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Thread: 'Van Halen Rising' Book Chat with Greg Renoff - Oct. 17th, 9pm ET

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLR Bridge View Post
    I'd been kicking around screenplay ideas for fun for the past 10 years or so, working solely with the most known facts of the early days. Thought their story on up through December of '77 would make a great Independent film. Now, thanks to VHR, I think a Netflix series may be in order. At least one season. Easily.
    I have as yet to see a single 'docudrama' movie based on any rock star that was even remotely as compelling as just watching footage or listening to the music of the actual star.

    That Def Leppard VH1 docudrama that came out in the 1990s was laughable. The flick concerned itself roughly with the years 1978 to 1988.

    The Buddy Holly Story with Gary Busey was one of the better ones.

    I'd just as soon see footage of the 1978 stadium shows Van Halen was opening up for/at the bottom of the bill of than watch a bunch of actors pretend to be Van Halen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    This was put out by the pride of Bill Grahem before he died tragically. It's a path that could have been taken, rather than grunge.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9-iFXmzl1M

    But back to the subject at hand. Van Halen Rising is an amazingly detailed accounting of one of my previous ('78 to '83) preoccupations. It is also one of the fastest books I've ever read. Thank you Mr. Renoff.

    P.S. How many of you are kicking yourself for not thinking of documenting, err - I mean writing, something like VHR yourselves? I'll bet most of us here have the passion to do it.
    VHR fills a huge void.
    Not so much kicking myself, because it is clear the author had access to a fair amount of key people around back then along with documents and such that I never would have and he also (I imagine) had the time and ability to do the research needed to fill in the meat on the skeleton of what had previously been known about Van Halen's early years.

    He did a really good job balancing the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of the financing, equipment and a lot of technical details all the while driving the narrative forward in a compelling way.

    Even though the history of the band from 1978 to 1985 is probably better-known, I'd love to see him take a stab at writing THAT book, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    A few months of Fuhrer Trump and he'll need a wall to keep you in...

    Build a wall to keep me IN?!

    Fuck that! Once The Donald takes over, we'll all have HUGE opportunities to clean toilets at one of his casinos or resorts for substandard wages, right alongside "the blacks" he currently employs there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Not so much kicking myself, because it is clear the author had access to a fair amount of key people around back then along with documents and such that I never would have and he also (I imagine) had the time and ability to do the research needed to fill in the meat on the skeleton of what had previously been known about Van Halen's early years.

    He did a really good job balancing the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of the financing, equipment and a lot of technical details all the while driving the narrative forward in a compelling way.

    Even though the history of the band from 1978 to 1985 is probably better-known, I'd love to see him take a stab at writing THAT book, as well.
    he's probly gonna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I have as yet to see a single 'docudrama' movie based on any rock star that was even remotely as compelling as just watching footage or listening to the music of the actual star.

    That Def Leppard VH1 docudrama that came out in the 1990s was laughable. The flick concerned itself roughly with the years 1978 to 1988.

    The Buddy Holly Story with Gary Busey was one of the better ones.

    I'd just as soon see footage of the 1978 stadium shows Van Halen was opening up for/at the bottom of the bill of than watch a bunch of actors pretend to be Van Halen.
    Agreed on The Buddy Holly Story. Alone, the roller rink scene was worth the price of admission. Although the historical accuracy of the movie's story line has been called into question by those who were in a position to know, Busey put his back into it playing the part. He refused to lip synch the tunes and did them live. This aspect, imho, makes the movie.

