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Thread: Trump Formally Under Investigation for Obstruction of Justice

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    Trump Formally Under Investigation for Obstruction of Justice

    Special counsel is investigating Trump for possible obstruction of justice, officials say

    By Devlin Barrett, Adam Entous, Ellen Nakashima and Sari Horwitz June 14 at 6:21 PM

    The special counsel overseeing the investigation into Russia’s role in the 2016 election is interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination of whether President Trump attempted to obstruct justice, officials said.

    The move by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III to investigate Trump’s conduct marks a major turning point in the nearly year-old FBI investigation, which until recently focused on Russian meddling during the presidential campaign and on whether there was any coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Investigators have also been looking for any evidence of possible financial crimes among Trump associates, officials said.

    [Here’s what we know so far about Team Trump’s ties to Russian interests]

    Trump had received private assurances from then-FBI Director James B. Comey starting in January that he was not personally under investigation. Officials say that changed shortly after Comey’s firing.

    Five people briefed on the interview requests, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, said that Daniel Coats, the current director of national intelligence, Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency, and Rogers’s recently departed deputy, Richard Ledgett, agreed to be interviewed by Mueller’s investigators as early as this week. The investigation has been cloaked in secrecy, and it is unclear how many others have been questioned by the FBI.
    A guide to the five major investigations of the Trump campaign’s possible ties to Russia View Graphic

    The NSA said in a statement that it will “fully cooperate with the special counsel” and declined to comment further. The office of the director of national intelligence and Ledgett declined to comment.

    The White House now refers all questions about the Russia investigation to Trump’s personal attorney, Marc Kasowitz.

    “The FBI leak of information regarding the president is outrageous, inexcusable and illegal,” said Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Kasowitz.

    The officials said Coats, Rogers and Ledgett would appear voluntarily, though it remains unclear whether they will describe in full their conversations with Trump and other top officials or will be directed by the White House to invoke executive privilege. It is doubtful that the White House could ultimately use executive privilege to try to block them from speaking to Mueller’s investigators. Experts point out that the Supreme Court ruled during the Watergate scandal that officials cannot use privilege to withhold evidence in criminal prosecutions.

    The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9, according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate that his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

    [Inside Trump’s anger and impatience — and his sudden decision to fire Comey]

    The interviews suggest that Mueller sees the question of attempted obstruction of justice as more than just a “he said, he said” dispute between the president and the fired FBI director, an official said.

    Investigating Trump for possible crimes is a complicated affair, even if convincing evidence of a crime were found. The Justice Department has long held that it would not be appropriate to indict a sitting president. Instead, experts say, the onus would be on Congress to review any findings of criminal misconduct and then decide whether to initiate impeachment proceedings.

    Comey confirmed publicly in congressional testimony on March 20 that the bureau was investigating possible coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

    Comey’s statement before the House Intelligence Committee upset Trump, who has repeatedly denied that any coordination with the Russians took place. Trump had wanted Comey to disclose publicly that he was not personally under investigation, but the FBI director refused to do so.

    Soon after, Trump spoke to Coats and Rogers about the Russia investigation.

    Officials said one of the exchanges of potential interest to Mueller took place on March 22, less than a week after Coats was confirmed by the Senate to serve as the nation’s top intelligence official.

    Coats was attending a briefing at the White House with officials from several other government agencies. When the briefing ended, as The Washington Post previously reported, Trump asked everyone to leave the room except for Coats and CIA Director Mike Pompeo.

    Coats told associates that Trump had asked him whether Coats could intervene with Comey to get the bureau to back off its focus on former national security adviser Michael Flynn in its Russia probe, according to officials. Coats later told lawmakers that he never felt pressured to intervene.

    A day or two after the March 22 meeting, Trump telephoned Coats and Rogers to separately ask them to issue public statements denying the existence of any evidence of coordination between his campaign and the Russian government.

    Coats and Rogers refused to comply with the president’s requests, officials said.

    It is unclear whether Ledgett had direct contact with Trump or other top officials about the Russia probe, but he wrote an internal NSA memo documenting the president’s phone call with Rogers, according to officials.

