The LBJ / Biden Parallels Are Not A Good Sign

[Seshmeister]

He is just wrong about vaccines.

He is just wrong about Kerry actually winning the 2004 election - fucking crazy.

He has this weird idea about anti-depressants and school shootings that there is no evidence for.

The water is making kids gay.

I really don't think the CIA killed his uncle but whatever. The thing about the JFK conspiracy thing is that if you jump onto one of the conspiracy theories then you have to admit that about 1800 other conspiracy theories are wrong.

330 million people jesus is this the best we can do?

Von's post there is just the social media binary bullshit. None of these people are great they never were. It's just about voting for the least bad one and when you do that remembering you aren't voting for your new best friend or person you get to fuck you are voting for the person least likely to make your life worse.

[Seshmeister]

I don’t know. I feel like he’s just gaslighting America into getting on board with being at war with a larger nuclear power.

Are you saying that we should bend the knee to any country that has nuclear weapons and do what they say?

Fuck that. If that's what you want to do then you should just cancel the whole US military completely - what's the point in any of it and spend all those the billions on something else like universal healthcare and a big fucking statue of Putin.

[DLR Bridge]

No, of course not. It’s all a way more complicated mess than I could ever sort out, but I do agree with whomever said, “America has Russia in a headlock while Russia has a gun to America’s head.” How do you see this ending, Sesh?

[DLR Bridge]

330 million people jesus is this the best we can do?

342 million, but who’s counting? Lol. Believe me, you’ll get no argument from me. It’s completely unfair that this is who we have to choose from. I’m only taking a hard look at RFK because I want a 3rd God Damn option, if not a 4th, 5th and 6th.

[DLR Bridge]

No, not really. Firstly, the US and Europe GUARANTEED the Ukraine security after they relinquished their nuclear weapons in the 1990's. After the fall of the USSR, the Ukraine was the world's THIRD largest nuclear power with full arsenals of ICBMS, SLBMs, tactical and air nukes. They gave up the big stuff willingly but wanted to hang on to some tacticals in case just such a cunt as Putin came to power. But we pressured them and told them it would be alright as we'll protect them. If anything many think the Biden Admin has been way too conservative in sending Ukraine cutting edge weapons and Putin is a bitch when it comes down to it, he's a coward. Diplomacy? He invaded a sovereign democracy and wants to control about 90% of it. The Ukrainians are doing all the dying and only ask for weapons and not troops, unlike our fucking dickhead corrupt "allies" in South Vietnam and Afghanistan. Give in to Putin because he has "nukes" (that might not work all that well I am guessing) and watch China and North Korea start invading everyone. Diplomacy is forged in strength and not weakness and indecisiveness and not going back on your security guarantees...

All noted and thank you. What is your take on America’s involvement in the 2014 Ukrainian elections? And did Obama not say that he didn’t want to aid the Ukraine against Russia because he didn’t want to instill the false sense of belief that they could ever win? What changed that line of thinking from Obama to Biden?
(Not being smug. I genuinely do not know.)

[Rikk]

Bridge... (I tend to say this a lot to certain posters)... You're a good guy and I really like your posts. But you're reading too much right-wing propaganda (I am NOT accusing you of being a MAGA, by the way) and not thinking about the real reasons the right are bitching about Ukraine aid. But, even worse, you are really NOT thinking about the real reason WHY we are helping them...