    For any VH docu-drama casting it seems clear that Ralph Saenz and Russ Parrish would make the short list. This would be something I would stand in line for. I wish the same could be said for the actual band. I'm still trying to forgive them for booting Mike and then calling it a reunion. Maybe Ed should jam with his kid on his _own_ time, call back MA, and quit fucking around. grumble grumble
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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    Agreed on The Buddy Holly Story. Alone, the roller rink scene was worth the price of admission. Although the historical accuracy of the movie's story line has been called into question by those who were in a position to know, Busey put his back into it playing the part. He refused to lip synch the tunes and did them live. This aspect, imho, makes the movie
    I mean, I get that it's difficult to condense elements of a person's life into 90 minutes, but virtually all of those movies take too much in the way of artistic license which ends up fabricating things that never happened in order to supposedly make the film more interesting. Oliver Stone's The Doors is one of the most egregious examples, where in scene after scene it's like "this never happened", "this never happened", "this never happened", "this has some elements of truth but used composite characters who never existed", etc. etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post

    For any VH docu-drama casting it seems clear that Ralph Saenz and Russ Parrish would make the short list. This would be something I would stand in line for. I wish the same could be said for the actual band. I'm still trying to forgive them for booting Mike and then calling it a reunion. Maybe Ed should jam with his kid on his _own_ time, call back MA, and quit fucking around. grumble grumble

    Well, as near as I can piece together (and none of this is exactly anything unique in terms of original thinking), the Van Halens and Ed in particular once the band became successful started looking at Mike Anthony as someone who wasn't pulling his fair share of the load in terms of getting an equal split with the rest of them. Certainly not on a creative front in terms of songwriting in Ed's mind, whereas Ed would always concede (even after the 1985 split when there was plenty of bad blood) that Roth contributed a great deal to the creative process.

    People make the same case about Alex Van Halen or tend to lump him in the same boat as Anthony (hey, what the fuck, Alex was just the drummer), but Alex and Ed cut their teeth/developed their chops together and I can't imagine Ed playing with another drummer BESIDES Alex in terms of them feeding off of one another/each knowing where the other was going when playing. Yeah, it would obviously be physically possible for Ed to play with another drummer, but that level of musical intimacy is something developed over a lifetime. Plus, Alex is blood: who else besides a family member would tolerate Ed's eccentricities? Anthony hung in there much longer than I would have. Especially after his financial percentage was whittled down from the early 1990s through to 2004.

    And I think of where Ed was by the time 2006 rolled around, divorced, in the throes of various addictions, no record label, no singer, no prospects beyond wanking around in his home studio and rattling around in his dilapidated mansion. Considering all that, I don't think anyone else BUT Wolfgang could have served as a motivation for Ed to stop dicking around and actually get up and DO something. No bass player outside of Ed's kid could have been that motivating force. And the kid was smart enough to realize that getting Roth back in the band was the only viable move left to make and was the only person on the planet who could tell Ed this in a way that Ed would actually listen to it. Yeah, the only reason Wolfgang ended up in the band was nepotism, but that same nepotism served a positive aspect in revitalizing Ed.

    To be sure, the reunion hasn't resulted in a bounty of new ideas on a musical front. It's been a fairly standard reunion, and in what has sadly become a reality for Van Halen post-1996 there are obstacles that have proven insurmountable (and will probably remain so) in restoring the band to what it once was all those years ago. And even if Anthony rejoins the band, it's never going to be what it once was. The best that could be hoped for was a touring unit that on their best nights could perhaps provide fleeting reminders through their set of the brilliance they used to be able to summon at will and sustain for an entire tour with seemingly little effort. That's the feeling I got when I saw them in 2008 and 2012 at certain points during the shows: every so often the pieces of the CVH band that remained, weathered by age and former abuses, would click in at operate at 100% of their capacities and capabilities today and it would give me a nostalgic sensation of re-experiencing a memory of that utter greatness the band had that turned me on way back when.

    Saenz could serve up Roth's vocals with Van Halen now better than Roth could ever hope to these days. That's just a factual statement. However, seeing that isn't really something I'd necessarily want to pay money to see. For whatever gripes I have about Roth these days, to boot him out and get a tribute band ringer in there would slot Van Halen into even more of a freak-show element than it was seeing Wolfgang there on the first Roth reunion tour, when the kid looked awkward onstage and just out of place. THAT situation resolved itself somewhat in 2012, when seeing Wolfgang up there onstage felt natural. Not to the point where I wouldn't have preferred Anthony to be up there, but as natural as it would get WITHOUT Anthony there.

