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Thread: UPROXX: 1996 VMA's - A Look Back at What Could Have Been

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    UPROXX: 1996 VMA's - A Look Back at What Could Have Been

    Pretty good synopsis, not to mention they link to my video after the '96 VMA's.....

    http://uproxx.com/music/van-halen-feud/2/

    How The ’96 VMAs Cost Van Halen Their Chance At Being More Than ’80s Greats
    BY: CHRISTIAN LONG 08.26.16
    Van-Halen-Uproxx
    MTV

    In 1985, when lead singer David Lee Roth quit Van Halen, they were one of the biggest bands in rock and roll. Of their six records, two were certified Diamond, and four certified Platinum, they’d toured the world more than a half dozen times and their songs dominated the charts. Despite their future briefly looking uncertain, the band hired vocalist Sammy Hagar to replace Roth, and Van Halen managed to reinvent themselves, ushering in a new era for the band that would last another 11 years. That is, until Hagar left Van Halen in the summer of 1996 over the direction the band was headed, thanks in part to new management, once again throwing their existence into turmoil.

    On Sept. 5, 1996, however, the band shocked the world when they appeared on stage with their original frontman at the MTV VMAs. The excitement in the room was overwhelming, and along with thunderous applause, they also got a standing ovation from the crowd. Immediately, everyone anticipated this was the beginning of a full-fledged reunion, though it turned out that their appearance that night would open old wounds and bring back a lot of animosity between the former bandmates that couldn’t be overcome. The fallout from the event was considerable; so much so that Rolling Stone called it both one of the most outrageous moments in VMA history, and a defining moment in one of the all-time great rock and roll feuds.

    So, what exactly happened that night that turned a one-off appearance into a months-long PR nightmare for the band? Let’s take a look at the moment in question.

    CHAPTER 1
    Dave Being Dave And The VMA Blowback

    From the second he set foot on the stage, Roth was beaming with delight. “This is the first time we’ve stood on stage together in over a decade,” he said, grinning from ear to ear. At first, it really did seem like a joyous and pitch-perfect moment — so long as you ignored the surrounding awkwardness. While Diamond Dave waxed philosophical about how much MTV had changed since they were last seen in public together, things seemed to grow increasingly tense the more he hammed it up for the crowd, mugging in the background while Beck gave his acceptance speech for Best Male Video of the year. The longer they were up there, the more distance Eddie Van Halen put between himself and Roth.

    Talking to the MTV’s Kurt Loder afterwards, questions about when this apparently reunited Van Halen would be hitting the road were inevitable — and abundant. Eddie Van Halen did his best to try to quiet the excitement, repeatedly bringing up his upcoming hip-replacement surgery, and even mentioning that the band was still auditioning other singers at a press meeting — to which Roth quipped that they wouldn’t “find anyone better than me.”

    Later, brothers Eddie and Alex Van Halen would elaborate to MTV News in a joint interview that, after talking to the press that night, Roth had cornered him, declaring that “tonight’s about me, man, not your f*cking hip!” The two would almost come to blows, as Eddie Van Halen explained that as his fist was clenched, “all those years were right there.” Instead, he warned Roth that the next time he spoke to him like that, he “better be wearing a cup.”

    The two brothers went on to explain how their appearance together felt like an embarrassment to the band, reminding them why they’d kicked him out 11 years prior. They called Roth’s antics during Beck’s acceptance speech “disrespectful,” (even though it’s worth noting that Beck didn’t seem to mind) and reiterated that the plan had been to generate buzz for their upcoming greatest hits record, Best Of Volume 1, which had two new songs that Roth had recorded vocals for. Any further involvement with Roth would be developed with a “baby steps” mentality, and his behavior on stage that night clearly stopped those baby steps right in their tracks — though that wasn’t immediately clear to Roth, it seems.

    About a month after the VMAs, Roth went on Howard Stern’s radio show to promote Best Of Volume 1 and painted his reconciliation with Van Halen as a warmhearted affair, even speculating on whether he’d be singing Sammy Hagar songs if they were to go on tour.

    The three other members of Van Halen had once again explained that they’d gone out of their way to try and temper Roth’s expectations from the beginning. Eddie Van Halen described their former singer’s mentality as “we didn’t even have a song yet and you’re pulling a hamstring getting ready for a tour,” and the whole problem came about because Roth “only hears what he wants to hear.”

    In an interview with Guitar World later that same year, Eddie Van Halen elaborated on the entire ordeal, starting with his reconciliation with Roth, and the two songs that they’d worked on together for the Best Of Volume I album. By his account, things were going well, until that fateful night they appeared together at the VMAs, which he described as “two minutes on stage and a half-assed standing ovation and he turned right back into the Dave I hated.”

    Roth responded to the entire ordeal by circulating an open letter to the press near the end of 1996.