1) The Republicans' Iraq War has been projected to cost the U.S. $3 trillion dollars(!). This factors in costs of subsequent Iraqi & Syrian operations to counter ISIS, as well as caring for the war's veterans (even taking into account Republican loopholes to screw over said veterans).
2) We've spent about $75 billion on aid to Ukraine for humanitarian, financial and military support. That is approximately 2.5% of what the Republicans' Iraq War cost us.
3) The reasons for #1 (to protect us at home) were not clear then and have now been proved to be based on a complete lie (there were no "Weapons of Mass Destruction," though educated Americans could see that was a lie even then).
4) The reasons for #2 are clear to anyone who is well versed in history and any understanding of modern and 20th-century foreign policy. The threat, this time, is real. Putin is trying to make the first step towards re-building the Soviet Union.
5) A close Putin ally made it clear in January that even though the Ukrainian invasion has not gone according to plan, Poland is their next target. This is not paranoia...not guess-work. This is real. This is a real threat to another NATO ally.
6) Ignorant MAGAs follow Trump's lead in claiming that NATO is about "paying bills," and Trump has openly stated that he resents NATO. This is treason. NATO was formed after WW2 (in 1949) to promote freedom, stability & collective security against threats (in 1949, the USSR).
7) Trump stated last month that any NATO member who does not "keep up with their military economical ratio" will not only not be protected if he's President...he stated that he will "encourage" Russia to invade them. This is, again, treason.
8) Sweden just became a FULL member of NATO just a week ago. Why? Look past the short-sighted worldview of one narcissist. What threat is this notoriously neutral country foreseeing at this point in time for them to join this collective of democratic nations?
9) Putin wants the old Soviet Union to return to its full power...and reach...and size. That's why Poland and other nations are scared shitless. Putin invaded Ukraine without even making an excuse. He just did it. His country is a dictatorship. And he considers us a threat.
10) Putin's old Soviet Union making its comeback includes blatant & evil propaganda. Stalin, greatest mass-murderer of all-time, is now declared by Putin's State as "an effective manager." They once tore down statues. In 2021, 70% of Russians had a "favorable" opinion of him.
11) How will the return of a strong Soviet Union affect the United States? ISN'T THAT OBVIOUS? Not only do we continue the years of terrifying nuclear threat (a repeat of October '62, anyone?), but we'll be back to a FAR MORE expensive Cold War.
12) What was the economic cost of the first Cold War? It's estimated that military expenditures by the US during the Cold War were roughly $9 trillion dollars(!). Also, nearly 100,000 Americans died during the Korean War and the Vietnam Wars alone.
13) We defend Ukraine because it is Putin's first real step (hinted at with Crimea) towards re-building the Soviet empire through unjustified military aggression. Again, he's made it clear that Poland is next...and far from the last.
14) Unlike history's Republican "interventions," we haven't put our own troops on the ground. We've spent a pittance compared to efforts like Iraq or Vietnam.
15) By showing we care & are willing to help, we demonstrate to our allies that we will protect them. THIS is important. It also demonstrates to Putin that we're not pushovers. This USED TO matter to Republicans.
16) QUESTION: Why does Trump continue to placate Putin? Why does he publicly accept Putin's obvious lies over our own U.S. intelligence? Is it just his own business interests? We don't even fully understand his treason.

There's much more. This is one of the biggest issues/discussions of our time. While MAGAs whine about "the border" (and deflect our real threats), the only excuses they can make about Ukraine & Russia is nonsense about "evil Biden" and Ukraine...Hunter Biden...QAnon this, QAnon that... While the academics, political scientists and our own military and our own intelligence SEE the real threat of a Putin comeback of the USSR.

If we leave it up to Trump and his crazies, we'll ignore this threat. If unchecked...if NATO is stripped of its power, influence & unity...if we let Ukraine fall and let Poland be next...and on and on and on...while these adult-children talk about evil immigrants and the border while continuing to ignore the reincarnation of the greatest threat we and our allies spent most of the 20th-century facing...

...then God help us all.

[Rikk]

All noted and thank you. What is your take on America’s involvement in the 2014 Ukrainian elections? And did Obama not say that he didn’t want to aid the Ukraine against Russia because he didn’t want to instill the false sense of belief that they could ever win? What changed that line of thinking from Obama to Biden?
(Not being smug. I genuinely do not know.)

Please provide a quote from Obama stating, "I do not want to aid Ukraine against Russia because I don't want to instill the false sense of belief that they could ever win." I read what you wrote and have spent a nice amount of time searching for a quote that even resembles the remarks to which you are referring.

And I'm happy to be corrected on this...but I will point out, again, that there has been a ton of right-wing misinformation about just what Obama (and Biden) have done when it comes to Ukraine.

Obama did not provide lethal aid to Ukraine during the Crimea invasion...but he did provide a ton of military resources in 2014 and 2015 that were still beneficial. Trump, now talking about insane Ukrainian conspiracies with Biden actually continued some of these programs...and then froze such aid (for disgusting and moronic political reasons) and then unfroze said aid.

