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Thread: 5 Reasons Why Jesus Probably Never Existed

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    5 Reasons Why Jesus Probably Never Existed

    Monday, Sep 1, 2014 11:58 AM EST
    5 reasons to suspect that Jesus never existed
    A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity

    Valerie Tarico, Alternet


    AlterNet Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

    At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

    For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman.

    But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

    The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All.For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

    Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.

    More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

    The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

    1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

    2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

    Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel — the good news — of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus’ historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

    3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

    4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

    The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

    5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer listassembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

    For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

    Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

    In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgeraldargues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.

    We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.

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    Well, here's the time travel angle......

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    Not to upset the socialists but………..

    Plato wrote his opinions somewhere around 427-347 BC.

    But….. the earliest copy of Plato’s writings was written in about 900 AD.

    I’m not so sure Plato exised.

    But……..



    Dana Plato did!
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    You're missing the point there.

    It doesn't really matter if Plato existed or not, all that matters are that his ideas do.

    Just having the ideas of Christ wouldn't be enough for most Christians if they were(and they almost certainly are) merely a philosophy rather than also being a literal story.
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    Guess Nick won't be needing one of these...

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    Or a brain...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    Guess Nick won't be needing one of these...

    What? I wear my God's Buddy cap, with my assless chaps, when I post here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Just having the ideas of Christ wouldn't be enough for most Christians if they were(and they almost certainly are) merely a philosophy rather than also being a literal story.
    I think more people who consider themselves Christians try to abide by the basic ideas of Christ because they think it's morally correct than believe the entire story is literal but to be a true Christian I think you have to believe Jesus Christ was a real person.
    Last edited by cadaverdog; 09-01-2014 at 07:22 PM. Reason: I didn't edit shit. I just thought about it.
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    " Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father."

    --John 14.12

    Come on Christians, let's see a few miracles – walking on water, perhaps, or raising the dead?!

    - See more at: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/#sthash.9Ynz21ZL.dpuf
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    Sesh - you are going straight to Hell!

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    Jesus was nothing more than a disgruntled proletariat who lacked a printing press and/or social media to write a self-help book. In other words, he was the Dr. Phil of his day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    Sesh - you are going straight to Hell!
    Hey it doesn't even say 'instead of fucking my 12 year old wife...'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    Jesus was nothing more than a disgruntled proletariat who lacked a printing press and/or social media to write a self-help book. In other words, he was the Dr. Phil of his day.
    If he had existed he was a fucking crazy communist.

    He's waaaay too left wing for me.

    I don't mind paying my taxes and throwing some cash to charities from time to time but no way am I selling most of my stuff on Ebay and giving the money to the poor, sorry I'm far too right wing and selfish to be a Christian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    Jesus was nothing more than a disgruntled proletariat who lacked a printing press and/or social media to write a self-help book. In other words, he was the Dr. Phil of his day.
    you really think hey zeus lived?
    Wow....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazzlindino View Post
    you really think hey zeus lived?
    Wow....
    Obviously not. I don't agree with her Dr Phil analysis either. He was more like Charles Manson without the sex, drugs and rock and roll. And the viscous murder stuff. He scared the man so they took him down.

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    Possibly worth it's own thread, but have a look. Pretty interesting.

    http://deadstate.org/frank-sinatras-...d-of-his-time/
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLR Bridge View Post
    Possibly worth it's own thread, but have a look. Pretty interesting.
    Interesting yes but I doubt Old blue eyes was such an open minded guy about racial equality around his mob buddies. Some might take offense to his remarks about organized religion too.

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    Some of y'all spendeth way too much time trying to deny My existence. If ye only spent as much time following My teachings, that world ye live on might be a better place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    Jesus was nothing more than a disgruntled proletariat who lacked a printing press and/or social media to write a self-help book. In other words, he was the Dr. Phil of his day.
    Dr. Phil could raise the dead? Turn water into wine? Walk on water? Calm storms? Make the blind see? Frankly I think Jesus got more ass than a toilet seat. Fucked one of the rabbi's wives and got nailed for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksmar View Post
    Not to upset the socialists but………..