    I told Edward [Van Halen] at the time that I didn’t think it was a good idea for the band to go to [the VMAs] half-cocked; and that I didn’t want to imply by our presence there that we were ‘back’ if it was just a quickie for old time’s sake. It sickens me that the ‘reunion’ as seen on MTV was nothing more than a publicity stunt. If I am guilty of anything, I’m guilty of denial. I was an unwitting participant in this deception.

    CHAPTER 2
    A Lost Era Of In-Fighting

    Of course, Van Halen would tour the world again, just not in a way that anyone expected. Before all this drama began to unfold, the band had indeed been auditioning new singers for their upcoming album Van Halen III, and had hired former Extreme frontman Gary Cherone before their appearance on the VMAs that year — which does explain some of that on-stage tension.

    All the bad press and public feuding aside, their tour supporting Van Halen III was well-received the following year, but while the album was certified Gold, its success paled when compared to their records, a reminder of the band’s once-considerable popularity. Cherone amicably parted ways with the band after three years, citing the ubiquitous “creative differences.”

    In the years since, personality clashes and on-again, off-again relationships have taken center stage. Despite the second, very public, break-up with Roth, it was rumored that he had written some songs with Eddie and Alex Van Halen between 2000 and 2001, though there was never an official statement on the matter. Van Halen was also on hiatus at the time, with Eddie Van Halen dealing with both a divorce and cancer surgery. Hagar had his own reunion drama with Van Halen in 2004, teaming up for a tour to support another greatest hits album, though he’d later say, “What happened on that reunion tour in ’04 was some of the most miserable, back-stabbing dark crap I’ve ever been involved with my whole life.”

    Hagar also recounted the experience in his memoir, Red: My Uncensored Life In Rock, when he implied that Eddie Van Halen was lost in a deep state of addiction during the tour. Which Van Halen said was “embellished” and an instance of Hagar “painting a picture of something that never happened” in a Billboard magazine interview. Though, in the same breath, he also acknowledged being an “angry drunk” at the time.

    The 2004 tour also marked the end of original bass player Michael Anthony’s time with the band due to (what else?) in-fighting. In that same 2015 interview, Van Halen vented about Anthony, as well, dissing his abilities as a bass player. Anthony has continued working with Hagar (who came to his defense when Van Halen spoke out about Anthony) in the years following his break from Van Halen.

    CHAPTER 3
    What It Is And What Might Have Been

    Down to just Eddie and Alex Van Halen from the original band, Roth, at long last, officially re-joined Van Halen for a world tour in 2007, 11 years after their disastrous appearance on the VMAs, this time bringing Eddie’s then 16-year-old-son, Wolfgang, along for the ride as bass player. Roth and the band toured again in 2012 to support the release of their album, A Different Kind Of Truth (which consisted of a number of reworked demos from the ’70s and ’80s) and in 2015, with much success and little fanfare.

    While the relationship seems to still work when it comes to the business of touring, it’s hard to imagine Roth and Van Halen coming together to create all new music anytime soon, with Eddie Van Halen telling Billboard,“It’s hard, because there are four people in this band, and three of us like rock’n’roll. And one of us likes dance music […] And that used to kind of work, but now Dave doesn’t want to come to the table.”

    Whether that hurdle can ever be cleared is ultimately up to Roth and the current incarnation of Van Halen, two entities who so clearly need each other — a realization that they have been much slower to grasp than the general public has. While plenty of great bands are still capable of churning out reliable mid-level hits for their adoring fans in their silver era, Van Halen has spent the 20 years since the 1996 VMAs breaking up, reuniting, and living almost exclusively off of their past hits, and only seeming to make headlines when talking badly about one-another. Would that have been the case had the band and Roth been able to make things work back then? We’ll never know, but it’s a frustrating thing to ponder when you look back.
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    Twisting the knife again, but great read!
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    Considering Dave's attitude at the time an attempted CVH reunion in 96 might have ended without another album or tour. Even if Ed and Alex were considering a reunion with Dave after putting out a greatest hits record that night at the VMAs would have probably ended that attempt right then and there. Has anyone asked either party about what went on behind the scenes during the recording of those new songs Dave did for the greatest hits album? I wonder if it's possible Ed and Alex were considering a reunion with Dave and just said the plan was just to have him back long enough to record those songs as an after thought because they were so pissed off about what happened at the VMAs. They toured with Sammy to promote that greatest hits album. I know everyone involved says that last tour with Hagar was tension city but how did things go while Sam was recording those three new songs for the second VH greatest hits album? I guess I better research it myself if I want those answers.
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    One of the guys on FB posted this Japanese video interview with EVH and AVH after the '96 fiasco.... Interesting AVH says Dave's lyrics were "very intelligent" for the 2 new songs..... Also that they were making a video for MWM before the plug got pulled....