    As part of the probe, the special counsel has also gathered Comey’s written accounts of his conversations with Trump. The president has accused Comey of lying about those encounters.

    Mueller is overseeing a host of investigations involving people who are or were in Trump’s orbit, people familiar with the probe said. The investigation is examining possible contacts with Russian operatives as well as any suspicious financial activity related to those individuals.

    Last week, Comey told the Senate Intelligence Committee that he had informed Trump that there was no investigation of the president’s personal conduct, at least while he was leading the FBI.

    Comey’s carefully worded comments, and those of Andrew McCabe, who took over as acting FBI director, suggested to some officials that an investigation of Trump for attempted obstruction may have been launched after Comey’s departure, particularly in light of Trump’s alleged statements regarding Flynn.

    “I took it as a very disturbing thing, very concerning, but that’s a conclusion I’m sure the special counsel will work towards, to try and understand what the intention was there, and whether that’s an offense,” Comey testified last week.

    Mueller has not publicly discussed his work, and a spokesman for the special counsel declined to comment.

    Accounts by Comey and other officials of their conversations with the president could become central pieces of evidence if Mueller decides to pursue an obstruction case.

    Investigators will also look for any statements the president may have made publicly and privately to people outside the government about his reasons for firing Comey and his concerns about the Russia probe and other related investigations, people familiar with the matter said.

    Comey testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee last week that he was certain his firing was due to the president’s concerns about the Russia probe, rather than over his handling of a now-closed FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server as secretary of state, as the White House had initially asserted. “It’s my judgment that I was fired because of the Russia investigation,” Comey said. “I was fired, in some way, to change — or the endeavor was to change the way the Russia investigation was being conducted.”

    The fired FBI director said ultimately it was up to Mueller to make a determination whether the president crossed a legal line.

    In addition to describing his interactions with the president, Comey told the Intelligence Committee that while he was FBI director he told Trump on three occasions that he was not under investigation as part of a counterintelligence probe looking at Russian meddling in the election.

    Republican lawmakers seized on Comey’s testimony to point out that Trump was not in the FBI’s crosshairs when Comey led the bureau.

    After Comey’s testimony, in which he acknowledged telling Trump that he was not under investigation, Trump tweeted that he felt “total and complete vindication.” It is unclear whether McCabe, Comey’s successor, has informed Trump of the change in the scope of the probe.

    Washington Post
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    When a pResident does it, it is NOT illegal!
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    According to VOX.com, Mueller has assembled an experienced team of "heavy-hitters" against Trump's scrub council that makes typos. And in addition to OOJ, Mueller may be looking into money laundering conducted by Trump's election team...

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    Trump will fire Mueller before long.

    I'm not going to say I have a crystal ball on this, but Trump fears his finances/tax returns being exposed, and Mueller has carte blanche to investigate whatever he wants to, which could possibly include Trump's various business dealings around the world.

    The idea that Trump will let Mueller head an open-ended investigation, with no constraints... I don't see this arrangement lasting for long.
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    Pence is reportedly lawyering up as well, so they might try to dump him, Spiro Agnew style, before officially beginning the ImOrangement. Which raises the question.... who the fuck would be Cheeto's version of Jerry Ford (no relation)???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Trump will fire Mueller before long.

    I'm not going to say I have a crystal ball on this, but Trump fears his finances/tax returns being exposed, and Mueller has carte blanche to investigate whatever he wants to, which could possibly include Trump's various business dealings around the world.

    The idea that Trump will let Mueller head an open-ended investigation, with no constraints... I don't see this arrangement lasting for long.
    He may well, but that could lead to an even worse alternative of an Independent Council and an even more damning obstruction of justice investigation. Slow poison or a shotgun?..

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    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...01471999864833

    The Donald confirms he's under investigation, and his lawyers are upping their pill count:

    I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 06-16-2017 at 11:31 AM.

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    Speculation is he's throwing Rosenstein under the bus. Probably asked Bannon & Sessions for advice and they told him "blame the Jew".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    He may well, but that could lead to an even worse alternative of an Independent Council and an even more damning obstruction of justice investigation. Slow poison or a shotgun?..