    Were the band to ditch Roth for Saenz, the net result for me would be the same as if they ditched Roth and got Hagar back in: my interest (what remains of it, which even with Roth there now is very little; short of a miraculous new studio album full of interesting NEW ideas I think the band has gone as far as it can with Dave re: doing anything of interest to me) would be nada. Zip. Ziltch.

    Van Halen for me are just basically done, you know? At least in the sense of waiting with anticipation for what will happen next. Even the prospect of a new studio album is something that I'm taking a wait-and-see/"okay, let's see what you got/impress me" attitude toward, rather than "man! I can't WAIT for the new Van Halen album".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Well, as near as I can piece together (and none of this is exactly anything unique in terms of original thinking), the Van Halens and Ed in particular once the band became successful started looking at Mike Anthony as someone who wasn't pulling his fair share of the load in terms of getting an equal split with the rest of them. Certainly not on a creative front in terms of songwriting in Ed's mind, whereas Ed would always concede (even after the 1985 split when there was plenty of bad blood) that Roth contributed a great deal to the creative process.

    People make the same case about Alex Van Halen or tend to lump him in the same boat as Anthony (hey, what the fuck, Alex was just the drummer), but Alex and Ed cut their teeth/developed their chops together and I can't imagine Ed playing with another drummer BESIDES Alex in terms of them feeding off of one another/each knowing where the other was going when playing. Yeah, it would obviously be physically possible for Ed to play with another drummer, but that level of musical intimacy is something developed over a lifetime. Plus, Alex is blood: who else besides a family member would tolerate Ed's eccentricities? Anthony hung in there much longer than I would have. Especially after his financial percentage was whittled down from the early 1990s through to 2004.

    And I think of where Ed was by the time 2006 rolled around, divorced, in the throes of various addictions, no record label, no singer, no prospects beyond wanking around in his home studio and rattling around in his dilapidated mansion. Considering all that, I don't think anyone else BUT Wolfgang could have served as a motivation for Ed to stop dicking around and actually get up and DO something. No bass player outside of Ed's kid could have been that motivating force. And the kid was smart enough to realize that getting Roth back in the band was the only viable move left to make and was the only person on the planet who could tell Ed this in a way that Ed would actually listen to it. Yeah, the only reason Wolfgang ended up in the band was nepotism, but that same nepotism served a positive aspect in revitalizing Ed.

    To be sure, the reunion hasn't resulted in a bounty of new ideas on a musical front. It's been a fairly standard reunion, and in what has sadly become a reality for Van Halen post-1996 there are obstacles that have proven insurmountable (and will probably remain so) in restoring the band to what it once was all those years ago. And even if Anthony rejoins the band, it's never going to be what it once was. The best that could be hoped for was a touring unit that on their best nights could perhaps provide fleeting reminders through their set of the brilliance they used to be able to summon at will and sustain for an entire tour with seemingly little effort. That's the feeling I got when I saw them in 2008 and 2012 at certain points during the shows: every so often the pieces of the CVH band that remained, weathered by age and former abuses, would click in at operate at 100% of their capacities and capabilities today and it would give me a nostalgic sensation of re-experiencing a memory of that utter greatness the band had that turned me on way back when.

    Saenz could serve up Roth's vocals with Van Halen now better than Roth could ever hope to these days. That's just a factual statement. However, seeing that isn't really something I'd necessarily want to pay money to see. For whatever gripes I have about Roth these days, to boot him out and get a tribute band ringer in there would slot Van Halen into even more of a freak-show element than it was seeing Wolfgang there on the first Roth reunion tour, when the kid looked awkward onstage and just out of place. THAT situation resolved itself somewhat in 2012, when seeing Wolfgang up there onstage felt natural. Not to the point where I wouldn't have preferred Anthony to be up there, but as natural as it would get WITHOUT Anthony there.

