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Thread: Tax Penalty to Hit Nearly 6M Uninsured People

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    Angry Tax Penalty to Hit Nearly 6M Uninsured People

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    Tax penalty to hit nearly 6M uninsured people

    By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press – 9 hours ago
    WASHINGTON (AP) — Nearly 6 million Americans — significantly more than first estimated— will face a tax penalty under President Barack Obama's health overhaul for not getting insurance, congressional analysts said Wednesday. Most would be in the middle class.

    The new estimate amounts to an inconvenient fact for the administration, a reminder of what critics see as broken promises.

    The numbers from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office are 50 percent higher than a previous projection by the same office in 2010, shortly after the law passed. The earlier estimate found 4 million people would be affected in 2016, when the penalty is fully in effect.

    That's still only a sliver of the population, given that more than 150 million people currently are covered by employer plans. Nonetheless, in his first campaign for the White House, Obama pledged not to raise taxes on individuals making less than $200,000 a year and couples making less than $250,000.

    And the budget office analysis found that nearly 80 percent of those who'll face the penalty would be making up to or less than five times the federal poverty level. Currently that would work out to $55,850 or less for an individual and $115,250 or less for a family of four.

    Average penalty: about $1,200 in 2016.

    "The bad news and broken promises from Obamacare just keep piling up," said Rep. Dave Camp, R-Mich., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, who wants to repeal the law.

    Starting in 2014, virtually every legal resident of the U.S. will be required to carry health insurance or face a tax penalty, with exemptions for financial hardship, religious objections and certain other circumstances. Most people will not have to worry about the requirement since they already have coverage through employers, government programs like Medicare or by buying their own policies.
    A spokeswoman for the Obama administration said 98 percent of Americans will not be affected by the tax penalty — and suggested that those who will be should face up to their civic responsibilities.
    "This (analysis) doesn't change the basic fact that the individual responsibility policy will only affect people who can afford health care but choose not to buy it," said Erin Shields Britt of the Health and Human Services Department. "We're no longer going to subsidize the care of those who can afford to buy insurance but make a choice not to buy it."

    The budget office said most of the increase in its estimate is due to changes in underlying projections about the economy, incorporating the effects of new federal legislation, as well as higher unemployment and lower wages.

    The Supreme Court upheld Obama's law as constitutional in a 5-4 decision this summer, finding that the insurance mandate and the tax penalty enforcing it fall within the power of Congress to impose taxes. The penalty will be collected by the IRS, just like taxes.

    The budget office said the penalty will raise $6.9 billion in 2016.

    The new law will also provide government aid to help middle-class and low-income households afford coverage, the financial carrot that balances out the penalty.

    Nonetheless, some people might still decide to remain uninsured because they object to government mandates or because they feel they would come out ahead financially even if they have to pay the penalty. Health insurance is expensive, with employer-provided family coverage averaging nearly $15,800 a year for a family and $4,300 for a single plan. Indeed, insurance industry experts say the federal penalty may be too low.

    The Supreme Court also allowed individual states to opt out of a major Medicaid expansion under the law. The Obama administration says it will exempt low-income people in states that opt out from having to comply with the insurance requirement.

    Many Republicans still regard the insurance mandate as unconstitutional and rue the day the Supreme Court upheld it.

    However, the idea for an individual insurance requirement comes from Republican health care plans in the 1990s.

    It's also a central element of the 2006 Massachusetts health care law signed by then-GOP Gov. Mitt Romney, now running against Obama and promising to repeal the federal law.

    Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul said Wednesday the new report is more evidence that Obama's law is a "costly disaster."

    "Even more of the middle-class families who President Obama promised would see no tax increase will in fact see a massive tax increase thanks to Obamacare," she said.

    Romney says insurance mandates should be up to each state. The approach seems to have worked well in Massachusetts, with virtually all residents covered and dwindling numbers opting to pay the penalty instead.
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    Are these not the same people that everyone usually has to subsidize because they just turn up at the ER?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Are these not the same people that everyone usually has to subsidize because they just turn up at the ER?
    That's what I was just wondering...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Are these not the same people that everyone usually has to subsidize because they just turn up at the ER?
    Yes, but Brie's totally OK with paying MORE for them to be treated that way...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    Yes, but Brie's totally OK with paying MORE for them to be treated that way...
    Irony is cruel...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    Are these not the same people that everyone usually has to subsidize because they just turn up at the ER?
    Maybe they show up at the ER... but today nobody is subsidizing them. They show up, get treated and walk out with a big assed bill. They don't pay they get sued or collection agencies, etc...
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    Doesn't matter, the hospital ER will still see none of that money. One of the bigger trauma ER centers in Erie Co. NY is having problems with this and would be bankrupt if not supported by the county, and its asshole-money, er, taxpayers such as I...
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    Has anyone checked the price of health insurance lately? It's gone up and now we are supposed to buy this overpriced shit or pay a fine. People need to get it through their fat skulls insurance and healthcare are two different things. Insurance is the business of calculated odds. You make money by taking people's money and giving them nothing back. 85% of the population have no serious long-term illness. They make break a bone or need stitches. So most the money people pay in insurance premiums is pure profit. This is why people like Warren Buffet own insurance companies. They are profitable.