    Nixon jettisoned Cox precisely because he recognized he had a binary choice: do nothing and watch the investigation slowly but inevitably work its way to the center, or do something to thwart it. Ineffective in the end, but probably prolonged Nixon's WH life by several months more than it would have otherwise.

    It's a simple lesson. Simple enough for even Trump's WH associates to recognize that and learn from it. Simple enough for even Trump to recognize it. Not that the circumstances between then and now are more similar than not, but you couple that with what was remembered from the Clinton investigations and how what ended up getting the impeachment proceedings started had nothing to do with what got the intitial special investigations going...Trump's going to have to do something beyond tweeting "Mueller = Fake News. Sad!" to try and stop the investigations before they wander afield of the Russian involvements with the Trump campaign and into various Trump/Kushner real estate business dealings around the world (starting with various Russians and providing linkage with the Trump campaign irregularities: the types of people they did business with, the exposure of how much money there was involved and where it went.

    And a simple question arises from all this: if there was nothing to the Russian contacts, why did those affiliated with Trump fail to disclose or "forget" the contacts and meetings? Sessions in his second Congressional inquiry - after having lied in the first - gave a bunch of "I don't know" and "I can't remember" answers. Kushner failed to disclose his meetings when applying for his security clearance. Kushner has degrees in government and law, so what was HIS excuse for the failure of disclosure? That, like his father-in-law, he was also new to all of this? Flynn, we now know, was known to have been compromised from the get-go by the Obama administration, who informed Trump of this, and Trump went and brought him aboard anyway. Why does Flynn need immunity if there was nothing improper in what he did?

    Why is Pence lawyering up? Last I knew, his name wasn't publicly exposed as one of those who was in contact with the Russians during the campaign and the transition.

    Why did Trump ask everybody to leave the room (Sessions twice) to have a one-on-one with Comey? Why did Trump state that he hoped Comey could see his way to clear letting the Flynn matter go? Are Trump's defenders really believing that since Trump didn't specifically ask Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn, therefore Trump's wording exonerates him from trying to obstruct justice? Trump saying to Russian officials in the White House that the firing of Comey was an end to the pressure of Comey's investigation...I mean, obstruction doesn't get much clearer than that.

    None of the above passes the smell test. I can understand people lawyering up. One would have to be foolish not to do so even if innocent. All of the evasions on disclosures of the meetings, Session's non-operative 'recusal' and Flynn's immunity request...the odd comments of Trump during the campaign inviting Russians to hack the DNC e-mails followed by the WikiLeaks release of the same in fairly short order...Manafort...

    I mean, I suppose Trump could somehow end up surviving all of this. He ran a totally off-the-wall campaign and managed to prevail despite (or is it because of) a million things he did and said that would have knocked any one of the other 16 GOP candidates or Clinton out of the race. Like some kind of 1980s slasher flick killer, Trump has managed to be indestructible so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Speculation is he's throwing Rosenstein under the bus. Probably asked Bannon & Sessions for advice and they told him "blame the Jew".
    "No, no, Mr.President, not your liberal globalist son-in-law...the OTHER Jew."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Pence is reportedly lawyering up as well, so they might try to dump him, Spiro Agnew style, before officially beginning the ImOrangement. Which raises the question.... who the fuck would be Cheeto's version of Jerry Ford (no relation)???
    Well, I would have thought Pence would have been able to have stepped into the Presidency in a way that Agnew couldn't...I mean, whatever one wants to say about Ford's intellect or the mindset that Nixon chose Ford as a guarantee against impeachment, another part of that reasoning is that Ford in 1973 was well-thought of by his Congressional colleagues on both sides of the aisle, thus he would have a quick, non-contentious confirmation.

    When I try to think who Trump would get to replace Pence if he were dumped that has all the attributes of Ford...I mean, who?

    Newt Gingrich?

    Rudy "I was the Mayor of New York on 9/11" G?

    Jabba the Christie?

    Mitt Romney?

