of Washington state. Dumbass.
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    Considering they both died here, that's an extremely illogical statement.

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    Originally posted by FORD
    Considering they both died here, that's an extremely illogical statement.
    Not really. They left, didn't they?

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    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
    Not really. They left, didn't they?
    It was, however, a low blow. Drug abuse is nothing to make fun of.

    Know Me Broken By My Master
    Teach Thee On Child Of Love Hereafter

    Into The Flood Again
    Same Old Trip It Was Back Then
    So I Made A Big Mistake
    Try To See It Once My Way

    Drifting Body Its Sole Desertion
    Flying Not Yet Quite The Notion

    Am I Wrong?
    Have I Run Too Far To Get Home?
    Am I Gone?
    And Left You Here Alone
    If I Would Could You?

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    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
    It was, however, a low blow. Drug abuse is nothing to make fun of.

    Know Me Broken By My Master
    Teach Thee On Child Of Love Hereafter

    Into The Flood Again
    Same Old Trip It Was Back Then
    So I Made A Big Mistake
    Try To See It Once My Way

    Drifting Body Its Sole Desertion
    Flying Not Yet Quite The Notion

    Am I Wrong?
    Have I Run Too Far To Get Home?
    Am I Gone?
    And Left You Here Alone
    If I Would Could You?
    Layne wrote that song for Andrew Wood of Mother Love Bone. He might as well have written it for himself

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    Bump!

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    BTW, in the 1980s the ATF was one of the most feared agencies by violent, armed drug dealers since they used to put people behind bars for either five or 15-years. No parole, no sentence reductions, no plea bargains, no questions! You had an illegal gun while committing a felony (possession of large amounts of drugs), you were going to jail!

    Not any more, they were castrated by the NRA lobbyists. Better to have unfettered access to guns at stores violating laws I suppose...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 10-11-2006 at 06:40 AM.

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    Timely bump!

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    I don't like what the NRA has become... never been a member but have friends that are. The political bullshit being spewed from that end of the field is way off the reasonable and educated scale... and has nothing to do with gun rights even remotely.

    I read that membership is up to 4.3 million and that lobby has thrown more Democratic elections than any other. Too much power for a lobby... I'd like to see the whole playing field for lobbyists wiped clean and eliminated completely.
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    When Poppy Fucking Bush himself resigned his NRA membership and called them a bunch of "jackbooted thugs", that should have been enough of a clue for any person with a reasonable amount of sanity to realize what they were all about.

    Not to mention when they gave Howard Dean an A+ rating during his entire term as Vermont governor, and then immediately attacked him when he ran for President, even though Dean's actual views on guns hadn't changed at all.

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    Nick, I've been meaning to mention it for some time, and this thread is as good as any - LOVE the new video sig. Who is that lovely athlete?
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    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Shark View Post
    Nick, I've been meaning to mention it for some time, and this thread is as good as any - LOVE the new video sig. Who is that lovely athlete?
    Aussie hurdler Michelle Jenneke. The full dance is on Youtube...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I don't like what the NRA has become... never been a member but have friends that are. The political bullshit being spewed from that end of the field is way off the reasonable and educated scale... and has nothing to do with gun rights even remotely.

    I read that membership is up to 4.3 million and that lobby has thrown more Democratic elections than any other. Too much power for a lobby... I'd like to see the whole playing field for lobbyists wiped clean and eliminated completely.
    The National Rifle Association used to be a national gun club and it's real purpose was to oversee amd sponsor shooting competitions. When I played in tennis tournaments I had to be a member of the USTA and when I entered shooting competitions I usually had to have an NRA card. I think since the 1960's the NRA just got more and more political.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post

    BTW, I am a Republican and a gun owner!
    [/i]


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    The Gun Control Thread

    All the NRA is doing is manufacturing more violence to justify their warped paranoia. I myself own a gun (a Taurus 9mm) and oh yes, it's sexy but I never bought on the ridiculousness that the NRA says I should.
    Kristy, did you take the NRA sponsored safety course or one by some other organization, since you are a concerned gun owner ?

    You should if you haven't.

    I took one back in 1974 and another refresher course back in 1979 when I went for my Louisiana safe hunter game license.

    Every gun owner should be required to qualify on a range, by a licensed NRA, gun safety class...myop.

    By required I mean you should require that of yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    Guns are not a substitute for shitty debate skills. The only way anyone needs an assault rifle to hunt deer is if the fucking deer are shooting back.

