Fuck You Ed

[MasonL]

I hear this argument a lot that "it was all about Eddie" so it didn't matter who the singer was. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the golden days of Van Halen, Roth was the point guard. He was the one who kept everybody bought in and focused on the mission. Ed was incredibly insecure who falsely thought he could lead a band. He has one specialty and he does a hell of a job at that. He should've stuck to being one of the greatest instrumentalists in the history of the sport. His little makeshift home studio ruined the Classic Van Halen.

I always thought that a big reason why Ed never wanted to work with Dave again until 2007 was because he would have to compete again. He couldn't just order the singer around like he tried to do after 1985 and eventually did with Cherone. Or that the music would be so good that it would make him look like a fool for ever calling it "Van Halen" without Dave.

All in all, just a lot of wasted years and opportunity to become one of THE greatest bands ever - they still are in my opinion - but the average listener just lumps VH in with the Def Leppards, Motley Crue's and Poison's of the world. That's a shame because the real lineup was legitimately one of the greatest ever. By the time they got Dave back in '07 they were just a nostalgia act.

[MasonL]

But I'll throw a fuck Dave in too. That dumbass has never been able to get out of his own way. He could have been more humble in 1996. He could have done more, much more, to make 2007 on more productive and better quality. Especially from 2012 on.

Dave certainly could have made some more reasonable and restrained decisions throughout his career, but then he wouldn't be himself. I think if he had stuck with Vai/Sheehan for much longer he could have stabilized his solo career and would've maintained some popularity throughout much of the 90's. But it's not really in his wiring to be businesslike. He really just makes decisions on a whim and then later figures out what his goal is.

At least he was being true to himself for the most part. Unlike a certain singer, who just does whatever will make him money at the end of the day. Selling out. You have songs about "sex without love" and then two tracks later a song about spank lines. You have "Good Enough" and then "Not Enough." You have "Dreams" and then "The Dream is Over." Just total cash grab/whatever is popular now mindset. There's no vision there.

[Terry]

I don't have to psycho-analyze a person to appreciate a certain talent they have. I want to be entertained. I could care less about the inner drama or what a person eats for breakfast. I think there's two kinds of fans. Ones who buy the product and others who obsess over their idols to unhealthy levels.

For me, Ed entertained me and I appreciated his talent. Do I obsess over it? Nope. Ed is dead. The cigarettes and unhealthy lifestyle shortened his life. No surprise. There isn't anything left of the old Van Halen that interests me. It's finished.

It was always that thing since 1996, trying to figure out what was going on behind the scenes, trying to figure out the personalities offstage, trying to figure out why it went wrong and who was to blame. As if even knowing any of that would make a difference anyway re: Van Halen doing or not doing whatever.

Ed had a great talent that entertained. I suppose it was because he and Van Halen entertained me beginning at an age when was young enough to still buy into those rock star celebrity myths. I guess it is part of getting older and the perspective that comes with that...I guess it's difficult to realize your childhood or teenaged heroes are only human but doing so is only natural and healthy.

I still like the music, which in the end is all that ever mattered all along, really.

[Nitro Express]

It was always that thing since 1996, trying to figure out what was going on behind the scenes, trying to figure out the personalities offstage, trying to figure out why it went wrong and who was to blame. As if even knowing any of that would make a difference anyway re: Van Halen doing or not doing whatever.

Ed had a great talent that entertained. I suppose it was because he and Van Halen entertained me beginning at an age when was young enough to still buy into those rock star celebrity myths. I guess it is part of getting older and the perspective that comes with that...I guess it's difficult to realize your childhood or teenaged heroes are only human but doing so is only natural and healthy.

I still like the music, which in the end is all that ever mattered all along, really.

Oh people thought Ed had a magic black box in the day. Now you can read and watch interviews with people who worked on Ed’s equipment and knew him. Nothing magical about any of his stuff. People drove the prices of Sylvania 6CA7 tubes thinking they would give you the magic sound. Ed used them because they lasted longer. His favorite tube to use was the Telefunken EL34 but EL34’s aren’t very robust and not the best to use in a amp turned to 10 and expected to work through a few live shows.