    Healthcare is actually providing the care. This is less profitable than insurance because there is more overhead costs. What I have found is it's cheaper to buy the healthcare than the insurance. My daughter needed surgery on her shoulder. I paid cash and negotiated cash prices. The doctor knocked off 20% right off. The hospital was more difficult but my tenacious wife got them to knock 17% off the bill. If you look at what is billed to insurance or medicare it's way more. I once purchased an $18 drug and found on the invoice they were billing medicare $120!

    What people really need is decent jobs and they need to put away 10-20% for a rainy day and negotiate price and pay cash as often as possible. Then have a bankruptsy insurance policy with a high deductable that covers heaven forbid the big costs.

    There is no free lunch and nobody will look after you or your family better than you. Learn how to make money, save some of it, and learn to negotiate prices. This saying the government is going to take care of my is laughable. Yeah the same government that hasn't prosecuted a banker in something like 48 months. It's pretty obvious the insurance companies wrote Obamacare. At least the ones connected to the Obama Administration will make out like the bandits they are .
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    The only true way to solve the health care crisis is to take the profit out of the system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Doesn't matter, the hospital ER will still see none of that money. One of the bigger trauma ER centers in Erie Co. NY is having problems with this and would be bankrupt if not supported by the county, and its asshole-money, er, taxpayers such as I...
    There used to be some excellent county owned hospitals. Sadly one a friend of mine worked at was sold to a private healthcare conglomerate and it's all about the bucks. Why this happened is the country spent too much money on expensive landscaping, additions they did not need, and a parking garage. It would have been cheaper to build a whole new hospital on a new footprint with more parking than what they dumped into the old building to bring it up to earthquake code and try and make a big facility work on a lot that was mostly a hillside. Just poor money management.

    This seems to be the problem with government. Too many people in it are corrupt or just plain money dumb. The whole nation is money dumb. I mean they say something like 90% of people don't even check their bank statements or balances. No wonder we have the banking problems we do. Nobody is even bothering to see if they are getting ripped off. But it comes from people not owning anything. Most the cars are owned by the bank and most the houses are owned by the bank. The average savings in the US is something like $2,000 and the average credit card debt is $8,000. They banks own the motherfuckers and they know it and they buy the politicians who ask for another pound of blood. This is the problem. The mass majority of the population don't know how to handle money and it's made the banks very powerful. Expecting a bank owned government to take care of you is no solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    The only true way to solve the health care crisis is to take the profit out of the system.
    That gets rid of the greed motivator but who manages it? Incompetent management will still ruin it.

    The crises I see in this country more than any other is competent management and leadership. I look at our government now and there is no real leadership in it. It's a bunch of people seeing what they can get away with and senators and congressmen are becoming multi-milionares while in office. The public treasury is just a big slush fund to rob from. A slush fund being filled with borrowed money. The takers don't think they will have to pay any of it back, we will kick it down the road and let the future generations deal with it. Well, it's come home to roost sooner than a lot of people thought it would. We are dealing with things now that people thought we wouldn't have to deal with until 30 years have passed. Why? The huge amount of spending that has occurred in a very short time and the Republicans and Democrats are both guilty on this.
    Last edited by Nitro Express; 09-20-2012 at 01:29 PM.

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    Profit is one step... fully standardizing electronic records for all medicare/medicaid and house it in a centralized database... then run similar programs that credit card companies use to detect fraud. That would curb a few billion in fraud out of the system.

    While you're at it... reform tort law specific to the medical industry so that malpractice insurance isn't required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    The only true way to solve the health care crisis is to take the profit out of the system.
    Profit for who? Are you going to put doctors on a salary scale also? Answer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhale667 View Post
    Yes, but Brie's totally OK with paying MORE for them to be treated that way...
    Not necessarily true. You'd be surprised at how much is written off.

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    All the government did with healthcare was make it a bigger scam than it already was. I mean government fixing things is great but not when a bunch of crooks run the government. You have to have good people in there and the public just so gullible that frankly, that's why we have the assholes in charge that we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    Profit for who? Are you going to put doctors on a salary scale also? Answer that.
    Why not? Our doc's get $65 for a patient visit, specialists get twice that. A patient visit is approx. 20 minutes. That gives gp's $260/hr and specialists $520. Pretty damn good wages if you ask me...