    Last edited by Seshmeister; 09-16-2016 at 06:30 AM. Reason: Fixed Link

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    I was watching all of the youtube post about this debacle in '96 and all seems well at the vma to me it was all a stunt... I can't figure out what the fuck happened at that time, nothing makes sense, unless it was all bullshit from the VH brothers. This band fucking pisses me off!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    One of the guys on FB posted this Japanese video interview with EVH and AVH after the '96 fiasco.... Interesting AVH says Dave's lyrics were "very intelligent" for the 2 new songs..... Also that they were making a video for MWM before the plug got pulled....
    I'll see your interview and raise you the greatest interview ever...

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    Skeletor Ed
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    Van Halen blew it in 1996.

    My sense of what happened is that Ed probably did want to reunite with Dave when they started recording the two BOV1 tracks beyond just a quickie for the greatest hits album. Or that the idea of Dave rejoining the band for a full-length album and a tour wasn't something that was 100% out of the question in Ed's mind when Dave first walked into the 5150 studio in 1996. I think what became apparent to Ed fairly quickly was that Dave wasn't going to be anybody different than he was back when he was in Van Halen. And for whatever misgivings they had with Hagar by the time 1996 rolled around, Hagar for most of his time in the group was a pretty easy fit personality-wise. Plus, Hagar wasn't a dominant or controlling person in the manner that Dave was. After 11 years of working with the personality type of Hagar, Ed just didn't want to go back to dealing with working with Dave, where Dave would be expecting to have his ideas about musical content and the group image taken seriously and on equal footing with those of Eddie, Alex and their management.

    Clearly, the Van Halens and their management well before the VMAs had decided to, at the very least, leave their options open. Why else would they have been auditioning Malloy, Cherone and god knows who else during the time frame between the recording of the two BOV1 tracks and the VMAs? And I really don't think either of the Van Halens had any idea by the time 1996 rolled around there would still be a massive amount of fan sentiment favoring Roth rejoining the group. Shit, by the time 1996 rolled around, Roth's solo career had basically tanked. Doubtless the Van Halens felt that if they were able to survive Roth leaving the band in 1985, when Roth was at his career zenith in terms of popularity and cultural relevance, they'd be able to do so with far greater ease in 1996. It wasn't an illogical assumption to make on their part. IF they came up with someone truly unique for a third lead singer.

    I just remember laughing when the dust finally settled and we found out the new lead singer - the guy Van Halen passed over Roth and a CVH reunion tour for - was Gary Cherone. I mean, whatever one wanted to make of Hagar's career before he joined Van Halen, at least Hagar had HAD a successful career in commercial terms before joining Van Halen. Gary Cherone was viewed as a guy who had one hit single under his belt before Van Halen...with a 2nd-rate hair metal band....and the song was a 'unplugged'-type tune, to boot!

    Like, Van Halen trying to launch themselves for a third time was not going to be an easy task regardless. Van Halen 3 was going to be a tough sell to begin with, and that would have been the case even had the band NOT had their brief dalliance with Roth in 1996. To get people hyped up and excited over CVH reuniting, then trying a bait-and-switch with Gary Cherone as the new lead singer? That lineup was pretty much doomed to fail before they even started recording. Mitch Malloy was smart enough to know that him joining the band after the Van Halens had teased the public with a Roth reunion was a sure loser for any new Van Halen lineup, and wisely bowed out.

    The ten years following the 1996 shenanigans were not kind to Van Halen, or Roth. By the time they got it together, too many substance abuse issues and the onset of old age had sapped whatever chances for success a Roth reunion would have. Sure, the band have made good money since 2006 with Dave, but the much-hoped for Roth reunion hasn't really amounted to much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadaverdog View Post
    Considering Dave's attitude at the time an attempted CVH reunion in 96 might have ended without another album or tour. Even if Ed and Alex were considering a reunion with Dave after putting out a greatest hits record that night at the VMAs would have probably ended that attempt right then and there. Has anyone asked either party about what went on behind the scenes during the recording of those new songs Dave did for the greatest hits album? I wonder if it's possible Ed and Alex were considering a reunion with Dave and just said the plan was just to have him back long enough to record those songs as an after thought because they were so pissed off about what happened at the VMAs. They toured with Sammy to promote that greatest hits album. I know everyone involved says that last tour with Hagar was tension city but how did things go while Sam was recording those three new songs for the second VH greatest hits album? I guess I better research it myself if I want those answers.
    According to Hagar, the recording sessions for the three new tunes on the BOBW album were needlessly prolonged, mostly because Eddie was fucked up, to be frank about it. Eddie was fiddling about with his gear, doing take after take of his guitar parts, take after take of his bass parts (because Anthony wasn't allowed to play bass on the tracks). Hagar and Anthony did the background vocal tracks inside of (if I remember correctly) a day, and it took Hagar a few days to do his lead vocals. And it took a few months for Ed to record his overdubs and mix the tracks. And Hagar was a bit astonished because the recording process prior to that was never something Eddie had struggled with.