Anyways Ed’s tone is a Super Distortion pickup into a Echoplex preamp into the Tebble High Gain input on a 1967 Marshall Super Lead 100 head into a Marshal 4x12 cab with two JBL D120 speakers and two Celestion greenback speakers. For effects it’s a script Phase 90, MXR Flanger, Univox tape delay, echoplex tape delay set to a short slap back delay.

That’s the classic VH formula and unless you wrangle the strings like him you ain’t going to sound like him. But that was his rig. Oh and he did drop the amps voltage to around 89 volts with an Ohmite variance. Makes the amp a tad quieter and gives it more sag.

[Terry]

Oh people thought Ed had a magic black box in the day. Now you can read and watch interviews with people who worked on Ed’s equipment and knew him. Nothing magical about any of his stuff. People drove the prices of Sylvania 6CA7 tubes thinking they would give you the magic sound. Ed used them because they lasted longer. His favorite tube to use was the Telefunken EL34 but EL34’s aren’t very robust and not the best to use in a amp turned to 10 and expected to work through a few live shows.

Anyways Ed’s tone is a Super Distortion pickup into a Echoplex preamp into the Tebble High Gain input on a 1967 Marshall Super Lead 100 head into a Marshal 4x12 cab with two JBL D120 speakers and two Celestion greenback speakers. For effects it’s a script Phase 90, MXR Flanger, Univox tape delay, echoplex tape delay set to a short slap back delay.

That’s the classic VH formula and unless you wrangle the strings like him you ain’t going to sound like him. But that was his rig. Oh and he did drop the amps voltage to around 89 volts with an Ohmite variance. Makes the amp a tad quieter and gives it more sag.

When I first started learning the instrument in the early 80's at a young age, I'd read articles and interviews in Guitar Player and later Guitar World where Ed would sort of detail the specs of what he was using. Back in my first few years of playing before I got a decent guitar and decent amp, I figured Ed must have all this customized equipment to get that "Brown Sound". After a few years when I got a decent guitar and a decent amp and some decent DOD stomp boxes, I could fiddle about with the tone controls on the amp and the effects pedals and get a good tone.

Same as today, where my primary electric is a 1990 Charvel San Dimas with one double-coil stock San Dimas pickup in the bridge and a single volume knob. My Peavey Transtube Blazer 158 is just a 15 Watt amp with reverb (I sold off my Marshalls in the early 90's when I stopped playing in bands). I've got a Pro Co Rat distortion pedal, an MXR Distortion + pedal, an MXR Phase 90 along with a BOSS Digital Delay and Boss Flange Shifter. Between all that stuff, which is just fairly basic electric guitar equipment, I can fiddle around and get a tone close enough to what Ed was getting to my ears.

It's exactly as you said, in that unless you knew what he was doing with his hands - and that was far more important than his gear - you could play with all the most expensive official EVH high-end equipment there is and you're not going to sound like him. Even beyond that, though, how far does one want to go to approximate what Eddie was doing? People paying $20k or whatever for one of those Franky replicas...

There's only one Eddie Van Halen. Even the most accurate EVH clone is still an EVH clone.

[Nitro Express]

You can get a good Eddie vibe through all sorts of stuff. Also a big half stack is going to sound better in a bigger room. In a household bedroom you are going to get a better sound through a smaller amp. I got a decent Ed vibe running a Bogner La Grange overdrive into a Phase 90 into a MXR EQ into a battery powered pig nose. I ran a Kramer 84 guitar through that rig.

[Nitro Express]

Some say entertainers are born and not made. I think that’s true. Eddie had all the gifts to be a top notch rock and roll entertainer. I know he down played the rock star thing but he definitely had the stage magic. Also he hated doing the rock talk schtick and he let Dave do that. But because Ed wasn’t on the television shows and radio shows bullshitting it made him more of a mystery. Ed was like a mad scientist and you couldn’t wait to see or hear what he conjured up next. Early VH just had the perfect ingredients and watch Mike during those early shows. He had the stage magic as well.

[Nitro Express]

Matt Bruck said Eddie's 5150 guitar was a great sounding and playing guitar. He said it was light which is interesting because it has a Pacer body and those were maple. I have a Pacer and it's heavy. Anyways it obviously was a great guitar because Eddie wore the thing out playing it. I have two similar guitars with the big hockey stick headstock. I find the extra mass on the end of the neck gives both guitars more sustain and resonance. But I gravitate to those quite a bit. They play and sound great and a Kramer is just a comfy guitar to wear, especially with an Italian leather strap. I have an EVH pickup in one guitar and a custom EVH pickup I had Seymour Duncan wind for me. I put the EVH volume pots in them which are real smooth for doing the volume knob swells. No EVH stripes. Not my thing. One has a swirl paint job and the other has a few pinup girls on it. One has spinning propellers on her tits and she's riding a bomb. WWII stuff but it's cool.