    Assault rifles have the option to go full auto so technically an AR-15 isn't an assault rifle nor is a semiautomatic only Kalashinikov an assault rifle. They are semi-automatic carbines and rifles that can take a large magazine. Now you have semi-automatic rifles that look like regular hunting rifles but they won't take a big 30 round or larger magazines. The AR and AK styled weapons shoot small calibers. .223, 762x39, 5,45x39. The reason is such weapons are designed to be effective out to 300 meters and not long ranges and the smaller rounds allow you to carry more rounds.

    Not the best weapons to go deer hunting and in most states using such small rounds for deer hunting is illegal. You need to have more velocity and a heavier bullet than the 7,62x39 soviet. I would say the smallest you want to go is a 30-30 winchester at short ranges and then use something in the 30-06 range for longer distances. Those are proper deer hunting calibers.

    The real issue is magazine capacity and then of course if you can change out the magazine with the push of a button you have a quick reload. People get too fixated on what the gun looks like. The last assult rifle ban did nothing about magazine capacity. It focused on what the gun looked like and forbid having a pistol grip, a flash hider, and a bayonett lug. As long as the gun looked more like a hunting rifle you could slap a 80 round wind up drum on it.

    So what they need to do is focus on magazine capacity. For a rifle make it five rounds. You can also modify the new guns so the old magazines won't fit so all the new ones can only use the short magazines. Also another cool thing some gun manufactures like Bersa are doing is they have a built in lock in the gun that you lock with a little key. It just looks like a hex screw on the side of the gun so if you lock it the action locks up and the gun can't be used. So if someone steals the gun or kids get to them unless they have the key, they aren't shooting them.

    One new form of technology that is being looked at is to have an electronic trigger system where the gun won't fire unless the shooter is wearing a special ring. This is being looked at for law enforcement so if their firearm gets snagged and taken away from them, it won't fire.

    I just see a realistic solution is limiting the magazine capacity and putting some built in saftey locks in the guns so if they get stolen they can't be used. The reality is there are millions of guns out there. You can change laws and restrict the sale of things but it's very difficult to take away what's out there without setting off a big powder keg. I mean if the government really wanted to get the guns they could offer awsome rewards for trading your AR-15 in. The way the federal government wastes money why not offer people a brand new pickup for their AR-15 or AK? There's a lot of rednecks that would go for that offer. LOL!
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 12-15-2012 at 03:28 PM.

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    Maybe some public announcements on gun safety would do some good. Run them on the radio and television. Ford mentioned gun safes but if you live in an apartment or rent, that's not a realistic option but what you can do is lock the magazines up separate from the gun. You can pull the bolt or bolt carrier out of a rifle and lock that up. You can pull the slide and barrel off a semi automatic pistol and lock those up. All you need is a smaller safe for the magazines or gun parts. Most people need a small fire proof safe for their documents anyways. The thing is people aren't aware of what they can do and really just running some announcements would do some good and probably save some lives.

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    While we're talking guns, I'm thinking the US military, and hence NATO, should go to a 6.8mm round vice 5.56. Too many troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are saying the 5.56 doesn't have enough knock-down power and just "doesn't get the job done." Whaddya say?

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    I don't know if all the dad's in our neighborhood took the same gun safety classes. Like I said, we used to have gun and hunter safety taught in school and our local rifle range was owned and maintained by the US Forrest Service. That was back in the days where the US Federal Government wasn't so anti-gun. They provided shooting ranges and made surplus rifles available. I think the thinking was they wanted a population of trained marksmen available in case they were needed if there was a war. The thinking now is 180 degrees different. All our dads pretty much secured the weapons in the house the same way. You never touched the guns without permission either or got into the ammo or the wrath of God would fall on you and there would be hell to pay. It was was a biggie. Even bigger than getting caught with porn.

    Anyways, most people had bolt action rifles and shotguns. A few people had handguns. The modern military looking stuff really wasn't that popular then. It was mostly hunting rifles, shotguns, and target shooting rifles and pistols. Everyone stored the rifles with bolts out of them, the ammunition was locked up in a separate part of the house and handguns were usually locked up in a strong box. Some people had big gun cases or gun racks but there was no ammo in the guns, no magazines in them or the bolts were out of them. That was the standard way of keeping them in the house.

    The houses were usually unlocked. Nobody locked their doors and nobody I knew had a gun for defense. That was looked at as being paranoid but then hey, we lived in an area nobody felt they need to lock the front door.