    And you hear those tracks and can't imagine it taking several months to write and record them: they sound like they were fobbed off inside of a week.

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    Well exactly.

    Eddie didn't make him write shitty melodies and lyrics that were bad even by his usual standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twonabomber View Post
    Skeletor Ed
    Skeletor Ed and The Ultimate Enabler. Sounds like one of the wrasslin tag teams you'd see at your local Guard armory lol. It's funny cause most people here give Al a pass on him pimping his brother to make a buck but they rag on Slappy for touring with Ed when he was still clearly fuckee fuckeed out of his mind. I'd bet the conversation went pretty much like this...

    Sam: Hey Al, you really think Ed can pull this off, make it through a tour? Cause I ain't so sure man.

    Al: Yeah, yeah, he's fine.

    Sam: Ok, you're his brother and if you say he can do it then I'm down.

    Al: When do we get paid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    Down to just Eddie and Alex Van Halen from the original band, Roth, at long last, officially re-joined Van Halen for a world tour in 2007...
    I fucking wish it had been a world tour, that would have saved me a bunch of cash...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    I fucking wish it had been a world tour, that would have saved me a bunch of cash...

    Have they even played any European dates at all since they reformed with Roth? Or has it only been Japan and Down Under in terms of anything outside the US?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Have they even played any European dates at all since they reformed with Roth? Or has it only been Japan and Down Under in terms of anything outside the US?
    Just Japan and Australia.

    They have played 5 gigs in Europe since 1980!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Just Japan and Australia.

    They have played 5 gigs in Europe since 1980!!!

    In retrospect though, wasn't VH's 1984 appearance in the UK relatively received lukewarm? I read quite a bit of "meh" responses.....

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    I was a little too young and missed it but a single show in a muddy field in daylight wasn't really ideal.

    Some other people who post here were there so should chime up.



    It was a pretty insane lineup and you can imagine ACDC with a lightshow working better with an increasingly drunk crowd. My memory is that the reviews were at the time in the press were good but (rightly) questioned the need for a bass, drum and guitar solo in a relatively short festival set.


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    Setlist
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    On Fire
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    Little Guitars
    House of Pain
    Bass Solo
    I'll Wait
    Everybody Wants Some!!
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    1984
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    You Really Got Me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Van Halen blew it in 1996.

    My sense of what happened is that Ed probably did want to reunite with Dave when they started recording the two BOV1 tracks beyond just a quickie for the greatest hits album. Or that the idea of Dave rejoining the band for a full-length album and a tour wasn't something that was 100% out of the question in Ed's mind when Dave first walked into the 5150 studio in 1996. I think what became apparent to Ed fairly quickly was that Dave wasn't going to be anybody different than he was back when he was in Van Halen. And for whatever misgivings they had with Hagar by the time 1996 rolled around, Hagar for most of his time in the group was a pretty easy fit personality-wise. Plus, Hagar wasn't a dominant or controlling person in the manner that Dave was. After 11 years of working with the personality type of Hagar, Ed just didn't want to go back to dealing with working with Dave, where Dave would be expecting to have his ideas about musical content and the group image taken seriously and on equal footing with those of Eddie, Alex and their management.

    Clearly, the Van Halens and their management well before the VMAs had decided to, at the very least, leave their options open. Why else would they have been auditioning Malloy, Cherone and god knows who else during the time frame between the recording of the two BOV1 tracks and the VMAs? And I really don't think either of the Van Halens had any idea by the time 1996 rolled around there would still be a massive amount of fan sentiment favoring Roth rejoining the group. Shit, by the time 1996 rolled around, Roth's solo career had basically tanked. Doubtless the Van Halens felt that if they were able to survive Roth leaving the band in 1985, when Roth was at his career zenith in terms of popularity and cultural relevance, they'd be able to do so with far greater ease in 1996. It wasn't an illogical assumption to make on their part. IF they came up with someone truly unique for a third lead singer.

    I just remember laughing when the dust finally settled and we found out the new lead singer - the guy Van Halen passed over Roth and a CVH reunion tour for - was Gary Cherone. I mean, whatever one wanted to make of Hagar's career before he joined Van Halen, at least Hagar had HAD a successful career in commercial terms before joining Van Halen. Gary Cherone was viewed as a guy who had one hit single under his belt before Van Halen...with a 2nd-rate hair metal band....and the song was a 'unplugged'-type tune, to boot!

    Like, Van Halen trying to launch themselves for a third time was not going to be an easy task regardless. Van Halen 3 was going to be a tough sell to begin with, and that would have been the case even had the band NOT had their brief dalliance with Roth in 1996. To get people hyped up and excited over CVH reuniting, then trying a bait-and-switch with Gary Cherone as the new lead singer? That lineup was pretty much doomed to fail before they even started recording. Mitch Malloy was smart enough to know that him joining the band after the Van Halens had teased the public with a Roth reunion was a sure loser for any new Van Halen lineup, and wisely bowed out.