[ZahZoo]

From a gear perspective... you can only get so close in replicating a certain instrument to a degree, but it's impossible to mass produce it. Pretty much an 80/20 endeavor... you can get 80% of the way there with the same woods, electronics and build specs.

But that 20% is what eludes a true replication... that one slab of wood from a tree grown in a specific location/year and pissed on by Yogi bear every October before hibernation in the 1950's... the tiny variation of each component in the signal chain... how much dog piss was distributed on the bottom speakers in a cabinet... where it was recorded... the relative humidity, temperature and moon phase the day it was recorded... how much Schlitz Malt liquor was spilled on the maple neck... then the final element... the hands, bone density, relative hydration and intoxication levels, and chest resonance of the player...

[Terry]

From a gear perspective... you can only get so close in replicating a certain instrument to a degree, but it's impossible to mass produce it. Pretty much an 80/20 endeavor... you can get 80% of the way there with the same woods, electronics and build specs.

But that 20% is what eludes a true replication... that one slab of wood from a tree grown in a specific location/year and pissed on by Yogi bear every October before hibernation in the 1950's... the tiny variation of each component in the signal chain... how much dog piss was distributed on the bottom speakers in a cabinet... where it was recorded... the relative humidity, temperature and moon phase the day it was recorded... how much Schlitz Malt liquor was spilled on the maple neck... then the final element... the hands, bone density, relative hydration and intoxication levels, and chest resonance of the player...

Bear piss and moon phases...

I fuckin' KNEW Eddie was bullshitting us about all the 'Variac' nonsense all along!!!

I would have never guessed -or even considered - bear piss and moon phases, though. I just assumed he sprinkled Frosted Lucky Charms cereal dust on his gear.

[Vinnie Velvet]

Some say entertainers are born and not made. I think that’s true. Eddie had all the gifts to be a top notch rock and roll entertainer. I know he down played the rock star thing but he definitely had the stage magic. Also he hated doing the rock talk schtick and he let Dave do that. But because Ed wasn’t on the television shows and radio shows bullshitting it made him more of a mystery. Ed was like a mad scientist and you couldn’t wait to see or hear what he conjured up next. Early VH just had the perfect ingredients and watch Mike during those early shows. He had the stage magic as well.

Eddie didn't want to be a rock star, however, just on his looks alone and the way his presence was on stage he became just that. And when you have Dave choreographing stage moves and what not you have the recipe of a superstar rock band.

And thats what they were. I know I rag on Mike but his presence complimented well with the showmanship of Dave and Ed.

[Terry]

Ed wanted to be a rock star.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Eddie claimed otherwise for decades.

Considering how he utilized his musical ability (playing clubs in search of a record deal, posing for promotional pictures to be published in magazines covering rock music), that claim was just bunk.

Ed wanted to be a rock star without necessarily having to contend with all the trappings of being a rock star. That's totally understandable.

But he wanted to be a rock star. No mistake about that.

[Vinnie Velvet]

Ed wanted to be a rock star.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Eddie claimed otherwise for decades.

Considering how he utilized his musical ability (playing clubs in search of a record deal, posing for promotional pictures to be published in magazines covering rock music), that claim was just bunk.

Ed wanted to be a rock star without necessarily having to contend with all the trappings of being a rock star. That's totally understandable.

But he wanted to be a rock star. No mistake about that.

Ok I can buy that.

More Ed lies lol.

He of course engaged in all the excess of a rock star (groupies - pre Val but most likely even during their marriage; drug use etc)

[Terry]

Ok I can buy that.

More Ed lies lol.

He of course engaged in all the excess of a rock star (groupies - pre Val but most likely even during their marriage; drug use etc)

I mean, Ed became a rock star because he deserved to be. There's no doubt about that, either. He became a rock star because of his musical ability and not some non-musical bullshit hype.

He wanted to be recognized for his musicianship in the genre of rock music.

