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Thread: Why Van Hagar Pales In Comparison

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD View Post
    I seem to remember the vinyl version of ADKOT selling out within a week or so, and that album barely had any promotion.
    Really?

    I seem to recall quite a bit of promotion for the album and the tour, including (of all things in 2012) commercials on tv in my area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    Holy mother of hell are those lyrics bad.

    Van Hagar was a complete castration of the brilliance of CVH. Even Ed's guitar wizardry couldn't save it.
    True enough, although Ed's shitty synth pop didn't help matters any: guitar wizard but mediocre keyboardist.

    Maybe Sam Halen could have used more tuba...
    Last edited by Terry; 02-22-2023 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Mommy, it hurts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    True enough, although Ed's shitty synth pop didn't help matters any: guitar wizard but mediocre keyboardist.

    Maybe Sam Halen could have used more tuba...
    I was amazed how they managed to sell that many copies though with clearly an inferior to CVH and different product. Sound wise, image wise, everything was different.

    I guess 5150 appealed to a whole new demographic than the original CVH fanbase. But also it sold lots on name only too. Van Halen brand was too hot at the time, especially coming off of 1984.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    I was amazed how they managed to sell that many copies though with clearly an inferior to CVH and different product. Sound wise, image wise, everything was different.

    I guess 5150 appealed to a whole new demographic than the original CVH fanbase. But also it sold lots on name only too. Van Halen brand was too hot at the time, especially coming off of 1984.
    5150 was successful in commercial terms.

    As you say, though, a certain amount of that success was inherited. To be fair, Hagar had just come off his biggest solo success with VOA, which had went platinum. Doubtless in 1986, it'd be reasonable to assume a percentage of the million or so people who bought the VOA album would have an interest in checking out Van Halen with Hagar in it. Van Halen were coming off 1984, which was a huge success. When Roth left, it'd be excessive to believe that everybody who had been a fan of the band prior to Hagar was totally 100% adverse to checking out the band without Dave.

    I think you're right also that the 5150 sound did have an appeal to people who perhaps weren't as huge on Van Halen when Roth was in it...people who really only became aware of the band when Jump as a single had the massive success that it did,

    It was telling that after 5150 each subsequent Van Hagar album sold less than the previous one. That tells me that the longer Hagar stuck around, the less people were interested in the band as the years went by. Contrast that with BOV1, where all it took was a couple new tunes with Roth and the implied promise of a Roth reunion for a greatest hits album to outsell the last studio album Van Halen did with Hagar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Really?

    I seem to recall quite a bit of promotion for the album and the tour, including (of all things in 2012) commercials on tv in my area.
    There was some advertising but my recollection is zero promotion from the band, no TV interviews, no radio interviews, Only a single video with a very small budget and most people think a poor choice.

    Clearly there was a deliberate decision there to avoid any risk of fighting and just get through the tour(s) without it falling to bits.

    In hindsight I think it was was mistake and that they could have stuck Roth out there on the talk shows and Stern and everything without him making a misstep but ADKOT was still a top 10 album in the rock charts at least and the tour is where 95% of the money is these days and they did well on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    The only thing I can remember about the LRHRN album is that their 'live' (apparently much of the album was re-recorded in the studio post-performance...then again, we all know lots of 'live' albums had this same treatment) version of The Who's Won't Get Fooled Again got a decent amount of airplay on the primary local terrestrial rock radio station where I was living at the time [the live album] was initially released, and I remember thinking at the time Van Hagar's version wasn't anything that the world needed to hear. I don't think I've listened to anything else off that album.

    I do remember renting the live home video release from the FUCK tour around that same period, watching it once and not being able to get to the end of it because it was boring.

    It was right around that point, somewhere between FUCK and Balance, that I finally gave up on Van Halen coming up with the goods while Hagar was in the band. I had given the first three studio albums with Hagar each a fair listen, because I figured even with Dave gone 3/4's of the band SHOULD be able to come up with something on an instrumental level that moved me as much as what the band did on those first 6 classic albums. When I was so huge into the band when Dave was in it, probably 75% of that was due to what Eddie was doing.