    The ten years following the 1996 shenanigans were not kind to Van Halen, or Roth. By the time they got it together, too many substance abuse issues and the onset of old age had sapped whatever chances for success a Roth reunion would have. Sure, the band have made good money since 2006 with Dave, but the much-hoped for Roth reunion hasn't really amounted to much.
    I would slightly disagree in that I'm not sure how serious Ed ever was about Dave being back permanently. I do think Dave was in denial to a degree about what those two BOV1 songs meant relative to him being back, but Ed's duplicity certainly didn't help. Hell, even at the infamous VMAs Ed was still leaving shit open ended when he could've ended all the speculation right there, which would've been helpful since Cherone was already hired. Just a couple of days ago I watched pieces of their interview with Kurt Loder at the VMAs and if I remember correctly, even there Ed said that it was two songs, two videos and then they'd go from there (or some such sentiment). Well, "there" was continuing with Cherone, so why give the impression that there was some sort of future with Dave?

    I do agree that the other 3 guys, particularly Ed, underestimated not only the sentiment of the crowd at the VMAs, but fan reaction in general to Van Halen with Dave. When they walked out and received that ovation, the only person who thought it was "half assed" was Ed. I sure as hell was pumped when they came out together, just like everybody else!

    Cherone on vocals certainly added insult to injury for me, but honestly, I don't think it would've made a difference who they got at that point as I was just pissed and incredulous that the Dave thing went the way it did. Golden fuckin' opportunity to reclaim the throne and kick ass with Dave, but why do that when you can put out How Many Say I instead. Sigh. What a waste of an opportunity.

    I hadn't listened to them in literally years, but I'd forgotten how much I liked those two BOV1 tunes. Pity that those songs have basically been forgotten because I'd enjoy hearing them live. It's like those songs don't even exist to them anymore. What're you gonna do, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjitsu View Post
    I would slightly disagree in that I'm not sure how serious Ed ever was about Dave being back permanently. I do think Dave was in denial to a degree about what those two BOV1 songs meant relative to him being back, but Ed's duplicity certainly didn't help. Hell, even at the infamous VMAs Ed was still leaving shit open ended when he could've ended all the speculation right there, which would've been helpful since Cherone was already hired. Just a couple of days ago I watched pieces of their interview with Kurt Loder at the VMAs and if I remember correctly, even there Ed said that it was two songs, two videos and then they'd go from there (or some such sentiment). Well, "there" was continuing with Cherone, so why give the impression that there was some sort of future with Dave?

    I do agree that the other 3 guys, particularly Ed, underestimated not only the sentiment of the crowd at the VMAs, but fan reaction in general to Van Halen with Dave. When they walked out and received that ovation, the only person who thought it was "half assed" was Ed. I sure as hell was pumped when they came out together, just like everybody else!

    Cherone on vocals certainly added insult to injury for me, but honestly, I don't think it would've made a difference who they got at that point as I was just pissed and incredulous that the Dave thing went the way it did. Golden fuckin' opportunity to reclaim the throne and kick ass with Dave, but why do that when you can put out How Many Say I instead. Sigh. What a waste of an opportunity.

    I hadn't listened to them in literally years, but I'd forgotten how much I liked those two BOV1 tunes. Pity that those songs have basically been forgotten because I'd enjoy hearing them live. It's like those songs don't even exist to them anymore. What're you gonna do, right?
    Well, I think Ed in the late spring of 1996 was entertaining the idea of reuniting with Dave seriously enough that he told Hagar they were getting Roth back in the band when [Eddie] called [Hagar] and told him he should go back to being a solo artist. I tend to doubt Ed had a master plan gamed out from before he recorded the BOV1 tracks with Dave where he was planning from the get-go to string Dave along, rehearse with other singers, do the VMAs, let the public think the band were reuniting until BOV1 came out so the album sales wouldn't take a hit, then announce a singer other than Roth was joining. I think all of that was just the way it ended up evolving because Ed decided while the BOV1 recording sessions were happening that he didn't want to do anything with Dave other than the tracks.

    To be sure, while even Dave admitted that Ed never told him he was back in the band, Ed also told Dave he wasn't looking for a different singer when he in fact was. As to why Ed simply didn't tell Dave this, or say anything at the VMAs about it...I mean, I think the Van Halen brothers just thought that they made a commercially successful lead singer switch once before, so there would be no reason why they couldn't do it again. Maybe if they had never bothered doing those BOV1 tracks with Roth and the VMA appearance with him, they could have.

    Yeah, I quite like those two Roth BOV1 tracks, too. A shame we'll never get to hear them live.

