Noel Monk book out 13th June

[ZahZoo]

In many cases especially in the early years... first 4 records especially... it wasn't just Eddie and Dave sitting the corner composing entire songs. It was the whole band composing, arranging and tweeking. A lot of the material started as a riff and/or chord run then became a jam then morphed into a song structure...

To net it down to Eddie and Dave diminishes the contributions of the band as a complete unit... which is how they operated until Ed built 5150 and holed up in his own space. This is why I believe all 4 nutjobs had writing credits/publishing rights. I honestly believe Mike and Al contributed a hell of a lot more to the overall Van Halen sound and compositions then they are given credit for...

The whole was greater than the sum of the parts...

[Seshmeister]

By 1984 at the very least the grey area is Alex although they could claim that he contributed during jams with Ed at 5150.

Obviously Monk was there and we weren't but I think Mike made a reasonable decision and in his (usually very unfashionable) shoes I think I would have done the same thing.

He's in a massively successful band, he has publishing rights to 6 albums which he didn't write, your band turn around and point this out and say it has to stop as it's unfair and it should only be the first 5. At that point he has 2 options take the money and run or stay in the band and stop taking money for stuff you aren't doing.

To this day Michael Antony has a 25% writing ownership on Eruption, it's really not unreasonable that he shouldn't on Jump.

Mike will have recieved tens of thousands of dollars for this recently, the exact same amount that Ed made so you can understand how that could be a little irritating to EVH...

[Seshmeister]

I honestly believe Mike and Al contributed a hell of a lot more to the overall Van Halen sound and compositions then they are given credit for...

The whole was greater than the sum of the parts...

Without looking it up to get the exact definitions, my understanding of the legal position of song writing publishing in popular/rock music is that it consists of 3 aspects.

Music
Words
The core(vocal) melody.

I would guess that most of the input from Mike and Alex for that matter would be more on the arrangement side which doesn't count legally when these things are tested in court. Your interpretation of the song ie. how you play it isn't relevant legally when working out who owns or should be credited with it. By the time of 1984 I don't think Mike was involved in the arrangements even but I wasn't there.

[Nickdfresh]

Really? Like what? What does he disclose that would remotely break a non disclosure agreement?

Nothing really. I do highly doubt Dave had one with Anderson though, I'm not sure they were thinking that far ahead and what is Ed going to say? "Yeah, Dave fucked this broad and did some lines off a dead hooker's ass before we dumped her into the East River?" In reality, I think Dave would have been fine with his security guy regaling the world of his stories of debauchery, unless of course Dave's debauchery included guys or something....

[ZahZoo]

Without looking it up to get the exact definitions, my understanding of the legal position of song writing publishing in popular/rock music is that it consists of 3 aspects.

Music
Words
The core(vocal) melody.

I would guess that most of the input from Mike and Alex for that matter would be more on the arrangement side which doesn't count legally when these things are tested in court. Your interpretation of the song ie. how you play it isn't relevant legally when working out who owns or should be credited with it. By the time of 1984 I don't think Mike was involved in the arrangements even but I wasn't there.

I agree 100% with your legal premise... but aren't we in a court of public opinion, here..?

[Seshmeister]

Just sayin' given in the Minions clip above, we assume at some point Universal phone up Eddie Van Halen to try and get permission for the clip of Eruption in the movie. Note that they will almost certainly have paid a studio musician to rerecord it in order to avoid the performance fee so it's only going to be a publishing royalty. When Ed said yes he then has to wait to see if Mike agrees to it as well. This of course is no Sly Stone or even Kings X situation where the people involved are in any way short of cash but you know that's going to bug him.

Given the context, the renegotiated deal that Antony was part of with WB and everything else I do find it impossible to get too concerned about him being pressured to sign away his payment for writing something he didn't.

Even a broken bunch of assholes is correct some of the time.

As rock n roll financial hard luck stories go, there are 10 000 cases ahead of this one...

[Nitro Express]

In many cases especially in the early years... first 4 records especially... it wasn't just Eddie and Dave sitting the corner composing entire songs. It was the whole band composing, arranging and tweeking. A lot of the material started as a riff and/or chord run then became a jam then morphed into a song structure...

To net it down to Eddie and Dave diminishes the contributions of the band as a complete unit... which is how they operated until Ed built 5150 and holed up in his own space. This is why I believe all 4 nutjobs had writing credits/publishing rights. I honestly believe Mike and Al contributed a hell of a lot more to the overall Van Halen sound and compositions then they are given credit for...

The whole was greater than the sum of the parts...

Yeah I doubt Ed sat down and wrote the notation for all three instruments and handed Mike and Al the sheet music. Ha! Ha!

[Nitro Express]

The contract Mike was locked into said he got a 1/5 share. All band members and the manager got an equal cut. Mike was locked into getting his share and signed it away. It was pretty simple with no consideration of publishing and all that.

[Terry]

In many cases especially in the early years... first 4 records especially... it wasn't just Eddie and Dave sitting the corner composing entire songs. It was the whole band composing, arranging and tweeking. A lot of the material started as a riff and/or chord run then became a jam then morphed into a song structure...

To net it down to Eddie and Dave diminishes the contributions of the band as a complete unit... which is how they operated until Ed built 5150 and holed up in his own space. This is why I believe all 4 nutjobs had writing credits/publishing rights. I honestly believe Mike and Al contributed a hell of a lot more to the overall Van Halen sound and compositions then they are given credit for...