    Were the band to ditch Roth for Saenz, the net result for me would be the same as if they ditched Roth and got Hagar back in: my interest (what remains of it, which even with Roth there now is very little; short of a miraculous new studio album full of interesting NEW ideas I think the band has gone as far as it can with Dave re: doing anything of interest to me) would be nada. Zip. Ziltch.

    Van Halen for me are just basically done, you know? At least in the sense of waiting with anticipation for what will happen next. Even the prospect of a new studio album is something that I'm taking a wait-and-see/"okay, let's see what you got/impress me" attitude toward, rather than "man! I can't WAIT for the new Van Halen album".

    Pardon the delay here, Terry. I agree with what you are saying for the most part. However you misunderstood my enthusiasm for Saenz. I was suggesting that Ralph would be a natural for the role of Roth in a movie - not as a stand-in replacement for DLR in VH. That would be similar imo to AC/DC having replaced Scott with the singer who did "Dirty Deeds Done With Sheep". According to one of the Young brothers (I forget which) there were many dead ringers, if you'll pardon the expression that showed up for an audition after Bon had met his maker.

    The way I see it, mega-bands that have run out of steam (such as AC/DC, and yes, VH) need to put their pride aside and get a producer involved that will whip them into shape. Someone they can bounce ideas off of who they can't ignore... and who won't let them lie to themselves.
    If Tom Werman can polish terds like Motley Crue, he can do the same for tarnished gems such as our home boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    Pardon the delay here, Terry. I agree with what you are saying for the most part. However you misunderstood my enthusiasm for Saenz. I was suggesting that Ralph would be a natural for the role of Roth in a movie
    This would be a movie about the VH reunion then?

    Have you forgotten that Ralph is 50 years old, isn't an actor and that you don't need to sing live in a movie!!??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    This would be a movie about the VH reunion then?

    Have you forgotten that Ralph is 50 years old, isn't an actor and that you don't need to sing live in a movie!!??
    Maybe it's going to be a play.
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    Val Kilmer was about 30 in the Doors movie but a 50 year old playing 21 is pushing it even for Hollywood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    Maybe it's going to be a play.
    a poptart musical

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    This would be a movie about the VH reunion then?

    Have you forgotten that Ralph is 50 years old, isn't an actor and that you don't need to sing live in a movie!!??

    Ralph could pass for someone in their 30s. Aside from being a few pounds overweight, Saenz IS Roth in his prime... with the mannerisms, the swagger and the voice. You don't think the guy can act?? Hell, acting is what he DOES. And maybe you don't NEED to be able to sing if it's in a movie, but the evil of dubbing-in wouldn't be necessary if Ralph played Roth. Wouldn't people who KNOW their VH be more inclined to sit down and watch an actual performance?

    Now, who does it better than this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JIJTJOCzFM

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    Ralph could pass for someone in their 30s.
    An EEAS band movie?

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    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
    Yeah, they're gonna make a movie about...what? They gonna show Dave holed up in his hotel room moping by himself? Ed sitting in his hotel room snorting coke and drankin cheap beer and strummin his electric twanger geetar? Trust me - nobody wants to see the real Van Halen behind the scenes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
    Oh Boy,US FESTIVAL ON DVD,LARGO ON DVD AND ALSO SOUTH AMERICA ON DVD JUST ASK AROUND.pSSSSS ASK CATO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Oh Boy,US FESTIVAL ON DVD,LARGO ON DVD AND ALSO SOUTH AMERICA ON DVD JUST ASK AROUND.pSSSSS ASK CATO.

    You think I haven't had all those forever and a day? I want first gen, converted to Blu-Ray version. You know, kinda like every other fucking band in the world has given their fans?

    But hey, I understand you'd rather have yet another cheesy, Hollywood over dramatized, mostly fictional MOVIE about a band. With bad actors playing the parts of the Members of VH.