    The whole band got lazy after Dave left. Ed didn't have anybody to push him anymore. Thus, the reasons why Van Hagar didn't work...it wasn't entirely Sammy's fault. Not to me. Often, people say that they'd be interested in hearing what Dave could have done with the Van Hagar instrumental tracks as recorded. Not me. I'd be interested in some of those instrumental tracks being through a rehearsal/production process with Roth and Ted and refined.

    But, yeah, when Balance rolled around, I think I heard the album once from start-to-finish...heard the singles off it once or twice. No longer gave a shit. Van Halen for me had tanked...well, really, they had tanked for me when Dave left. Commercially, they tanked when Cherone joined, but that Sam Halen stuff seems even more of it's time (as opposed to timeless) these days than it did when it was initially released.

    CVH resonates more strongly with me as the years go by.

    Only test that matters: the test of time.
    In summary: What Dave brought to the band extended far beyond his 25% of the song contribution. You can feel it in the tone of the music.
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    Sam posted something recently talking about how his new song "Father Time" is his "masterpiece."

    Now, my first inkling is to ask: when has the artist himself ever described his own work as a masterpiece? That would seem to defeat the whole idea. It's just like Sam wishing himself a Happy Birthday. I've noticed that as the Van Halen gang distanced themselves more and more from Hagar after 2004, he's promoted his brand to extremist levels. Even posting videos of himself from a far away car filming semi-trucks carrying his Cabo Wabo Margarita mix. At best its narcissistic and at worst it's borderline psychotic behavior. It's like he's trying to compensate for the fact that nobody in the VH camp ever talks about him anymore or acknowledges his mediocre songs ever existed.

    I was also pleasantly surprised at the level of leeway the Brothers gave Roth in the later years, given all of the mudslinging throughout the years. Things like letting him pick Kool & The Gang, to the video segments they did, the stage design, ADKOT album cover, Stay Frosty and Honeybaby were Dave's ideas, etc... Ed seemed to at least respect Dave's dedication to the art of the music compared to Hagar's businessman approach.

    "With Hagar, it's all about the money." -Eddie. Even he figured it out by the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    There was some advertising but my recollection is zero promotion from the band, no TV interviews, no radio interviews, Only a single video with a very small budget and most people think a poor choice.

    Clearly there was a deliberate decision there to avoid any risk of fighting and just get through the tour(s) without it falling to bits.

    In hindsight I think it was was mistake and that they could have stuck Roth out there on the talk shows and Stern and everything without him making a misstep but ADKOT was still a top 10 album in the rock charts at least and the tour is where 95% of the money is these days and they did well on that.
    The entire period Roth was back in the band from 2006-2015 [Roth] gave comparatively few interviews than he had before and after that period. It did kind of seem at times that perhaps that was a strategic choice in order to prevent and acrimony between Roth and the rest of the band.

    I dunno...I kinda dug what they did with the Cafe Wha? gig in terms of promotion, by letting the music do most of the talking. As you say, though, the tour was where the money was and by 2012 Van Halen didn't really need much by way of promotion to sell out an arena tour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshmeister View Post
    There was some advertising but my recollection is zero promotion from the band, no TV interviews, no radio interviews, Only a single video with a very small budget and most people think a poor choice.

    Clearly there was a deliberate decision there to avoid any risk of fighting and just get through the tour(s) without it falling to bits.

    In hindsight I think it was was mistake and that they could have stuck Roth out there on the talk shows and Stern and everything without him making a misstep but ADKOT was still a top 10 album in the rock charts at least and the tour is where 95% of the money is these days and they did well on that.



    She's The Woman also had a video. Pretty low budget too. Simple live performance videowith ad graphics in the middle of the solo.
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    I've wondered if the cooperative interaction with Roth and the Van Halens during the 2006-2015 era was more of a situation where the adults chose to behave in front of the kid scenario... or... more likely the kid was the only "adult" in the equation and influenced the adults to stay in line...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    I've wondered if the cooperative interaction with Roth and the Van Halens during the 2006-2015 era was more of a situation where the adults chose to behave in front of the kid scenario... or... more likely the kid was the only "adult" in the equation and influenced the adults to stay in line...
    Perhaps that was the case.