But you're claiming that Obama declared that we would not help Ukraine because he didn't want to give them a false sense of belief in their having a chance at victory?

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF MORONIC STATEMENT WOULD THAT BE? Again, I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong if you could find such an open display of complete surrender to Putin from Obama's lips...but I sure haven't found him saying that.

Obama was definitely being...careful...to not make steps towards possibly throwing us into full-blown military conflict with a superpower whose strengths we actually (it now turns out) over-estimated at the time. A lot of analysts have been surprised by how poor Russia's military might has been with their attack on Ukraine of the past two years. Putin has stupidly displayed his military weakness. So many thought he would wipe Ukraine out in a month or two.

And not only have we helped Ukraine hold the bastard back BUT we've managed to do so without putting our own troops on the ground in real conflict.

If Trump were in office, it's possible we would not have helped Ukraine at all. Maybe Putin may have successfully completed his invasion by this point or long before.

It brings to mind another interesting fact in our history that some people would like to forget...
The 1940 Republican ticket was based on the promise that we will "stay out of Europe's war" and that "Hitler is Europe's problem." If Roosevelt had not won re-election, U.S. isolationism would have become a full-blown reality. I can't say for sure if this would have prevented the Japanese from attacking us in December 1941, but the Republicans wanted us to leave Britain to fight alone. If we'd listened to them, maybe Hitler would have wiped Britain off the map.

No matter how much the MAGAs try to let us forget this (or, let's face it, most of them have little understanding of history and probably aren't even aware of this)...the Republicans were happy to let Hitler have his way with Europe. It was a very strong sentiment with many Americans in the late-1930s & early-1940s. If we'd listened to them, who knows how much further Hitler may have gotten?

[DLR Bridge]

Please provide a quote from Obama stating, "I do not want to aid Ukraine against Russia because I don't want to instill the false sense of belief that they could ever win." I read what you wrote and have spent a nice amount of time searching for a quote that even resembles the remarks to which you are referring.

Perhaps I had heard it spoken of rather than said by him. That’s why I did not write it as a direct quote. The closest thing I could find to that particular sentiment is from a response on Quora, not dissimilar from your own.

“The reason Obama declined to give lethal military aid was a judgement call… Giving lethal aid could escalate the conflict and actually achieve the opposite of what the US and Europe was trying to achieve. Ukraine’s Army, Population and economy are all dwarfed by Russia so if the battle intensifies the Ukraine has no chance of winning on their own....”

I appreciate your insights and efforts, Rikk.

[Seshmeister]

2) We've spent about $75 billion on aid to Ukraine for humanitarian, financial and military support. That is approximately 2.5% of what the Republicans' Iraq War cost us.

And crucially NO DEAD AMERICANS

Admittedly the lack of constant IED casualties isn't going to help the US and UK Paralympic teams in the near future like the boost we got from Iraq and Afghanistan...

8) Sweden just became a FULL member of NATO just a week ago. Why? Look past the short-sighted worldview of one narcissist. What threat is this notoriously neutral country foreseeing at this point in time for them to join this collective of democratic nations?

After being neutral for 200 years.

Clearly they think this is some serious shit Putin is up to.

Whatever happened to him health wise during lockdown or maybe he has got long term leader disease but the guy has lost it.

[Nickdfresh]

All noted and thank you. What is your take on America’s involvement in the 2014 Ukrainian elections?

What involvement? What is your take on the multiple poisoning of Ukrainian politicians that did not follow the Kremlin line? The Ukrainians voted unilaterally that they wanted to join the European Union and the cunt puppet propped up by the Russian FSB and SVR refused. What is your take on historical Russian involvement in Ukrainian politics?

And did Obama not say that he didn’t want to aid the Ukraine against Russia because he didn’t want to instill the false sense of belief that they could ever win?

Not a fucking clue what you are talking about here...

What changed that line of thinking from Obama to Biden?
(Not being smug. I genuinely do not know.)