    It's not like we don't already have enough of those, about other bands. After all, Hollywood has a great history of getting this stuff right.

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    I gotta agree with von as much as it hurts , look on line every other also ran half arsed band has multiple live videos but these jackasses don't want our money.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    Yeah, they're gonna make a movie about...what? They gonna show Dave holed up in his hotel room moping by himself? Ed sitting in his hotel room snorting coke and drankin cheap beer and strummin his electric twanger geetar? Trust me - nobody wants to see the real Van Halen behind the scenes.
    The only biopics that work as movies are mainly fictional.

    You take a few facts and the names and then make up the rest - like Braveheart.
    Last edited by Seshmeister; 02-05-2016 at 10:48 AM.

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    You want Mel Gibson playing van halen ..... I see what you mean , Namm taped up sand shoes drunk as a twat.
    Inspired casting.

    Oooooh instead of blue stripes he could have red and white ed stripes ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandeleur View Post
    I gotta agree with von as much as it hurts , look on line every other also ran half arsed band has multiple live videos but these jackasses don't want our money.......
    Van,You Are Skating On Sheep Pen Ice This Year,Never Agree With Von On Anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Van,You Are Skating On Sheep Pen Ice This Year,Never Agree With Von On Anything.
    I gotta say it doesn't happen often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
    Yeah, really.

    I mean, truth be told material like you mentioned above (the infamous 'vault' material) is all I've really wanted out of the band for almost 20 years now after the dust from the 1996 debacle cleared. By the time Roth finally rejoined the band in 2006, the circumstances of THAT reunion were such that I wasn't nearly as enthused as I had been ten years prior: yay, we've waited so long for Roth to reunite with Van Halen and now...Anthony's gone...and Ed is 'having problems with his hands'/drinking too much and can't play as well as he used to...and Roth can't jump...or scream...or even sing.

    Terrific.

    I mean, I've got all that stuff Von mentioned, but some of it is of rough quality. Now, Cato works some real video magic with those old boots...why can't Van Halen just hire Cato to restore all that stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
    I don't think it's a Hollywood movie they want, Von.

    My guess is that most people here want something like this



    but with Van Halen instead of the Spice Girls. Full band orgy on the final scene included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    Fuck a stupid fucking bullshit movie.

    How about fucking releasing the US Festival? Or Oakland? Or Largo? Or South America? Or whatever the fuck else they've got?

    A fucking Hollywood movie. You dumb motherfuckers never cease to amaze me.
    Given a choice between a movie or official release of old shows, it's a no brainer to go with the latter. But since we're not only not getting a choice; we're just getting nothing, I maintain a greedy desire of both.

    I know you're not much for film, Von. I can appreciate that, but I do think the stories in VHR would make a great movie in the vain of Almost Famous by Cameron Crowe, in fact, he'd be a good director for such a project. A movie may actually not be enough time to properly do some of the tales justice. A Netflix season or two would be good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    Yeah, they're gonna make a movie about...what? They gonna show Dave holed up in his hotel room moping by himself? Ed sitting in his hotel room snorting coke and drankin cheap beer and strummin his electric twanger geetar? Trust me - nobody wants to see the real Van Halen behind the scenes.
    Of course they don't... but as you may recall there was a moment or two when VH had the world at their feet.

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    dammit
    Last edited by PETE'S BROTHER; 02-09-2016 at 05:33 PM. Reason: boobs

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    I'm still having a hard time with what I'm reading on pg.310 (2nd to last paragraph).

    btw, I do not believe that the Chris Holmes/swimming pool scene in TDOWC ptII is based in reality...

    but then again, maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    I'm still having a hard time with what I'm reading on pg.310 (2nd to last paragraph).

    btw, I do not believe that the Chris Holmes/swimming pool scene in TDOWC ptII is based in reality...