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    A couple of further thoughts. Based on subsequent interviews (i believe this came from an interview with Mike), a large factor in why they even went to the VMAs was to play nice with MTV so they'd subsequently play the planned videos for the new BOV1 songs, which of course would be a nice promotional push. Let's say things don't implode at the VMAs and they get along well enough to make those videos. What was the fuckin' plan after that? Gary himself confirmed that he was hired before the VMAs. So was the plan to make these videos (which probably would've cranked up the excitement of Dave being back even more), then at some in the future just announce that Gary had been hired? How was that ever going to work? What if the videos and BOV1 sales had blown up and reignited even further interest in CVH? And we thought the way it went down was bad. It would've been even beyond that if they'd made those videos, pimped BOV1 and rolled with Gary anyway. What a friggin' travesty that would've been. (It was a travesty anyway, but this would've been worse IMO)

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    I think they sand-bagged the videos and proper promotion of BOV1 out of fear that it could blow up. Ed definitely had his mind on anything but picking up where '84 left off. He just could not have gone about things any more irratically wrong than he did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    One of the guys on FB posted this Japanese video interview with EVH and AVH after the '96 fiasco.... Interesting AVH says Dave's lyrics were "very intelligent" for the 2 new songs..... Also that they were making a video for MWM before the plug got pulled....
    Thanks for posting! Wow, Dave was still in the band at the time (kinda). Interesting shit. I don't think anyone's seen that before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjitsu View Post
    A couple of further thoughts. Based on subsequent interviews (i believe this came from an interview with Mike), a large factor in why they even went to the VMAs was to play nice with MTV so they'd subsequently play the planned videos for the new BOV1 songs, which of course would be a nice promotional push. Let's say things don't implode at the VMAs and they get along well enough to make those videos. What was the fuckin' plan after that? Gary himself confirmed that he was hired before the VMAs. So was the plan to make these videos (which probably would've cranked up the excitement of Dave being back even more), then at some in the future just announce that Gary had been hired? How was that ever going to work? What if the videos and BOV1 sales had blown up and reignited even further interest in CVH? And we thought the way it went down was bad. It would've been even beyond that if they'd made those videos, pimped BOV1 and rolled with Gary anyway. What a friggin' travesty that would've been. (It was a travesty anyway, but this would've been worse IMO)
    I'd have to imagine a lot of the blame came down to the ineptness of Van Halen's then-manager, (who by coincidence had also been Extreme's manager). If the Van Halens in the summer of 1996 weren't smart enough or clued-in enough to realize the public wanted to see Dave rejoin the fold, Van Halen's manager SHOULD have been. I mean, one doesn't necessarily expect rock stars to be tuned into the details of the business end of the music biz, or public relations: that stuff is exactly why bands HAVE managers.

    After the two BOV1 tracks were recorded, clearly the band decided they weren't going to reunite with Dave beyond doing promo videos for the tracks. At that point, you're exactly right: what use is it to have Dave come out onstage with them at the VMAs? A smart manager would have decided that wouldn't be a good idea considering the group were going with a different singer anyway, and would have been strong enough to resist any pressure from MTV to insist that Roth appear.

    And you're right that in the end it really didn't matter much anyway that Roth decided not to make any promo videos for the two songs. The tunes got plenty of radio play, and the greatest hits release sold 2.5 million copies.

    And even if the band and their manager were clueless about how much the public was anticipating Roth rejoining the band prior to the VMAs, the response the band got at the VMAs should have been a wake-up call.

    Frankly, once the band decided to record the two tracks with Roth, anything short of the band reuniting with Roth for a new album and a tour already poisoned the well for a third singer. This is far more crucial than wondering if Cherone was the right singer or not. He wasn't, but after getting Roth back into the fold temporarily, that course of action doomed the chances of ANY replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I'd have to imagine a lot of the blame came down to the ineptness of Van Halen's then-manager, (who by coincidence had also been Extreme's manager). If the Van Halens in the summer of 1996 weren't smart enough or clued-in enough to realize the public wanted to see Dave rejoin the fold, Van Halen's manager SHOULD have been. I mean, one doesn't necessarily expect rock stars to be tuned into the details of the business end of the music biz, or public relations: that stuff is exactly why bands HAVE managers.

    After the two BOV1 tracks were recorded, clearly the band decided they weren't going to reunite with Dave beyond doing promo videos for the tracks. At that point, you're exactly right: what use is it to have Dave come out onstage with them at the VMAs? A smart manager would have decided that wouldn't be a good idea considering the group were going with a different singer anyway, and would have been strong enough to resist any pressure from MTV to insist that Roth appear.

    And you're right that in the end it really didn't matter much anyway that Roth decided not to make any promo videos for the two songs. The tunes got plenty of radio play, and the greatest hits release sold 2.5 million copies.

    And even if the band and their manager were clueless about how much the public was anticipating Roth rejoining the band prior to the VMAs, the response the band got at the VMAs should have been a wake-up call.