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    That's really the trick is the pricing. I mean if our utilities weren't regulated we would be taken to the cleaners on those. The problem with healthcare is you just aren't paying for one thing that a meter can measure. So it gets very tricky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    That's really the trick is the pricing. I mean if our utilities weren't regulated we would be taken to the cleaners on those. The problem with healthcare is you just aren't paying for one thing that a meter can measure. So it gets very tricky.
    That it does, especially for patients that require additional time, such as trans-gendered and AIDS patients. Most Dr's here will only allow you to bring up one health concern per visit, because they end up spending too much time on a patient if they allow more. It's a tough balancing act, but we still spend less on healthcare than you do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBrian View Post
    Profit for who? Are you going to put doctors on a salary scale also? Answer that.
    Doctors actually provide health care and should be well paid for it. As opposed to insurance corporations, who produce nothing, much like Wall Street bankers and vulture capitalists like Willard Mittens Romney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    That gets rid of the greed motivator but who manages it? Incompetent management will still ruin it.
    There will be waste but even incompetent management is much cheaper than insurance companies keeping a third of all your healthcare funding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    Profit is one step... fully standardizing electronic records for all medicare/medicaid and house it in a centralized database... then run similar programs that credit card companies use to detect fraud. That would curb a few billion in fraud out of the system.
    It's a great idea but I fear too many people would go nuts about the privacy issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    It's a great idea but I fear too many people would go nuts about the privacy issues.
    We've got it here on a provincial basis. It's a great tool. Dr's immediately see what meds you're already on already, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    Maybe they show up at the ER... but today nobody is subsidizing them. They show up, get treated and walk out with a big assed bill. They don't pay they get sued or collection agencies, etc...
    Unless you are Mexican and the hospital is in San Diego. If you are a white citizen and can't pay, the collection agency will be on your ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Doctors actually provide health care and should be well paid for it. As opposed to insurance corporations, who produce nothing, much like Wall Street bankers and vulture capitalists like Willard Mittens Romney.
    Like I said, providing the care is cheap compared to buying the insurance. Doctors will still make good livings. What has happened is the insurance companies have become the middle man. We need to pay the medical people directly and pay a fair price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    It's a great idea but I fear too many people would go nuts about the privacy issues.
    Our HIPPA laws are actually pretty darn effective on protecting privacy issues. What most people don't realize is much of this information is already stored electronically especially in insurance programs. The issue is lack of standardization and cross-communication among disconnected medical firms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    Our HIPPA laws are actually pretty darn effective on protecting privacy issues. What most people don't realize is much of this information is already stored electronically especially in insurance programs. The issue is lack of standardization and cross-communication among disconnected medical firms.
    I agree. Most medical info IS stored electronically whether people like it or not. People having a good knowledge of HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act...for those that don't know what it stands for) and Electronic Medical Records are in strong demand for employment. You're right, of course, Zah: standardization within the industry is key and i feel it's just a matter of time before it happens. I don't mean just within the US either, though that is the immediate goal. Think of how a doctor in Chicago can look at the British NHS record of someone needing care that is there on vacation from London.

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    For $1200, I'll take the penalty...

    Seems like a good deal for emergency healthcare...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Like I said, providing the care is cheap compared to buying the insurance. Doctors will still make good livings. What has happened is the insurance companies have become the middle man. We need to pay the medical people directly and pay a fair price.
    No dude, these doctors are used to lavish lifestyles and they game the system...

    It's an open door for a doctor to get away with ordering all sorts of tests and procedures and medication that they were wined and dined by Big Pharma to prescribe...

    And they bill the insurance companies, so nobody gets hurt, right ??

    There needs some oversight in the care administered by physicians...

    But I still think this should be at the state level as are all of my healthcare ideas...

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    If I work for some company in 2014 (like the one I am at) who pays for my insurance, fine.

    If not, and I do not have insurance, no, I will not pay a fucking fine. There will be opt-outs for religious reasons, financial hardship or "other" reasons.

    I'll be goddamned if I am going to pay a fine because I refuse to be forced to pay for something by the fucking government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
    But I still think this should be at the state level as are all of my healthcare ideas...

    That's flawed logic...why would Louisiana be better at healthcare than California, or Ohio or any other state? There should be Federal oversight and equal care/coverage for the entire nation.

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    revisiting.


    anybody change their mind?
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    Fuck this and fuck that
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksmar View Post
    revisiting.


    anybody change their mind?
    Nope. I was right the first time, and the answer is even more obvious now to anybody who was paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    The only true way to solve the health care crisis is to take the profit out of the system.
    A single payer, Medicare for all system is the only sensible solution.

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    What the hell happened to BBB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Nope. I was right the first time, and the answer is even more obvious now to anybody who was paying attention.



    A single payer, Medicare for all system is the only sensible solution.
    spoken like Berkeley Professor Jacob Hacker..........

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    Who really gives a fuck about what Obama said in 2009? Does this GOP/Trump+RyanCare burning fucking clown car of a bill have a chance to pass?

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