You don't sign a record deal with a major label and expend the effort to play to as many people as possible because you don't want to be a rock star.

It was always silly on the face of it for Ed to claim otherwise, because it was inherently self-evident.

[Nitro Express]

It’s only rock and roll. Look. Eddie Van Halen and most the people who made a living in his profession aren’t exactly the most stable people in the world. You actually have to take what these people say with a huge grain of salt. You are talking about people who go from rehab center to rehab center. Break down to break down and between trips to the counselor and shrink they stick explosives up the cat’s ass. They get away with it because the cops are fans.

[Nickdfresh]

What? Me trolling? I would never. I would really never troll NickDishonorabledischarge.

Nope. You wouldn'tt know what a DD214 is Vonpussybiotchfaggotloserwhoneverservedanythingbut atrumpcockdownhisthroat. Neither of mine say that, and that's a bit defamatory and there ain't no "dis" in 'em. I guess being a social degenerate gambling douche that catches social diseases like HepAIDS (then runs around calling everyone else drunks) would preclude you from serving though. A few of my more hotheaded veteran friends would take great exception at you disparaging one. Especially coming from a dickhead that has never served anything but hotdogs up his asshole...

Just a word of warning....

[Nickdfresh]

I know you all are just trolling each other but me, difficult is just crazy talk? I've always been the lukewarm water

The DDLR going on too long but also not going on long enough is a complicated and not very interesting story but I can confirm as I'm sure Nick actually knows that Von didn't erase it. We just got to a point where it was going to cost too much. The only surprising/disappointing thing for me about it was how many people didn't just come back here for whatever reason. Anyhoo keep the thread back on topic...

Von only trolls for boys cocks.

You can "confirm" all you want, but I can confirm that Von is a fucking retard and makes really stupid comments when he's drunk. It also is telling no one from there wants to come here. Maybe they're all on Von's Facebook page sharing recipes and stories about how gay Dave is?

[Nickdfresh]

It seems like Ed was always a dick to Mike, or thought very little of him. That 82 interview showed that as did the Billboard one in 2015 or whenever it was. Mike’s vocals were a HUGE part of their overall sound and none of their songs would be as great as they are if he was missing, it was shitty how Ed tried to minimize Mike’s input. When Ed knew he was dying, HE should have been the one reaching out to make amends. So to some extent, yes, fuck EVH.

I cunt believe I agree with Bleater, but there is some truth to this. Yeah Mike soils himself around Hagar a bit, but he ain't a villain here. The biggest means of being a dick to him was reducing him to little more than a contract player as VH reached their zenith on the grounds he wrote little if anything. Okay but, gee, um, Alex? What fucking concept album did he ever write for that cred?

[ZahZoo]

Bear piss and moon phases...

I fuckin' KNEW Eddie was bullshitting us about all the 'Variac' nonsense all along!!!

I would have never guessed -or even considered - bear piss and moon phases, though. I just assumed he sprinkled Frosted Lucky Charms cereal dust on his gear.

Don't forget Eddie boiled his guitar strings... but not just any water could produce that tone. Only Pasadena Pond Scum™ from the city water system in the 70's had the right mineral content to turn his Ernie Ball Super Slinkies into tone magnets!

[Terry]

Don't forget Eddie boiled his guitar strings... but not just any water could produce that tone. Only Pasadena Pond Scum™ from the city water system in the 70's had the right mineral content to turn his Ernie Ball Super Slinkies into tone magnets!

I was going to mention the boiling of his guitar strings thing! Which he may or may not have actually done according to which story you read/believe.

There was also the 'dipping of his pickups in wax' thing or potting the pickups in wax.

Both of which were part of that mystique in the early 1980's as to how Ed got the sound he did, and when you read them in a guitar mag back then along with the variac stuff it seemed like Ed was using this tricked-out gear and secretly conjuring up his sound.

For me, it was always a bit more what he was doing with his hands than the tones he was getting. I enjoyed the way the guitar sounded on those CVH albums, to be sure, but it was what he was actually playing that I was trying to figure out.

[Terry]

It’s only rock and roll. Look. Eddie Van Halen and most the people who made a living in his profession aren’t exactly the most stable people in the world. You actually have to take what these people say with a huge grain of salt. You are talking about people who go from rehab center to rehab center. Break down to break down and between trips to the counselor and shrink they stick explosives up the cat’s ass. They get away with it because the cops are fans.