Um, there wasn't so much a change in thinking as not being so afraid to "escalate" as the Russian fail became more apparent. Obama provided nonlethal aid and training only in the Donbas War of 2014-2022. In the Russian War of Aggression and Invasion of the Ukraine it was assumed by idiots in the CIA and Pentagon that Ukraine would fold within 48 hours of a concerted Russian invasion but instead defeated their columns heading towards Kyiv and ultimately inflicted almost unpresented loses on the vastly overrated shit Russian forces.

[ZahZoo]

15) By showing we care & are willing to help, we demonstrate to our allies that we will protect them. THIS is important. It also demonstrates to Putin that we're not pushovers. This USED TO matter to Republicans.
16) QUESTION: Why does Trump continue to placate Putin? Why does he publicly accept Putin's obvious lies over our own U.S. intelligence? Is it just his own business interests? We don't even fully understand his treason.

There's much more. This is one of the biggest issues/discussions of our time. While MAGAs whine about "the border" (and deflect our real threats), the only excuses they can make about Ukraine & Russia is nonsense about "evil Biden" and Ukraine...Hunter Biden...QAnon this, QAnon that... While the academics, political scientists and our own military and our own intelligence SEE the real threat of a Putin comeback of the USSR.

If we leave it up to Trump and his crazies, we'll ignore this threat. If unchecked...if NATO is stripped of its power, influence & unity...if we let Ukraine fall and let Poland be next...and on and on and on...while these adult-children talk about evil immigrants and the border while continuing to ignore the reincarnation of the greatest threat we and our allies spent most of the 20th-century facing...

...then God help us all.

You raised many good points Rikk... a few of my thoughts.

15) This still matters to most Republicans and also a lot of Independents who lean right. Where I see the differences tends to be in age demographics. Younger folks don't seem to feel the same sense of seriousness towards Russia as us older folks. I think it has more to do with growing up in the post-Soviet Union era and not recognizing what a dangerous asshole Putin actually is.

16) Trump's public attitude towards Putin is troubling... I've often wondered if it's just some naive belief that he and Putin share some idiotic rich-guys power club comradery nonsense or if Trump stupidly thinks he can act like buddies with the jackass out of a false sense of confidence that he holds a major power advantage over Putin and Trump is a total fool playing with a very dangerous adversary... leaning toward fool in my brain...

[Rikk]

You raised many good points Rikk... a few of my thoughts.

15) This still matters to most Republicans and also a lot of Independents who lean right. Where I see the differences tends to be in age demographics. Younger folks don't seem to feel the same sense of seriousness towards Russia as us older folks. I think it has more to do with growing up in the post-Soviet Union era and not recognizing what a dangerous asshole Putin actually is.

16) Trump's public attitude towards Putin is troubling... I've often wondered if it's just some naive belief that he and Putin share some idiotic rich-guys power club comradery nonsense or if Trump stupidly thinks he can act like buddies with the jackass out of a false sense of confidence that he holds a major power advantage over Putin and Trump is a total fool playing with a very dangerous adversary... leaning toward fool in my brain...

I hear ya.

But I think it goes deeper. I don't think he just has convinced himself that he has a "bromance" with Putin. I think he has his own selfish reasons for placating Russia (outright saying during a press conference with Putin that he believes Putin over his own intelligence community). Financial...something deeper. Putin clearly sees him as an asset.

And no matter how many asshat MAGAs treat this as just another to overlook ("nothing to see here"), it's massively disturbing. If Obama or Biden had openly criticized our own intelligence and placated a dangerous dictator, the right would have jumped all over him.

The irony is that we can't even convince the right that a return of the Soviet Union, run by a man far more disgusting, unstable and egotistical (than, let's say, Gorbachev or even Kruschev), is something we need to avoid at all costs.

[Catfish]

I love all these libs in this thread swinging from Biden’s nuts because he cleanly read a speech off a teleprompter and didn’t trip as he walked up to it. That’s where we are as a nation. That’s the barometer. That’s considered a win to the libs.

[Kristy]

How are those Trump golden sneakers working out for you, F A T boy?

[Catfish]

How are those Trump golden sneakers working out for you, F A T boy?

Nothing but personal attacks from the asshurt libs in this thread. Falls right in line with the dem playbook under 'Reactions to those with Whom You Disagree.'

What is the 'F A T boy' reference anyway you stupid bitch?