    Frankly, once the band decided to record the two tracks with Roth, anything short of the band reuniting with Roth for a new album and a tour already poisoned the well for a third singer. This is far more crucial than wondering if Cherone was the right singer or not. He wasn't, but after getting Roth back into the fold temporarily, that course of action doomed the chances of ANY replacement.
    It was a few months between when Sam left and the VMAs. You'd of thought the VH's were on one Dave's New Guinea trips isolated from the rest of the world during that time period based on their cluelessness about how pumped people were at the thought of dave being back, especially when word got out that they were working on new material, even though it was just a couple of tunes. The internet was in its infancy then, but wouldn't they have gotten some indication of the excitement people were feeling about the thought of dave being back from musician friends, contacts in the industry, local radio, something? It's difficult to believe that they had no concept of the pandora's box they were opening prior to the point that they walked out onstage with dave at the VMAs.

    And you're exactly right- after that summer and the VMAs, there's no way anybody other than Roth would've been accepted. Brilliant plan by the brothers. Pump people up about a Dave reunion, pull the rug out on that, hire a guy that the bulk of their fans are either indifferent to or don't like, wait 18 months to put out an album that nobody's excited about, then foist an absolute turd of an album on what's left of your fanbase. Much better career choice than bringing dave back in to the fold, kicking ass, and reclaiming your title as the greatest american rock band ever!
    Last edited by chuckjitsu; 09-16-2016 at 08:43 PM.

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    Now you know why KISS avoided playing with the original band at HOF induction like the devil the holy water...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjitsu View Post
    It was a few months between when Sam left and the VMAs. You'd of thought the VH's were on one Dave's New Guinea trips isolated from the rest of the world during that time period based on their cluelessness about how pumped people were at the thought of dave being back, especially when word got out that they were working on new material, even though it was just a couple of tunes. The internet was in its infancy then, but wouldn't they have gotten some indication of the excitement people were feeling about the thought of dave being back from musician friends, contacts in the industry, local radio, something? It's difficult to believe that they had no concept of the pandora's box they were opening prior to the point that they walked out onstage with dave at the VMAs.

    And you're exactly right- after that summer and the VMAs, there's no way anybody other than Roth would've been accepted. Brilliant plan by the brothers. Pump people up about a Dave reunion, pull the rug out on that, hire a guy that the bulk of their fans are either indifferent to or don't like, wait 18 months to put out an album that nobody's excited about, then foist an absolute turd of an album on what's left of your fanbase. Much better career choice than bringing dave back in to the fold, kicking ass, and reclaiming your title as the greatest american rock band ever!
    Yeah, it is kinda difficult to think the Van Halens had no clue as to how the general public felt about a Roth reunion prospect in the summer of 1996. I don't necessarily think there was a master plan in place in June of 1996 by the Van Halens to record with Roth, dupe him into thinking he was in the band ("two songs was all I knew for sure" as Roth's Oct 1996 open letter said), dupe the public into thinking Roth was in the band so they would buy the greatest hits record (Ed clearly pointed out this wasn't the case at the VMA press conferences after the presentations, saying that there were no long range plans with Dave beyond making videos for the 2 BOV1 tracks, which was a few weeks before the BOV1 album was released) and then pull the rug out from under everybody.

    The net effect of what happened made it seem that way, but it was more likely a series of blunders, having second-thoughts, capitulating to MTV and Warner Brothers and bad management decisions by Van Halens manager. And it wouldn't be surprising that the Van Halens thought the fallout of the 1996 Roth debacle would be short-lived. They would have every reason to think they would be successful with Cherone, because up to that point Van Halen was a very successful band and had no experience with a major career setback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidLeeNatra View Post
    Now you know why KISS avoided playing with the original band at HOF induction like the devil the holy water...

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    Well, the thing of that is Stanley and Simmons just have no more use for Peter Criss. They don't like him, and he doesn't like them.

    And Peter Criss is no longer able to play a full-length concert. Simply put, he physically cannot do it. So even if the band HAD reunited at the HOF to actually play a couple tunes, it was never a possibility that would have then turned into a full-on reunion: it wouldn't have been 1995 all over again.

    Taking those things into account, there would be no upside (financial or otherwise) for Stanley and Simmons to performing a couple of tunes with Criss at the HOF. Because Stanley and Simmons aren't interested in the fans out there who would want to see such a thing. Stanley and Simmons are only interested in the fans out there who are currently willing to pay money to see the band with the current lineup, because those are the fans who pay their bills. I'm not saying any of that critically, either. Were I in their shoes, I probably wouldn't want to bother playing a couple of tunes with Peter Criss and Ace Frehley, either.

    Now, as someone who would have liked to have seen the original KISS lineup get up there and play a couple of tunes (in or out of makeup), yeah...it's pretty lame to me that it didn't happen. But I wasn't particularly bummed out by it.

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    But if they did it would be completely over for the current line up.