    Maybe Romney, if it has to be out of those 4.

    I mean, outside of those 4 (3 of whom are, to my mind, near-certifiable loons), you don't exactly see a headlong rush of competent, qualified people beating a path to the White House to serve in the Trump Administration. Understandably so: who willingly signs up to work with a radioactive shit sandwich? Trump would probably end up choosing someone already in his Cabinet, being that they all publicly profess to still be honored to serve in his administration.

    Vice-President Carson?

    Omarosa?

    Daffy Duck?

    Who the fuck knows...

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    Donald Trump Is Proving Too Stupid to Be President

    “You know, I’m, like, a smart person.” Uh huh.
    --Getty Images

    Donald Trump Is Proving Too Stupid to Be President

    I’m starting to suspect that Donald Trump may not have been right when he said, “You know, I’m like a smart person.” The evidence continues to mount that he is far from smart — so far, in fact, that he may not be capable of carrying out his duties as president.

    There is, for example, the story of how Trump met with the pastors of two major Presbyterian churches in New York. “I did very, very well with evangelicals in the polls,” he bragged. When the pastors told Trump they weren’t evangelicals, he demanded to know, “What are you then?” They told him they were mainline Presbyterians. “But you’re all Christians?” he asked. Yes, they had to assure him, Presbyterians are Christians. The kicker: Trump himself is Presbyterian.

    Or the story of how Trump asked the editors of the Economist whether they had ever heard of the phrase “priming the pump.” Yes, they assured him, they had. “I haven’t heard it,” Trump continued. “I mean, I just … I came up with it a couple of days ago, and I thought it was good.” The phrase has been in widespread use since at least the 1930s.

    Or the story of how, after arriving in Israel from Saudi Arabia, Trump told his hosts, “We just got back from the Middle East.”

    These aren’t examples of stupidity, you may object, but of ignorance. This has become a favorite talking point of Trump’s enablers. House Speaker Paul Ryan, for example, excused Trump’s attempts to pressure FBI Director James Comey into dropping a criminal investigation of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn on the grounds that “the president’s new at this” and supposedly didn’t realize that he was doing anything wrong. But Trump has been president for nearly five months now, and he has shown no capacity to learn on the job.

    More broadly, Trump has had a lifetime — 71 years — and access to America’s finest educational institutions (he’s a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, he never tires of reminding us) to learn things. And yet he doesn’t seem to have acquired even the most basic information that a high school student should possess. Recall that Trump said that Frederick Douglass, who died in 1895, was “an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more.” He also claimed that Andrew Jackson, who died 16 years before the Civil War, “was really angry that he saw what was happening in regard to the Civil War.”

    Why does he know so little? Because he doesn’t read books or even long articles. “I never have,” he proudly told a reporter last year. “I’m always busy doing a lot.” As president, Trump’s intelligence briefings have been dumbed down, denuded of nuance, and larded with maps and pictures because he can’t be bothered to read a lot of words. He’d rather play golf.

    The surest indication of how not smart Trump is that he thinks his inability or lack of interest in acquiring knowledge doesn’t matter.


    The surest indication of how not smart Trump is that he thinks his inability or lack of interest in acquiring knowledge doesn’t matter. He said last year that he reaches the right decisions “with very little knowledge other than the knowledge I [already] had, plus the words ‘common sense,’ because I have a lot of common sense and I have a lot of business ability.”

    How’s that working out? There’s a reason why surveys show more support for Trump’s impeachment than for his presidency. From his catastrophically ill-conceived executive order on immigration to his catastrophically ill-conceived firing of Comey, his administration has been one disaster after another. And those fiascos can be ascribed directly to the president’s lack of intellectual horsepower.

    How could Trump fire Comey knowing that the FBI director could then testify about the improper requests Trump had made to exonerate himself and drop the investigation of Flynn? And in case there was any doubt about Trump’s intent, he dispelled it by acknowledging on TV that he had the “Russia thing” in mind when firing the FBI director. That’s tantamount to admitting obstruction of justice. Is this how a smart person behaves? If Trump decides to fire the widely respected special counsel Robert Mueller, he will only be compounding this stupidity.