    Plato wrote his opinions somewhere around 427-347 BC.

    But….. the earliest copy of Plato’s writings was written in about 900 AD.

    I’m not so sure Plato exised.

    But……..



    Dana Plato did!
    I missed that Different Strokes episode. Did she do two black dudes in the shower?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cadaverdog View Post
    Interesting yes but I doubt Old blue eyes was such an open minded guy about racial equality around his mob buddies. Some might take offense to his remarks about organized religion too.
    Over a hundred years ago few people believed in a literal interpretation of the bible, in the US in particular a lot of people seem to be going more silly with the religion thing as time goes on with the whole evangelist/give us your money nonsense.

    A big part of that is when politicians managed to amalgamate all the different branches of Christianity into one under the one umbrella even although a Roman Catholic has little in common with this weeks ELVIS cult or whatever.
    Last edited by Seshmeister; 09-02-2014 at 04:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus Christ View Post
    Some of y'all spendeth way too much time trying to deny My existence. If ye only spent as much time following My teachings, that world ye live on might be a better place.
    Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Over a hundred years ago few people believed in a literal interpretation of the bible...
    Shaddup you drunken retarded liar...

    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

    He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


    Enjoy your journey to hell...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Shaddup you drunken retarded liar...

    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

    He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


    Enjoy your journey to hell...
    Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
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    That passage (as all Scripture is) is based on Biblical truth and God's holiness...

    Both of which Seshticle and most people on these forums deny...

    Be not of this world...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    That passage (as all Scripture is) is based on Biblical truth and God's holiness...

    Both of which Seshticle and most people on these forums deny...

    Be not of this world...
    Meh...if we're wrong, Sesh, Jesus and I will be having a good laugh as we watch you burn in hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus Christ View Post
    Some of y'all spendeth way too much time trying to deny My existence. If ye only spent as much time following My teachings, that world ye live on might be a better place.
    Not like those who have followed "your teachings" constantly murder and deride their fellow human being in your name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksmar View Post
    Not to upset the socialists but………..

    Plato wrote his opinions somewhere around 427-347 BC.

    But….. the earliest copy of Plato’s writings was written in about 900 AD.

    I’m not so sure Plato exised.

    But……..


    Dana Plato did!

    What is also so sad about you is that you cannot even Google your way to having any form of intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Be not of this world...
    How about you be not of this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post

    I don't mind paying my taxes and throwing some cash to charities from time to time but no way am I selling most of my stuff on Ebay and giving the money to the poor, sorry I'm far too right wing and selfish to be a Christian.
    That is the definition of a Christian.

  39. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    Shaddup you drunken retarded liar...

    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

    He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


    Enjoy your journey to hell...
    Elvis is channeling Old Testament murderous, vengeful God there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Elvis is channeling Old Testament murderous, vengeful God there...
    He's still the same vengeful God...

    The wages of sin are still death...

    That's why we all need the atoning blood of Jesus...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    He's still the same vengeful God...

    The wages of sin are still death...

    That's why we all need the atoning blood of Jesus...
    The wages of sin are death , but the hours are good
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Reason #6 : ELVIS believes it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus Christ View Post
    Some of y'all spendeth way too much time trying to deny My existence. If ye only spent as much time following My teachings, that world ye live on might be a better place.

  46. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    He's still the same vengeful God...

    The wages of sin are still death...

    That's why we all need the atoning blood of Jesus...





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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy View Post
    How about you be not of this forum?
    forty-eight?
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazzlindino View Post
    " Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father."

    --John 14.12

    Come on Christians, let's see a few miracles – walking on water, perhaps, or raising the dead?!

    - See more at: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/#sthash.9Ynz21ZL.dpuf
    How about a new VH album with Michael on bass!
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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