    But there was consequences for your actions when you were a kid. Kids were scared of their parents and teachers. The principle might paddle you, you might have to stay after school and write a big essay on why you shouldn't have done what you did. I threw a kids baseball mitt in a mud puddle and stomped on it and totally ruined it. I was dragged to not only apologize to the kid but his parents and had to earn the $40 to buy him a new one. It was $40 I had to work for and $40 I could have enjoyed. I cringe to think of what would happen if you spray painted public buildings and got caught. They would have cained your ass and I'm not kidding. Fear of being caught was a huge deterrent and the adults commanded respect and weren't the silly immature parents we have now. The adults were not your buddy, they loved you but if you fucked with them they would clean your clock and make your life hell.

    The result was you could leave the front door unlocked with a bunch of guns in the house. LOL!

    I think a lot of it was the dads at the time grew up through the great depression some served in World War II or Korea. They had to grow up sooner than the baby boomers did. The spoiled and fluffy hippie dip mentality was not there and there was little patience for spoiled misbehaving immature and unresponsible brats. They let you know it too.

    What we are seeing now is the fruit of the baby boom meathead generation. what a fucking mess.
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 12-15-2012 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Assault rifles have the option to go full auto so technically an AR-15 isn't an assault rifle nor is a semiautomatic only Kalashinikov an assault rifle. They are semi-automatic carbines and rifles that can take a large magazine. Now you have semi-automatic rifles that look like regular hunting rifles but they won't take a big 30 round or larger magazines. The AR and AK styled weapons shoot small calibers. .223, 762x39, 5,45x39. The reason is such weapons are designed to be effective out to 300 meters and not long ranges and the smaller rounds allow you to carry more rounds.
    No, they're not "carbines." Carbines fire pistol, or pistol style ammunition or are shortened rifles. The AK's 7.62x39mm is not a "small caliber," it's a full caliber shortened round and the 5.56mmx45 is a high velocity small caliber bullet. The reason they have shorter ranges than old bolt action rifles is that anything more than 300 meters is completely useless in 90% of combat situations. The M-16 style rifles are effective out to upwards of 600m actually though.

    FYI - it's true you can carry more ammo, but the rifles themselves were lighter and more compact allowing for quicker reaction during ambushes or when a patrol stumbled into an enemy patrol. They are also vastly more controllable when fired on full auto, or when fired rapidly on semi-auto in prolonged combat...

    Not the best weapons to go deer hunting and in most states using such small rounds for deer hunting is illegal. You need to have more velocity and a heavier bullet than the 7,62x39 soviet. I would say the smallest you want to go is a 30-30 winchester at short ranges and then use something in the 30-06 range for longer distances. Those are proper deer hunting calibers.

    The real issue is magazine capacity and then of course if you can change out the magazine with the push of a button you have a quick reload. People get too fixated on what the gun looks like. The last assult rifle ban did nothing about magazine capacity. It focused on what the gun looked like and forbid having a pistol grip, a flash hider, and a bayonett lug. As long as the gun looked more like a hunting rifle you could slap a 80 round wind up drum on it.
    No, there was a ban on weapons that could take a magazine of more than 10 rounds for a while. It was allowed to expire under Bush IIRC. And WTF do you mean "look like" as ammunition capacities and quick reloading capability are what make military style assault rifles effective at killing lots of people at combat ranges. I was trained in the Army NOT to use full auto and to use semi in almost all combat situations. Many states have limitations on the ammunition capacities allowed while hunting anyways and your points are mostly the typical bullshit aphorisms stated by people who have the mindless NRA-zombie cum all over their face. The M-14 and Mini-14/AC556 both look more like traditional rifles but still feature high capacity magazines of 20 or 30 rounds. The .308 M-14 was (mostly) issued as a semi-automatic rifle to US troops during the 60's and actually still is to an extent as a 'designated marksman weapon' to BBB's previous point about the 6.8mm crap or whatever...

    ...
    I just see a realistic solution is limiting the magazine capacity...
    That was already tried once, see above. I don't have the exact details, but for a while all rifles had limitations an magazine capacities. But unfortunately this cunt's didn't, as he was able to shoot lots of children without reloading sadly...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 12-15-2012 at 10:28 PM.

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    Yeah the gun control in Mexico is sure keeping the citizens there safe.

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    The Gun Control Thread

    I'm starting this thread so as to not muck up the Newtown Shooting thread. If the mods want to merge this thread with that one, then so be it.

    Put your gun control ideas, comments, and comments about the Second Amendment to the US Constitution (what it does or does not say) here.

    What should it take to purchase a gun? What classes, background checks, etc. should be involved? What restrictions should there be? Should certain, or even all, firearms be banned? Should there be a restriction on the number of firearms a person can own?

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