    But I always thought due to the years of the highly publicized breakups and previous reunion attempts I think Dave and Van Halens agreed that they just simply go out and play. Let the music and the shows do the talking. At that point they really didn't need to promote themselves like the early days. They knew that all they had to do was throw out the tour dates and ticket sale times and thats it.

    I recall Rolling Stone wanted to do a cover story on them with a new photoshoot in 2008 but VH declined.

    Of course they wouldve been asked about all kinds of things that they likely didn't want to address - like Dave's return; Mike's removal and Wolf taking on bass duties; Ed's current state of health etc.
    Last edited by Vinnie Velvet; 02-24-2023 at 10:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    Perhaps that was the case.

    But I always thought due to the years of the highly publicized breakups and previous reunion attempts I think Dave and Van Halens agreed that they just simply go out and play. Let the music and the shows do the talking. At that point they really didn't need to promote themselves like the early days. They knew that all they had to do was throw out the tour dates and ticket sale times and thats it.

    I recall Rolling Stone wanted to do a cover story on them with a new photoshoot in 2008 but VH declined.

    Of course they wouldve been asked about all kinds of things that they likely didn't want to address - like Dave's return; Mike's removal and Wolf taking on bass duties; Ed's current state of health etc.
    Plus, the pre-tour press conference answered most of those questions and tour rehearsal footage and the first gigs uploaded via fan shot footage answered any questions over if the band could still get it up.

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    One noteworthy element that just dawned on me... 2006-2015 era was unique in that it was the first time in the 40 year history of the band where sobriety was predominately the normal mode of operation for the band members rather than a very rare exception. That in and of itself can account for the lack of bullshit behaviors and personality issues that governed those bozos...

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    I don't believe Ed was truly sober until 2012-2015. I don't think Dave has ever been truly sober. Dave just prefers different products for self medication. As socially acceptable as alcohol is, EVH was living proof of exactly how destructive it can be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZahZoo View Post
    One noteworthy element that just dawned on me... 2006-2015 era was unique in that it was the first time in the 40 year history of the band where sobriety was predominately the normal mode of operation for the band members rather than a very rare exception. That in and of itself can account for the lack of bullshit behaviors and personality issues that governed those bozos...
    But perhaps at the price of a dip in creativity and belligerent enthusiasm...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    I don't believe Ed was truly sober until 2012-2015. I don't think Dave has ever been truly sober. Dave just prefers different products for self medication. As socially acceptable as alcohol is, EVH was living proof of exactly how destructive it can be.
    I think Dave is a moderate drinker and with the exception of his coke habit, probably imbibed quite a bit less even at the height of CVH circa 1981-85. Noel Monk had his complaints about Roth as a band member and overall person. But he was also the first to say that Dave was business first and was the guy that loved schedules, plans, and structure as opposed to the Bros., Dave's fear of flying notwithstanding. Roth did his share of drugs and booze, but he was also running six miles a day around 83'-85' and cycling everywhere...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    5150 was successful in commercial terms.

    As you say, though, a certain amount of that success was inherited. To be fair, Hagar had just come off his biggest solo success with VOA, which had went platinum. Doubtless in 1986, it'd be reasonable to assume a percentage of the million or so people who bought the VOA album would have an interest in checking out Van Halen with Hagar in it. Van Halen were coming off 1984, which was a huge success. When Roth left, it'd be excessive to believe that everybody who had been a fan of the band prior to Hagar was totally 100% adverse to checking out the band without Dave.

    I think you're right also that the 5150 sound did have an appeal to people who perhaps weren't as huge on Van Halen when Roth was in it...people who really only became aware of the band when Jump as a single had the massive success that it did,

    It was telling that after 5150 each subsequent Van Hagar album sold less than the previous one. That tells me that the longer Hagar stuck around, the less people were interested in the band as the years went by. Contrast that with BOV1, where all it took was a couple new tunes with Roth and the implied promise of a Roth reunion for a greatest hits album to outsell the last studio album Van Halen did with Hagar.
    It's been covered here before, but been a long while. Did Dave make any money off 5150? No question at least a part of that album has Dave on it and three songs were allegedly almost complete with demos with Dave singing prior to his departure and Ed burned everything...