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    The general consensus seems to be that Stanley and Simmons didn't want to play with Frehley and Criss at the HOF because of fears that the public would then demand the original lineup reunite, and it would jeopardize the current lineup's ability to fill venues. I tend to doubt that line of thinking. Criss physically can't play a full set with the band anymore. He hasn't been able to for years, even before the HOF. Even Criss admits this. So there was never any chance of a HOF appearance resulting in the band getting rid of Eric Singer for Peter Criss.

    The current version of the band probably doesn't have that much longer to go, anyway. Paul Stanley has been having significant problems with his voice for several years.

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    Reasonable people know that Chriss/Frehley is no option anymore...but we're talking about FANS here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Well, the thing of that is Stanley and Simmons just have no more use for Peter Criss. They don't like him, and he doesn't like them.

    And Peter Criss is no longer able to play a full-length concert. Simply put, he physically cannot do it. So even if the band HAD reunited at the HOF to actually play a couple tunes, it was never a possibility that would have then turned into a full-on reunion: it wouldn't have been 1995 all over again.

    Taking those things into account, there would be no upside (financial or otherwise) for Stanley and Simmons to performing a couple of tunes with Criss at the HOF. Because Stanley and Simmons aren't interested in the fans out there who would want to see such a thing. Stanley and Simmons are only interested in the fans out there who are currently willing to pay money to see the band with the current lineup, because those are the fans who pay their bills. I'm not saying any of that critically, either. Were I in their shoes, I probably wouldn't want to bother playing a couple of tunes with Peter Criss and Ace Frehley, either.

    Now, as someone who would have liked to have seen the original KISS lineup get up there and play a couple of tunes (in or out of makeup), yeah...it's pretty lame to me that it didn't happen. But I wasn't particularly bummed out by it.

    I've read all of the KISS autobiographies, I would lean more towards financial reasons why Peter didn't stay....

    Pretty sure Gene/Paul told Ace/Peter that if they were to continue that they would have to agree to be 'employees', like Singer/Thayer are now, and thus not getting an equal share of the $$$$.....

    I agree, though, in Peter's playing ability.... It was obvious on the reunion tour in '96 he was just going through the motions....

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    Watching that VMA segment still makes me piss my pants with hate...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Watching that VMA segment still makes me piss my pants with hate...
    You probably shouldn't watch it if you have company over

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    Quote Originally Posted by DONNIEP View Post
    You probably shouldn't watch it if you have company over
    Why? Then I have a good excuse for the massive wet spot...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Watching that VMA segment still makes me piss my pants with hate...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Va Beach VH Fan View Post
    I've read all of the KISS autobiographies, I would lean more towards financial reasons why Peter didn't stay....

    Pretty sure Gene/Paul told Ace/Peter that if they were to continue that they would have to agree to be 'employees', like Singer/Thayer are now, and thus not getting an equal share of the $$$$.....

    I agree, though, in Peter's playing ability.... It was obvious on the reunion tour in '96 he was just going through the motions....
    From the get-go with the reunion in 1996, the profit split for the band was 70% to Stanley/Simmons, with Ace getting 20% and Criss getting 10%.

    Criss wanted to renegotiate his contract with the band (which was renewed yearly) in 2000 and get paid more. The band balked, so Criss 'quit' and Eric Singer ended up performing for a string of dates that year. Criss came back, and a couple of years later Frehley, by his own decision, left the band (basically stating publicly that a 6-year reunion/'farewell' tour was more than enough for him). Stanley ended up canning Criss in 2004. The last tour Criss did with the band saw Tommy Thayer earning more per show than Criss was.

    Criss WAS basically an 'employee' for his entire tenure with the band from 1996 to 2003. A well-paid one (for all of Peter's complaints, even he readily admits that even though the share of the profits he got was less than that of Stanley and Simmons, he made WAY more money than he ever would have otherwise), but Criss basically did what he was told to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidLeeNatra View Post
    Reasonable people know that Chriss/Frehley is no option anymore...but we're talking about FANS here...

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    Well, yeah, that's the thing.

    I mean, shit, some people still think if Mike Anthony rejoins Van Halen FINALLY the missing piece will be there and it will be 1981 all over again. Any chance of that happening evaporated 20 years ago. What difference does it matter now if Anthony is there: Dave's voice is still gonna be fucked regardless.

    As a huge fan of the original lineup in the 1970s, yeah, it would have been neat if the original lineup had played a couple of tunes at the HOF. I could even see the original lineup recording some new music (not to say it would necessarily stack up to the 1970s output, but they could still physically do it). The idea of the original lineup putting on the makeup now and doing a massive tour is a non-starter: Paul Stanley can barely get through shows these days without his voice giving out. Peter Criss can't physically get through a 90 minute show anymore.

    I mean, it's done. But I suppose for some as long as the original members are all still alive anything is possible, however removed the reality would be from the fantasy.

  41. Thanked Terry for this KICKASS post:

    DavidLeeNatra (09-20-2016)


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