    but then again, maybe I just haven't been paying attention.
    Yeah, that swimming pool scene always seemed somewhat staged to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    Of course they don't... but as you may recall there was a moment or two when VH had the world at their feet.
    The nation maybe but not the world. That went out the window when Dave quit the band in 85. Then again it was dangling at the edge a few albums before the end.
    Last edited by cadaverdog; 02-15-2016 at 08:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadaverdog View Post
    The nation maybe but not the world. That went out the window when Dave quit the band in 85. Then again it was dangling at the edge a few albums before the end.
    Yeah, Van Halen never really broke quite as big in Europe as they did in the US, outside of the Jump single. The CVH lineup did a few tours over there, and I think Roth was one of the acts at Donnington in the late 1980s, but by the time Van Halen got back over there on the Balance tour they were opening up for Bon Jovi.

    I don't know if it is a matter of complicated logistics or a lack of certainty as to how ticket sales would be, but for whatever reasons Van Halen doesn't bother with Europe, and I doubt that will change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Yeah, Van Halen never really broke quite as big in Europe as they did in the US, outside of the Jump single. The CVH lineup did a few tours over there, and I think Roth was one of the acts at Donnington in the late 1980s, but by the time Van Halen got back over there on the Balance tour they were opening up for Bon Jovi.

    I don't know if it is a matter of complicated logistics or a lack of certainty as to how ticket sales would be, but for whatever reasons Van Halen doesn't bother with Europe, and I doubt that will change.
    Most people I know are more familiar with Van Hagar & I don't think anyone outside the die-hard Eddie Van Halen fan - notice I mean the man, not band - knows what a David Lee Roth is.

    You're much more likely to find someone who knows Sammy Hagar.

    Dave knew enough to put flyers in wind-shields, back when they were playing high-schools & backyards. The man has the business & marketing sense of a 15 year old. And not a particularly bright 15 year old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Izzy Moreno View Post
    Most people I know are more familiar with Van Hagar & I don't think anyone outside the die-hard Eddie Van Halen fan - notice I mean the man, not band - knows what a David Lee Roth is.

    You're much more likely to find someone who knows Sammy Hagar.

    Dave knew enough to put flyers in wind-shields, back when they were playing high-schools & backyards. The man has the business & marketing sense of a 15 year old. And not a particularly bright 15 year old.

    You bucking for a dis-honorable discharge Izzy? Isn't this the "Roth Army"? Sheesh, I'm all mixed up, bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    You bucking for a dis-honorable discharge Izzy? Isn't this the "Roth Army"? Sheesh, I'm all mixed up, bro.
    he's become enlightened..

    hates dave on a dave site, don't look up the definition of trolling

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    Quote Originally Posted by beavrtek View Post
    You bucking for a dis-honorable discharge Izzy? Isn't this the "Roth Army"? Sheesh, I'm all mixed up, bro.
    Of all the posts, you had to pick on this one.

    No, this is only my anecdotal evidence of people's perception on Van Halen & everyone involved with it.

    I will say that I know a guy that booked a flight to New York on purpose to see the reunion in 2007-8, but that's one against many.

    I understand that the reality may be different in other countries, particularly the United Kingdom.

    Funnily, I just heard a bit of Counter-blast on the radio, they DJs were talking about songs that had lyrics about space, or something? Counter-blast was highly unexpected, but it was cut off less than a minute in with the guy saying it was enough.

    As for Dave's marketing skills, I'm pretty sure you've been following him since 1985?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PETE'S BROTHER View Post
    he's become enlightened..

    hates dave on a dave site, don't look up the definition of trolling
    Well, there's only so much I can stand.

    I don't want to hate Dave. Dave made me hate him.

    Stop wanking, that's bad for your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Izzy Moreno View Post
    Well, there's only so much I can stand.

    I don't want to hate Dave. Dave made me hate him.

    Stop wanking, that's bad for your health.
    no it isn't

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    Quote Originally Posted by PETE'S BROTHER View Post
    no it isn't
    It is if you overdo it.

    Trust me on this.

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