Most of the people in Ed's profession don't really have much to say worth listening to if they're offstage. Goes for most rock star interviews. May be some things of interest some of these rock musicians say in interviews if they're talking about their take on the band they are in. By and large, once they start talking about any subjects outside of that, there's little to nothing they have to say that you wouldn't hear from any person anywhere else.

[Nitro Express]

Don't forget Eddie boiled his guitar strings... but not just any water could produce that tone. Only Pasadena Pond Scum™ from the city water system in the 70's had the right mineral content to turn his Ernie Ball Super Slinkies into tone magnets!

That was the poor musician’s trick to get the gunk out of the strings and bring some life back to them. Yeah Ed boiled his strings when he was poor but as soon as he was getting advances from Warner Brothers I doubt it.

[Nitro Express]

Ed used Extra Light Fender nickel wounds not Ernie Ball. The Fenders had a bullet shaped end that fit snugly into a Strat trem block. They were designed to help a Strat stay in tune better. Ed was using a Fender Srat tremolo in the early days. Fender still makes those strings with those funky ends.

[Nitro Express]

I was going to mention the boiling of his guitar strings thing! Which he may or may not have actually done according to which story you read/believe.

There was also the 'dipping of his pickups in wax' thing or potting the pickups in wax.

Both of which were part of that mystique in the early 1980's as to how Ed got the sound he did, and when you read them in a guitar mag back then along with the variac stuff it seemed like Ed was using this tricked-out gear and secretly conjuring up his sound.

For me, it was always a bit more what he was doing with his hands than the tones he was getting. I enjoyed the way the guitar sounded on those CVH albums, to be sure, but it was what he was actually playing that I was trying to figure out.

Al told Ed not to divulge too much to the public so Ed would sometimes tell half truths. He did use a Variac but he actually turned the voltage down. He said in an interview he turned the voltage up and would watch the tubes melt. Of course if you turn the voltage up you are going to make the filter caps in the amp explode. Ed also said Jose Arredondo made massive modifications to his amp. Jose did do mods and became famouse for it but Ed’s amp never was modded. Jose’s would do maintenance and repair work on it. He was struggling so Ed put his name out there to help him out. Soon after Jose’s was backlogged with over a year’s worth of work. Everyone wanted the Jose mod which was basically putting clipping diodes in the preamp.

[Nitro Express]

I would say the biggest factor in sounding like Ed is you have to play like him. If it’s not happening with the strings nothing that comes after matters. What Ed was chasing was getting what he was doing with the strings to come through. He wanted a sensitive pickup and amp. That means a lot of gain. A guy at Sunset Sound said Ed wanted him to play through rig and he go’s see! Everything you do on the fretboard rings out through the speakers. That’s what I’ve been chasing. It was getting the harmonics and subtle tapping to ring out. But you have to be able to get those sounds with the strings first. Ed was really good with his fingers. Most guitarists can’t play Mean Streets. Even Nuno admitted that’s one song he just can’t do.

[Terry]

I would say the biggest factor in sounding like Ed is you have to play like him. If it’s not happening with the strings nothing that comes after matters. What Ed was chasing was getting what he was doing with the strings to come through. He wanted a sensitive pickup and amp. That means a lot of gain. A guy at Sunset Sound said Ed wanted him to play through rig and he go’s see! Everything you do on the fretboard rings out through the speakers. That’s what I’ve been chasing. It was getting the harmonics and subtle tapping to ring out. But you have to be able to get those sounds with the strings first. Ed was really good with his fingers. Most guitarists can’t play Mean Streets. Even Nuno admitted that’s one song he just can’t do.

Some parts of the Mean Streets Intro I can do. The tapped harmonics parts of the intro I can do, mostly because I started with DTNA and the Women In Love intro and the Spanish Fly intro to learn the technique.

The beginning of the intro where he's doing that slap funk bass technique with his thumb and index finger I can't do. I've seen the close-up footage of him doing it and watched other people on youtube who can do it: I understand the physicality of where the thumb and index finger need to be placed on the fretboard, along with the muffling Ed is doing with his left/fretting hand. I simply can't alternate the thumb and index finger quick enough and slap them on the neck precisely enough to make it sound like it should. Nope, not even close.