    Or what about Trump’s response to the June 3 terrorist attack in London? He reacted by tweeting his support for the “original Travel Ban,” rather than the “watered down, politically correct version” under review by the Supreme Court. Legal observers — including Kellyanne Conway’s husband — instantly saw that Trump was undermining his own case, because the travel ban had been revised precisely in order to pass judicial scrutiny. Indeed, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in refusing to reinstate the travel ban on June 12, cited Trump’s tweets against him. Is this how a smart person behaves?

    You could argue that Trump’s lack of acumen is actually his saving grace, because he would be much more dangerous if he were cleverer in implementing his radical agenda. But you can also make the case that his vacuity is imperiling American security.

    Trump shared “code-word information” with Russia’s foreign minister, apparently without realizing what he was doing. In the process, he may have blown America’s best source of intelligence on Islamic State plots — a top-secret Israeli penetration of the militant group’s computers.

    Trump picked a fight on Twitter with Qatar, apparently not knowing that this small, oil-rich emirate is host to a major U.S. air base that is of vital importance in the air war against the Islamic State.

    Trump criticized London’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, based on a blatant misreading of what Khan said in the aftermath of the June 3 attack: The mayor had said there was “no reason to be alarmed” about a heightened police presence on the streets — not, as Trump claimed, about the threat of terrorism. In the process, Trump has alienated British public opinion and may have helped the anti-American Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, win votes in Britain’s general election.

    Trump pulled out of the Paris climate accord apparently because he thinks that global warming — a scientifically proven fact — is a hoax. His speech announcing the pullout demonstrated that he has no understanding of what the Paris accord actually is — a nonbinding compact that does not impose any costs on the United States.

    Trump failed to affirm Article V, a bedrock of NATO, during his visit to Brussels, apparently because he labors under the misapprehension that European allies owe the United States and NATO “vast sums of money.” In fact, NATO members are now increasing their defense spending, but the money will not go to the United States or to the alliance; it will go to their own armed forces. Trump has since said he supports Article V, but his initial hesitation undermines American credibility and may embolden Russia.

    Trump supporters used to claim that sage advisors could make up for his shortcomings. But he is proving too willful and erratic to be steered by those around him who know better. As Maggie Haberman of the New York Times notes: “Trump doesn’t want to be controlled. In [the] campaign, [he] would often do [the] opposite of what he was advised to do, simply because it was opposite.”

    The 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that if the vice president and a majority of the cabinet certify that the president is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office,” he can be removed with the concurrence of two-thirds of both houses. That won’t happen, because Republicans are too craven to stand up to Trump. But on the merits perhaps it should. After nearly five months in office, Trump has given no indication that he possesses the mental capacity to be president.

    FOREIGN POLICY.COM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Well, I would have thought Pence would have been able to have stepped into the Presidency in a way that Agnew couldn't...I mean, whatever one wants to say about Ford's intellect or the mindset that Nixon chose Ford as a guarantee against impeachment, another part of that reasoning is that Ford in 1973 was well-thought of by his Congressional colleagues on both sides of the aisle, thus he would have a quick, non-contentious confirmation.

    When I try to think who Trump would get to replace Pence if he were dumped that has all the attributes of Ford...I mean, who?

    Newt Gingrich?

    Rudy "I was the Mayor of New York on 9/11" G?

    Jabba the Christie?

    Mitt Romney?

    Maybe Romney, if it has to be out of those 4.

    I mean, outside of those 4 (3 of whom are, to my mind, near-certifiable loons), you don't exactly see a headlong rush of competent, qualified people beating a path to the White House to serve in the Trump Administration. Understandably so: who willingly signs up to work with a radioactive shit sandwich? Trump would probably end up choosing someone already in his Cabinet, being that they all publicly profess to still be honored to serve in his administration.

    Vice-President Carson?

    Omarosa?

    Daffy Duck?