The whole was greater than the sum of the parts...

I think Mike probably was active on the arranging and tweaking in the CVH days. Far as the composing went, from what Ed and Mike both said in interviews at the time, Mike was basically more often than not free to play what he wanted to unless Ed had a specific bass line in mind.

The whole WAS greater than the sum of its parts, to be sure. Doubtless, plenty of stuff came out of Ed and Al jamming. Keep in mind, though, that Ed was coming up with the bulk of the music (sometimes resultant from jamming with Al, or Al and Anthony, at which point Anthony would play as a reaction to what Ed was doing) and Dave was coming up with the lyrics and melodies. THAT is what I'm referring to when I say that Ed and Dave were the nucleus of the band far as composing went, not that Dave and Ed worked together, completed the music and melodies THEN told Al and Mike to add whatever they were doing to it.

Far as credit given, for the majority of the CVH era the publishing royalties were an even split, so I tend to think Al and Mike were given enough credit where it counted (their bank accounts) at the time far as their contributions went.

When I listen to the band, I'm always aware of all the instruments/voices. I'd agree 100% it took those four specific guys and their specific skill sets to make the band sound like it did. Seems like a self-evident thing to say - because it is in a sense - but when people were speculating about Billy Sheehan potentially replacing Anthony in 2005 and wouldn't that be a great band, I didn't share that opinion. Not as far as the CVH material went. I never listened to the material and thought "Van Halen would be so much greater if only they had a better bass player" or anything along those lines. Mostly because Eddie was doing so much guitar-wise the band didn't NEED some guy soloing Sheehan-style on the bass.

I wouldn't necessarily put Alex Van Halen in my bullshit Top Ten Rock Drummers Of All Time list, but I really enjoyed what he did with Van Halen...and just like with Anthony, what Alex did just fit.

[chuckjitsu]

I thought when Mike signed the paperwork circa '84, it was all inclusive, meaning he signed away his rights all the way back to VH I AND going forward from 1984. That's how I interpreted it in Monk's book. Is that not correct? As for him catching shit for not writing, it seemed like the understood dynamic was that Ed wrote all the music, in every era from Dave through Cherone. I just don't remember reading anything about Mike bringing riffs or ideas in on his own, being encouraged to do so, or what happened if/when he did bring in some ideas. Other than being Ed's brother, I'm not seeing what Al did to deserve a full cut either. In all that time, Mike never came up with an interesting bass line on his own by just jamming or goofing around? I get that the guy wasn't a virtuoso level talent like Ed, but he was a solid musician, so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't willing or capable to do something other than just wait for Ed to come up with a riff and just work off of that.

That of course begs the question of "if he was capable and willing, then why didn't he bring ideas to the table then?" That's a fair question and I don't have an answer for that or what he did relative to writing. I just find it hard to believe that he wasn't at least capable of bringing something to the table other than a knife and fork.

[vandeleur]

Mikes input was probably equal to his solo output

[So this is love]

You guys are amazing, I cant even recall whatever I read in Circus and Guitar Player back in the days... thanks for the memories...Its always great to have a couple of drinks and read about VH. RNR! ....Oh! lol and I should mention I did not have time to read the book yet.

[Full Bug]

Mikes input was probably equal to his solo output

I have never picked up an instrument in my life, so I know squat, but when Ed played, wouldn't Mike have wrote and played the bass lines while jamming? And if so, doesn't that count as writing, of course not to the same extent as Ed, but just the same?

[vandeleur]

I have never picked up an instrument in my life, so I know squat, but when Ed played, wouldn't Mike have wrote and played the bass lines while jamming? And if so, doesn't that count as writing, of course not to the same extent as Ed, but just the same?

Only if you believe bass is an actual instrument , I was just chumming the water to get donniep to bite

[Terry]

I thought when Mike signed the paperwork circa '84, it was all inclusive, meaning he signed away his rights all the way back to VH I AND going forward from 1984. That's how I interpreted it in Monk's book. Is that not correct? As for him catching shit for not writing, it seemed like the understood dynamic was that Ed wrote all the music, in every era from Dave through Cherone. I just don't remember reading anything about Mike bringing riffs or ideas in on his own, being encouraged to do so, or what happened if/when he did bring in some ideas. Other than being Ed's brother, I'm not seeing what Al did to deserve a full cut either. In all that time, Mike never came up with an interesting bass line on his own by just jamming or goofing around? I get that the guy wasn't a virtuoso level talent like Ed, but he was a solid musician, so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't willing or capable to do something other than just wait for Ed to come up with a riff and just work off of that.

That of course begs the question of "if he was capable and willing, then why didn't he bring ideas to the table then?" That's a fair question and I don't have an answer for that or what he did relative to writing. I just find it hard to believe that he wasn't at least capable of bringing something to the table other than a knife and fork.

I'm sure Anthony must have had some ideas at some point.

Like, did he come up with the RWTD bass intro? Sure, that is as basic as it comes in terms of technique, but whenever Mike played those 8 open low E notes live, the crowd went nuts. Did Mike come up with that intro, or did Ed tell him to do that? Who knows? What about the bass intro and the rest of the Push Comes To Shove track? Was that something Mike came up with, or did Ed tell him what to play? Or did Ed actually play the bass tracks on Fair Warning (as sometimes rumored)?