I should say, though, with the tapped harmonics in general I couldn't figure out how that was done until the late 1990s/early 2000s when tabs came out describing how to do it and I started collecting VH live video boots that showcased Ed's hands close-up. Pinched harmonics and natural plucked harmonics I learned fairly quickly after I started playing, along with finger tapping, but tapped harmonics not so much.

[Nitro Express]

The Mean Streets intro is basically doing bass slap funk on a guitar but to sound like Ed you have to be spot on. I liken it to forging a signature. Everyone is going to slap a bit differently. Also how your guitar is set up is very important. String tension and height play a big factor here.

[Nitro Express]

Ed was a pretty short guy. The first time I saw Van Halen in person I’m like woah, these guys are shorter than I thought they would be. Ed had big strong hands though and really fluid fingers. Not everyone has hands like that so not everyone is going to be able to play like him.

[Seshmeister]

Some parts of the Mean Streets Intro I can do. The tapped harmonics parts of the intro I can do, mostly because I started with DTNA and the Women In Love intro and the Spanish Fly intro to learn the technique.

The beginning of the intro where he's doing that slap funk bass technique with his thumb and index finger I can't do. I've seen the close-up footage of him doing it and watched other people on youtube who can do it: I understand the physicality of where the thumb and index finger need to be placed on the fretboard, along with the muffling Ed is doing with his left/fretting hand. I simply can't alternate the thumb and index finger quick enough and slap them on the neck precisely enough to make it sound like it should. Nope, not even close.

I should say, though, with the tapped harmonics in general I couldn't figure out how that was done until the late 1990s/early 2000s when tabs came out describing how to do it and I started collecting VH live video boots that showcased Ed's hands close-up. Pinched harmonics and natural plucked harmonics I learned fairly quickly after I started playing, along with finger tapping, but tapped harmonics not so much.

Yeah the rhythm of it is what defeated me back when I used to sit trying to do these things.

Back almost 20 years ago now (how can it be that long???) I asked Brian Young about how he had nailed it and he said it took him a couple of weeks but I don't know what that means - is that 8 hours a day for a couple of weeks or 10 minutes a day?

Nowadays we have stuff like this on YouTube and it makes me think I could maybe eventually get there with the help of it but who has the time?

[Rikk]

On 10-6-2020 I considered saying the same thing, pretty much "fuck you, Ed" for foisting Hagar on us. I deleted what I typed and posted this instead:





I did say somewhere that there is no God, because if there was, He would have taken Hagar before Ed.

Can't believe I missed your original post. YES, there was a silver lining to the sad news about Ed.

That said, it's ok...Eddie appears to Sammy in dreams now with riffs and songs...thank God their "great partnership" can cuntinue...

[Rikk]

Brett is the biggest bitch on the internet. NOBODY sucks off Clichegar more than Brett. He should have changed the name of that shithole to the Van Hagar Links, years ago. He will be more sad when Clichegar croaks, than he was when Ed croaked.

I actually came here in 2004 because I was posting some truly non-combative posts about not being happy with the state of Van Halen. I thought it was a cheap compromise to bring Hagar back on board...at the time, I was more passionate than I became later about Roth finally coming back. And, out of nowhere, Brett jumped out himself and told me to shut the fuck up or he would kick me off the Links permanently. You know, ALL CAPS and lots of !!!!s. He was like a mad dog in heat.

MAX messaged me and told me to check out the Army. He said, "You can say what you want there." I came over here and was much happier.

I had some good conversations about VH at the Links in my early times there...but every other thread was "This is off-topic; closing" or "Stop arguing, fellows or I'll ban you." The place fucking sucked.

Brett used to come over here when he was bored (which for a while was quite frequent).

The guy was a fucking cunt.

I have no idea what drama happened with DDLR, this place, etc. I was off-the-radar too long and missed it.

I enjoy coming back and posting time to time...I'll never stop doing that.

At least I know I can say what the fuck I want here and not worry about getting "banned"...and if I were banned, who gives a fuck? I have a family and a nice big house and fuck it all... But I like posting here. If I hear things about some war that happened or something, I'm usually out-to-lunch. I haven't been involved in a big flame war since me and several others were fighting the great fight against FABULOUS SHADOW in all her fatness...(ah, good times)