    Who the fuck knows...
    Ford was more than just the kindly old goofball who stumbled down the stairs all the time. He was basically a "fixer" for the BCE. First notably deployed on the Warren Commission to make sure that ended up with the outcome that certain people wanted, then the Nixon pardon. And of course there's also the fact that he appointed Rummy & Cheney to his cabinet, and promoted Poppy Bush to the head of the CIA. It was no random accident that Jerry was chosen to finish Nixon's term, and just as likely that it was also by design that not a whole lot of effort was put into keeping him in office after 1976.

    In that context, I don't know of anyone within the Trump circle who fits the same criteria, but if you consider the Koch Brothers being the ones pulling Pence's strings, then they would want him replaced with another one of their own. John Kasich or (God help us all) Scott Walker would fit this description, as they have served the Koch machine as loyally as Jerry Ford served the BCE. Christie would also fit this description, but given the bad blood between him and Jared Kushner (for putting his daddy in prison) he's never going to be Cheeto's veep and eventual replacement.
    Last edited by FORD; 06-17-2017 at 12:31 PM.

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    Donald Ghey Trump has the best brain


    So quit making fun of him.
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    He forgot being too dumb to get his own name as a Twitter ID, hence "The Real Donald Trump", or the 7-second attention span ala NATO...

    Covfefe!!!

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    Don't worry..... the religious reich wackjobs will make sure that JESUS prevents the ImOrangement from happening!!



    Apparently the angel who was supposed to "edit" Jeff Sessions comments was on vacation that day....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    Ford was more than just the kindly old goofball who stumbled down the stairs all the time. He was basically a "fixer" for the BCE. First notably deployed on the Warren Commission to make sure that ended up with the outcome that certain people wanted, then the Nixon pardon. And of course there's also the fact that he appointed Rummy & Cheney to his cabinet, and promoted Poppy Bush to the head of the CIA. It was no random accident that Jerry was chosen to finish Nixon's term, and just as likely that it was also by design that not a whole lot of effort was put into keeping him in office after 1976.

    In that context, I don't know of anyone within the Trump circle who fits the same criteria, but if you consider the Koch Brothers being the ones pulling Pence's strings, then they would want him replaced with another one of their own. John Kasich or (God help us all) Scott Walker would fit this description, as they have served the Koch machine as loyally as Jerry Ford served the BCE. Christie would also fit this description, but given the bad blood between him and Jared Kushner (for putting his daddy in prison) he's never going to be Cheeto's veep and eventual replacement.

    Well, if one views Ford as part of the WH enabler continuum for the deviate elite who run the world - a belief system I don't necessarily completely disagree with - much of what you said about Ford makes sense in retrospect.

    At the time, though, Ford wasn't nearly as important or powerful on the Warren Commission as Dulles or Russell (and I think the Commission outcome in terms of the ultimate conclusion, that being Oswald was the lone shooter and also acted alone, was correct). In 1974, Rummy and Cheney didn't have some 30 year plan in place re: global neoconservative goals. In the mid 1970s, Poppy Bush wasn't looked upon as a politician with a presidency in his future. He barely managed to win a Congressional seat in Texas, lost a Senate race and was more of an appointed GOP hack than anyone who had a track record of ever winning elections on his own. Also, back then, heading the CIA in the wake of the various mid 1970s Congressional investigations and revelations of what that agency had been up to was looked upon as, if anything, something that would have disqualified Bush from a future in elective politics. As to the Nixon pardon, I don't think Ford was ever put into the VP slot with any explicit instructions regarding a quid pro quo re: a Nixon pardon, nor was there a similar arrangement when Nixon was on the eve of resigning (the presidency was never Nixons to keep or to conditionally give away). I think Nixon was hopeful that Ford would pardon him out of what was believed to be (regardless of one's personal agreement with it or not) Ford's general sense of decency, because prior to 1973 Nixon and Ford didn't have a decades-long close friendship of any kind that could have offered Nixon a certainty of expectations in terms of Ford treating Nixon a certain way.

    I mean, the BCE belief system is certainly an explanation to a point, but I'm not going to jump into it as wholeheartedly as you have, Ford. Simply because I can't...I don't read history quite the same way. That isn't to say you're wrong, though.