    I would also add that any Van Halen I debut album featuring Hagar would have been an extension of his Montrose work, maybe a bit superior and selling a bit better. But it would NOT have gone Diamond status without Diamond Dave! Montrose's debut album is just barely Platinum, with a lot of that coming in the decades after release by word-of-mouth of diehard classic rock fans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    I don't believe Ed was truly sober until 2012-2015. I don't think Dave has ever been truly sober. Dave just prefers different products for self medication. As socially acceptable as alcohol is, EVH was living proof of exactly how destructive it can be.
    Ed was fucked up on something at the show I saw in 2008.

    His playing was solid for the first 6 tunes then slowly went downhill, with plenty of errant notes that jarred the ear. Keeping in mind that the band by Tampa were...what, 50 shows into the tour, playing basically the same set night after night.

    By the time his solo spot came late in the show, he was sweating and unsteady on his feet and couldn't play Eruption properly. It was all blown up on the giant video screen for all to see and there was a palpable silence on the part of the audience, to the point where I could literally hear people sitting near me remarking aloud that Eddie looked wasted. I obviously couldn't say with certainty, but Eddie appeared drunk.

    It came off like Eddie had a buff and shine stint in rehab in the spring of 2007 but a year on had relapsed.

    2012, though, Eddie was spot-on. He played wonderfully. Shouldn't really be a point of compliment that Ed was managing to play all the CVH material flawlessly - wouldn't that be the minimum of expectations one had of him as a fan? - but honestly after what he demonstrated in 2004 and 2008 just him being able in 2012 to get back to that CVH level of performance was cause for celebration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Halen View Post
    I don't think Dave has ever been truly sober.
    I agree that Dave always seems like he's on something. Always.
    Early on that was probably part of his shtick. As much as I love him it gets/got old real fast.
    Could be it's all he knows and it's worked for him all these years but really
    "skiddley scoobeyu diddly do boop" just doesn't cut it anymore.
    You have fans. Give us something...
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    Dave is a major weed smoker. What he really got high on was his own bullshit. He’s living in his bubble fantasy like the rest of the has beens in LA. Dave is a nut job. It was entertaining for awhile.
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    The magic died in 1985. Everything became goofy after that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
    I agree that Dave always seems like he's on something. Always.
    Early on that was probably part of his shtick. As much as I love him it gets/got old real fast.
    Could be it's all he knows and it's worked for him all these years but really
    "skiddley scoobeyu diddly do boop" just doesn't cut it anymore.
    You have fans. Give us something...
    Or he's not on something, medication for AADHD..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    Dave is a major weed smoker. What he really got high on was his own bullshit. He’s living in his bubble fantasy like the rest of the has beens in LA. Dave is a nut job. It was entertaining for awhile.
    Think it was shortly after the BBQ vid was out there that Dave's interview schtick started to wear thin for me. I couldn't even make it through a full broadcast of his brief talk radio stint, much less the hour + podcast interviews on shows where he was a guest years later.

    Entertaining as an interview subject in the 1980s and 1990s, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Express View Post
    The magic died in 1985. Everything became goofy after that.
    Terms of Roth, his post EEAS stuff - even as far as the studio albums went - was a bit hit or miss for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Terms of Roth, his post EEAS stuff - even as far as the studio albums went - was a bit hit or miss for me.
    Although, disclaimer: all I care about Van Halen is EVH guitar playing. Dave post six pack has not much interest for me... IMHO, and I like EEAS but I must admit Skyscraper had some great songs on it.
    Hey Jackass! You need to [Register] or log in to view signatures on ROTHARMY.COM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Think it was shortly after the BBQ vid was out there that Dave's interview schtick started to wear thin for me. I couldn't even make it through a full broadcast of his brief talk radio stint, much less the hour + podcast interviews on shows where he was a guest years later.