    Scott Walker. Fuck me, that lipless little ignoramus gives me the creeps. And Kasich only seemed an acceptable alternative in 2016 when contrasted to the rest of the GOP presidential field: by those diminished standards, doubtless Kasich seemed wise and statesmanlike.

    Yeah, even if Kushner gets swamped in legal problems, doubtless he'll continue to hold influence with Trump. By far, Trump's favorite family member is his daughter. Being that Trump would clearly (and creepily) like to screw her, I suppose he publicly professes his support for Kushner as a way of having sex with Ivanka vicariously through Kushner. I mean, there's no dark humor in any of what I just said regarding Donald wanting to have sex with his daughter. His body language and comments toward and about her and his lack of a moral compass all lead me to honestly believe he'd fuck her if he could get away with it. Mostly because she IS his daughter, and he loves nobody more than himself, so it would make sense the only person he might love as much as himself is a child who is the result of half of him.

    Like, the only daughter he could want to have sex with more than Ivanka is a genetically created daughter spawned in a Trump gold-plated laboratory that was ENTIRELY the result of Donald's genes.
    Last edited by Terry; 06-17-2017 at 08:02 PM.

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    Meet Cheeto's new lawyer.... Pat Robertson's puppet Jay Sekulow.


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    Sekulow covfefe! LOL

    This assclown against Muller's gang, LMFAO....

    Trump's hair will look good in an orange jumpsuit...

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    And when Jay isn't stirring up religious reich bullshit on behalf of Pat Robertson, he pretends to be a musician.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Sekulow covfefe! LOL

    This assclown against Muller's gang, LMFAO....

    Trump's hair will look good in an orange jumpsuit...

    I know the Hitler thing is always overused but there comes a point that you become thankful for the inepititude of some hellish leaders because when things start to unravel it starts really working against them.
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    I know the Hitler thing is always overused but there comes a point that you become thankful for the inepititude of some hellish leaders because when things start to unravel it starts really working against them.
    Frankly, I have more respect for Hitler's accomplishments in terms of his early years up to 1933 than I do those of Trump in his formative years.

    Hitler literally came from next to nothing, scrapped for all he had, fought bravely with distinction in war, joined a lesser political party and transformed it into the main political party in his country, and was elected Chancellor.

    Trump was born into a wealthy family, was given everything he had, dodged the draft, took over a hollowed-out political party...I suppose he deserves some degree of credit for being elected President.

    I will say both Hitler and Trump knew and know how to throw very...energetic political rallies. Beyond that, Hitler, once elected, wasn't shy about doing what was necessary to grab the reins of power and install himself as the Grand Supreme Leader of Germany Forever (or at least 1945, whichever came first). To be fair, Germany in the early 1930s wasn't really comparable to present-day America in terms of political structure, but as a President thus far "bumbling" is the word that comes to mind when thinking about Trump.

    Now, to Trump's credit, he hasn't yet tried to exterminate an entire race of people. So, clearly Trump has a ways to go re: reaching the level of a Hitler.

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    LOL lazy post by me.

    What I was trying to say and it's the subject of a time travel novel called Making History by Stephen Fry whereby in some ways there comes a point when you are thankful that the guy is nuts or wicked because in my optimistic moments it makes me feel that not being a cunt is an advantage in the long run.
    In the novel going back and stopping Hitler becomes a terrible idea because a slightly less bad guy comes to power instead and wins WWII.

    All of this is hyperbole of course comparing Hitler to Trump but I just meant that although it can be bewildering, worrying and infuriating that he makes ridiculous decisions, tells blatant lies and is making so many mistakes, the positive is that he will do this when defending himself as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    LOL lazy post by me.

    What I was trying to say and it's the subject of a time travel novel called Making History by Stephen Fry whereby in some ways there comes a point when you are thankful that the guy is nuts or wicked because in my optimistic moments it makes me feel that not being a cunt is an advantage in the long run.
    In the novel going back and stopping Hitler becomes a terrible idea because a slightly less bad guy comes to power instead and wins WWII.

    All of this is hyperbole of course comparing Hitler to Trump but I just meant that although it can be bewildering, worrying and infuriating that he makes ridiculous decisions, tells blatant lies and is making so many mistakes, the positive is that he will do this when defending himself as well.
    Is this sort of analogous to a hypothetical scenario of Trump being removed from office and subsequently Pence - generally thought of as less crazy than Trump - going on to start WWIII because God told him to do so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    LOL lazy post by me.

    What I was trying to say and it's the subject of a time travel novel called Making History by Stephen Fry whereby in some ways there comes a point when you are thankful that the guy is nuts or wicked because in my optimistic moments it makes me feel that not being a cunt is an advantage in the long run.
    In the novel going back and stopping Hitler becomes a terrible idea because a slightly less bad guy comes to power instead and wins WWII.

    All of this is hyperbole of course comparing Hitler to Trump but I just meant that although it can be bewildering, worrying and infuriating that he makes ridiculous decisions, tells blatant lies and is making so many mistakes, the positive is that he will do this when defending himself as well.
    Someone recently said something along the lines of being thankful that Trump and his Administration are turning out to be so incompetent, because otherwise they could actually cause some real damage. My thought to that was just give it some more time. I wouldn't put so much as even odds on Trump actually being removed from office right now, and even should that come to pass, short of a massive bombshell that is impeccably illustrated with evidentiary documentation...the impeachment process will probably take at least a couple of years. A lot can happen in that time.

    I mean, look at Trump's 2016 campaign: rife with ridiculous decisions, blatant lies and seemingly one mistake piled on top of another - he won the election. To be sure, a whole host of reasons (many of which were in place before Trump even declared his candidacy) went into that victory...but Trump just defies conventional political belief. I loathe the guy, and even I can't deny that he pulled off something that was as stunning as it was stupefying.

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    I think the biggest worry is that frustrated at not being able to achieve anything domestically because of checks and balances he goes to the stuff where he actually does have a lot of power and starts playing with your military...

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    Well.... it worked for Chimpy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    I think the biggest worry is that frustrated at not being able to achieve anything domestically because of checks and balances he goes to the stuff where he actually does have a lot of power and starts playing with your military...
    Like I said, this guy could do a lot of damage while not getting a single thing done on his domestic agenda.

    I'm not some bed-wetting peacenik who is 100% opposed to military actions against Iran or North Korea should it come to pass that all other options have been exhausted.

    However, I'd want the Commander-In-Chief who ultimately makes those decisions to be a level-headed, clear-minded person who doesn't have manifest problems with their temperament and isn't impulsive...stressing in particular the last two qualities, neither of which Trump displays...ever.

    You take Assad, Putin, Jong-un, Rouhani and Trump: mixing those 5 personalities together doesn't give me a lot of positive feelings. I mean, it's a shame out of those 5 that I rank Trump close to the bottom of the list - just a notch above Jong-un - in terms of personality types I would trust NOT to blow up the world, if solely out of a sense of self-preservation if not anything else. And I derive no pleasure stating how emotionally, intellectually and mentally unfit I think my President is.

    To the contrary, I'm embarrassed and ashamed this man is my President.
    Last edited by Terry; 06-20-2017 at 10:13 PM.

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    I never used to think anything could be more potentially frightening than the thought of Chimp & Cheney in charge during a "Cuban Missile Crisis" type of situation.

    Somehow they managed to find worse.....

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    Looks like the Georgia boy that you Bernie brats hate so much is going to lose. That alone should cheer you up.

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    Nah, it was like the French election.... neoliberal corporatist hack against a white supremacist nazi lunatic. Nobody wins either way.
    Also, Georgia votes completely on Diebold electro-fraud machines, so there's no way to verify who actually won ANYTHING.

    Though if that fucking bitch actually GAINED votes from this sickening ad, then the people in that district are too goddamned stupid to live....


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    There you go again. You Bernie brats have an EXCUSE for everything

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    I don't have to excuse anything. Mike Malloy actually lives in that district and he's talking about his own personal experience with the fucked up Diebold machines right now.

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    Yeah, uh-huh, "Die Bold"


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