    Entertaining as an interview subject in the 1980s and 1990s, though.
    Diamond Dave was not a character you could take past middle age. Add in the end of spandex rock when grunge came in. Add in a huge ego, a bipolar personality, insecurities and crazy randomness and you have a bit of a mess. I think reality being the key word here. Most of us have to live there. Apparently Dave does not.

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    Not sure why all the ragging on Dave is coming from but there were tons of great music, shows and moments during Dave's solo career.

    The EEAS show I saw was one of the best rock concerts I've ever been to. Dave delivered big time. Much better than what he did on the '84 tour.

    When Dave started playing regular gigs again in 1999 he was great IMO. The hair thing you could tell he struggled with throughout as it was a big part of his image. Easier for the rest of us non-celeb types who can just shave it all off. But he tried to contain whatever he could. Sometimes it looked ok other times not.

    And when Dave wore slacks and a dress shirt with short hair in '94, people were like "what happened to Dave??" By 2002, he was back wearing bell bottomed spandex and suspenders. Then people started saying he was "stuck in the 80s".

    Whatever Dave did or tried during the solo years he couldn't win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by So this is love View Post
    Although, disclaimer: all I care about Van Halen is EVH guitar playing. Dave post six pack has not much interest for me... IMHO, and I like EEAS but I must admit Skyscraper had some great songs on it.
    First time around with Roth, when Roth was with the band up until 1984, probably 75% of the draw of Van Halen for me was EVH's guitar playing. I thought Dave was perfect for the band back then, but Eddie was the main draw for me.

    It was that mindset that left me initially open to checking out the band with Hagar; while I didn't want Roth to leave and was a bit bummed out the split happened, I didn't automatically think Van Halen without Roth would become as useless for me as it did because Eddie was still in the band.

    Yep. Fuckin' way wrong there, wasn't I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    Not sure why all the ragging on Dave is coming from but there were tons of great music, shows and moments during Dave's solo career.

    The EEAS show I saw was one of the best rock concerts I've ever been to. Dave delivered big time. Much better than what he did on the '84 tour.

    When Dave started playing regular gigs again in 1999 he was great IMO. The hair thing you could tell he struggled with throughout as it was a big part of his image. Easier for the rest of us non-celeb types who can just shave it all off. But he tried to contain whatever he could. Sometimes it looked ok other times not.

    And when Dave wore slacks and a dress shirt with short hair in '94, people were like "what happened to Dave??" By 2002, he was back wearing bell bottomed spandex and suspenders. Then people started saying he was "stuck in the 80s".

    Whatever Dave did or tried during the solo years he couldn't win.
    Some of the solo albums/solo projects I really enjoyed. Others didn't work as well for me. I will say it was a varied solo career stylistically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Some of the solo albums/solo projects I really enjoyed. Others didn't work as well for me. I will say it was a varied solo career stylistically.
    DLR Band was awesome. "Going Places", "Black Sand", "Relentless". Lots of great songs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    DLR Band was awesome. "Going Places", "Black Sand", "Relentless". Lots of great songs.
    It was, indeed.

    Shame only Slam Dunk got a live workout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie Velvet View Post
    DLR Band was awesome. "Going Places", "Black Sand", "Relentless". Lots of great songs.
    Dave hired the best hot shots he could find and it worked out real well. To this day Billy Sheehan, Steve Vai and Gregg Bissonette are all friends which is really cool because bands are notorious for people not getting along. All those guys said they had a blast working with Dave.

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    Eat ‘Em and Smile was the pinnacle of 80’s spandex rock. Ha! Ha!

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    Well Sammy still lingers. I had to go to LA for business and I was driving down Sunset and The Whiskey was advertising a Sammy Hagar jam night. A bunch of different musicians were going to play all Sammy songs.

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    Yeah, well, since 1996 Hagar has been out there hustling his (shudder) 'brand'...guy has a reputation for being easygoing/not difficult to work with and has a solid work ethic.

    Doubtless, he needed to do all those things because just his music and name as a solo act post-Van Halen was only gonna get so many tickets sold. I can't say cultivating that Jimmy Buffettesque rock and roll beach bum image wasn't a smart move for Hagar; derivative and cheesy as it comes off to me, apparently some people like it.

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